Citizens have expressed their concerns; supporting their statements with facts. Ms. Linfante would dismiss their statements with, “That’s your opinion.” I have been alerting the commission to the dangers of deer culling since 2006. I have tried to verify the statements made in Ms. Linfante’s presentation and presented my findings only to have the minutes from the October 22, 2012 meeting show that I don’t “believe stories about a serious deer and vehicle accident in Upper St. Clair.” http://mtlebanon.org/archives/31/Minutes%2010-22-12.pdf
I have tried to document serious safety issues concerning the deer cullings in the past only to be interrupted, humiliated, and dismissed by Ms. Linfante at previous meetings. Others have shared the same experience. We have been presenting serious safety issues concerning a deer cull, yet Ms. Linfante cites unsupported “serious safety issues” to have a deer culling in the small parks and private property of Mt. Lebanon. Ms. Linfante continues to use Upper St. Clair as a prime example of a successful deer management program. She fails to consider that any USC cullings have been done in large, open areas and not in close proximity to people’s homes.
Kristen, you reiterate your feelings about car accidents and how a deer culling will reduce the chances. Are you aware that the last two cullings did not include bucks to be culled? Are does to blame for car accidents only? How many of those deer/vehicle collisions involved residents who were texting, DUI, or were otherwise distracted? What precautions can I take when you allow shooting high powered weapons in our neighborhoods? Must I spend my nights in my basement half the year, in order to feel safe? Or am I forced to put my house on the market and take what I can get because of my close proximity to a neighborhood park?
In case you haven’t noticed, Kristen, I have not been able to attend deer management meetings. I have left during meetings when the subject of deer culling has come up. It has taken everything I have, not burst into tears at meetings when you sit and express how uncomfortable you are at the sight of a gun shell. Yet you have no problem putting others and me at risk IN OUR OWN HOMES for a deer culling. This will not be a one time event. Since you like to use Upper St. Clair as an example, let me say that they have been involved in deer management since 1997. That is fifteen years and counting. The Mt. Lebanon budget will be approved to spend $12,000 on a deer survey in 2013, with the possibility of spending another $51,000 plus expenses for 2014. Your plan will cost us $63,000 plus expenses for a minimum of fifteen years, to a tune of close to a million dollars. In addition, what are we getting for that? A false sense of safety for some, a real danger for others, and once again, Kristen, you are pitting neighbor against neighbor.
The nightmares have started again. The flashbacks are returning. My future is bleak. So what are my options, Kristen? Live in my basement or sell my house? I cannot spend another night not feeling safe in my own house. My destiny is in your hands. Thanks a lot.
Update: Here is Kristen Linfante's response, sent at 12:33 PM today.
Dear Ms. Gillen,
I will answer the questions you posed to me.
1. Surely, if someone were harmed or killed during a culling I would
feel an enormous sense of responsibility. However, it is my job to
weigh the pros and cons of controlling deer population or not.
Statistically speaking, the risk of being harmed or killed in a cull
is much less than the risk of being harmed or killed in a
deer/vehicular/human incident. It is my job to try to keep our
community safe. There are never guarantees in life. However,
statistically speaking, culling with guns is safer than culling with
cars.
2. Generally speaking, culling typically involves culling females
since they are the ones that give birth to more deer. If one buck is
killed, that accounts for one deer. Period. If one doe is killed, it
accounts not only for that doe, but for all future births she may have
had. Therefore, killing does aids in reducing future populations.
3. No, does are not to blame for car accidents only. See #2 for an
explanation about why does are targeted in culls.
4. I cannot answer your question regarding texting, DUI, etc.
However, I can assure you that since both texting and DUI are both
illegal, our police are actively enforcing those laws. If you have
concerns about law enforcement, I suggest you contact MLPD. By the
way, a few weeks ago, one of our own police officers hit a deer in one
of our police cruisers. I can assure you that they were not texting,
DUI, or otherwise distracted.
5. Only you can answer the question about what is going to make you
feel safe. If it is living in your basement, then so be it. If it is
moving, then so be it. Those choices and decisions are your own. We
live in a democratic society, and we are a free society. Each
individual has his/her own comfort level in life.
6. Nobody is forcing you to put your house on the market. Again, your
choices are your own.
7. This is a clarification. I have never expressed discomfort in Mr.
Hoon bringing bullets to meetings. A resident contacted us and
expressed concern, but I have not myself. In addition, I did clarify
last week that our Chief of Police did volunteer to me that the
bullets Mr. Hoon brings, are NOT, in fact, the type of bullets used in
culls.
8. Your comment about cost is only a guess at best. We are in
complete control of how we cull, with what firm, when, for how long in
any season, and at what cost depending on our budget. Yes, costs
would be reoccurring. The benefit would be a safer community with
fewer vehicular accidents, deer/human/pet conflicts, etc.
9. You asked what your options are. Ms. Gillen, we all have options.
Your destiny is not in my hands. We are each responsible for our own
lives, destiny and happiness. Every human being is faced with choices
every day. I am proud and grateful to live in a country where freedom
exists.
In closing, I reiterate that I represent this entire community. I
receive far more pleas to cull than I do about people having
nightmares and me taking over their free-will. In the end, after
weighing all information, it is my job to make choices that are best
for the community (regarding deer and a whole host of other issues).
I understand that I will not always have the support of every member
of the community. I am ok with that. I am not trying to win praise or
friends. I am trying to be true to my beliefs, and make the tough
choices that I have been entrusted by my community to make.
Regards,
Kristen Linfante
Commissioner, Ward 3
Two things. One, when you have time, Google PA's Castle Doctrine. Second, if someone gets hurt as a result of Linafante's insistence on shooting wild animals in a suburban setting, though she might try to invoke municipal protection due to her office, it would take a good five or ten seconds to find an attorney to go after her personally. And maybe you can get the MLPD to chime in, Elaine, but if we're going to have rednecks popping off 308 rounds in town, is that an open exemption to anyone? In other words, if we're going to cull deer, am I now allowed, if I see a buck in my backyard, to open up on semi-auto with my M4?
ReplyDelete8Hey if they are going to be shooting at deer in the woods at Bird Park they need to be very careful teenagers are drinking beer in those woods after dark.
ReplyDeleteNo, the cull would be controlled 11:57. you would not be able to shoot the buck in your yard.
ReplyDeleteTwo: there are a lot of 'ifs" in your response, a controlled cull would be safe and efficient.
No, I am not your commissioner. My large dog was injured by a deer in my back yard. I would welcome a controlled cull.
12:44 PM, would you mind signing your name? Kristen can contact you about shooting deer in your yard, not next to my house.
ReplyDeleteI love how people are all for a cull, but just where do you suggest it should take place? Should we use the same parameters that USC uses? If so, that place does not exist in Mt. Lebanon.
Elaine
Statistically speaking, Mrs. Linfante, where is your evidence concerning risks?
ReplyDeleteHey odds makers - are the odds of a car hitting a person (child or adult) walking along either side of Washington Rd. over the entire N to S length any greater or less than a person walking or driving being hit by or hitting a deer anywhere in LeboLand 24/7/365 ?
ReplyDeleteIf equal to or greater than, should we arrest all speeding cars and drivers texting ? If so and we're not, explain why not.
12:44 you need to get a bigger/better dog.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.louisianafolklife.org/LT/Articles_Essays/creole_art_deer_hunt_dogs.html
This could become the latest sport to join the ever-expanding list of Mt. Lebanon recreational activities. Hell, our previous commissioners had the foresight to purchase the thickets and woods (Twin Hills & McNeilly) for it.
I can see it now, $150 registration fees, fund raising events, t shirt sales and of course the MTL mandatory tailgate cocktail pre-game get-together.
1:12 Can you really see it? you are living in an altered reality.
ReplyDeleteThe cull can take place in my backyard, i don't care. There is a herd of about 12 there in the woods. It would be safe and easy.
Of course there will be the opportunity to sell naming rights to McNeilly Park to Skoal or Copenhagen.
ReplyDelete1:16 PM, it is very easy to say that anonymously. Why won't you come forward with your name and/or address? Or is it the pitting neighbor vs. neighbor thing I mentioned? Linfante has divided this community once again. Just like before with the high school renovation; unfairly, without facts, and by ramming her personal agenda down our throats.
ReplyDeleteElaine
Furthermore, Friend, what services would you like to see cut to pay for a culling? Or are you willing to pay it out of your own pocket?
ReplyDeleteI don't see how killing deer next to my house would have prevented car accidents on Connor Road, Bower Hill Road, or deer crashing through windows on Castle Shannon Blvd. I am faced with moving or allowing my taxes to terrorize me in my own home. What a wonderful dilemma Kristen has put me in. It is not a democratic society, Kristen.
Elaine
1:16 seriously, you actually took that comment seriously enough to ask me if I can really see it?
ReplyDeleteWhen a true genius appears [or perhaps today - an honest media outlet], you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
Jonathan Swift
Elaine, I'd be willing to bet that many of the same people that found having a rifle team and shooting range in the high school inappropriate are the very same people arguing for hunters with high powered rifles shooting in our parks and woods.
ReplyDeleteIn other words, it's OK to cut a few thousand per year from the school budget because they don't like it, but it is OK to add $50,000 or so to protect their landscaping and pooch.
Didn't we cull just a few years ago? So, is this going to be an ongoing expense every few years?
1:16 a question- how big is your backyard? You don't have to tell us your name or address.
ReplyDeleteThen tell me how close are your neighbors?
I'm betting at best you don't have much more than 50 yards separating you from your neighbors. At that range and the hunters would need to verify this the bullet used in these bulls could very easily pass through the deer with enough velocity to cause substantial injury or damage.
So while your happy, it's apparent you have little concern for your neighbors.
2:34 PM, I can't respond to your rifle team comment, but I can tell you this. I have been a supporter of the Garden Tour since its inception. We never missed a year. The loudest supporters of a cull have all had their gardens on the tour. Little did I realize that it will be this group that ultimately drives me out of Mt. Lebanon. I'll be Goddam to sleep in the basement for six months out of the year just to feel safe in my own home. Kristen, what will make me feel safe is that there is no shooting close to my house. And that, dear Kristen, is entirely up to you and the rest of the commission. As I said, my destiny is in your hands.
ReplyDeleteElaine
On a search for "will a .308 bullet pass thru a deer this answer came up:
ReplyDelete"Yes. Almost any marksman's rifle that is currently used in military service can shoot through two people. The reason for that if bullet size and powder load. A bullet like the .308 or the .50 will easily go through multiple people, if not walls and certain vehicles"
Another answer that referred to the .30-06 round referred to an instance where the bullet broke the rib cage of one deer continued on and hit a second deer breaking it's far side rib and killing it too.
No mention of the ranges though.
I hear this will be de regeur for all the well-heeled Mt. Lebanon family members next year.
ReplyDeletehttp://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTBXBPGzF28ypXMqDHTVM329L7EmAJBbq-sRsH3u_L6b8MfUg-d
Elaine,
ReplyDeleteI've commented on this before, apparently to no avail. Let me see if I can make this clear: the people who decide things like a rifle-based deer cull in a dense urban environment are typically people who A--otherwise oppose guns and B--have zero experience and/or knowledge of muzzle range, velocity or lethality of the ammunition being used.
There are few areas in our municipality expansive enough for someone like me, who does have experience with a variety of weapons, to feel comfortable enough to even consider discharging a firearm much less sighting in a target and shooting. In my opinion, it will take one errant round ending up in someone's living room wall or in a child walking home from school for the message to sink in. Once a round leaves the barrel, you can't get it back. Even the best shooters sometimes make mistakes. That's a fact, not hyperbole. For someone to say this will be "controlled" is pure folly. You can lay down whatever rules you like and try to "control" the shooters but one can never account for human error. Ever. Might it make sense for someone to bring the commission to a firing range and show them exactly what's involved before we risk the safety of residents? If the commission would be open to the idea, I would gladly try to arrange it or assist someone who could.
My back yard is large, my neighbors are close. I could walk up to a deer and shoot it point blank. I was on the rifle team in high school. I am a sharpshooter. Haven't shot a gun in years, don't know how my glasses would effect my aim. I don't care that there is not a shooting range in the high school The deer are in the woods, behind my house. The neighbors would not be in danger. I don't have a garden. I do have a dog with a herding instinct. He had been kicked by a deer.
ReplyDeleteIs this enough?
Hey Kristen - did you miss that day in health class when the teacher explained how it takes two to have babies?
ReplyDelete2. If one buck is killed, that accounts for one deer. Period. If one doe is killed, it accounts not only for that doe, but for all future births she may have
had. Therefore, killing does aids in reducing future populations.
Killing bucks aids in reducing future populations. Killing bucks = less collisions
It's never enough unless you shoot them all, Kristen. And that will never happen.
ReplyDeleteElaine
I know this is a pretty emotional subject for quite a few people. I personally have 2 deer (a doe and her fawn) that hang out in my back yard and drink out of my neighbor's algae-water filled baby pool every day. I have no fancy landscaping but I wish they'd eat the English Ivy that has infested my back yard and leave less feces in my grass. I see families of deer almost every morning as I drive to take my son to daycare at 6am, some almost causing crashes. I have no safe solution to the problem besides being careful myself. I consider myself neither pro nor anti-cull. This township has so many other problems, I think spending any time on the subject is a wasted opportunity to try to fix the real issues.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Mr Cannon that there's not really a location in Mt Lebanon I would consider "safe" to discharge a rifle (not even the eyesore of an empty property where Mt Lebanon Blvd hits Castle Shannon Blvd). Houses are too densely packed together. Nobody's perfect with a rifle and a mistake could be too costly. (I should add, I am not anti-gun. I enjoy rifle target shooting quite a bit.)
That being said, I do not know why they don't do the hunt with bow hunters. A bow hunter tends to setup a tree stand and shoot downward at the deer when they walk close. The range of arrows is much shorter and they won't penetrate a brick wall.
It is clear that the commission has never heard the saying "There's a lawyer attached to every bullet." With the preponderance of lawyers in the Mt Lebanon area, I have to seriously question who's giving the commissioner's guidance on this issue. The risks are extraordinarily high and the commission is opening themselves up to an costly lawsuit if things go bad. Just because USC does something, doesn't mean Mt Lebanon needs to be doing the same thing. USC has more land than Mt Lebanon and 2/3's the population.
Elaine, if you want to keep the hunters away from your house, just play a radio on your back porch. Deer are pretty much afraid of noise and won't come around if they hear it. A hunter usually won't shoot if they don't see anything.
4:35 maybe instead of hiring outside sharpshooters , you'd like to offer your expert services.
ReplyDeleteI'll be damned if I can figure out how you can fire into woods and guarantee the placement of every shot. I can remember reading reports from the Vietnam era of soilders complaining of M16 rounds deflecting off jungle foliage. I suspect a branch or twig might have the same affect here.
You must be pretty darn good though as you claim you can "walk up to a deer and shoot it point blank."
Jack, you've seen the park next to my house. That is where they baited with rotten apples. The kids go sled riding there, day and night. The deer are shot right there or by the playground equipment, next to the path. Thanks for the suggestion, but playing a radio will not keep the deer or the hunters away. There is lots of noise in the park from the kids playing.
ReplyDeleteIf you hear or watch the latest commission meeting, you will hear a woman who saw a deer with an arrow stuck in it in her yard for a couple of days. I am not sure that is something kids should be seeing.
The bottom line is, Mt. Lebanon is densely populated. The 2010 census shows that we have 33,137 people living in six square miles. In 2000, we had 2328.7 houses per square mile. What would it be for 2010? I was transfixed by the 1972 high school project and can't do the math.
In 2010, Upper St. Clair had a population of 19,229 living in 9.8 square miles with 726.9 houses per square mile.
I have family living in Upper St. Clair and they have never heard gunshots or had hunters running around in their neighborhood.
Elaine
I like Mr. Cannon's suggestion except I'd love to see a live demonstration of a deer kill for the commissioners and proponents of a cull.
ReplyDeleteTrap one these deer, confine it and let one of these sharpshooters "call his shot" at his/her maximum acceptable safe range.
If Ms. Linfante and friends can stomach it and the shooter can thread the needle sort of speak, then maybe the cull can proceed.
Personally, I don't think firing guns in MTL is a good idea. Want to cut down on deer accidents, slow down, stay off the cell phone and be alert. It's a lot cheaper. The proliferation of speed bumps here suggest the above is a good idea anyway.
The people Kristen hears from are the ones that agree with her. Not many who disagree with her would be sending emails to her trying to sway her.
ReplyDeleteAttendance at the meeting for and against culling seems to always favor those against...but of course Kristen would never could those.
I like the deer. It makes Mt. Lebanon (and much of Western PA) unique. We have wildlife. Squirrels, deer, wild turkeys, they all live in our yards and open spaces. That's cool.
The isolated incidents of deer harming humans or other animals are unfortunate. But it is part of living in Western PA. You will never eliminate all the deer. How many other things that occasionally harm humans and animals do we decide to try to end altogether?
Why not simply have a deer cull with bow hunters? This would eliminate any gunshot noise and create a safer scenario for the community.
ReplyDelete"An additional disadvantage, particularly on small parcels, is that even deer that are mortally wounded with an arrow can travel 100 yards or more before succumb- ing. In developed areas, this could result in fatally struck deer dying on adjacent properties."
ReplyDeleteNot so good.
I find it absolutely hilarious that Kristen just can't control herself.
ReplyDeleteElaine is clearly emotional about this issue, perhaps more than most. I get it, she lived it and saw it and I can't blame her for feeling the way she does.
But Kristen just can't keep her mouth closed and needs to go off and nit-pick every point of every one of the emails.
Kristen, for future reference, your answer to these emails should be, "Elaine, my apologies but it seems we don't see eye to eye on these issues. Please feel free to continue to express your opinions to the other commissioners the same way I am. In the end, we all want a better Mt. Lebanon, we just tend to disagree on how to get there.".
Done.
10:50 I find that it is absolutly hilarious that no matter how Ms. Linfante responds you wouldn't like it. It's not at all that she "just can't control herself".
ReplyDeleteI lived it, I had sharpshooters in my backyard, I saw it and I would welcome them back to finish the job. Can you blame me for feeling the way I do??
Oh.... and by the way, will you dictate to me how my future emails should read?
Done
I don't think Kristen has a cooperating or compassionate bone in her body. If you read her responses, I think she views compromise as a weakness. She says that she is not in this to make friends or win praise. She has said that on more than one occasion. Is she alluding to Kelly? Kelly took a controversial topic such as recreation and met with groups or individuals and listened. Dan Miller did the same thing. What is Kristen's opinion? "If we want to spend $30,000 or $30 million, we will." Dan Miller isn't commissioner anymore, so we are doing it her way.
ReplyDeleteSomeone sent me a link to a deer management document called, "Managing White-Tailed Deer in Suburban Environments." On page 13 of 56,
Suburban areas, by definition, contain relatively high densities of people. Frequently they also contain local- ly overabundant wildlife populations that create wildlife-human conflicts. Deer-human “problems” are socially defined and vary among different stakeholder groups (Decker and Gavin 1987). Public attitudes regarding deer problems differ according to personal beliefs (Purdy and Decker 1989, Curtis et al. 1997) and may vary depending on whether stakeholders hold individual animal or population-level perspec- tives.
Most people enjoy viewing deer, and seldom do communities want to entirely eliminate a local herd. Tolerances for deer, however, are quite variable depending on personal preferences, past experiences, ones’ ecological perspective, and land-use priorities (Decker and Purdy 1988, Loker et al. 1999). Differing public views complicate decision making and establishment of deer management goals. In some cases, it may not be possible to achieve community consensus for a single deer management approach. Action may still be required, however, to reduce deer- related conflicts, and the best outcome may be to achieve consent for management from key stakeholder groups (Curtis and Hauber 1997).
http://www.ci.carrboro.nc.us/pd/PDFs/suburbandeer.pdf
So how does Kristen respond in emails and at meetings? She has to reiterate her views to her viewing public over and over. Has she asked the multitude of regular speakers at meetings for their suggestions? Has Kristen ever once said, " You lived through a culling. How can we make it easier for you?" No, in her usual way, she is hostile, close minded, and defensive. Dare not question her. Watch her at meetings. Look at her body language. See how defensive she got when a commissioner questioned her about increasing Outreach's funding another $1000, on top of the $2000 increase in the recommended budget.
It is not in Kristen's nature to be anything but how she is. Unfortunately, she has been elected to the commission, and the power is going to her head, just as her besties on the school board operate.
Elaine
12:04 PM, hate to break it to you, but you never had sharpshooters in your back yard. You had biologists from Wildlife Services.
ReplyDeleteElaine
12:04--how about signing your name since you would "welcome them back to finsih the job"? And how much experience do you have with firearms?
ReplyDeleteI find it disturbing that a certain fringe element of our town is being so cavalier about guns being fired within the municipal boundaries. As has been pointed out, it's one thing to have a deer shoot somewhere less densely populated. But here? That's insane, defies common sense and is only good for a season.
And I'm sure someone can go online and find all the statistics necessary to prop up the idea that the shoot will be safe since there have been only XX incidents in the last 50 years. Well, many things are safe until the one time something goes wrong.
Biologists in camoflage with rifles?????
ReplyDeleteOh they were there.
12:04 I absolutely agree with you, no one should dictate anyone's emails.
ReplyDeleteSo lets carry your laissez-faire attitude further. You want the "sharp-shooters" to come back and finish the job, feel free to hire 'em to come back to your property and "get 'er done!"
The deer don't bother me, I find them an acceptable risk on our roads and besides I'm covered if they should damage my car. In fact I think PA has special rules governing insurance coverage in deer related accidents.
If you and your friends want deer culled hire them and make sure they aim away from my property. You see I don't think I should be forced to pay for something like this that I don't want and don't think is safe.
1:47 If I could legally hire them I would. I would donate the meat to the food bank.
ReplyDeleteWe, as citizens, are often "forced" to pay for things that we don't want. My taxes pay for things that I will never use, should I be able to submit a laundry list of items that I don't wish to support? I don't use the turnpike, I don't use the golf course, I don't drive on I-80, I've never used FEMA or PEMA services.
10:50 here.
ReplyDeleteI like how the post I read was so unbelievably mis-read by Kristen's supporters.
She doesn't have to write what I am suggesting word for word. My suggestion was for her to write an email to Elaine that wasn't nearly as confrontational and nit-picky as she has. It does her no benefit to be the one that comments after every single citizen comment or to be the one that nit picks on every single resident email with which she disagrees.
My point is, Kristen has a habit of SEEKING conflict rather than RESOLVING conflict. Her constant comments at meetings and emails to Elaine are the evidence that support such a position.
12:04
ReplyDeleteIf Kristen responded in a professional way instead of an emotional way, I, for one, would respect that.
But she never does respond in a professional way. Not in meetings and not in emails.
She has three more years on the commission. I would suggest strongly that she imitate what those who have had success on the commission are doing. Look to Dave and Kelly for two examples. While they disagree with each other they still seem to want to work together. They certainly don't cut off resident comments in the mid-sentence...or worse yet, wait for that resident to sit down before addressing their comment.
Of course you can't hire them yourself. I was inferring that if you hate the deer so much and want them culled you pay the user fee.
ReplyDeleteSuch as the golf course, the community built and maintains it, but that doesn't mean anyone plays for free. You want to play you pay the greens fee, you want a cart, you rent a cart.
Same thing with the deer. The municipality makes the shooters available. You want one taken out you pay for the hit.
I've never used animal control, but it's my understanding that if you have a racoon or other pest they charge something to eliminate the pest in certain instances.
I could be wrong on that though.
I had brought that up at a meeting and was criticized by Kristen for even suggesting it. One woman said that she would cheerfully pay to have deer removed from her property, while another woman would never pay for it. That is why we pay taxes, she said. How about sidewalks? We are to keep them in decent shape. If they need to be replaced, Mt. Lebanon gives you the option to have them done with their contractor or you can use your own, but it is on your dime. Why should my tax dollars be used to put people in harm's way or force me to live in my basement for six months because some cannot coexist with nature?
ReplyDeleteElaine
4:14 right. I believe even President Posti over at the school board has the manners to wait until the resident finishes before adding her comments. At worse she ask if the speaker would like her to address each comment as they cone up or wait until the speaker is finished.
ReplyDeleteIf everyone remembers, Ms. Linfante was front and center attempting to "interrupt" the infamous What the Kluck public forum.
Couldn't even wait to hear the results of that before trying to "talk" over it.
To be fair, I have received polite responses from Ms. Linfante to emails I sent to the commissioners. In fact she welcomed them and said she take them under consideration.
ReplyDeleteI do agree though watching the commission meetings she projected a less argumentative posture in person. Waiting to hear comments thru to completion before interjecting her's would be wise.
To be fair, 6:14 PM, were you disagreeing with Kristen?
ReplyDeleteElaine
I was offering alternatives to the field/turf issue so it wasn't necessarily disagreeing.
ReplyDelete