Kelly Fraasch updated her blog to include her updated recreation proposal which she presented last night. As before, she has provided a link to her revised proposal. http://www.kellyfraasch.com/2012/08/15/updates-on-recreation-proposal/
Kelly's initial proposal included lights at Middle and Wildcat Fields. I understand that Dave Franklin felt that lights were not necessary. So Kelly removed them from her revised proposal. My gut feeling is that YSA didn't want to fork over the money that they proposed in their turf presentation. Isn't that just like them to offer something and then not deliver? Want to read Dave's slant on this? Read his blog at http://lebofields.blogspot.com/2012/08/robb-hollow_14.html#comment-form I just love to promote Dave's blog. He can never say that I don't present both sides. Haven't seen him do that for my blog.
At last night's commission meeting, I had to get something off my chest. On Monday evening, I attended Carnegie's skate park public hearing. I recorded it and emailed it to the commissioners. As I said in Citizens Comments, I hope that the commissioners take the time to listen to it. I may post it here, but have to switch computers to do that, if anyone is interested in listening to it. What a difference there is between the two communities. Carnegie has a mayor and six councilmen and women. We, of course, have a manager and five commissioners. Carnegie doesn't have a swimming pool, ice rink, golf course, and their best field is no better than our worst field. Yet, I heard nothing but excitement from these folks. Not Larry "I'm excited" excitement, but honest to goodness excitement. They take pride in their community. They spoke of fundraising. Carnegie had proposed a smaller skatepark for their kids, but the residents were thrilled to find out that a larger, nicer skatepark could possibly be built in Carnegie. I heard words like, "We're so lucky to have this opportunity" and "Thank you." It was refreshing. Here in Mt. Lebanon, we get empty promises, demands for artificial turf, entitlement, arrogance, and have grown men acting like spoiled brats. It isn't all about field sports. I think the YSA people have a lesson to learn here.
Elaine, you hit the nail on the head with this one. Kudos to you for recognizing a special place!
ReplyDeleteCarnegie deserves this skate park, not only because it will be most appreciated there, but because Carnegie Park is the best site. Not only does it have the most available land, it also has the best access/parking and is very visible from busy Forsythe Road.
11:40 PM, don't get me wrong. My son and the rest of the skateboarders in Mt. Lebanon would be thrilled to have a skatepark here in Lebo. I just can't stand the arrogance of some people here when it comes to sports. Not all kids are into field sports, which may come as a shock to them. Likewise, not all kids are into extreme sports. I recognize that. I just wish others would stop acting like spoiled brats. If the skatepark goes to Carnegie or Scott, then so be it. But it is not going to be the end of the world if it doesn't come here.
ReplyDeleteElaine
Elaine---As you know, the skate park will be open to everyone wherever it ends up. My personal view is that it will be much easier to get into---as well as out of---in a park that is less more open and bigger than Mt. Lebanon's or Scott's.
ReplyDeleteElaine - exactly how many direct conversations have you had with the "spoiled brats" regarding skateboarding or extreme sports. You have clearly become blinded by your insecurities on this topic as you are inferring, with no real evidence, that the big, bad tough guy football players have no use for sports like skateboarding or BMX. News flash - times have changed. The days of the guys in letterman's jackets owning the hallway are as over as the 80's and it's now clear that you may have been adversely affected by some of those groups in high school.
ReplyDeleteGee, where were you for all the rec meetings we had? Oh, maybe you were one of the ones speaking about artificial turf.
ReplyDeleteActually, I haven't had any conversations with the spoiled brats. I just get daggers from them at meetings. All except Dave Franklin. He never makes eye contact with me.
Are the spoiled brats capable of having conversations? I hear they just yell at you in coffee shops.
Elaine
Elaine - this blog makes you vulnerable to daggers, is that shocking? You can't put yourself and your opinions out there this much and then complain when people throw daggers at you. QUESTION: Would you support an effort to build a skate park in Mt. Lebanon?
ReplyDelete9:02, first they'd have to change the law to make it legal to skate to the stake park.
ReplyDeleteDon't get caught feeding the deer whilst skating!
To 8:31 AM: If the jocks no longer own the halls, why is our school district spending all this money on a high school project that is largely about athletic facilities?
ReplyDeleteI am not complaining, 9:02. I think it is funny. They can't even look me in the eye.
ReplyDeleteI would like to answer your question, 9:02. I have been quite supportive in building a skatepark here. You obviously don't listen or watch the meetings. And 10:13, skateboard ordinances is listed for a future meeting.
Elaine
i fully support skateboarding and, if the supporters could find a place and get it passed, building a skate park in Mt. Lebanon. But, I find it contradictory that you support a skate park and all the costs and injuries that come with it while slamming the turf proponents for some of the same reasons. That's not to say I'm pro turf, only that you seem to have the same objective as the parents you slam, i.e. somehow make this town better for your children.
ReplyDeleteYou are showing your ignorance. And I mean that it the nicest way. Mary Pitcher is looking for a location for a skatepark, to build in memory of her two sons. She has found donors to build this at virtually no expense to the community. She has found one donor to pay 60% of the cost. There have been fundraising events to cover the balance. That is the difference between the turf people and the skateboard people, thank you very much.
ReplyDeleteElaine
Did you see anything mentioned in any proposal for a skatepark? That's right, because there isn't.
ReplyDeleteElaine
Anon, that is the core of the artificial debate. No one went to the Commissioners and said, "we want to build a field with turf and we plan to pay for 80%-100% of it." The advocates went in with guns blazing and demands for a luxury item that not even they can put a $1000 security deposit on.
ReplyDeleteGoing back to the topic. I talked with a bunch of field folks (not the typical big mouths) last night about the plan and they are surprised and excited about Robb Hollow. They were impressed with the consideration of additional maint needed. Some of these grateful folks will hopefully send emails to the Commission.
Once Robb Hollow ends up being the Commissioner's "game plan" they can begin fundraising and gathering finanical support from private sources to keep the financing down.
ReplyDeleteI think that was the best part of Kelly's plan. We need to maximize on private/public partnerships.
Hey sports groups get on board and quit holding up the progress-it's for the kids.
Skateboarding aside, this thread indirectly addresses a larger point: If the object of our local field sports groups is to provide venues and instruction to Mt. Lebanon's under 18 group as a way of teaching sportsmanship and life lessons (and this is what the various field sports organizations allude to on their IRS 990's), why do the fields upon which those sports are played have to necessarily be sited in Mt. Lebanon? Isn't the "game" the "thing," and not where it is played?
ReplyDeleteOf course the choice of playing fields is largely driven by population density. Here are some comparisons (people per square mile - 2010 Census):
Scott Township - 4,300/Sq. Mile
USC - 1,962/Sq. Mile
Collier Township - 500/Sq. Mile
Mt. Lebanon Municipality - 5,468/Sq. Mile
All intelligent people agree that the space available in Mt. Lebanon for field sports is limited. Yet we have seen proposals requiring public funding ranging from a sports complex at McNeally Park, artificial turf for Wildcat/Middle fields, creating new field space at Robb Hollow Park, etc.; all with the plea that we have more kids playing more types of sports, and we need more playing time and/or fields within the boundary of Mt. Lebanon. These proposals also share a common mantra; that local property values will increase if they are implemented. I say "mantra" despite the fact that 1)no studies are ever adduced to prove this point, and 2)even as august a body as the National Park Service says that while a park may indeed increase property values in its immediate vicinity, the nature of the park has a lot to do with it. The NPS commends "natural" parks, with walking trails and perhaps some limited sports fields, as positive influences on property values in the immediate vicinity of the park; but "nuisance" parks - those having traffic problems, loud activities that extend well into the night, concession stands, litter, etc. - having negative affects on property values. Ask the people who live along Cedar Blvd. how they feel about certain "parks."
But the sports groups are neither stupid nor evil. They are collectivists ("the greatest good for the greatest number"), and they believe that what they are doing is for the "greater good." They recognize that if you can get the public to pay for new or upgraded venues their overall financial "contribution" will be relatively small. It also relieves them of the responsibility, as private non-profits, for providing these facilities themselves. In other words, they hedge their bets. If they were to find suitable land and build their own facilities they gamble that the number of kids coming up through the ranks will be sufficient to keep their enterprise going. However, if they guess wrong, and the number of kids in the queue begins to dwindle, they would be stuck with land and facilities they can't afford. But if the Municipality does all the heavy financial lifting, on land belonging to the public, should they guess wrong they will limit their losses; and if they guess correctly they can then renew their plea for more space and/or playing time. It is brilliant, collectivist economics, and you have to give them credit where credit is due.
My personal opinion is that the Municipality should lease the various publicly owned field sports venues to the collective sports groups, with the stipulation that they upgrade and maintain the land (user pays - user benefits), and concentrate on using the public purse for the larger purposes of municipal government; to insure public safety, and to maintain the infrastructure.
12:47 PM, it is the "typical big mouths" who are giving the rest a bad name. I am glad to hear that there are some grateful people out there who appreciate what Kelly has put together. It makes sense to me and I will be emailing the commissioners to let them know. I hope the rest of the commissioners see the value in Kelly's plan.
ReplyDeleteElaine
My ignorance is noted and accepted. So I'm assuming there will be a skate park or should be @ some point?
ReplyDeleteRichard Gideon - great points and I appreciate your delivery and viewpoint and I generally agree with them, well said.
No, there are no plans to have a skate park in Mt. Lebanon, unless Mary Pitcher chooses Mt. Lebanon over Carnegie or Scott for Pitcher Park Memorial Skatepark.
ReplyDeleteElaine
Is there a difference between advocating for money to be spent on fields vs. the pool? I'd guess that more of our families use the fields than the pool, and I don't think the pool revenues even come close to covering the operating costs. So overall, the pool (which is probably largely used by younger residents) is a much bigger drain on our collective wallets than the fields, even though it used less. Why aren't the folks who have requested a zero entry pool demonized in the same way as the field advocates? Is it simply because they don't come to meetings and publicly advocate for their special interest? Are the swimmers going to be asked to pay may more to cover both the current operating shortage and the new investment? What's the difference?
ReplyDelete"Dave Franklin felt that lights were not necessary." Really? I count myself as one of the many who realize that none of this is necessary!
ReplyDelete@Anon 2:28
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, people shouldn't just pull generalizations like that out of the air.
Yes, the pool MORE than covers its operating costs. It is a profit source for the municipality.
Fixing it up with allow us to maintain the pool at a level that still brings in positive cash flow.
The Golf course makes money and the Hockey Rink makes money.
The common theme in this plan was the investment in those resources that bring revenue to the municipality. Some of the investments (like food/beverage service at the golf course) were made to enhance those revenue streams even more.
What sports cover the debt service on bond issues in addition to the operating costs?
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