Just a week before this apology was written, PTA Apologizes to Cannon, the PTA Council president's home was busted for underage drinking. Twelve high school students were arrested. http://pd.mtlebanon.org/blotter/police-blotter-111011-111611.pdf
So how many PTA resignations are in order now? I am counting two, but the numbers seem to grow every day. Karen Morris, Hoover president for circulating an eblast about the school board candidates. Now the Council president for underage drinking in her home.
Just a side note, she was also treasurer for This Way Forward, the Posti/Gardner campaign. Word on the street is that it was Josephine who wrote the nasty email about her brother, but that is just a rumor. We do know that Josephine isn't good about citing her sources.
Not a very good example for our kids. But, hey, I'm not the child advocate or so I have been told.
The Council PTA President circulated a Manipulative Political Email Questionnaire to Board candidates, then told the Hoover PTA President she shouldn't distribute Political email. It looks like the Mount Lebanon City Council PTA President has two faces. One set of rules for Sheryl and another set of rules for Karen!
ReplyDeleteBoth should resign for violation of PTA Rules on Politics.
John Ewing
Please sign your name when you insult me. I would like to publish your comment.
ReplyDeleteElaine
The launching of the PTA’s widespread smear campaign on James Cannon, his committee and write-in candidates made the rounds through the various PTA membership lists. This was AFTER the apparent underage drinking citations at the PTA Council President’s home but just in time for the election. Who do these people think they are? I guess they believe that they are made of Teflon. No wonder PTA membership is dropping, why would anyone want to be associated with this group of bullies? My guess is that their tactics will backfire and in the end the Mt. Lebanon PTA will lose any credibility they had left, if they still had any.
ReplyDeleteWilma Zellers (Married to William Zellers, Mt. Lebanon resident and noted author)
PTA Political Terrorists and Alcoholics Bill Hook
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know how the PTA communicates with all of the members by e-mail? I heard there is a software system that provides membership outreach software and it just so happens that a prominent Mt. Lebanon PTA leader works for the company that provides it. One of my neighbors told me that she had to enter in a good bit of personal information in order to register to get PTA updates. If any of the PTA representatives are reading this perhaps they can confirm or dispute this so the Mt. Lebanon community knows how the PTA's e-mails get around and where the personal data of the members is kept. Also, it may be good to know how the personal data is being used. For example, those who sign up could know whether or not their personal e-mails are being used for a political smear campaign or not.
ReplyDeleteWilma Zellers (devoted wife of William Zellers, Mt. Lebanon resident and noted author)
Wilma, devoted wife of William Zellers, Mt. Lebanon resident and noted author:
ReplyDeleteI understand that email program (JBF) has been dropped. Also, if you are talking about the same person I am thinking about, she is no longer in PTA.
Elaine
Wilma,
ReplyDeleteI would be surprised if these folks didn't have the email addresses of their respective PTA members.
2011-2012 PTA Presidents
Sheryl Cohen-PTA Council
Rachel Meta-Foster Elementary
Karen Morris-Hoover Elementary
Julie Daubner-Howe Elementary
Marjorie Crist- Jefferson Elementary
Debra Cunningham-Lincoln Elementary
Linda Csont-Markham Elementary
Anne Pillion-Washington Elementary
Laura Cowell-Jefferson Middle
Linda Shapiro-Mellon Middle
Ruby Kang-High School PTSA
Something not mentioned here.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't the "T" in PTA stand for Teachers?
One would think they would have the ethical backbone to step up and publically chastise or at least distance themselves from the PTA officer(s) for political rules violations!
Yeah, right!
Giffen Good
"Margaret Barker," I suppose you are the one who said that I was still in middle school. If you would read my post more carefully, you will note that I am not professing to be a child advocate. At least that is what has been told to me by various school board directors. I am not understanding why you are throwing jabs at me. I am not on PTA Council and hosted a party where 12 children were arrested in my home for underage drinking. Is that what it takes to be a child advocate? If so, I was an unfit mother for eight kids. Again, it is about me...
ReplyDeleteElaine
I always enjoy the irony of when the anonymous yet vocal Mr. Good questions someone else's backbone.
ReplyDeleteDave Franklin
Why Mr. Franklin?
ReplyDeleteSo I can be subjected to malicious innuendo and castigation of holier-than-thou members of the PTA... or you?
I've broken no rules Mr. Franklin, unless it is of course asking an anonymous question or bringing up a subject or two to discuss.
Furthermore, you admit you don't know me so then you have no idea of my particaption or role in community matters. I may be your neighbor, a member of the sports association, on the board or a parent with children in the schools.
Is there a MTL requirement that a person's rank or identity should be known before contributing here? Unless of course one must meet a certain pedigree or be a member of the Mt. Lebanon gentry to participate.
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours, Dave. See you on the campus.
Giffen Good
If you want to contribute (and critique) with any sort of credibility, you should do so using your own name in my opinion - especially if you want to accuse others of having no backbone for failing to do the same. If you don't recognize the hypocrisy in that, then I guess I can't help you. A far as whether there is a requirement that one's identity be known in order to participate, I suppose I would say yes. That's why everyone gives their name and address when speaking at a public meeting. As for this blog, a few are permitted to speak anonymously, while most are not. Perhap you should suggest that Elaine apply your philosophy to her blog. She often criticizes people for not using their name - and refuses to post those comments - but she allows yours.
ReplyDeleteDave Franklin
Dave Franklin
Giffen Good has submitted respectful comments. Most of the anonymous comments that I published were submitted by people that I know. A few were from students. I did publish some of the ones who were taking shots at me, but I don't publish all of them. It is my prerogative, Dave.
ReplyDeleteNow go enjoy that turkey.
Elaine
Once again, Dave, you have diverted the attention to me and my readers. Why do you have higher standards of me than you do for PTA Council? Sheryl Cohen, PTA Council President and party giver extraordinaire has sent me emails under an assumed name. What's your point?
ReplyDeleteElaine
My point was with Mr. Good's hypocrisy, not you Elaine. However, most anonymous comments are from commenters who support your positions or obnoxious posters who are immediately rebuffed by you and others. I realize it is your prerogative, and I've never said it isn't. However, to suggest that anonymous campaign emails are different from anonymous blog posts is simply foolish. Again, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteDave Franklin
Mr. Franklin, the evidence is in plain sight as to how certain parties elect to deal with fellow residents that disagree with them.
ReplyDeleteWhy and for what purpose did PTA officers find it necessary to publically ridicule candidates and their families? So far, I've yet to see any PTA letters notifying residents of similar behavior by one of their own.
Why did a school board member find it so necessary to demean one resident's resume and credentials when they were trying to offer qualified assistance on the high school project?
Why should one resident accuse others of trying to hijack the community?
I just find it ironic that a group of professionals that claim to aspire to higher standards and have influence on the development of students should be conveniently deaf, dumb and blind when ethics and civility go out the window.
It is unfortunate that even on a national level there is a lot of attention on "doing the right thing."
And before you respond, I'm aware the door has swung both ways. I personally try to avoid name calling and accept your critique that I may have slipped up. Backbone was probably a poor descriptor, so I ask how would you define the silence?
I ask you Dave, should have the teachers admonished the PTA political letter and its authors? Or is it OK to just let things slide if it serves your own purpose? Was it just not that damn important?
I think for the targets, for the election and future discourse it may have been!
Giffen Good
To be honest, I do not really pay attention to the PTA. I don't mean that in a bad way, I just don't. However, I would note that it appears that the PTA itself quickly issued a public apology for the email. Granted, you can't unring the bell, but at least it is an acknowledgement of wrongdoing. I don't know what role the teachers generally play in the PTA affairs or activities, but I don't recall teachers ever being vocal about school board elections, so it doesn't surprise that they didn't get involved.
ReplyDeleteI also don't understand the fear factor associated with speaking up, by name. I've been vocal and critical about the SB and particularly it's current president. Despite those remarks, my kids continue to do well in school and none of them have been treated poorly. Most recently, I have been critical of Matt Kluck's position on the Rec bond. He hasn't tried to punish me for those public remarks, nor has he ridiculed me. Instead he reached out to me to discuss the issues even further.
Was the previous comment from you, Dave Franklin?
ReplyDeleteYes, sorry for forgetting my name.
ReplyDeleteDave Franklin
Yes, the teachers - at least on the surface - don't appear to play politics, as well they shouldn't. My opinion is they could have
ReplyDeleteat least attempted to "unring the bell" somewhat, they are after all members of the organization.
Nonetheless, that doesn't address the distasteful attack by a resident on their fellow residents - and especially their families - that were volunteering to serve the community.
Disagree certainly, but lets leave personal attacks out of the discussions.
Unfortunately, to shine a light on the whole affair its been necessary to do the same here. Had people just followed rules and exhibited a little bit of common sense we wouldn't need to waste time here. Is it possible to stop the muckraking on all sides and stick to issues and facts?
As for Mr. Kluck, I too have been critical of his positions at times. He has been responsive, mature and respectful. As a matter of fact all the commissioners seem to ascribe to a higher community standard in my opinion, than has the school board.
Maybe that would be a another good poll for Elaine to put up.
Which municipal governing body do you hold in high esteem?
School Board
Commissioners
As for the fear factor. Here's an example and the whole point to this conversation... if my kids break a rule (we certainly seem to have a lot that do make bad judgements according to the police blotter) I'd hate to have them publically rediculed because I did't see eye-to-eye with some PTA mom on government issues.
So thanks for the dialogue Dave
and especially Elaine.
Giffen Good
If that anonymous message was from Dave Franklin, I would like to point out that the “public apology” was only to cover the PTA’s tracks in terms of having breached their policy stating “The organization or members in their official capacities shall not, directly or indirectly, participate or intervene (in any way, including the publishing or distributing of statements) in any political campaign on behalf of, or in opposition to, any candidate for public office, or devote more than an insubstantial part of its activities to attempting to influence legislation by propaganda or otherwise.”
ReplyDeleteThe “apology” in no way addresses the intentional libelous character assassinations on those targeted including my own. So, the “apology” was really not an apology at all. The e-mail spread around the community and beyond by PTA leadership were malicious and libelous, David, so the question is why are you sugarcoating this? Should I assume that you condone such behavior or are you going to plead ignorance this time? If it's ignorance, then it makes no sense that you would defend this action without knowing the facts given your propensity for details.
-Charlotte Stephenson
If Sheryl Cohen, PTA Council President and party giver extraordinaire, and Karen Morris, Hoover PTA President and sender of emails from unknown sources, paid more attention to the academic standing of their elementary school's academic standing than they do to school board politics perhaps Hoover would not have slipped 51 spots in the academic rankings this year.
ReplyDeleteSheryl and Karen, where are your priorities?
"... or devote more than an insubstantial part of its activities to attempting to influence legislation by propaganda or otherwise.”
ReplyDeleteCertainly hope they are abiding by this part of the policy too! Reading Mrs. Posti's blog and considering the close ties to PTA officers MAY hint otherwise.
Giffen Good
Charlotte, I don't condone anything of the sort. In fact, my initial comment and nearly the entire exchange that followed stressed that anonymous smack talk really has no place in our community, especially if you want your voice to matter. Mr. Good then asked me whether I thought the teachers should have done more and I gave my honest response, which similarly did not condone the anonymous email. Finally, I noted that even the PTA's apology could not unring the bell. So, I'm not sure what I'm sugarcoating.
ReplyDeletePerhaps this may clarify my thoughts: if you want to send anonymous emails or blog posts that are hurtful, libelous, malicious or just plain rude, ask yourself this: if your remarks are so important to the public good or are otherwise constructive and worthwhile, why not attach your name to them?
And before someone attacks me from the other side, I will admit that anonymity has long played a part in free speech and political debate in our country - and often times for the good. However, those privacy rights end when the anonymous remarks give way to civil or criminal liability. If the remarks in the email were indeed libelous (a published false statement that is harmful to a person's reputation) the targets of the email have recourse. In my practice, I have learned that the best way to stop anonymous liars is to take them to task for their comments. Until that happens, they will generally be inclined to continue doing what they are doing.
Dave Franklin
Mr. Good,
ReplyDeleteMrs. Posti commented on her blog about the accomplishments of PTA as follows:
•1936-As a result of PTA support, diphtheria testing is carried out in all Mt. Lebanon schools.
•1942- The PTA was a leader in the war effort on the home front through the sale of war bonds and stamps. Mt. Lebanon students purchases $75, 000 of war stamps which provided over 40 jeeps for the army.
•1943- PTA establishes a U.S.O. Canteen service and manages the community registrations for war ration books.
•1951-PTA creates a Civil Defense Committee and trains 800 adults in the community in first aid.
•1952-PTA mounts a campaign to support a $2.5 million school bond issue for major additions to the high school that include classrooms, science labs, modern library, cafeteria, gymnasium, swimming pool and auditorium. The bond issue passed by a 3 to 2 margin.
•1954-PTA Council produces and distributes a brochure listing the candidates for the Mt. Lebanon School Board and their views.
•1955-PTA Council petitions the Township Commissioners and County Commissioner urging them to pave Bower Hill Road so sidewalks can be installed for safe walking."
Notice the last accomplishment was 1955. Mrs Posti wasn't even born in 1955 and she was graduated from MLHS in 1986 - 31 years after PTA's last good deed is cited. Is she hinting PTA has not accomplished anything good during her lifetime?
John Ewing
David, I meant that you are sugarcoating the issue by suggesting that the PTA made an apology. The PTA made no such apology to those who were harmed by the malicious and libelous e-mail circulated by their leadership.
ReplyDeleteThe e-mail does indeed fit your legal definition of libelous so this brings me to two questions. First, how does one track down the author of the libelous email who used a false name and secondly, can those in the PTA who circulated it with the intent to influence the outcome of the Mt. Lebanon School Board election be taken to court for libel? If one files a lawsuit naming the PTA participants will they be obligated to tell the truth? There is speculation regarding who wrote it, but what is the best way to find out that information?
-Charlotte Stephenson
Charlotte, my initial suggestion would be to discuss any potential claim with a lawyer first. Not only do you want to understand the requirements of a libel claim, if you elect to pursue one based on an anonymous email you will ultimately need an attorney to issue a subpoena to recover information from the ISP.
ReplyDeleteIf you're curious about the "how to" aspects, just Google something like "how do I find the sender of an anonymous email". There are plenty of resources online that will give you the technical (not legal) steps to uncover the IP etc.
As for telling the truth, anyone who testifies in a legal proceeding swears to tell the truth . . . whether they do so or not is up to them. Failing to do so, however, could result in additional problems.
In sum, if you're even thinking about it, put emotions aside and get good advice.
Dave Franklin
While I have challenged correspondents to "man-up" and sign their work, I realize that this is Elaine's Blog and as such she has a First Amendment right to publish anonymous and "nom de plume" contributions. Apparently many contributors on opposite sides of any subject raised on this Blog seem to agree. The Federalist Papers were largely published under "nom de plumes," and our founders excelled at "hate speech" from time to time - especially during political campaigns.
ReplyDeleteWhen people put themselves in a position of public trust - such as elected officials, civil servants, or officials of non-partisan 501(c)(3) organizations, just to name a few examples - they must accept the fact that while they hold such positions they are open to public criticism; especially if they do something stupid. Sometimes this criticism gets vicious. And as offensive as "anonymous smack talk" may be, as Harvey Silverglate, a noted First Amendment lawyer, has said, “You’ve got a right to respond with horrible speech if you are attacked with horrible speech. As long as that’s a two-way street, the First Amendment has worked.” (source: Reason Foundation)
Richard Gideon (Une personne de l'authenticité)
Mr. Franklin, before you misdirect the issue being discussed here let me redefine my comments for clarity.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't accusing anyone of libel or slander. Yes, I did state that I found the PTA letter malicious, but I believe I'm entitled to an opinion - apparently others do too.
Back to the point - my issue here was that certain members of the PTA used that organization's name to promote their personal political agenda. You claim, Dave you want people to step up, get involved, put their names out there!
Well, in my opinion, personal attacks under the guise of a worthwhile organization is hardly the way to get them to do so!
I believe also doing so breaks PTA rules prohibiting campaigning for or against candidates in public elections. At least, I've always been under the impression that the PTA is suppose to remain nonpartisan!
If it isn't against the rules - please by all means, Dave enlighten us all!
Otherwise, please refrain from your obscurantism.
Giffen Good
Richard, I have my reasons for using a pen name, one of which is evidenced by the original PTA email discussed here.
ReplyDeleteI respect your opinion, if you believe that I was engaging in "hate speech" I humbly apologize to all who were offended. Hate mongering was never my intent.
The PTA is a worthy, respectable organization that through the hard work of dedicated parents and teachers our district is greatly enhanced.
Giffen Good
First, it seems that more than one person may be using the Giffen Good name,but i did not suggest that anything you said was libelous - just ironic.
ReplyDeleteSecond, if you subscribe to Mr. Gideon's view of the 1st Amendment, you should understand that it does not protect people from lying. Charlotte's comment suggested that the email was libelous (false) so my comments were based on that assumption. Being mean generally isn't actionable. Lying to damage one's reputation is. Also, you should know that most people who successfully sue for libel/defamation collect against the speaker's homeowners policy. So no one should assume they are judgment proof.
Dave Franklin
David,
ReplyDeleteThank you for the information. It's good to know that a subpoena can lead to the answer needed regarding who authored the libelous e-mail. I always thought that tracking e-mails through ISPs was an impossible task. I would hope that PTA leaders would tell the truth under oath when asked.
Charlotte
I had to look up obscurantism. What truth am I attempting to hide? I think I've been as upfront and as clear as I can be. To review, I think bloggers and emailers should use their real names and tortfeasors (whether known or unknown) should be held accountable. Heck, I've even offered advice on how to track down the anonymous. I think you would be hard pressed to argue that I'm trying to hide or protect anything or anyone.
ReplyDeleteDave Franklin
Mr. Good:
ReplyDeleteMy reference to "hate speech" was with respect to America's Founding Fathers, and their propensity to engage in such shenanigans. I won't contest anyone's right to use a "nom de plume" if they so desire, or Elaine's right to publish a comment under such a signature. (My guess is that Elaine knows who you are and is respecting a confidence.) Occasionally, Elaine will publish an anonymous comment in order to provide some context to a debate occurring on her Blog. I have suggested to her that she not do this, as I feel that if a person hasn't the courage to stand up for his opinions then he is little more than a provocateur. However, I certainly would be opposed to any attempt to shut off debate on this Blog on the grounds of viciousness (or anonymity), or to deny Elaine the right to publish what she will. I don't like vicious talk; but once you start restricting the First Amendment rights of others you perforce expose your own to scrutiny. Besides, these things always backfire on the well-intentioned; as the Sedition Act of 1798 and the Sedition Act of 1918 prove. Of course, the right of a person to free speech is not relief from responsibility for what one says.
The great Pennsylvania lawyer and State Supreme Court justice (and unsung Founding Father) Hugh Henry Brackenridge (1749-1816) had some interesting thoughts on this subject, and I'm sure the lawyer contributors to this Blog are well aware of them. Brackinridge wrote "Law Miscellanies" - which was once required reading for aspiring attorneys.
Richard Gideon
I've always understood the definition of obscurantism - "as a deliberate act intended to make something obscure."
ReplyDeleteI may be mistaken, but I feel that sometimes Dave, you use the anonymous objection to deflect attention from the original subject. I wasn't suggesting you were hiding anything, if anything I find our "debates" when they stay on topic, informative, stimulating, enlightening and often your positions persuasive. I find that we do arrive at a common ground occasionally. Here, you may be inferring that the PTA email regarding the candidates was mean (unwarranted?)... if so we're in agreement.
Once again, I wasn't accusing you or anyone of lying! My main issue was that a nonpartisan organization didn't stay - nonpartisan! And when it overstepped its mission it should've taken extreme actions to "unring the bell" especially before an election.
Did the PTA email change the election results, we'll never know. Through aggressive "unringing" a clear message is sent that such action isn't acceptable and should be suspect.
I'll accept your and Richard's point on the signing comments.
If Elaine wishes Gif to go away or if she'd like to poll her readers on my anonymous participation, I'll abide by either outcome. Fair enough?
Giffen Good
P.S.: I just have to ask one more question regarding a point made, Dave. Should those who break PTA (or any organization's) rules be held accountable? And how?
I'm not sure what other "extreme" response the PTA could have offered other than to issue an apology for the actions of its member. What else do you have in mind? I don't control the PTA, so my opinions are more or less irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteBy the same token, this blog is Elaine's and Elaine's alone. No one has the right to tell her how to run it. However, as we've seen from the recent election, it does have the ability to reach a large audience on topics important to the community. As such, I have simply suggested that it be consistent - either anon comments are allowed or their not. You know my preference, but again it's Elaine's call. Anyone of us can start our own blog if we want to create our own rules.
Dave Franklin
Giffen Good, you know that you are always welcome here. You are a gentleman and have never been demoralizing or degrading.
ReplyDeleteElaine
I would like to see at least two resignations in PTA. Karen Morris is one, but I believe the bigger problem comes from the president of the PTA Council, Sheryl Cohen. She knows why I think she should resign. And yes, I still think Josephine Posti needs to resign. She knows why. The reasons keep piling on.
ReplyDeleteElaine
Oops, I forgot to answer the question. Sure, members of the PTA or any organization who break the organization's rules should be accountable. The consequences should be commensurate with the nature of the offense, the role/mission of the organization and the member's overall contributions to the cause. I don't always subscribe to the theory of throwing the baby out with the bath water.
ReplyDeleteUltimately, the responsibilities for policing and enforcement are up to the group itself and not necessarily outsiders. The outsiders, however, are entitled to judge the group by how it responds to the conduct of its members.
I'm done.
Dave Franklin
Maybe a time out would be appropriate for PTA rules infractions???
ReplyDeleteWith that I'm done for a while, maybe forever.
Thanks for the welcome mat ELaine.
Giffen Good
Take a break, Giffen. You will want to be in good shape for December 14, the bid opening. That is when the you-know-what will hit the fan.
ReplyDeleteElaine