Tuesday, February 25, 2014
Artificial Turf Fields: A Troubling Perspective
Artificial Turf Fields: A Troubling Perspective from Amy Stephan on Vimeo.
Please watch this interview with one of our nation's foremost experts on synthetic turf, David S Brown, Sc.D. He is a public health toxicologist. Dr. Brown has an interest in southwestern PA and may be willing to conduct another interview which examines how our region's high particulate matter levels, combined with the off-gassing from synthetic turf, and our already damaged watershed, will combine to be a health and eco-system disaster.
Without longitudinal, prospective studies that examine child health in relation to exposure to synthetic turf, we do not know the actual safety of exposing *children* to the chemical soup within synthetic turf over the long-term.
Dave B. WANTS turf so we will be forced to pay for it and watch in a few years when people start the lawsuits going Dave B. will be right there to help. Once an Ambulance Chaser always an Ambulance Chaser! He can't get legit business so he's building business at the expense of kids.
ReplyDeleteDave Franklin likes to dismiss any of my sources, saying that they are biased in some way toward natural grass.
ReplyDeleteTo save the 3 Daves, 2 Johns, and a Kristen some time, here is David Brown's background.
"David Brown is the Public Health Toxicologist and Director of Public Health Toxicology for Environment and Human Health, Inc. He is the past Chief of Environmental Epidemiology and Occupational Health in Connecticut and was previously Associate Professor of Toxicology at Northeastern College of Pharmacy and Allied Health. He also served as Deputy Director of the Public Health Practice Group of Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) at the National Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia. Dr. Brown graduated from Cornell University in Biochemistry, received his MS from the University of California In Environmental Health, and his ScD from Harvard School of Public Health in Toxicology."
Elaine
So we are removing pain killers from the water supply with the S. A. F. E. program and putting toxins from tire crum into the water supply. Now we can poison everyone instead of a few addicts - commissioners included.
ReplyDeleteAny mother who took prenatal vitamins during her pregnancy should be troubled by the video. Do they want to subject their babies to these toxins?
ReplyDelete8:46 AM, at one time, Kristen Linfante advocated for children's safety.
ReplyDeleteElaine
At one time the YSA/SAB song and dance was "It's for the kids!"
ReplyDeleteLately, the conversation seems to be focusing on "Crown Jewels," naming rights, sign revenues, and keeping up with the Joneses.
The kids, the environment-- their health and its welfare doesn't seem to be a concern at all.
More on why its about money.
ReplyDeleteIts claimed that naming rights and sign revenue - set up not as income to the municipality, but now "donations to the sports cabal" by sponsors that get sign space as a reward for their gifts.
Funny thing though, these "donors" will they only contribute to kids sports if there is artificial turf?
If we have a premier natural grass field, groomed and well- maintained it holds no interest for them?
I think somebody is shoveling this community a lot of horse sh*t.
There you have it.
ReplyDeleteArtificial turf isn't about more games, kids heath and development, sports or sportsmanship.
Its all about money, plain and simple.
Here is the landscape architect's opinion.
ReplyDeleteMt. Lebanon commission hears tales of two turfs
As I said in a comment on a previous thread, on Monday night, the commission gave the green light for Gateway Engineering to proceed with the project. Our commissioners have it set in their minds that we are getting artificial turf no matter what. This is a done deal and your kids, not mine, are being exposed to this toxic turf.
Elaine
Everyone will be exposed to this pollution whether they play on the fields or not. You would be surprised by measurements of the air quality in Mt Lebanon.
ReplyDeleteIsn't it funny that The Almanac and Sauer reference only 2008 studies and not the most recent recommendation about the hazards of turf.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Sauer makes this comment.
"“Nothing is maintenance free,” Sauer said. “But what we’re seeing from the municipal up through the collegiate sports level and beyond is that grass fields with a continuous use cycle just don’t survive.”"
Maybe Sauer been talking to Quaker Valley Superintendent Clapper.
http://triblive.com/neighborhoods/yoursewickley/yoursewickleymore/5506919-74/field-turf-board#axzz2u0tL05De
"Quaker Valley scores $439K deal for new field turf"
You need to read this article very carefully to catch this little gem.
"Superintendent Joseph Clapper said had board members considered a natural surface, maintenance costs could have been high.
“It costs money to put in a new turf field, but it costs money to maintain a (grass) field,” he said. A decade ago, when school leaders considered replacing a then-grass surface, Clapper said maintenance costs were estimated to be about $30,000 per year, which included labor costs, fertilizer, seeding and preparing the field for winter."
This Superintendent Clapper must be a product of TERC math.
Initial installation of artificial turf, lets say $436,000(the article doesn't say what the costs was in 2004).
Ten year later replacement costs: $436,000 (lets assume another 10 year lifespan).
Total est. costs over twenty years for artificial turf: $872,000. (excluding any turf maintenance from year-to-year)
Clapper's all in estimate for natural grass: $30,000/year.
Total costs over those same twenty years: $600,000!
A difference of in favor of natural grass of -ta da- $272,000.
I wonder has anyone ever investigated what sodding a natural grass field would cost every few years. $30,000 for grass maintenance is a lot of maintenance and one would expect they'd stay in pretty good shape.
The Dick's Sportsplex in Cranberry with grass looks great.
Oh funny thing as well, grass fields seemed to attract a big sponsor!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said, your comments are flawed regarding the Quaker Valley project. True the cost of turf over the life cycle is more but the one fact that you missed is with grass field you are limited to events. On artificial there is no limit to events. If you attend a high school game on Friday night and it rains the field is junk for the rest of the season. Plus almost every district does not have the man power or equipment to properly maintain a grass field, therefor turf is welcome releaf.
ReplyDeleteIf the toxins are so bad why are there thousands of fields accross the US at every level of play??
Do you really believe that the grass field at your local high school would stay green and hold up all year with football games and practices, soccer games and practices, PE class, field hockey games and practices and lacrosse games and practices???
Excrement is plentiful in this town. We have known about deer and dog poop, but can now it is observed that equinine, bovine and poultry waste is being spread around. Hogtied along with kowtowing are interesting observations regarding the current political situation. Open your wallet and hold your nose. Who will step forward and run for office? My guess is . . . NO ONE.
ReplyDelete12:30, surely you aren't serious.
ReplyDeleteThousands of fields have turf so that makes it OK?
Hundreds of thousands of buildings have asbestos, go install some in your house.
As for one game in rain, are you telling that the Cranberry's Sportsplex season is over if one game destroys their grass fields.
Knock off the BS.
12:49, perhaps we can find candidates if they crowd the commission and school board meetings.
ReplyDeletePlus, volunteers might step up if they see that residents will have there back instead of standing on theor on like Hart, Fraasch and Kluck.
And candidates like Stephenson, Wertheim, Bies, Cannon and Elaine don't get left dangling.
I laugh when I drive past our "soon to be crown jewel" and I see 1 (one) sign hanging from sponsors.
ReplyDeleteI drive past the grass field in Scott Twp behind the police station and they have a whole bunch of signs. That field is on a road that gets a fraction of the traffic that Cedar Blvd gets as well.
What's the problem Mt Lebanon, can't you get your act together? Too busy dreaming about "crown jewels" to get down to the real work of getting sponsors? Maybe the real problem is people in Mt Lebanon don't care about field sports?
Maybe our 6th commissioner can answer that.
http://www.sportsturfnw.com/the-consequences-of-a-no-maintenance-mindset-for-synthetic-turf-fields/
ReplyDelete"Artificial turf can be a cause agent for harmful bacteria that can easily spread infections like MRSA, Staph, and even HIV if not eliminated with the proper equipment."
So Dave Franklin--are you the one we go after when a kid contracts HIV from the plastic field? Or is it you, Brumfield? Maybe both?
12:30 PM, why are there thousands of fields across the US at every level of play? Because there are Daves and Johns and Kristens all across the US who pushed toxic turf just as they have here. There are moratoriums and voters rejecting artificial turf ALL OVER THE WORLD. Remember the Lebo Citizens reader from Redmond, WA who wrote in that their toxic turf sat idle because of the dangers of artificial turf? Pittsburgh is just behind the times, as usual.
ReplyDeleteElaine
Hey 12:30, just to show how wrong you are.
ReplyDeleteVisit the following link.
http://www.crewsoccer.org/Default.aspx?tabid=157584
PA Crew Soccer, Seneca Valley Soccer Association and Star United all play on Dicks 4 natural grass, lighted and "well-maintained" fields.
Don't forget Paula, 2:18 PM.
ReplyDeleteElaine
I grew up playing on grass fields in this region, sometimes in mud but mostly not, and we went to the championships ever year.
ReplyDeleteI think the commissioners are afraid to tell public works that they need to kick up their community care of parks several notches. Turf is their answer to public works/landscaping malaise and ignorance.
Hey 2:50, just to show how wrong you are, perhaps you should check your sources again.
ReplyDeleteCrewsoccer play all of the winter games INDOORS, on TURF!!!!!!
PA Crew Soccer Academy is excited to announce the availability of Indoor Training at our new facility. Available now, this facility provides our club players skills training, conditioning, Speed and Agility, etc... at no extra cost. The facility has a state of the art turf field 70’x120’. The field is open with no boards to promote a more realistic version of the game and reinforces skills required for outside play.
Crew teams train one to two times per week for 60 minutes. Having our own training facility, we are no longer restricted by time. All of our training is at one location and we have the ability to offer additional programs to all our players at no additional cost. No other club has their own training facility in the area and no other club offers as much as CREW does from all of our Nationally licensed Coaches
Lebo has 1 municipal field (Bird) that can be used for regulation soccer, football and lacrosse games. If we add Jefferson and Mellon to the equation, we have 3. I hate adding the HS to the equation because it is primarily used for HS sports and can't really be considered as part of the inventory, but to keep all of the doubters happy let's throw it in there for a grand total of 4 full sized fields. Each of the above grass fields is used by multiple groups and multiple sports year round. In other words, they are not dedicated. In Lebo, we also play lacrosse, soccer, football, field hockey, and of course baseball on our baseball fields. All year long.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, Graham Park in Cranberry alone has 7 full size lacrosse/football/soccer fields. Of this inventory, 3 are dedicated to football and lacrosse (because they are played in different seasons) and 4 are dedicated to soccer. Graham Park's 5 baseball fields are dedicated solely for baseball. North Boundary Park in Cranberry has 3 soccer fields and an American Legion baseball field. Community Park in Cranberry has 5 lighted baseball fields, a lighted football field, and 2 multisport practice fields.
To be fair in our comparison, the Seneca Valley HS campus has a turfed stadium, 2 additional baseball fields and 3 more multipurpose grass fields, but I'm not sure the folks from Cranberry even venture over to Jackson Twp to use them. If we include the 4 multipurpose fields at SVHS, that gives Cranberry a total of 17 multipurpose fields, or 13 if we leave out the HS campus.
The 7 grass fields at Graham Park are subject to a strict schedule of rest and use, including proactive closure during periods of heavy rain. That's how those fields remain in good shape. As you can see, there are plenty of other fields to handle the demand.
In case you're wondering, Cranberry's population in 2010 was just over 28,000.
So, if you consider all of the above, it is very easy to understand why Cranberry's 13 grass fields are in such wonderful condition for the dedicated seasons in which they are used, while our 3 fields are tasked with accommodating every sport over 12 months for the same size community. If we were to dedicate sports to specific fields and close them like they do in Cranberry, we couldn’t accommodate most of our sports programs in Mt. Lebanon.
As for Redmond, WA, in July of 2013 the Redmond City Council approved over $640,000 to replace two of their older turf fields. According to the agenda, these two fields had 837 events and accommodated 47,000 users in 2012 alone. They hardly seem to be idle.
http://www.redmond.gov/Government/CityCouncil/MeetingInformation/07302013agenda
Thanks Commissioner Franklin. Care to comment on Dr. Brown's video?
ReplyDeleteElaine
So 3:38, you will be pushing for an indoor facility as rumored?
ReplyDeleteWhat about the EPA warnings? Then there is the ESB which Linfante, Cappucci, you and the other two Daves, and the Johns don't seem to take seriously.
ReplyDeleteI wish I could stop this turf crap. I am sick over the fact that tax dollars are being spent on toxic fields. If you want to poison kids, you should do it on your dime, not mine.
Elaine
As for Brown, his reputation is well known to the SAB already. While clearly an educated and intelligent man, he is far from unbiased and independent. In fact, he is employed by perhaps one of the more vocal anti-turf advocacy groups - Environment and Human Health, Inc. (EHHI). What a coincidence!
ReplyDeleteNotably, EHHI is also very active in advocating against plastic lunch boxes, wood burning fires, indoor tanning, cell phones, and lawn care pesticides. In short, EHHI believes that just about anything in life can hurt you.
3:46 pm
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that the need for fields is so great that you are willing to overlook any health concerns? You can stop now and consider Fraasch's proposal for 2 more fields.
Yeah Dave, I hate when that happens. The EPA is the same way. They're no fun.
ReplyDeleteRemember the good old days when we were allowed to smoke in the smoking section of the high school? Or are you too young? I loved it because smoke wasn't pouring out of the bathrooms anymore. But then someone put an end to smoking at the high school. What a bummer.
We need to rely on what turf companies tell us. Their studies certainly aren't biased like those damn sod farms are. Jeeze. The nerve! And to have an anti-turf advocacy group to be against indoor tanning, cell phones and pesticides is just lunacy. What is this world coming to?
Elaine
I got a personal email from Mr. Franklin saying that he has not posted on my blog since mid-December.
ReplyDeleteDave would like to clear up a few things that were posted on my blog. I hope you don't mind me sharing this with readers. I don't know how else to clear things up.
Dave has not applied for a position on the Mt. Lebanon Community Endowment Board. He previously served on the Endowment Board
back around 2005, but currently has no plans to apply for a position again.
Dave is not aware of any plans or proposals for an indoor facility in our community.
I seem to remember Dave saying at a SAB meeting that he is submitting his application to the MLCE, but I must have been mistaken.
Thanks for reading, Dave. I hope that cleared things up. Great job on the Susan Morgans article. I hope St. Clair Hospital doesn't get wind that the magazine is pushing toxic turf. They might stop advertising.
Elaine
Lets tell the whole story in your Cranberry rebuttal 3:46.
ReplyDeleteHow about not cherry-picking the facts.
You are correct stating in 2010 the population was only 28,098.
But, you don't dig deeper into those numbers because it won't support your cause.
30.7% of that population was under 18. That's 8,625 kids.
5.4% were 18 to 24. Another 1,514 young adults.
35.2% were 25 to 44. Another 9,889 probably active residents.
Contrast those percentage with ones for Lebo, 25.4% are ages 45 to 64. 18.8% are 65 or older.
Additionally our school district predicts big drops in their enrollments ovrr the next few years.
What does Mt. Lebanon's youth sports put on our fields- 3,200 kids?
You also fail to mention the other amenities avaiable to the Cranberry residents. Walking biking paths, a pond.
Lastly you don't mention Cranberry's population is projected to expand to 50,000 by 2030. They can afford everything you report due to an expanding tax base.
Staph and MRSA on artificial turf. This is my business. I try and bring awareness to every post or article in the country I see about health hazards. I apologize for giving my websites address but that is where all my info is. Artificial turf manufacturers are acting like Big Tobacco, profits over safety. Parents need to pay attention. Your kids are playing in everyone's blood and bodily fluids. There is no regulation in this industry.
ReplyDeleteCheck on my blog tomorrow, you will not be disappointed with what I put up. I will put up a comment tomorrow with the link
www.sportsturfnw.com/blog/
Mike Woelfel
Mike, I approved your comment. Thank you for posting, but I need to give a heads up to readers. Make sure your speakers are off because there is a very loud sound byte on it. People read this blog at work.
ReplyDeleteElaine
Something else to consider 3:46.
ReplyDeleteMedium income as reported by The Business Times Report on the areas wealthiest school districts.
#11. Mt. Lebanon $76,953
#10. Seneca Valley $77,500 (Cranberry)
E.T Gillen
ReplyDeleteThank you. I took the noisy soundbite down. I am guessing it was the Crabtree video.
Also I wanted to mention that this blog is being followed closely by the turf manufacturers. My piece tomorrow will explain much more. The jist is a concerned mother about artificial turf wrote a editorial never mentioned the turf company by name but the turf company contacted the paper and her to say she was misinformed on her opinions. Here is the link to Jill's editorial then the response. I have part 3 tomorrow;)
http://www.northjersey.com/townjournal/ down under editorial, sorry forgot to include in last post
ReplyDeleteWhy are we comparing Mt Lebanon's decision to add more artificial turf to a recreational park to the choices made by other cities, towns and private clubs?
ReplyDeleteThe point here is that we have access to information that makes this a very bad choice.
In the vimeo statement, Dr. Brown was commenting on the hazards of artificial turf to Virginia communities. But the hazards posed to residents here are even higher because
Allegheny Co ranks in the top 2% of counties in the country for cancer risk from hazardous air pollutants.
Instead of adding more hazardous air pollutants, we should be reducing toxic air pollution.
Likewise, our watershed is in very bad shape. After the turf Commission discussion on Monday, the topic shifted to Mt Lebanon's state mandate to reduce pollution to the Saw Mill Run watershed. They discussed having a public meeting with residents within the SMR watershed to inform them of necessary changes. I believe testing results highlighted were from 2007.
It's just a matter of time before the discussion will be focused on reducing contaminants to the Chartiers Creek watershed... right next to the proposed artificial turf.
http://www.post-gazette.com/news/environment/2013/11/21/Report-Allegheny-County-in-top-2-percent-in-U-S-for-cancer-risk-from-air-pollution/stories/201311210326
Here is a comprehensive report...
ReplyDeletehttp://sportsbuilders.org/events/presentations/pontevedra_3cserensits.pdf
Here is the complete link from Mike.
ReplyDeleteConcerns on artificial turf field
Also, I am aware this blog is being followed closely by turf manufacturers. Thanks for the heads up.
This whole artificial turf thing has been really fishy, Mike. I filed a Right To Know which should be coming out on Friday. It contains 1500 emails, from November 1- January 24. Hopefully, they have passed the legal review.
Elaine
Here is a very relevant comment from Mike's website suggesting we will burn kids as well as poison them?"
ReplyDelete"It is a major heat hazard. Temperatures climb much higher than they do on grass and have been measured as high as 160-170 degrees on a warm day. Brigham Young University once recorded a temperature of 200 degrees on its synthetic field. Using (an excessive amount of) water to cool the field only works for a short period of time, as surfaces quickly reheat. Any temperature over 122 degrees can injure or burn skin in less than 10 minutes. Doctors claim that it can take only 2 seconds to burn skin on solid surfaces over 140 degrees. Other serious risks include dehydration and heat stroke."
- See more at: http://www.northjersey.com/news/opinions/245319401_Concerns_on_artificial_turf_field.html?page=all#sthash.YJljWgVd.dpuf
As someone that was born and raised in Redmond I can tell YOU they are removing the turf fields and replacing them with grass. Turf is a very TOXIC topic. So in a few years Mt Lebanon will be spending millions to remove it. But then again I have a better plan. Since our home in on Cedar Blvd and very close to those planned fields the Board won't mind me placing a large yard sign informing new home buyers about the Toxic Fields and how much wasted taxes are being spent.
ReplyDeleteBlack carbon is known to cause asthma and exacerbate asthma. Many of the children in this community suffer from asthma and many are athletes. Why didn't the turf group, SAB, or Commission reach out to these families before it decided to add to the burden on the lungs of these athletes?
ReplyDeleteWho will be responsible for the cumulative respiratory impact on the asthmatic athletes? Is it parent responsibility to refrain from permitting children at risk for or already suffering from asthma to play field sports? What about the kids that already play field sports? Should they drop-out?
These kids have the right to clean air. The asthmatic kids have the right to be included and protected.
Turf Toe
ReplyDelete"Typically with turf toe, the injury is sudden. It is most commonly seen in athletes playing on artificial surfaces, which are harder than grass surfaces and to which cleats are more likely to stick. It can also happen on a grass surface, especially if the shoe being worn doesn't provide adequate support for the foot. Often the injury occurs in athletes wearing flexible soccer-style shoes that let the foot bend too far forward."
http://www.m.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/turf-toe-symptoms-causes-and-treatments?page=2
In addition to violating the Pennsylvania Constitution by installing turf, I also find the claims of "thousands" of turfed fields dubious. Where is there an inventory that I can verify?
ReplyDeleteSince the SAB is familiar with Dr. Brown and seems to believe his concise comments are biased, I would like to provide them with some additional information from the 2013 Symposium on Cumulative Impacts and Children's Environmental Health held at Berkeley in Jan 2013. There's a lot more information out there, SAB.
ReplyDeletehttp://circle.berkeley.edu/kidsCimpacts.html
10:32 PM, I envision all of Cedar lined with signs. You have had to put up with so much! The traffic, the illegal parking, the flooding - will only get worse once toxic turf goes in. The heat islands, the dust particles, the noise, and perhaps lights some day, will just add to your problems. I am sure there are many out there who would support you.
ReplyDeleteElaine
Here is the link to Mike's latest blog post, Artificial Turf Manufacturers are Acting Like Big Tobacco, Profits Over the Safety of Athletes
ReplyDeleteMike also shared links to Jill Riera's letter, as well as a response from Darren Gill, vice president of FieldTurf.
In Jill's letter, she quotes Devra Davis, a professor at University of Pittsburgh's Graduate School of Public Health and Director of the Center for Environmental Oncology. Perhaps we can have a symposium of experts from the area, to speak about the dangers of synthetic turf. We can hold it at the Municipal Building and President Linfante can organize a protest line outside.
Elaine
With Mr. Kluck as a greeter, Mrs. Linfante can recycle the What the Kluck signs. Its all about being green !
ReplyDeleteIf anyone still has old yard signs from the Linfante, Brumfield, or Bendel campaigns, just write in the word TURF and draw a circle and a / through it. They can go along Cedar Blvd. It IS about being green! Reduce, reuse, recycle.
ReplyDeleteElaine
Being a transplant, I'm unsure as to what provision(s) of the PA Constitution address installing athletic surfaces.
ReplyDeleteAnd although I'm not a lifer here, it seems pretty obvious that the "grass" fields in Mt Lebanon are typically harder (and therefore more prone to turf-toe) than a synthetic surface with a suitable GMAX rating. That is, when those fields are not quagmires. I'd think that realizing that fact played into the decision already made by this Commission, to move forward with turf.
People are aware, right, that our own kids and others play on turf surfaces today in many surrounding communities, including at our own high school? In the spirit of the EPA limiting their findings to the fields they put their hands on, I can tell you that my son is asthmatic and for him a grass field at South Allegheny, hard by the Clairton monstrosity, is where he's needed his rescue inhaler. Not on turf.
And lastly, with regard to Mr. Woelfel's useful input, I'd say it's less an indictment of turf per se than a cautionary tale regarding unmaintained (or under-maintained) turf surfaces, and from what I've seen the current planning explicitly addresses how to handle ongoing maintenance, including cleaning. Maybe Mr. Woelfel could get a chance to bid on that service at some point.
9:39 AM writes: "Maybe Mr. Woelfel could get a chance to bid on that service at some point." There it is, another bias pointed out by a SAB person. Any attempt to bring opposing viewpoints concerning artificial turf is shot down. Still no rebuttal to the EPA warnings.
ReplyDeleteElaine
What happens when it rains or snow melts on washington road on all that new asphalt and its carcinogens flow into the same system as the runoff from the turf? Did the ESB investigate that? I look at the chemical recipe for turf and find many of the same in the asphalt? Didn't the municipality install a new parking lot with a rain garden adjacent to it? What happens to those plants? I did watch Dr. Browns commentary and got a little spooked when he smiles and grins when he says "puberty". You also mention Dr Davis from PITT. hopefully she is aware of the amount of money her employerers have invested in artificial turf for the student/athletes who pay tuition to the school in which she is employed. Why didn't the ESB look into the installation of the turf at the high school? not sure how long we have had turf in this community, has it ever been opposed? Doesn't relay for life have its marathon down there? All those kids resting on the turf for a fundraiser for cancer? Certainly our neighboring communties could guide us on their findings of when they had their artifical surfaces installed. Highmark (a business in the health/medical field) installed a turf field right next to the river. where does that runoff go? where does our water come from? Not much in this world is safe any more but we have become more aware of the enviroment. No one wants to poision or taint waterways much less anything else in our world. I have to believe everyone wants what is safeset and best. I just don't know if all this talk of signs, protesting and name calling is good for our children either.
ReplyDelete9:39 AM, I have included the high school turf in my comments in the past. That needs to go, as well.
ReplyDeleteThe commissioners and SAB decided that the artificial turf should go down on Cedar, not because of the condition of the grass fields, but to be a crown jewel for realtors, add more slots for play, and to attract sponsors since it is highly visible from the road.
You sure are a slippery bunch!
Elaine
Wait how is pointing out that Woelfel is marketing turf cleaning products shooting down anything?
ReplyDeleteStill no recognition that the EPA reduced the scope of their study results, while affirming that the study itself was reliable, and that "it is not possible, without additional data, to extend the results beyond the four study sites to reach more comprehensive conclusions."
I'm looking at the EPA release itself rather than the articles about the release, and one caveat is that the acid-extraction method for surveying metals may actually overstate the presence of those substances.
Compounds which may be found in some (but not necessarily all tires) are listed, but there is no statement that I can see regarding the volatility of those compounds in inert crumb rubber, nor the degree to which amounts of those substances differ in tires from the asphalt we all drive on every day and the exhaust we create in doing so. I don't know myself, and I don't see the EPA saying anything about that.
Nickel version, I think calling the EPA statement a warning is a stretch.
I encourage those who haven't done so to read the source document and draw their own conclusions. They might differ from mine, and if they do, neither of us is a monster and I bet we can still have fun at our block parties this summer.
Does anyone have a copy of Mt Lebanon's recent application (and subsequent award) for Silver Certification as a sustainable community from Sustainable Pittsburgh? Just wondering how the decision to install synthetic turf might intersect with the muni's current status as a Silver Sustainable Community.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.sustainablepittsburgh.org
Silverman has his introduction in the magazine this month as well. There's the fourth vote for turf.
ReplyDeleteHis reasoning? The ancillary spending it will create in the community. Lacrosse will buy more gatorade at the gas station (does Mt. Lebanon see that money at all?) and those waiting for games to start will spend money at the pool.
#1, nobody said Lacrosse will actually get field time. The fields are already packed without lacrosse. #2, who the heck has the mentality that they want to go for a swim before the big game?
Typical Dem logic. It doesn't exist. It's all about feel-good.
9:39 you write...
ReplyDelete"And although I'm not a lifer here, it seems pretty obvious that the "grass" fields in Mt Lebanon are typically harder (and therefore more prone to turf-toe) than a synthetic surface with a suitable GMAX rating."
NO, SORRY IT DOESN'T SEEM PRETTY OBVIOUS THAT THE GRASS FIELDS HERE ARE TYPICAL HARDER. Are they harder simply because you decided to say they are? Please provide your research that proves its obvious our hard grass fields are causing "turf toe" more than turf.
Isn't remarkable, its called "turf toe," but here in paradise we should be calling it 'Mt. Lebanon Hard Packed Grass Toe!' If you observations are true-- it might say more about the maintenance of our fields than the differences between grass and turf.
Then you go on to claim...
"That is, when those fields are not quagmires. I'd think that realizing that fact played into the decision already made by this Commission, to move forward with turf."
SO those hard fields, when they're not hard-- are actually soft quagmires. Hmmm, I'm not a lifer either, but I'll contradict your observation. I've never seen Wildcat in a condition I called a quagmire. Or anything even close to a quagmire. If we get a torrential downpour for hours its going to get wet. I've seen area turfed fields get sloppy with puddles as well.
Again, maybe we shouldn't be looking at a $1.2 million turf solution, but rather analyzing why our field maintenance is so horrendously bad!!!!
From Time magazine...
ReplyDelete"
DEVELOPMENTAL DISABILITY
Children Exposed to More Brain-Harming Chemicals Than Ever Before
A new report finds the number of chemicals contributing to brain disorders in children has doubled since 2006"
http://healthland.time.com/2014/02/14/children-exposed-to-more-brain-harming-chemicals-than-ever-before/
So who wants to play Russian Roulette with our kids' health by laying down old tires (which we won't even deposit in landfills anymore) on athletic fields.
Could all these health-risk fears turn out to be false alarms... perhaps.
BUT WHAT IF THEY'RE NOT?
1:07 PM, you are right. The field that needs attention is Brafferton, not Middle and Wildcat. There was money designated for Brafferton, but on November 25, 2013, that $137,400 was moved to fund the turfing project at Middle and Wildcat. Minutes of the November 25, 2013 Adjourned Meeting of the Mt. Lebanon Commission
ReplyDelete[Brumfield] "added that recreation is very important to a community, and often essential when people are searching for a house. The placement of turf on a field will be one more community asset for prospective residents."
Not that artificial turf was needed because our fields are not being maintained properly.
Elaine
Have fun at your block party 1:07. I really mean that.
ReplyDeleteThe fields are not harder because I said they are, I said they are because in my experience they are. I think very many would agree.
I did not say they have caused more turf toe, I said they are more prone to cause turf toe.
Yes, the fields all get wet when it rains. Many of them spend weeks each year in bad shape because they are wet and muddy (thought I'd deconstruct "quagmire" a bit to remove the red-herring factor). In that state they can't be used, for casual use or organized use.
Current field conditions and existing state of achievable field maintenance have been topice for quite, quite some time. Sounds like you might have valuable input to add to that ongoing conversation, which would be great.
Elaine, isn't it laughable that every time they want to push a project forward here, they draw up "prospective homebuyers will find [turf, a new high school, pool -- name your poison] ESSENTIAL when searching for a house.
ReplyDeleteI'll be honest, when we bought here I didn't give a rats ass what the high school looked like! We didn't set one foot in the neighborhood elementary building. Nor did we pay a lot of attention to the sports fields on Cedar.
The tennis facility impressed me more and knowing a convenient golf course was close by were items that slightly swayed our decision.
Being close to town and a home we liked were the biggest factors.
Is their anyone that based their home puchase on what Wildcat looked like???
1:24 PM, the current argument for turf on Middle and Wildcat is that we are providing a "New Crown Jewel" for real estate agents to showcase those fields, the new pool, and the high school project to prospective residents. Brumfield said it in the meeting minutes. It has also been stated that sign revenue would increase due to visibility, making Wildcat and Middle more marketable.
ReplyDeleteKristen Linfante was quoted in the PG as saying, "There is not another option,” said Kristen Linfante, commission president, who voted in favor of the turf along with John Bendel and David Brumfield. “We would love to have grass fields. There is simply no place to put them.”
Artificial turf could come to Mt. Lebanon fields I couldn't follow her on that one. If she would love to have grass fields, then why is she voting to replace two grass fields with toxic turf?
The August 2012 YSA presentation indicated that adding artificial turf would add more slots for playing time. Slots for the Rock Pile were not included. It is discovered that the District is planning to spend a million dollars to artificially turf the Rock Pile in 2016.
During the push for developing McNeilly, we were told that we needed more fields. We allegedly have a field shortage. Yet, the two proposed fields at Robb Hollow were rejected.
The only time I heard about field maintenance issues was during negotiations among the Municipality, School District, and the Youth Sports Alliance. The Joint Maintenance Agreement was for District Fields only. No money was contributed by the YSA for field maintenance at Wildcat and Middle Fields.
So let's recap. We have a field shortage. We don't have a field shortage. We have a field shortage. We don't have a field shortage. We have a...
Elaine
So, I think that about sums up the reason for turfing Middle and Wildcat Fields with toxic turf. Let's try to address "... health or environmental concerns" as noted BRIEFLY in the recent mtl Magazine article.
ReplyDeleteElaine
So the turf is for prospective home buyers? I own a home here and I have children that play field sports. When we moved here, my oldest was a healthy toddler but upon living here, he developed asthma and chronic upper respiratory illness. We did everything we could to help him, including years of medical appointments, nebulizers, missed school, removing carpets, installing air filters, etc. We made enough *environmental changes* to help him overcome his asthma. Currently, he doesn't need asthma medication and he's very athletic by any measure.
ReplyDeleteAs a current homeowner and parent of athletes, I see this synthetic turf as a major setback and something I don't want to expose my children to given our biological vulnerability to lung disease. We already have to deal with the region's very poor air problems. We didn't expect that Mt Lebanon would make choices to add to our pollution burden by installing playing fields with suspect materials that emit harmful chemicals.
Silverman's comment in the recent Lebomag just magnifies the inadequacy of this commission to make good decisions that safeguard the health of our children. He think the turf will allow Mt Lebanon to benefit from Gatorade and ice cream sales at the cost of child health. Unbelievable.
All I can say is... wow! This is a response loaded with facts, 1:23?
ReplyDelete"Have fun at your block party 1:07. I really mean that."
What exactly does whether I attend a block party or not have anything to do with this subject? Is there a point to that comment 1:24, if so... I missed it!
"The fields are not harder because I said they are, I said they are because in my experience they are. I think very many would agree."
The preceeding sentence is almost laughable, if it weren't so scary that someone can possibly think it makes sense.
Are you really serious, 1:24?
They're not hard because you say they are-- they're hard because in 'YOUR EXPERIENCE' they are.
Well in my experience, they aren't hard. I found Wildcat and Middle to be a really nice fields. They could use some tender loving care from time to time as any field will. My experience also tells me, these "hard" fields don't generate a lot of injuries due to your perceive hardness. I asked you for evidence that they do, and you talk about my block party. Silly!
I did not say they have caused more turf toe, I said they are more prone to cause turf toe."
1:24, "prone to cause turf toe."
That tells me you have no evidence to offer. Only a seat-of-the pants feeling that they might cause more turf toe.
When you come up with some facts, get back to me. Apparently, you know which block party I'll be at.
Think about the absurdity.
ReplyDeleteIf Gatorade and ice cream bars sell for $2.25 each, for $1,200,000 we could buy 533,333 of them and hand them out free at the games.
Oh, by the way 1:24 I have made contributions to the conversation on field maintenance several times to the school board and the commissioners. Too bad they didn't share it with you.
ReplyDeleteI know I am going to crushed for this - but I spoke with a co-worker who is on the school board of a suburb of a large city in the Northeast. They said they replaced their fields with turf 10 years ago, and it has worked out really well. They bought special maintenance equipment, so the condition is still good, even though they will have to replace it eventually. But they said that there was a savings from maintenance, and they have gotten a lot more use out of the fields. (They had fields that were rocky or the grass didn't grow, so they had their own issues with grass fields that I'm not sure we have here.) When they installed it, people were angry about the health hazards too. Anyway, just another perspective.
ReplyDelete@2:16
ReplyDeleteThe HS has had turf since the 1970s. I guess that didn't stop you from buying a house in Lebo.
3:09, 10:30 made a comment about block parties, I think getting at the fact that we are all neighbors here whatever we may or may not think.
ReplyDeleteAnother nonsensical comment, 3:58.
ReplyDeleteI didn't check out the HS stadium. I could've cared less whether it was paved in gold or pounded into hard-pack.
I knew where the high school was, where the neighorhood elementaey was. Did I visit either, go inside, tour the grounds... no.
I bought a home here- because I like the house, liked the neighborhood, liked the access to work & town, like the Washington Rd business district, the golf course, ice rink and of course the school district's reputation.
I could've have easily chosen USC or Peters.
I can tell you turf or not at the stadium didn't even appear on the radar.
So what's your point?
Are you trying to infer we put in turf to discourage people from buying gomes in Lebo?
Come on you can debate better than that I hope.
Did you make the block party comment as well?
Artificial turf is just another local issue to divide Mt. Lebanon residents, and division is a useful tool in the hands of those who want power.
ReplyDeleteThe real issue in this town isn't turf; it's whether a handful of special interests get their toys. Facts:
• The pro-turf people have not produced one shred of evidence that artificial turf will translate into more home sales.
• The pro-turf people have not produced one shred of evidence that artificial turf will increase property values.
• The Commission has not produced one legitimate study on the economic benefits of artificial turf as it applies to Mt. Lebanon.
• The target group for which artificial turf is intended, the field sports, represents approximately 8 to 12 percent of the population of Mt. Lebanon.
• Anecdotal evidence is not scientifically or statistically valid - for either side in this debate. Anyone can bring up conversations with neighbors or overheard remarks, but that is hardly compelling evidence.
• Discrediting your opponent's experts while praising your own is only valid if you are an expert in the subject at hand - in this case the environmental aspects of artificial turf.
• Cherry-picking experts that support your own prejudices only keeps the division in the community alive, ensuring that the plutocrats get their way.
What the plutocrats want is toys for their kids and power over you - and they're achieving it because you're all suckers!
Enough about block parties. Sigh. How many of you are going to do or say something to the commissioners? Other than the resident on Cedar who will have a sign, what are the rest of the readers going to do about this? You know, they are going ahead with this. I have some unneighborly comments in my spam folder from pro turf people. They are pretty confident that this is going through and all we are going to do is complain about it here.
ReplyDeleteElaine
5:32, excellent points as are yours, Elaine.
ReplyDeleteBut, how do you enter into rational conversation with people that suggest $1.2 million of turf is needed to keep our kids healthy and active, then turn around and suggest it will stimulate the local economy through Gatorade and ice cream sales.
5:32
ReplyDeleteSo if the Connecticut public health toxicologist is biased against turf because his background in public health, science and chemistry has led him astray, who would be in the desirable neutral position to provide relevant health information on this topic? Are you saying we shouldn't think about public health in reference to a decision to turf a field that supposedly provides our children with greater access to recreational sports?
Elaine, When you get your RTK re: turf tomorrow, you will see what people in Mt Lebanon have said or done to address the commission about this topic.
ReplyDeletePlease don't say that people need to run. We won't have another election for two years. The problems are here. Now. Today. For those readers who feel their rights have been violated, maybe the ACLU would help. http://www.aclupa.org/
ReplyDeleteAsthma and allergies are still considered disabilities under the ADA, even if symptoms are controlled by medication. If your child won't be able to play because of the artificial turf, may a call to the United States Department of Justice might be helpful. http://www.ada.gov/contact_drs.htm
Cedar Blvd. residents might be able to file a suit against the commission. You have standing. I learned about standing when I took Kristen Linfante to court. I didn't have standing because I was not a Democrat. Kristen should be familiar with that, as well.
Elaine
EG:
ReplyDeleteYour points at 5:33 PM are well taken, but I suspect that the commission chambers could be packed with anti-turf people and it would make no difference at all.
What will eventually make a difference in this town is an independent political organization (the Mt. Lebanon Independent Party?) that is well funded; with the emphasis on "well funded!" Some people don't like the idea of "money in politics," but I disagree. Money is a tool; if it is misused it isn't the money's fault. We had a great candidate for State Representative in George Brown, whose only impediment was lack of money.
For those who think the better idea is to reform the local Republican Party, or try and change the direction of the Democratic Party - forget it; unless all of the principals of those organizations are indicted it's not going to happen.
5:57 PM
ReplyDeleteWhat I said was that the bigger issue is the purposeful division of MTL residents into pro-turf and con-turf for the express purpose of gaining power (the people who are doing this don't care about public health). I then suggested that each side will look for experts that support their own biases while trying to discredit the other side's experts. What is so damn hard to understand about that?!
Too many politicians talking out of two sides of their mouths. Too much hot air and diarrhea out of the mouth from the attorneys. I'm thinking the attorneys that support the turf are looking at potential lawsuits which they can be benefit from! Ethics violations! Manipulating political interests for pecuniary gain!!! The Bar Association would not like to hear about this!
ReplyDelete12:33, that introduction also talked about his heavy involvement in Softball. As soon as I saw that, I knew he was a turfer.
ReplyDeleteNo conflict of interest there. Just like with our other turfers on the commission.
Why on earth should I trust this scientist about toxic turf? Isn't this the same crowd who is telling us that global warming is real or that vaccinations don't cause autism?
ReplyDeleteI wasn't going to publish the 8:41 AM, but had a change of heart. I thought it would be fun to show how people will believe what they want to believe. I take it that you never had your kids vaccinated, 8:41 AM. Does your wife know that you feel this way?
ReplyDeleteElaine
8:41 do know how stupid you sound ?
ReplyDelete8:41 am See the most recent issue (Jan 2014) of the scientific journal, Epidemiology, on findings indicating that exposure to air pollution appears to increase the risk for autism among people who carry a genetic disposition for the neurodevelopment disorder.
ReplyDeletehttp://journals.lww.com/epidem/pages/default.aspx
http://www.chla.org/site/c.ipINKTOAJsG/b.7970555/k.530F/Heather_Volk_PhD_Lab.htm#.UxC08NxhPwI
http://keck.usc.edu/About/Administrative_Offices/Office_of_Public_Relations_and_Marketing/News/Detail/2013__pr_marketing__fall__campbell_volk_epidemiology_120213
8:41, you're corrrect. You shouldn't take the word of this scientist. Or rely on info from Elaine, her wingnuts or the ESB.
ReplyDeleteBut saying that, who's opinion do you think we should accept. Linfante's? Brumfield's? Bendel's? Franklin's?
How about FieldTurf's 'unbiased' opinion on turf?
The scientist could indeed have an agenda, but then again maybe he's right. Are you prepared to roll the dice with kids health and environmental consequences.
There was a time asbestos was used everywhere, the 'experts' said it was safe.
For me, common sense tells me the scientist might be right.
Why would we forbide the dumping of old tires in our landfills, but find it perfectly safe to grind them up and spread them all over kids' athletic fields?!!!
Doesn't that strike you as odd?
They're not safe to put in a dump, but they're OK for kids to play on and ingest!
How about your RTK? Did Brumfield kill it?
ReplyDeleteI am going to be putting up a new post about this. To answer your question, 10:48 PM, Brumfield only sent out one email and that was the snarky email response to me. Imagine that. Finally got a Brumfield email in a RTK!
ReplyDeleteElaine
The scientists highlighted in this video work for non-profits, unlike the engineers, landscape architects and turf vendors that have been selling turf to Mt Lebanon.
ReplyDeleteOnce grass fields are a thing of the past in Mt Lebanon, youth sports will rely less on seasons and then after a while, that will get old too.
ReplyDeleteFrom today's Providence paper regarding college lacrosse being played in the winter (with mention of a turf field damaged and made unusable due to snow):
http://www.providencejournal.com/sports/college/content/20140301-jim-donaldson-shouldn-t-lacrosse-be-more-of-a-spring-thing.ece