Since deer were killed right next to my house two years in a row, I remember the sleepless nights I had from November until April waiting for the gunshots. They were loud. I remember being afraid to let my dog out at night for fear I would see something I would regret seeing for the rest of my life. I remember seeing the pick up truck speeding towards the park with a man standing in the back aiming his high powered rifle at deer in a park that was used for residents who had no driveways and worked night shift. I remember screaming at a high school student returning to his home at 10 PM, who was riding his bike through the park and wearing a black hoodie during the deer culling. I remember begging for a heads up when Wildlife Services would be in the area and was told that I couldn't get that information. All I wanted to do was leave my home, not stage a protest. I remember lying in bed in my vinyl siding addition hoping that any deer shot, didn't take off towards my house knowing the shooters would continue to shoot. I remember the non English speaking woman who had just moved from her homeland, not knowing how to contact the police and was in tears because it reminded her of her country that was at war. I remember the endless emails I sent to my commissioner and then finally to all the commissioners begging for them to stop the shooting next to my house. I remember crying on the phone to Tom Kelley, only to hear that he was acting on commissioners' orders. I remember hearing the stories of deer gasping for air after being shot. I remember seeing Wildlife Services baiting with rotten apples in the same place where children went sled riding that night. I remember speaking at meeting after meeting saying how the deer culling was unsafe. I remember Susan Morgans asking me, "How many times are you going to say the same thing?" My last time at the microphone was when I presented the accident report of at least seven accidents that Wildlife Services failed to report to President Colby when he asked if there were any accidents. I remember witnessing Dan Miller interrogating Wildlife Services about counting bullets after the Lindendale deer traveled 100 yards and bled to death in the front yard of one of his constituents. I remember how angry I was at the people who could afford landscapers, and yet wanted to use public money to shoot deer next to my house. That was a time I do not want to relive.
I don’t know if we have too many deer or not. But I do know that I see deer often when driving around. I am also concerned that if McNeilly park is developed that there will be more deer without a home. Every time I drive McNeilly I am afraid I am going to hit a deer. I cant imagine what it will be like when we cut down 23 acres of woods that these deer live in. So while I agree that men with riffles shooting deer near our houses is scary, what is the alternative?
ReplyDeleteIn the interest of full disclosure, I hate guns.
ReplyDeleteHowever, in the interest of fairness, in the 7 incidents that are cited only 2 involved personal injury and both of those were injuries to the Wildlife Officer himself/herself for mishandling their firearm . . . and one of those occurred while the Officer (stationed in the Western U.S. Region) was wrangling with a coyote (yes, a coyote) for a blood sample.
Certainly, one accident is too many but I don't want anyone reading the post to think that these 7 incidents were innocent bystanders being shot by suburban deer cullers.
In fact, in the other 5 incidents 3 involved only damage to the Officer's government issued vehicle and the other 2 involved damage to the firearm itself.
Just to be fair . . . .
Dave Franklin
Just to be fair, Wildlife Services lied to Dale Colby two years in a row. They said there were never any accidents in the country. They also said they were sharpshooters and they weren't. Besides the seven cases listed, read how less than 2% surveyed had a drug test. They were also supposed to shoot on the ground and not from the back of a pickup truck. They claimed to use night vision. I saw what they were using - a flashlight. They were unprofessional. If you listen to the podcasts, you will hear Dan Miller say that he will never go back to Wildlife Services. Dave, I never said that innocent bystanders were shot by deer cullers. One shot himself in the foot. Would you be comfortable having someone next to your home shooting who shot through their vehicle doors or floorboards or hurt themselves? Do you think it is a good idea to be shooting in a park that never closes at night? Do you think it is wise to never alert surrounding residents that hunters will be firing guns that can kill animals who weigh more than the average man? Do you think it makes sense to bait where children sled ride? I had asked for orange cones to be placed where deer culling was going to take place. Nope. I asked for signs to be posted since deer couldn't read. Not that either. The shooters would appear out of nowhere - with no warning. It was months of hell.
ReplyDeleteWe haven't developed McNeilly Park yet, and we are identifying hidden costs already. I suggest you read the entire report, Dave. Dan doesn't want any parts of Wildife Services. They lost their credibility, as far as Dan is concerned. And I saw it first hand how they operated.
Elaine
I don't believe my comment was in any way an endorsement of Wildlife Services. In fact, if you read it as such, I'll go on record as saying that we should only hire the best deer cullers in the world with excellent safety records.
ReplyDeleteDave Franklin
And they can shoot next to your house instead of mine.
ReplyDeleteWhile you're at it, kick in the money instead of using public money to protect your hostas. I sure hope you don't want any killing in public parks either.
ReplyDeleteAlso, get the surrounding borders to participate especially since you are so close to Scott Twp. I would hate for you to waste your hard earned money.
Elaine
Elaine, I don't have hostas. At least I don't think I do. The deer eat everything and what they don't get the squirrels do. I'd love to have squirrel culling. The turkeys are pretty cool and they seem pretty harmless. To be honest, I don't really care about the deer eating my plants, but having grandparents that were nearly killed when one jumped through their windshield, I understand why we need to limit the herd. It's not about the hostas.
ReplyDeleteDave Franklin
Since we are all disclosing, I shall go on record as one who likes guns. I grew up in a house full of them. You see, my father was a competition rifle shooter; you know, the kind of thing we teach kids at Mt. Lebanon (or did?). Dad competed in many national events, including the “Holy Grail” of rifle competition – Camp Perry, Ohio. I went with my dad on many occasions to various rifle ranges and matches, and was taught how to shoot and handle firearms of all types - safely. As a result of this upbringing, I happen to be an excellent shot. Having established my credentials, with respect to the deer population I am not in favor of using high-power firearms against them in such a densely populated area as Mt. Lebanon. Even if one factors out Wildlife Services and had the best shooter available, operating in the best of conditions, there are still too many uncontrollable variables, and unknown variables, to make such a practice safe and effective.
ReplyDeleteThe deer problem in Mt. Lebanon is man-made; it seems to me that if there are five square feet of ground in this Municipality somebody wants to put a house on it. That practice continues apace in adjacent communities as well. In the 36 years since my arrival here I've seen bucolic hillsides turned into rows of (ugly) townhouses, and quiet, semi-wooded areas – such as Robb Hollow Road – now lined with “McMansions.” Far from scaring the wildlife away, the forest fauna seem to take delight in seeing what kind of goodies the humans have set out for them.
I am fully aware of the problem caused by our ubiquitous White-Tail Deer population. While I type this the boys are out in my backyard, probably plotting mayhem. I am also aware of their reputation as the most dangerous (non-human) mammal in America, responsible for more human deaths than any other animal you can name. According to Reason Magazine, "The U.S. Department of Transportation estimates that white-tailed deer kill around 130 Americans each year simply by causing car accidents."
But as long as we keep developing open space (ironically, for fewer people - see 2010 Census) in this region the problem is not going to go away, and shooting a few in Mt. Lebanon will not improve matters. (Maybe we could tax them - that might encourage them to leave!)
The deer really aren't the enemy; they are simply acting in character. In the words of that great American philosopher, Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Richard Gideon
As someone said to me today, deer culling is complicated. I don't think it is a matter of limiting the herd. How do the hunters know which deer kill? They all look alike. The ones that remain could be the ones that eat people's flowers or cause car accidents. If they "thin" the herd, it won't be enough, no matter how many are killed. As soon as people see even one deer, they will be complaining that there are deer here in Lebo. As it was pointed out at Monday's meeting, we would need to build large walls around Mt. Lebo, shoot all the deer, and make sure that surrounding communities keep their deer away from here. Let's say we can do all that. Where do we have them shot? In parks where children play? On private property? What about the people who have learned to coexist with nature? Should their tax dollars be used? Maybe people should be charged for deer culling on private property. What about the people who want a turkey culling, or a squirrel culling, or how about those cats? What do we do about the people who don't like cats? Where does it end? All I know is that I was scared out of my mind for two years. Did you have killing going on outside your bedroom window? It isn't pretty.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry I thought I lived 8 miles from a large city. A city that for several decades was the center of manufacturing for the entire world. Did someone suddenly transform us into Wyoming?
ReplyDeleteDave Franklin
Any solutions, Dave?
ReplyDeleteWhen the Kossman property on Castle Shannon Blvd. was cleared out, I started seeing more deer. As Chris pointed out, once we build your fields, the deer will be displaced. Again. So if we have another cull, the remaining deer will have more food. They will rebound and have multiple births. Man is upsetting the balance.
For once, Dave, it would be nice if you answered a question or came up with a solution. Is it OK if shooters are outside your bedroom windows? Would you like to take your kids sled riding where there is blood all over the place?
I think I offered my solution. Use experts to limit the herd every couple years. Do it as needed, do it safely and do it in conjunction with neighboring communities. Of course this is a man made problem - we live in an urban community that also has some patches of forest. But I don't think anyone can convince me that the deer should win out over public safety etc. Again, I'm not suggesting that the deer population should be reduced solely to protect people's flowers (although I can certainly appreciate why some people who invest time and money in that sort of thing feel that way). Instead, I view it as a safety issue. As noted in the report after the last culling, a number of the removed deer showed signs of being involved in collisions with cars. The report from USC showed the same thing. If we do nothing, the number of deer vs. car collisions will presumably increase. Why would we want that?
ReplyDeleteI would also note that over 200 residents signed consents to allow the culling efforts to occur on their property. An unprecedented number according to the report. Obviously many in our community feel there is a need and are willing to allow such activities to occur in their backyards. If you don't want it in yours, that's fine. I respect that. My yard is too small so it's probably a non-issue. I've never suggested that these activities should be performed recklessly or without regard to public safety etc. I hope I have satisfied your quest for an answer from me.
Dave Franklin
I found this interesting too. They're even limiting the herd in Wyoming:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.buffalobulletin.com/news/story-398466.html
Elaine, would you trust a couple officers from the MLPD to do it in a controlled environment like they do in Wyoming? That would certainly save money. Presumably they're well trained and we know they are well armed. Just a thought.
Dave Franklin
Thanks for doing some research and offering a solution. The 200 people who submitted consent contracts were denied because their yards were too small. Also, they were willing to spend our money doing it. I have an exterminator who treats my house quarterly to try to control the rat population here. I pay that out of my own pocket. Yes, Animal Control could do that, but I have had ants and centipedes too. My point is, how many of those residents would have been willing to spend their own money to do that? We have a bigger rat problem in Mt. Lebanon. Secondly, let's consider the amount of DUI's, people talking on cell phones and now illegally texting while driving. As it was pointed out at Monday's budget hearing, the speed limit in Mt. Lebanon is 25-35 mph. If a driver is alert and obeying all laws, how many of those accidents would have been avoided? Finally, you mentioned something key in this whole culling issue. What we do in lil' old Lebo, isn't going to have much effect if something isn't done regionally. There are nonlethal ways to controlling the deer population, but it takes patience and educating the public. Shooting deer doesn't solve anything. It is a temporary, quick fix, and a dangerous one at that.
ReplyDeleteI can't respond to your suggestion to pay our police force to become hunters as a cost savings. With overtime, benefits, etc., I don't think it would be feasible, but again, I am not a numbers person and that is just my gut reaction. Although it would be a safer alternative than hiring Wildlife Services, there is still shooting involved in a densely populated community. The bottom line is, I don't want to be patrolling a park and warning residents about hunters ever again. I certainly don't want any more shooting so close to my home.
One more thing, Dave. I am going to try to look at this as how a commissioner would approach it. I'll put in the deer culling in the budget. What gets eliminated? Elaine
Has anyone looked at archery instead of riffles? I would think an arrow would be safer and the chance of it going through your front door is less. I am not a hunter so I may be way off base. Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteChris, I think that was considered early on, but there was a higher risk of deer running around with arrows in them. I THINK that is what was determined.
ReplyDeleteElaine
A few points here... (and my disclosure is that I have been trained with a rifle and do like to do sport shooting on a regular basis, although I do not hunt).
ReplyDeleteUsing the police may not be the best idea. Police are trained more with pistols and are more trained in tactics of dealing with people. This is not to detract from them, it's just not their area of expertise.
"Noise suppressed" rifles still make a loud noise. The noise is tolerable without hearing protection but it's still loud. This will also be effected by the caliber of rifle they use (you're not going to be able to down a deer with a small caliber rifle most likely).
Elaine, you mentioned a dear making horrible death noises when one was shot right by your house. Along those lines, if they chose a trapping method to get the deer, you would still hear horrible noises as the animal tries to get itself out of the trap.
Chris, you mentioned Bow hunting as a possible method. Bow hunting would have some of the risks as rifle (a bow can penetrate vinyl siding and wallboard). Plus, as mentioned, you'd have to track the deer after it's shot.
Another solution that would be, in my opinion, more risky would be poisoning of deer. Since children tend to frequent parks, using poison would be highly risky. Plus, when the deer eventually dies, you'd have to go and hunt down the carcass (because few things smell as bad as a rotting carcass).
A possible solution, instead of poisoning, would be chemical sterilization of the deer. This article discusses sterilizing black-tailed deer (and it way above my head in chemistry talk) GnRH Single-Injection Immunocontraception of Black-Tailed Deer
No matter what method is used, deer do not care about "property" or "borders" or and of the concerns we have. They were here before we were and will be here after us. They are a fact of life in Western Pennsylvania.
Yes, noise supressed weapons are still very loud. I could hear it with music full blast and the windows closed. There was a house on the next street over from me that had a trap for deer, but the deer wouldn't go in it.
ReplyDeleteI remember hearing the safe neighborhood coalition (I forget their full name)discussing sterilization as an option.
I don't mind having deer in my yard. Yes, Jack, they ARE a fact of life here in Western PA. To spend money on a deer culling would be a waste. It just doesn't work.
Someone sent me this today.
ReplyDelete"Unfortunately, say the experts, there are no silver bullets to reduce the risk. At times and places where deer present a significant risk, avoiding a collision can just come down to common sense -- and cautious driving."
Are deer putting you at risk?
Another comment about the $66,000 figure that was mentioned in the PG... There were hidden costs that were not included. Public Works went to every location the morning after a killing to make sure the place was cleaned up of deer guts. Also, police were notified and were "in the area" during the shootings. We also paid for Wildlife Service's food, lodging, and other travel expenses.
ReplyDeleteI could never track down any donations made to local food banks. When I brought that up, the story was changed to local food banks in their area, not ours.
Another thing about the survey, the count was done over several days. I don't know how they were able to determine which deer were counted already. Deer are always moving. That always confused me.
Also wanted to share an article that was printed in the high school paper about the culling. high school article
Elaine
I watched the 11/14/2011 Commissioner's meeting last night on Public Access where there were quite a few people commenting, rather emotionally, about the deer culling issue.
ReplyDeleteWhat was even more disturbing was Bill Lewis' point that the Township is playing a shell game with the Storm Water fee money already. What's horrifying is that the commissioners seemed perturbed that someone was questioning their new slush fund that they can tap into at will.
With BS like that, it's not wonder we have a problem with deer in Mt Lebanon. Our flowers are probably growing taller and fuller than anywhere else in the region!
Yes, Jack, we have big...shells here in Mt. Lebanon for all the shell games that go on. Lots of fertilizer too.
ReplyDeleteElaine