Commissioners,
I am sending this to you all and copying State Representative Dan Miller on his personal email since his "contact me" is not conducive to emails. Dan recommended that I send it that way. Let him tell you that when he was doing target practice in the military, the targets were 1,000 feet away.
If our goal is to come up with a deer management plan, and we all share a common goal of safety, please consider Kelly's nonlethal plan. It meets all of our goals.
The map below shows the bullet range of a stray bullet. The map is of a town in NY which is 1.5 miles in its widest point. It is conceivable that a shot could be fired on one border of Mt. Lebanon and travel all the way to the other side of Mt. Lebanon.
Elaine Gillen
It can be argued that Mt. Lebanon isn't level or wide open for a bullet to travel that far, but consider this. If a bullet can travel two miles, are you really safe if someone on your street wants deer killed on their property? Or if someone on the next street wants a deer killed in their yard? That bullet can cover a lot of ground.
A gun expert told me, aside from the absolute BS statistics that Linfante tosses around to justify a mass deer kill, there is also the liability faced by the township should anything go amiss. The commission cannot guarantee anyone's safety. It would be ridiculous for a sane person to even pose that question. It would be like asking the commission to guarantee there will be snow on Christmas Day. Impossible. How much would that cost? Whoops, there goes the "surplus." As for accuracy, this person is considered an "expert" shot but wouldn't pull the trigger within the boundaries of Mt. Lebanon. There is no controlling external factors or just plain having a bad day.
There is something that is really bugging me about this whole thing. Dave Brumfield would never vote for a deer cull unless the deer got to carry guns too. What has changed him? Did he sell out for a turf vote? In Kristen Linfante's own words, she is a lone wolf on deer culling. Suddenly she has two more commissioners "seeing the light." What gives? Three votes for a deer cull. Three votes for turf. Imagine that.
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I think if the commissioners--ALL OF THEM--are willing to publicly declare (and then commit to in writing) their acceptance, personally, of all liability when something goes wrong, then the cull should move forward. Easy. Either they want to make a decision and stand by it fully, or they don't.
ReplyDeleteThe turf thing is just dumb. Kristen knows it, Dave knows it but they somehow believe it will help us "compete" with other townships. Guess what, guys? The reason we're not competitive with other towns in the area is because YOU KEEP SPENDING ALL OUR MONEY!! STOP SPENDING!
From what I have heard independently, but confirmed by our police chief in a public meeting, the the powder loads for shells used for deer culling are far less than for military or hunting rounds of the same caliber.
ReplyDeleteAs a result, an expert might claim culling shells may have a lethal range of say 100 yards rather than 3,000 yards or more for military or hunting rounds. Even so, these would be dangerous if used by anyone not trained and certified in their use.
100 yards? Even at 100 yards, that includes more homes than just next door neighbors. How far apart are our houses? The average lot size on my street is 40'x120'.
ReplyDeleteElaine
Sixty feet is a common frontage for many residential lots.
ReplyDelete11:30, no amount of training and certification can prevent a bullet from striking an unintentional target.
ReplyDeleteYou make it seem like the experts have a way of changing chaos to order, remotely controlling a projectile after it leaves the muzzle.
There is a reason the safety zone is 150 yards for rifles, and breech loading rifles are illegal for hunting in Allegheny County.
40 feet, 45 feet, 60 feet a 100 feet. That's the debate when you're discussing the lethal power of a bullet at distances of 100 yards or more.
ReplyDelete60 feet equals just 20 yards.
Ask hunters, how many times they've had to track a deer long distances they've shot with a full load bullet, because the shot didn't take the deer down!
That may be true, 7:33 AM, but on my street, the Allegheny County website shows 40'x120'. I live in the low end of Mt. Lebanon, which some Foster moms would refer to as the slums - anything on the other side of Vermont.
ReplyDeleteElaine
1130--Trained and certified in what? Use of specific types of rounds? I'm not aware of any program anywhere that certifies people in lower load rounds for deer culling in densely populated suburban areas. So that means the "expertise" of the shooters would be in question.
ReplyDeleteAnd does this mean our police chief is okay with residents discharging weapons as long as they're only a certain load? That's awesome. I've been dying to do some recreational shooting from my back porch as I have squirrels and rabbits everywhere, along with the occasional deer. Can I get a Mt. Lebanon-specific hunting license? It would be cool to be able to literally sit in a lawn chair, pop a critter, dress it and throw it right on the grill in my yard. It's like a hunting trip for the lazy. Of course, there's the issue of my neighbors, the people who live behind me. But heck, their house is a good 100/120 feet from my porch. If I miss the deer, I guess those small-load rounds won't hurt anything, like their kids or their dog. And because the commissioners are in favor of this, I would assume if I end up accidentally shooting a neighbor, I won't be prosecuted. This will be like living in the 1800's. I'm going to get a coonskin cap and maybe a horse.
"coonskin" may no longer be a politically correct word per-se. And Lebo does not have an ordinance allowing horses, so you cannot have one here. Like raising chickens. An ordinance had to be passed recently to allow solar panels to be used in the bubble !
ReplyDeleteOur commission is so tricky. Look at the posted Deer Incident Report. http://mtlebanon.org/DocumentCenter/View/9587
ReplyDeleteMore compelling argument than the list that I got my hands on. It includes reports of deer sightings and doesn't identify the three deer related injuries. Nice.
Elaine
Actually if you visit Lebomag there is a contribution from a resident longing for a Davy Cockert coonskin cap.
ReplyDeleteYou may be onto a new recreational activity 9:33, the whole community can enjoy.
Lebo magazine can do feature stories on who has the most lavishly furnished tree stand, organize Mt. Lebanon wild deer safari's replete with prominent Lebomen and women with their mad dogs sipping gin in the mid-day sun.
10:32, did you say Mt. Lebanonians sip their maddog playing gin at Clearview Common at night?
ReplyDeleteNo I wrote Lebomen and women [sitting] with their mad dogs sipping [as in Boogles or Beefeaters] gin in the mid-day sun.
ReplyDeleteIt was a reference to:
Mad Dogs and Englishmen (by Noel Coward)
In tropical climes there are certain times of day
When all the citizens retire, to tear their clothes off and perspire.
It's one of those rules that the biggest fools obey,
Because the sun is much too sultry and one must avoid its ultry-violet ray --
Papalaka-papalaka-papalaka-boo. (Repeat)
Digariga-digariga-digariga-doo. (Repeat)
The natives grieve when the white men leave their huts,
Because they're obviously, absolutely nuts --
Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.
The Japanese don't care to, the Chinese wouldn't dare to,
Hindus and Argentines sleep firmly from twelve to one,
But Englishmen detest a siesta,
In the Philippines there are lovely screens,to protect you from the glare,
In the Malay states there are hats like plates,which the Britishers won't wear,
At twelve noon the natives swoon, and no further work is done -
But Mad Dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.
It's such a surprise for the Eastern eyes to see,
That though the British are effete, they're quite impervious to heat,
When the white man rides, every native hides in glee,
Because the simple creatures hope he will impale his solar topee on a tree.
Bolyboly-bolyboly-bolyboly-baa. (Repeat)
Habaninny-habaninny-habaninny-haa. (Repeat)
It seems such a shame that when the English claim the earth
That they give rise to such hilarity and mirth -
Mad Dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.
The toughest Burmese bandit can never understand it.
In Rangoon the heat of noon is just what the natives shun.
They put their scotch or rye down, and lie down.
In the jungle town where the sun beats down,to the rage of man or beast,
The English garb of the English sahib merely gets a bit more creased.
In Bangkok, at twelve o'clock, they foam at the mouth and run,
But mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.
Mad Dogs and Englishmen, go out in the midday sun.
The smallest Malay rabbit deplores this stupid habit.
In Hong Kong, they strike a gong, and fire off a noonday gun.
To reprimand each inmate, who's in late.
In the mangrove swamps where the python romps there is peace from twelve till two.
Even caribous lie down and snooze, for there's nothing else to do.
In Bengal, to move at all, is seldom if ever done,
But mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.
It seems such a shame that when the English [and MTL commissioners] claim the earth
That they give rise to such hilarity and mirth
I am livid knowing that data is being manipulated. I will not live through another deer cull in my neighborhood. Linfante has succeeded in pitting neighbor against neighbor once again. She did it with the high school renovation and she is doing it again with deer culling. Both times without facts.
ReplyDeleteI am angry that Dave Brumfield sold his soul for his precious turf.
I don't want Mt. Lebanon to be put at risk for three deer related injuries since 2011. I think it is despicable that Linfante and company are going to get this one too.
I have been asked about another petition,but almost 4,000 signatures didn't do sh*t. Now we are talking about bullets flying around in six square miles with the density of 5457.2 people per square mile.
Elaine
Sorry for the duplicate comments. The wifi here is not too good.
ReplyDeleteElaine
This community is entirely too dense and the houses are too close together for this to be carried out safely.
ReplyDeleteI fervently hope the commissioners reconsider this. Can you imagine the headlines if someone is accidentally shot?
Look at the alleged 150 incidents with 57 deer/sq mi. How many incidents with 5,500 residents/sq mi ?
ReplyDeleteI guess the argument would be that the shooters have more brains than the deer. But I get what you are saying. The odds are greater for an accident.
ReplyDeleteAll this could be avoided if the commissioners would go with Kelly's well thought out plan.
Elaine
On the eve of the celebration for another birthday of our great country it is tragic that all of us must post comments anonomyously because we fear reprisal, retalliation, or even worse:
ReplyDeletehttp://pittsblog.blogspot.com/2007/10/back-from-mt-lebanon.html
- only now, all of us must live in grave fear for our lives.
I will pray for everyone.
Be safe, and enjoy your hot dog while watching the fireworks, or dodging to the gunfire - as the case may be,...
According to the 2010 census there are 33.137 people living in Mt. Lebanon.
ReplyDelete33,137 divided by 150 incidents means that 1 person out of every 221 residents has had an "incident" (some of which are simple 'hey there's is deer in my flower bed' calls)with deer.
221 people have to pony up taxes and accept risk to keep that one person happy, doesn't seem very democratic does it.
I'd say we'd save a lot more lives if we add more DUI patrols with the money we'd spend on deer culling.
Maybe Outreach wouldn't need so much money if we got alcohol and drugs under control.
What you don't want people drinking at their kids lacrosse and soccer games?
ReplyDeletethat's a great point! who is testing the shooters for controlled substances before they lock and load?
ReplyDeleteThis is far too dense a community to even think of bringing in guns. And how many people are complaining?
ReplyDeleteBefore we do something stupid and regrettable, how about looking into some of the solutions suggested on this website below:
http://www.gooddeals.com/content/19/How+To+Deter+Deer.aspx
There are always fences, too.
This shooting proposal is just not doable here. None of us, our pets, our homes and cars would be safe.
ReplyDeleteThis is absolutely out of the question!
There's a saying in the gun community - every bullet has a lawyer attached.
ReplyDeleteNow, you'd have to be pretty experienced to make a 2 mile shot. The longest sniper shot (1.52 miles) was with a .338 Lapua round which is not something they'd use to hunt deer (you could but it would be overkill). Before that, the longest shots have been with .50 cal rounds... again, not something you're going to hunt deer with unless they're in armored personnel carriers or you're hunting them behind brick walls. Most likely, they would use .30-06 or .308 (7.62x51 NATO). The longest recorded hit out of those 2 was 0.77 miles.
All that being said though, there is still a danger in Mt Lebanon of shooting deer with a rifle round. Even a .223 round (the smallest I think you could actually use against a deer) can go over 300 meters and still cause damage (I've made 300 meter shots with a .223 round and I am not an expert marksman). I can't think of 300 meters in Mt Lebanon that would not have a risk of some sort of human being there. (for those who are sports inclined, think of 3 football fields).
I am not anti-gun whatsoever. I like to rifle shoot and very much believe in the Second Amendment. But, I also believe in responsible gun ownership. When it comes to firearms, the risk of any innocent human being possibly in your line of fire is one risk too many. In other words, the risk is too high to be hunting with a rifle in Mt Lebanon.
I sent two emails to the commission tonight. The first one:
ReplyDeleteFrom The New York Times:
A Kinder, Gentler Way to Thin the Deer Herd
Hastings-on-Hudson hopes to become the first suburb in the United States to control the deer population through contraception. http://nyti.ms/14wkoL3
Notice how there was funding from an animal rights group. We could do this too.
Elaine Gillen
Second email:
http://triblive.com/mobile/4218934-96/homes-million-sales
Commissioners,
Did you see the most expensive house sold last year in the region was in USC? Two story house on 125 acres. There are 640 acres in 1 square mile. THAT is why they can do deer culling in Upper St. Clair.
Elaine Gillen