A Lebo Citizens reader shared some news that we have all been waiting for.
2013 SAT Scores for Public Schools
I’ve been "waiting" for MTLSD to release the SAT scores for 2013. Other districts reported these via press releases a month ago. I was able to locate them on my own.
Maybe the scores were not reported because 1) MTLSH was 14th in the state and 2) they were the lowest average SAT scores since the 3 part test began to be administered in 2006, 8 years ago. They may be the lowest scores ever but I didn’t go back beyond 2006 in this summary. This doesn’t look like a promising direction for SAT scores… which of all the countless tests that are administered to students, these actually carry some weight.
Here are the averages:
| 2013 | 2012 | 2011 | 2010 | 2009 | 2008 | 2007 | 2006 |
| 1684 | 1695 | 1737 | 1690 | 1714 | 1707 | 1703 | 1741 |
The School Board/Superintendent will claim the reduction from 2012 is only 0.65%, a statistically insignificant number. They cannot wiggle out of the reduction from 2006 being 3.3%, which is significant, particularly over a time period where the average cost per student increased by approximately $1,000/student $2,170 or 19.9%.
How much "credit" did they take for the improvement from 2010 to 2011?
ReplyDeleteWait wait wait. This can't be. I thought the new school was an "investment" and would help our kids achieve? Just like the turf will suddenly result in pro scouts flooding our little slice of suburbia...(oops, it's not actually about that. It's about real estate values. No, I think I have that wrong. It's about additional playing slots. Geez, now I'm all confused on the selling points.)
ReplyDeleteI'm getting shirts made that read:
"I spent $113 million on a new high school and all I got was this lousy SAT score"
Here is where we part ways, Elaine, though respectfully.
ReplyDeleteStandardized tests as a way to judge a learner's competency are about as useful as if someone gave you a test on being a competent blogger (which they would do if the testing industry could make money off of it) ... Can Pearson or ETS judge you in a 2-hour snapshot? What if you are a good blogger, but a bad test-taker? What if you demonstrate your knowledge better through action in the world rather than bubbles on a sheet?
Learning is a process, not a thing. The testing industry -- in an unholy corporate-government alliance -- is turning our kids into nothing more than data points and widgets to cash in on.
If you want to take a shot at the HS, go after the bullying culture and lack of diversity. Test scores do little more than measure the extent to which kids taking the test might have grown up in families similar to the people who wrote the tests.
- Jason Margolis
There lies the problem... Mt Lebanon can't stop a student from taking the test as they do for other tests. I've been asked several times to keep my son home "sick" as to not "screw up" Mt Lebanon's overall score. From talking to some of my older neighbors this has been going on for some time. It's ok as long as the lie justifies the wanted outcome.
ReplyDeleteJason, this is one reader's opinion. I am not an educator. I'm not taking any shots at anyone. In fact, I'm a bad test taker, and an average blogger.
ReplyDeleteI think the point that was being made is that this information was not shared with parents.
Elaine
Amen, Jason. I could not agree with you more. Although this blog post is about the SAT scores - your statements apply to the PSSAs/Keystone exams as well. Our kids are over-tested and it's really impacting their education. Thank you for your comments, Jason. In my opinion, you get it.
ReplyDelete-Ann Becker
11:36am. Your can't keep your child home "sick" from the standardized tests. There are make-up days and every student is required to take the exams. The schools are required to have a certain percentage of participation or else they will not make AYP (academic yearly progress) rating. The only way for your child's score to not be counted is to opt your child out of the standardized tests.
ReplyDeleteJust wait now that Common Core is the law of the land. My gifted boy is begging to get out. My girl that struggles is a happy camper. She no longer is stressed to learn. Looks as if I will end my stay-at-home routine and return to work to pay for private schooling. Our poor youngest will pay the price by being thrown in daycare. But they ALL can play soccer and lacrosse in the rain so WHY worry?
ReplyDeleteSee:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.mtlsd.org/district/stuff/2009/student%20outcomes%20report_nov_%202011.pdf
November 2011 report said 2011 scores were a 5 year high!
With the exclamation point!
What will the report say now?
Maybe they will just show a question mark!
11:53 there are ways around this. My daughter was a Mt Lebanon teacher and her first year she had several students that today would be considered as being on the Autism spectrum that ruined her class overall score. Older teachers told her to next year "dump them". She couldn't believe that a teacher would even consider such a move. She ended up burning out after 7 years and quit. Every once in a while she talks about writing a book about her teaching experiences in Mt Lebanon but has several brothers still in the area and fears that their kids would be hurt.
ReplyDeleteNot seeing an exclamation point, 12:00 PM.
ReplyDeleteElaine
1. Mt Lebanon cannot influence the reporting of SAT scores because it cannot control the subjects being tested.
ReplyDelete2. Mt Lebanon did not report these scores, or the trend, to the public.
3. Mt Lebanon children are grossly over tested, reflecting a state-wide and national trend. Parents are not aware of how much time their student spend in testing.
4. Mt Lebanon teaches to the required tests in school.
5. After mandated tests are completed in the spring, the educational experience of the district's students changes substantially.
6. The SAT is a long-standing test used to help make college admission decisions.
7. Students who do exceptionally well on the SAT are more likely to receive admission as well as excellent financial aid or scholarship offers. The opposite is also true; poor performance results in fewer admissions and benefits.
8. Student SAT performance still matters, despite legitimate concerns about the influence of nonacademic student variables on the outcome.
Elaine -
ReplyDeleteRegarding the 12:00 comment. I reviewed the document provided in his/her link. There really is an exclamation point in the document on page 5.
The November 2011 Student Outcomes Report states this under "SAT"
"2011-Results are a 5 year high for the District!"
Jason, while the SATs may not be a very good measure of student or teacher performance, one measure is to follow freshman going on to college.
ReplyDeleteThe following link is interesting:
http://triblive.com/mobile/1187298-81/college-students-pennsylvania-remedial-math-percent-schools-student-course-department
"Perhaps the biggest problem is that many students graduate from high school without the academic skills they need to succeed in college.
According to the state Department of Education, one in three recent high school graduates who attend Pennsylvania's public universities and community colleges takes at least one remedial course to catch up with their peers in math, reading or English.
"What we're finding is a lot of students are dropping out of college because they weren't prepared," said department spokeswoman Leah Harris."
According to a PDE study several years ago (which I'll need to dig up) approximately 1 out 4 MTLSD graduates needed remedial courses as incoming freshman at Pennsylvania colleges and universities.
Chart
ReplyDeleteThank you, 3:01 PM!
ReplyDeleteElaine
New results are a 5 year LOW for the District!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteThat's pretty good, 3:01. Now could you show the cost per student for the same years and its corresponding trend line?
ReplyDeleteHold on, 3:01 PM. I am trying to get those numbers from the CAFR.
ReplyDeleteI see how this supports the decision you made last summer, 3:01 PM. ;)
Elaine
From the school district's 2013 CAFR- Schedule of Total Expenditures.
ReplyDeleteCost per student
2006 - $14,104
2007 - $12,956
2008 - $13,406
2009 - $13,818
2010 - $14,451
2011 - $15,015
2012 - $17,078
2013 - $23,259
Dr Margolis,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on the importance of a standardized measure to assess scholastic performance. My personal opinion is that the SAT is not the best measure of scholastic aptitude; but my issue goes beyond the measurement system.
What does Mt Lebanon, or any school district do with these scores? The truth is that they really do very little.
Poor scores are explained away by union brass who argue that the material that they have to work with doesn't have a solid foundation at home and that the younger generation lacks the proper discipline in the classroom. Other times we hear that the school districts don't have the resources that they need to achieve satisfactory results; and finally there is the all to familiar argument that if teacher pay was higher then the achievement scores would improve.
One of the fundamental disconnects of No Child Left Behind was the lack of a Closed Loop Process. As we both know there isn't a mandate for an institutionalized program either at a state or school district level that forces a process for corrective action. Instead, the fingers are pointed at the children.
There are many lesson's in Rob O'Neill's story. One is a testament to our military's ability to transform anybody into an ultimate war fighter. In other words, with the proper educational system anyone can learn.
Professionally speaking, what is your opinion of Mt Lebanon's institutionalized corrective action process, or perhaps I should say the way the SD reacts to standardized test scores?
I compared the SAT scores reported by the state for 2013 SAT scores and those that were used to calculate the School Performance Profile that Dr. Steinhauer touted at the meeting on Monday.
ReplyDeleteI found a disparity between the two sets of numbers:
The SAT scores reported by the state in the SAT Score report are much lower than the SAT scores used to calculated the Mt Lebanon High School's School Performance Profile for 2013-2014.
Here is the School Performance profile:
http://paschoolperformance.org/Profile/4377
Here are the SAT numbers contained with the latest School Performance Profile:
Math 578.08
Reading 572.62
Writing 582.78
Those numbers were used to calculate MtL's very high score.
But here are the 2013 SAT Scores reported independently by the state:
Math 573
Reading 553
Writing 559
7:28 PM, I understand that the column of numbers that you listed includes capital projects. The Cost Per Pupil General Fund on page 116 of the pdf is the column to use. Numbers are:
ReplyDelete2006 10,914
2007 11,773
2008 12,056
2009 12,479
2010 12,544
2011 12,583
2012 12,816
2013 13,084
The difference is $2170 or an increase of 19.9%
Elaine
John (and please just call me Jason) - I haven't been around here long enough to know what MTLSD does with test scores or how they 'react' to them... no SD can really do that much with them because they do not provide teachers information in a way that it is usable.
ReplyDeleteOften, the #s come, and the kid is already on to the next grade. That is why I believe we should professionalize the teaching force and trust in them to create the assessments which they can then use immediately to evaluate student performance as well as ways they themselves might need to change their instruction to reach more kids.
What schools call "data" to create "data-driven decision making" is in fact a sham... The meaningless #s are not actionable for teachers. There's more data in the level of engagement in a kids' eyes than in a decade's worth of PSSA scores.
Also, I do not believe you need to spend $23K/student to have students be successful. First, get rid oh your bells and whistles. If the kids are generally fed and secure at home (as most MTLSD kids are), all a good teacher really needs is a tree and a book and they can teach kids. There is no need to build Babylonian Towers. In fact, with so much available on line these days, physical space is less and less important... the real purpose of teaching and teachers moving forward will be about forming and furthering relationships: between students and teachers, students and students, and student and content.
- Jason M.
CAFR is here.
ReplyDeleteElaine
The issue of kids who need remedial services In college in regards to reading, writing and math is not new. My oldest graduated in 2004 and needed additional remedial classes which she completed at ACC the summer after she graduated. Many students at that time needed remedial classes. I remember my oldest (who is disabled) had a 3.7 at the end of Junior year. Senior year, the Director of Special Ed., who had been trying since middle to get rid of her, had her scheduled with a teacher, who tested the kids based only on lectures which the answers had to be verbatim of what he said in class.
ReplyDeleteMy youngest was in gifted. The Gifted English in Junior and Senior year was comprised of writing more and more papers. No emphasis on teaching the students higher skills for writing and refinement.
Mt. Lebanon only wants all students to fit in to a cookie mold. There is no "Maslow's Hiearchy of Needs!" The students are not taught the concept of self actualization!
Elaine, yes the capital projects are in the numbers presented by 7:28, but aren't those capital projects part of the total budget used to educated the students?
ReplyDeleteCafeteria tables and chairs were added to the high school renovation as capital improvements.
Would we send these to a full day of school and not provide them with tables and chairs for lunch?
Would they put on school performances in the auditorium without a sound system and stage curtains?
Remember we were sold the HS renovation as an essential element of a 21st century education, therefore that cost is a part of the cost per student.
High test scores can provide access to grants. For example, in the past, high test scores from the School Performance Profiles made schools eligible for grant money ($25k/school -- not per district). So the schools are motivated to look competitive with high test scores, and to benefit from winning grant money.
ReplyDeleteTest scores are also used to identify kids for services. The services provided are predominantly remedial. If you have a smart kid, don't expect noticeable benefits from high test scores until at least high school, and then the kids are offered more challenging classes.
From 9:05: to 10:04: My Gifted child was never offered more challenging classes at any time. By her Junior year, we were advised to enrolled her for additional classes at Pitt on our own nickel. I paid private tutors for 4 years for both of my children. It was not cheap and cost more than 1 year of local taxes of what we paid on our house! How is this a free and appropriate public education?
ReplyDeleteI can see why TERC math is used in mtl; they are hoping no one will challenge their numbers.
ReplyDeleteHere is the latest recap front the district on all of their scores. The SAT and ACT numbers in the presentation materials are higher than the numbers reported by the state across the board.
http://www.mtlsd.org/District/Stuff/SOR_Board_Presentation_November_2014.pdf
Just looking for some integrity...haven't found it yet.
We started merit pay with the 2010 teachers' contract. The scores dropped that year to 1690, now they are 1684. We appear to be paying for something we are not getting. Why?
ReplyDelete1) The Board has no curriculum committee.
2) The Board has no finance committee.
3) Teachers always get an "S" rating, there is no unsatisfactory rating.
4) The Board and the Administrators put up with this travesty.
5) The Parents know it is wrong but are afraid to say anything for fear of retaliation against their children.
The worst thing that happened to our schools was allowing public service unions.
It is time to eliminate merit pay and tie the pay scale of all school employees to the inflation rate reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. You will discover that is below the cost of teachers moving up a step each year.That's rotten and so is the delayed reporting of poor test scores.
Interesting that the SAT scores were down and got mentioned here. Yet, the school overall performance scores, which were released earlier this month, were not mentioned.
ReplyDeleteMTL High School's 93.3 was second in the region only to Pine-Richland's 94.4--making Lebo in the top 1% in the state.
Mellon MS had a 92.2. Jefferson MS had a 86.4.
No need to mention that, 7:32 AM. MTLSD already covered it.
ReplyDeleteElaine
Most of that $2,170 and 19.9% increase in average cost per Lebo student went for teachers pensions and not classroom instruction or improved curriculum. And student performance declined, which also serves to prove that throwing more money to public education will not improve student performance. It's not for the children, it's for the unionized, tenured teachers aided and abetted by a union backed state legislature and about-to-be governor !
ReplyDeleteSomething odd about that CAFR report, though I must admit I'm by no means a professional accountant.
ReplyDeletePn pdf page 33 under Total Budgeted Annual Expenditures for 2013-14 it shows a figue of $83,164,503.
For Total number of students on page 117 it shows 5,268 for 2013.
So $83,164,503 divided by 5,268 = $15,786.73 would be theindicated budgeted spending as a cost/student number.
Far different than Elaine's $13,084 and 7:28's $23,259.
Could someone explain the differences please?
Obviously a budgeted amount is not the final audited amount, but shouldn't Elaine's number and the $15,786.73 be closer?
You're all missing the big picture with respect to the SAT scores and the "how do they [the board] use them?".
ReplyDeleteYes, the scores on their own are useless and aren't a true measure of one's potential. But they are one of a few universal measurements that gauge academic performance, good or bad, accurate or not.
Here's one issue not mentioned, though, and the point of my post. The school board never hesitates to use SAT scores as a selling point for our town. In their minds, high scores on standardized tests are somehow a reflection of all the money spent, a good "investment". Now we see a drop in the scores stacked up right alongside one of the largest individual "investments" in state history (the ridiculous, penitentiary-like new high school). Kind of makes ALL the investment seem like a fool's errand. So what do they do? They try to hide it. they try to bury their one big talking point when it doesn't quite pan out.
The school board can't have it both ways. If they want to continue throwing good money after bad, then they should very publicly reap what they sow. Of course, that would require an underlying commitment to transparency and respect for the community, something the school board hasn't demonstrated in well over a decade.
A 19.9% increase during the period from the first half of 2006 to the last half of 2013 is not too bad. Using CPI statistics from the Bureau of Labor Statistics for the Pittsburgh, PA area, the first half of 2006 had a CPI index of 194.8 with the second half of 2013 ending at 235.7.
ReplyDeleteThis is an increase of 20.99% during this period. National CPI figures are lower but one would think most goods and services for the district are regionally purchased. So a 19.9% increase is roughly on par with the regional CPI.
Interesting! A few thoughts (former resident here):
ReplyDeleteOur view was that Lebo is more concerned about how things "look" rather than how things are. In terms of schools, our kids' schools were lovely (totally renovated). The quality of the education happening inside those buildings was suspect at best. When we arrived back on the East Coast, my kids were 1.5-2 years behind in math (ugh...TERC), behind in language arts (really critical thinking), and science...well that really doesn't exist in the elementary schools in Lebo. (Even I learned experimental design as a fourth grader in my hick elementary school in upstate New York.)
Unfortunately, the Board and citizens in Lebo decided to ask for tax increases to make the buildings (and fields) pretty rather than asking for money to improve the quality of the education. I get that costs were going up, but when my taxes were going up so rapidly to pay for the new high school I was not happy.
In terms of SAT scores, I do agree that tests aren't the end all and be all but they are one universal measure (since PSSA is PA only). What I can tell you is the average SAT at our high school here was 1903 two years ago; I expect it is higher now (solid trend). The district was noted by Newsweek for closing the achievement gap for student sub-groups. (The district has a large ELL population and will be majority minority soon.)
Our high school building? Straight out of the 70s. The middle schools? Ugly cement structures. The quality of education in these "dumps"? Superb.
And since it is the Lebo Citizens blog: my property taxes are lower here than they were in Lebo. My overall tax burden is significantly lower. Don't get me wrong, my taxes are still pretty high. But I think the powers that be spend the taxes in a very prudent way.
The difference is that the citizenry in my new town values education first and foremost. In my opinion, sports rule in Lebo...education isn't even a close second. You can still get a great quality education in Lebo...and quite a few kids do...but for most of the kids it is a very average education.
Just my two cents. And thanks to one of your frequent commentators for sending me this thread.
The mean for these scores is 1708.75. Using standard deviations for sample populations (N-1) since we aren't looking at the entire population (N) of test scores the standard deviation is 19.04.
ReplyDeleteSo the range of scores within one standard deviation is from 1689 to 1727. So while this year was a down year, there were two up years in the sample.
Overall the scores are pretty steady except 2006. What were those students doing? They were up by nearly two standard deviations. Class of the Stars.
9:35 pm The point is that the trend is in the wrong direction and the SAT matters, while these other tests and accolades that we hear so much about, don't. This inquiry about the SATs would not have been made if the information was readily available in a predictable manner and presented authentically. Instead, it is buried within lengthy reports and presented in graphs by cluster so that the overall performance and trend for scores remains hidden.
ReplyDeleteWhen I send my kid to high school, I am concerned about the impact of this ongoing construction, the finances of the district, the poor leadership, and I am growing more and more concerned about what kind of teaching is actually going on in these schools. I've got one foot out the door.
To 11:00 - Yes while the trend is down albeit for a very small sample size, my post is that generally these scores are mostly within a standard deviation, again for a small sample size.
ReplyDeleteNot arguing your score availability and other points just making a statistical statement that these scores. Except for 2006, they not that different and appear to be just standard variations. If the score next year was 1725 it should just be considered a score that fits the norm and be provided without exclamation points. :-)
The scores are a Standard deviation in the wrong direction.
ReplyDeleteIsn't the SATs a test that you pay to take? So how many didn't take it? What happens if kids in "District Z" all decide to take the test including those students that aren't in any manner ready for college level work. The in "District X" only the very gifted, highly advanced students took the test? If a school district keeps their middle and bottom students from taking the test then their scores will be much higher than the one that pushes ALL their students to take the test. Guess which one is Mt Lebanon?
ReplyDelete"a Standard deviation is the wrong direction"
ReplyDeleteI wonder what Galton would have thought on that. Or should that be noted as sarcasm.
From a score analysis framework, another method is to throw out the high and low scores and calculate standard deviations and/or trend. If this was done then caculating the stddev in my head it would appear that 2010 score falls outside of one stddev and I would think the trendline would be relatively flat. I'll do the calculations later if anyone is interested.
Not saying that this should be done in this case as there are no real outlier scores either high or low. I'm not looking for an argument. It's just that statistically there's not much variation in the scores provided.
If someone has a 20 or 30 year record of scores prior to 2005 and the two-part scores from 2005 onward and post them I'll be happy to do the calculations.
So for all this talk of SAT scores which are basically steady as someone mentioned, something that hasn't been steady is district expenditures.
ReplyDeleteFor that steadiness in test scores we pay on average $2 million more each year to the district for their services. Not counting the underfunded pensions!
A few years ago, I researched student achievement in Mt. Lebanon. As part of that effort, I summarized data from PSSA and SAT testing going back to 2000 (and other data like scholarship awards) in a short report: Statistical evidence on recent trends in Mt. Lebanon student achievement. I wrote the report because I was seeing evidence consistent with the hypothesis that the school district, while moving more and more students beyond mere "basic" levels of achievement, was starting to move fewer and fewer students to the highest levels of achievement.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, if you want to go back a few more years in your SAT trends, you can get the data from my report.
To 9:06AM - Thanks for that. I'll take a detailed look. Unless the numbers are dramatically different over that period the stddev will remain roughly the same. If someone has SAT data from the period of 1990 - 2000, or earlier, I'll add it to these numbers so graciously provided. A very nice analysis.
ReplyDeleteThe aspect I find most interesting is the year-on-year variability as compared to other districts. Year-on-year the other district scores don't deviate as much. Yes, the numbers are on a downtrend in MtL but I find the annual variability in certain areas as more interesting. Is there a reason for this annual bouncing provided it is outside a normal distribution?
It is nice to see that nationally our students are high performers and that their performance is being compared to USC and NA as opposed to seeing if the district is keeping up with mid-tier (average scoring) districts. There's a positive worthy of celebration. Good job students! In spite of apparently inferior curriculum and teachers you are outperforming the average by a large amount.
To 8:36AM - Numbers were provided earlier regarding district spending increases - using the numbers provided by Elaine - are in line with the CPI numbers for the Pittsburgh area provided by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. The district increased spending by 19.9% over the provided period while the Pittsburgh CPI increased by 20.99%. IMO, I'd say it's a wash as the increase is generally in line with CPI. The basket of goods and services is most likely different but trying to figure that out at a level granular to be credible would be an enormous undertaking.
Related to spending, though I have not seen it in this post or the comments, I would caution in advance against comparing annual per student costs across districts. To generate a valid cross-district comparison a number of variables would need to be baselined. To name just a few: number of buildings, number of teachers, contract variable costs, number of students send to special education schools, transportation costs, etc. etc. Even energy costs per square foot of building could be a consideration. Some buildings use more energy than others. I haven't seen a breakout of the provided numbers, but if costs like transportation or energy costs are not included, my apologies.
However, if these costs are incorporated and someone states USC is spending a lower amount per student than MtL but achieving better results, that is slippery ground. The first question would rightly be whether variables have been baselined to provide an apples-to-apples comparison. Unless baselined such a comparison is questionable. Now if USC was spending $7,500 per student and achieving these results that would be eye-opening and something to be investigated. That investigation would still require the baselining to be performed. But a difference of $2,000 to 3,000 wouldn't raise my eyes unless the numbers were accompanied by a comparative baseline.
http://www.cato.org/blog/public-school-spending-theres-chart While I by no means claim to totally understand CPIs, indexes, CAFR reports and such— people that do get paid to evaluate this stuff seem to paint a different picture than the one offered by those claiming MTLSD expenditures are mirroring the CPI. Here's another inyeresting article: http://www.city-journal.org/2012/22_2_public-education-spending.html
ReplyDelete