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| Commissioner Kelly Fraasch with Wayne Jones, Parks Advisory Board |
This booth wanted to be right next to Sandy Baker's booth, but unfortunately, it didn't work out for them. I'm not sure why they were even allowed to attend since they are not big on coexisting with nature.
In fact, the biggest deer hater would not face me when I took pictures. She wouldn't allow me to photograph her. Hey! Just like He Who Shall Not Be Named!
None of the people at their tent would face me. I guess they are ashamed of their behavior. Their big thing was kill the deer to protect our ecosystem.
I learned so much today from Sandy Baker. Free seminars are set for the Mt. Lebanon Public Library Sunday, from 2 to 4 p.m. and Monday, from 10 to 11:30 a.m. and 1 to 3 p.m. Hope you can all attend.
So it would appear that the pro-kill "ladies'" new campaign is "responsible stewardship of our ecosystem". I thought this was all about car-deer collisions, which is less than 2% of all collisions with injury in Mt. Lebanon. So what's wrong with Lebo's ecosystem? It appears very healthy, and I haven't heard of any complaints. Was there an environmental impact study done that I missed? Both campaigns are a lie and totally disingenuous. Why can't they campaign on the truth, which is that they want to turn Lebo into a private bow hunting club and AR-15 assault rifle shooting gallery to protect their tulips? Why do they have to lie, and make up disingenuous campaigns?
ReplyDeleteI would feel sorry for these "ladies" if they weren't so murderous and intent on inflicting suffering and death on others, and exposing all of Mt. Lebanon families to danger from shooters and hunters, for tulips, and their own personal agendas. Still, it's hard to imagine the poverty of their inner lives. Incomprehensible.
ReplyDeleteBelow are some scientific study results on the complex topic of ecosystems and biodiversity of northeastern and mid-atlantic forests and deer.
ReplyDelete"Acid rain is more responsible than white-tailed deer for forests not regenerating, claims [Bill Sharpe] a Penn State College of Agricultural Sciences forest hydrologist ... They can kill all the deer, but it will take a lot more than that to fix the forests." Penn State Expert Blames Forest Problem on Acid Rain, Not Deer", Penn State Live, 5/17/02. In addition, in a recent landmark study, "Regional-Scale Assessment of Deer Impacts on Vegetation Within Western Connecticut, USA", Angela C. Rutherford, et al., School of Forestry and Environmental Studies, Yale University, Journal of Wildlife Management 74(6):1257-1263; 2010: DOI:10.2193/2009-068, concluded that deer density is not a leading factor determining variation in vegetation impacts. Furthermore, a study from Ohio University, "Indirect Effects of a Keystone Herbivore Elevate Local Animal Diversity", Katherine R. Greenwalk, et al., Department of Evolution, Ecology, and Organismal Biology, Ohio State University, Journal of Wildlife Management 72(6):1318-1321; 2008, concluded that management of deer populations (e.g., via culling, sterilization, or carnivore reintroduction) could have the unintended effect of reducing local diversity of herpetofauna and invertebrates.
Are deer responsible for lack of regeneration and biodiversity loss?
ReplyDeleteBy Laura Simon, Wildlife Ecologist for the Humane Society of the United States. Ms. Simon is a recognized national expert on deer issues. She graduated from the Yale School of Forestry and Environmental Studies (1989) with a Master’s Degree in Environmental Management with a special focus on wildlife.
While it is easy to point the finger at deer and blame them for our forest regeneration woes, the reality is that our ecosystem issues are fraught with complexity, and also subject to human aesthetic preferences which may or may not be grounded in any sort of biological reality. For example, we may want to see more biodiversity in certain areas because we are used to having seen it there in the past. Yet nature is not static. A condition in which a forest floor was carpeted with wild flowers can rapidly transition into another state as a result of forest succession. Certain plant species are shaded out as trees mature and the forest canopy closes. Later successional stages are, by their very nature, less diverse.
While we may want to see a certain flower grow somewhere doesn’t mean it "should" be there. Take the case of certain trillium, which are often used as an indicator of high deer abundance. Some research shows that soil acidity is a much stronger determinant of where purple trillium and many important timber species (red oak, sugar maple, quaking aspen, etc) will grow, rather than deer density levels. (Penn State College of Agricultural Sciences News Release, May 17 2002).
The impact of deer on exotic and invasive species is another complex issue. Deer appear to control the spread of certain invasive plant species while helping to proliferate others. The lack of an understory in eastern hemlock forests is often attributed to deer, yet it is simply a characteristic of older hemlock stands that they be relatively depopulate of understory. The less visible yet catastrophic impact of the wooly adelgid is killing entire stands of hemlock and dramatically changing ecological conditions in the riparian areas these trees favor. How ecological processes are affected by deer browsing is not as simple as meets the eye.
We are not denying that deer can have a significant impact on our northeastern forests. Deer impacts can be very visible and deer browsing can unquestionably alter forest structure. However, the bottom line is that single species management has never been a viable way to manage a complex, multi-faceted problem. By intensively managing one component of a forest, the result may be unforeseen impacts on other components, such as the spread of certain invasive, non-native plant species. There simply has not been enough time since the return of deer and forests both to greater abundance and health than in the past for us to understand (and properly plan for how to influence if necessary) the complex ecological associations involved.
"Much of the northeastern forested landscape are subject to any number of direct and indirect influences that together have created the conditions that we see today. These influences run the gamut from acid rain, insect damage, disease, development, pollution, loss of soil fertility, herbivory, invasive and other competing plant species, parasitic organisms, and landscape fragmentation, among other factors. New research is even showing the potentially huge but largely invisible impact of introduced, non-native earthworms as significant influences on forest ecology. It is vital in addressing the issue of deer-human conflicts that we not use deer as scapegoats for larger and more systemic problems." Laura Simon, Wildlife Ecologist, The Humane Society of the United States.
ReplyDelete"If" Pa's deer population is having a negative impact on forest regeneration the cause is the mismanagement by the Pa Game Commission (PGC). The deer are artificially propagated on a Maximum Sustained Yield (M.S.Y.) principle for their hunter constituents to produce enough targets for hunters.
ReplyDelete"Deer are [artificially] managed on a Maximum Sustained Yield (M.S.Y.) principle to produce surpluses for hunter recreation. One M.S.Y. method is to kill excesses of bucks in order to alter the natural 1 to 1 male/female sex ratio, leaving 5 to 15 females for each male. This maximizes fawn production. Another M.S.Y. method is habitat manipulation. For example, the Wildlife Division of the Department of Natural Resources (DNR) in Michigan increased the deer herd from 400,000 to one million by clear cutting 1.3 million acres of state forest to create deer browse. According to officials, this was done "because a forest managed by nature cannot produce a fraction of the deer needed by half a million hunters." (The American Hunting Myth, Ron Baker, 1985)
The PGC spends more than 40% of its $80 million budget on wildlife habitat improvements for game species. The state’s deer are intentionally managed for “maximum sustained yield” to produce more targets for their hunting constituents. Contrast this with the fact that only 2.87 % of their budget is directed toward non-game species, and their priorities become pretty clear.
"In an interview a few years ago, Gary Alt described how he felt when he took the job as director of the PGC's deer management section. He looked at the history of deer mgt in the state and saw that every biologist who had ever suggested lowering the number of deer to a level more compatible with the amount of available habitat had been fired, transferred or quit. On the verge of offering similar advice of his own ... 'I thought, My God, I'm going to get killed.' ...When Alt was traveling the state doing lectures for sportsmen, things were so hot that he was advised to wear a bulletproof vest and have an escape route planned for any hall he entered." http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/regional/s_285817.html#axzz3FmRMSdyE
ReplyDeletePa. Game Commission will continue practice of boosting deer population in certain areas
[http://triblive.com/sports/outdoors/8054234-74/deer-doe-commission#axzz3WpWZGNpf]
By Bob Frye
Monday, March 30, 2015, 10:51 p.m.
HARRISBURG — Pennsylvania Game Commission biologists next week will recommend offering enough antlerless deer licenses to maintain deer herds at their current levels across most of the state.
Commissioners likely will tweak those suggestions to allow deer populations to actually grow, said board president Dave Putnam of Centre County. That's what they've been doing for years, albeit without saying so, he said.
Biologists make recommendations based on harvest rates and harvest totals, and that's as it should be, he said. But commissioners “adjust” those when taking into consideration social factors like hunter opinions, he said. That's meant increasing deer numbers for the better part of a decade, he said.
“We've talked about stabilizing the herd, but really, commissioners are telling you we want to increase the herd,” Putnam said. “We're not admitting doing anything other than making adjustments. But the end result will be we expect the herd to increase in certain units
What a juxtaposition of booths. Sandy Baker's booth looked beautiful, people smiling, positive, and offering humane solutions for deer browsing, and the pro-kill booth offering nothing but lies, violence, suffering, and death, offering no effective solution at all.
ReplyDeleteElaine, can you identify the women in the picture at the pro-kill booth? Thanks
ReplyDeleteI saw Michalina, Barbara, Carolyn, Nancy's hubby, and i forget the only one who would say her name. I have more unflattering photos of them, but I chose not to post them. Mr. Nancy started to use his phone to record my "rant." He would only say his first name which was Wes. They wanted to tell me about Lyme Disease. I said that I would love to talk about Lyme Disease. I told them that we have rats, mice, chipmunks, birds and squirrels who spread it. Then they tried to tell me that rats feed on deer feces, which I added dog and cat feces and garbage that is not properly kept in garbage cans. I am hoping someone will scan one of their flyers for me. They are now blaming that deer are now reducing our bird population. Crazy stuff.
ReplyDeleteI know that it was fun talking with people today who wanted to learn to coexist with the deer. They really appreciated the information that was shared at our booth. Sandy Baker and Jim Jenkin's wife, Lisa were fabulous. Sandy said that she has traveled all over the country and was most impressed with Jim Jenkin's store. We really are lucky to have them. If you go to their website, they have coupons for Earth Day. Sign up for their newsletter while you are visiting their site.
Elaine
Elaine, the gardeners attempted to convince you that deer are the cause of Lyme Disease. Do you think they are just trying to create another "need" to kill the deer or do they believe deer are that hazardous? Maybe the answer is both.
ReplyDeleteThis entire situation is shameful and I'd like to thank Steve Feller, John Bendel and Dave Brumfield for their obvious roles in fanning the flames, authorizing incompetent, criminal Wildlife Specialists and pitting groups against one another. They view residents as puppets they can control and while everyone bickers about deer, they continue to defraud us all to meet their own needs.
Did Mr. Nancy ask your permission to record your "rant?"
ReplyDeleteTo do so without consent is illegal.
This pro-kill hate group has no credibility; i.e. they refuse to go to Sandy Baker's seminars and are not open to humane and effective solutions. All they've done is attack her for offering solutions. How can they explain and justify this behavior and maintain any credibility?
ReplyDeleteWhy were these pro-kill ladies given a booth for the Earth Day Celebration? All they're promoting is killing nature and wildlife. They are totally against peaceful co-existence?
ReplyDeleteYou can’t love or respect nature with a gun.
Paul Watson, Founder and President of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society and Co-Founder, The Greenpeace Foundation.
You can’t love or respect nature with a gun.
ReplyDelete- Paul Watson, President of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.
So why were these pro-kill ladies given a booth for the Earth Day Celebration? All they're promoting is killing nature and wildlife. They are totally against peaceful co-existence?
Elaine said, "They wanted to tell me about Lyme Disease." YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!! The Lyme Disease scare tactic has been totally discredited over and over again, even by the Pa Game Commission. THAT'S ALL THEY HAVE? Their entire pro-kill campaign is based on LIES!!! I guess they think that the Lyme disease scare tactic will still influence uninformed residents. I don't understand what can motivate such hatred and lies, and a campaign for senseless animal cruelty.
ReplyDeleteThe pro-kill hate group had another petition for "effective deer management." Yes, 10:47 PM, quite a contrast between the two booths. It even felt colder at the haters' booth. It was both chilling and depressing.
ReplyDeleteThis was the first time I was able to attend Mt. Lebanon's Earth Day celebration. Aside from the "Kill, Kill, Kill" booth, it was educational, family friendly, and a lot of fun.
Elaine
Don't you just love how honest and up front the lebodeer people are.
ReplyDeleteTheir logo replete with an image of what looks to be a young mother and daughter peaceably coexisting outdoors with a large buck. So tranquil, so idyllic.
But then you visit their website and what do you read?
http://lebodeer.com/encroachment/
"Public Safety Encounters with aggressive deer are not uncommon in urban and suburban areas where deer and people interact frequently. These encounters are almost always associated with the fawning and breeding season. Does are highly defensive of their young and have been know to attack unsuspecting dogs and people who get too close to their fawns. In the fall, bucks in breeding condition with hard antlers and high levels of testosterone can cause significant harm, even death. Feeding deer exacerbates this type of problem by bringing deer and people closer and habituating deer."
Visions of death from testosterone loaded male deer with hard antlers and defensive does ready to lash out at the slightest provocation.
What does their deer management section offer? Advice on hunting. No discussion of sterilization techniques, no suggestions on smart gardening. Their only advice to deer management... start shooting!
I remembered the name of the woman who was brave enough to tell me her name in the killers' booth. It was Margaret H. She also spoke at commission meetings in support of killing deer.
ReplyDeleteSome of these women were quite rude to the deer doctor. It was embarrassing to be a resident of Mt. Lebanon. Even I was cordial to Merlin Benner at discussion sessions.
Elaine
Were the sports groups in attendance at Earth Day?
ReplyDeleteDid they have tire crumb "sand boxes" for the young kids to play in?
That'd be the perfect marketing tool to get people on board with more artificial turf projects.
Thank you 9:59 AM for pointing out something that finally, both groups can agree on. At the Sandy Baker/Jim Jenkins booth, we had a copy of the feeding ban. Jim Jenkins also brought a hummingbird feeder which does not attract deer.
ReplyDeleteElaine
10:04 AM, there was some big event at the high school toxic turf, so I didn't see any sports people at Earth Day.
ReplyDeleteElaine
I just got an email from someone who saw the flyer from the pro-killing women. Here is part of what was written in the email:
ReplyDelete"The verbage from it is on their website :
http://lebodeer.com/ecological-balance/
Scroll down on that page for Greg Nace's opinion piece that tries to sound like researched fact."
News flash, Ladies. Tulips are not native plants and deer love them. Ms. Baker went through your neighborhoods and saw unharmed tulips. In fact, she couldn't see any evidence of deer browsing. The other deer experts brought in by the municipality reported the same. No evidence of deer browsing. I guess that leaves us living in fear of death from testosterone loaded male deer with hard antlers. At one time. I received a piece of advice from a former commissioner to visit Rolliers for help on choosing soothing colors to paint my basement. I was fearful of the weapons that were being used next to my house to kill deer almost a decade ago.
Elaine
Why would they be rude to Ms. Baker when they have a page devoted to deer resistant gardens. http://lebodeer.com/2015/02/how-to-create-a-deer-resistant-garden/
ReplyDeleteHere is more about how the deer are responsible for "The Growing Silence in Our Woods." http://lebodeer.com/project/lebo-voice-ecological-balance-1/ (I'm not going to bother making a hyperlink. They should be happy that I am promoting their website.)
ReplyDeleteUnbelievable.
Elaine
What small eastern PA town did Nace grow up in?
ReplyDeleteHaving lived in or frequented for over 50 years small PA towns often from Harrisburg to the Delaware River I find it hard to believe this guy grew up never seeing a deer in the wild.
We will never win with pro kill people. You cannot reason with people who lack intelligence and class.
ReplyDeleteWe live in an alternate reality. There is kindness toward wildlife in other (more compassionate) places:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=cc--u2DCJjg&app=desktop
"August 27, 2014:
ReplyDeleteAt request of five Baywood Avenue residents, Commissioners Fraasch and Linfante met and responded to deer questions –several residents from other streets attended—residents’ concerns: deer attacking dog and damaging fence; near car accident; stampeding deer inches from resident; Lyme disease of family member; deer feces; concern for deer undergoing sterilization post-operative pain"
A stampede inches from a resident... is the link below the video?
Check out this video on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAWnfMjF7wY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
WILDLIFE EXPERTS ON DEER ATTACKS
ReplyDeleteLarry Hawkins, a legislative and public affairs officer for the U.S. Department of Agriculture Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service said, "nationwide, deer attacks are rare"
Wildlife Conservation Officer Kenneth Packard said, "Deer almost always flee from people, and deer attacks against people are extremely rare."
Anne Bull, a spokeswoman for New Brunswick's Department of Natural Resources, said "attacks by deer are extremely rare."
Howard Burt, the region's Fish, Wildlife, and Parks Biologist said "[deer] attacks are extremely rare unless a deer perceives they are being threatened or defending a fawn."
Even these rare events can be minimized through appropriate resident education. As part of such an education program on wildlife, residents can be informed of ways to peacefully and safely coexist with deer and other wildlife.
Contrast these expert statements with 350,000 dog bite victims requiring emergency room attention yearly, with 30-35 fatalities in each of the past several years, and you have some perspective.
I can speak from my wildlife education and experience with being around deer my entire life. All the deer I've come to know and have had encounters with have been gentle and timid animals. I've often had doe bring their new born fawns right up to me to introduce them to me. Not once over all these years have I seen any aggressive behavior. That said, if you let your dog off lease and the dog chases or attacks a doe with her fawn, she will defend her fawn. Wolf and coyote are the main fawn predators, and so this defense of her baby can only be expected and IMO admired. They are loving and good mom's, and have strong family values. That's why resident education is important. So during the first few weeks of fawning season residents know to take extra steps to keep their dogs on a lease, so that they don't chase and threaten fawns.
There are an estimated 1.5 million deer in Pennsylvania. If deer were aggressive by nature and a serious threat to humans, I think KDKA, WPXI, and WTAE would be blasting these deer attack stories on TV every night. Unfortunately, every night the news is a review of the daily shooting murders that occur in Pittsburgh. So the real threat is from our fellow humans and not the deer.
The hateful pro-kill "ladies" are just trying to demonize the deer to scare residents to get buy-in for their "protect their tulips" deer slaughter program.
Why don't these nasty deer hating ladies get a life and do something positive and kind, and stop campaigning for violence, suffering, and death. I always thought women were supposed to have more compassion and mercy than men. These cold hearted sociopaths are pretty scary. Look at their faces. You can see their inner ugliness in their faces. Thank God I had a kind and compassionate mom.
ReplyDeleteEven that YouTube mega deer stampede doesn't look all that life threatening.
ReplyDeleteIt's highly unlikely that a stampede of even that magnitude occurred any where near a Lebo resident... ever.
So I can only assume these Lebodeer ladies (and cough, cough- men) are probably afraid of their very own shadows.
Halloween must be real torture.
Hey Lebodeer people... "BOO!"
12:45 I heard about this meeting and understood it was the same old crap from our dead kill pushers.
ReplyDeleteI went to the first of three Sandy Baker seminars this afternoon.
ReplyDeleteSandy said that we have the healthiest deer. Kelly told us that another community suggested deer Weight Watchers. We are feeding them well, either directly or through our gardens.
I drove Sandy to the Library today and asked her how many deer she has seen so far in Mt. Lebanon since she arrived on Friday night. Her answer was zero.
Sandy said that the community should work together on this issue. In the spirit of working together, here is Lebo Deer's brochure.
Mt. Lebanon tried killing. We must have a comprehensive plan. We need to look at traffic, feeding, educating the community about deer behavior, learning about what to plant, what products work to keep deer out and what products don't work. Rochester, NY reduced speed limits in areas with deer/vehicle collisions.
It isn't all about killing deer, ladies. Open your minds and your hearts to other options. Your Lebo Deer brochure claims that you do not endorse any specific method of deer management and will rely on commissioners' decisions based upon their own research, staff, and recommendations of respected experts. You wouldn't listen to the Humane Society of the United States. The other three commissioners will not be attending Sandy Baker's seminars, so I hope you will consider Sandy Baker's recommendations.
Elaine
That's a mighty fine lebodeer logo you got there, Ladies. Single Mom on one side and a *testosterone loaded buck with hard antlers* far away in the forest. One thing on your brochure...is your website LeboDeer.com or is it Lebodeer.org ? Which is correct ?
ReplyDelete6:00 PM, both will take you to lebodeer.com. I guess the correct answer is lebodeer.com.
ReplyDeleteElaine
Thanks for bringing us up to speed, Elaine.
ReplyDeleteSo let me get this straight (again):
The three commissioners that voted to permit a corral and kill deer program, the first of its kind in the nation, did not attend any of the community seminars that promote non lethal methods of coping with our state animal.
Maybe, they, too are in cyberspace eating venison donated by a self employed evangelist.
#unbelievable
I find it confusing that Marilyn Narey wrote an article on the lebodeer.com website titled "No such thing as a deer resistant garden" (http://tinyurl.com/lbnz52u), but there is a separate page on the same lebodeer.com website with 3 links to pages for "How to create a deer resistant garden" (http://tinyurl.com/kk4hfmc). So which one is it?
ReplyDeleteNick M.
Why in the world aren't the Commissioners attending Sandy Baker's seminars? That's the writing on the wall. They have no interest in non-lethal approaches to deer management. How ignorant and rude can they be, and what a waste of Sandy Baker's time. They ignored HSUS' wildlife biologist recommendations, and now Sandy Baker's recommendations. These Commissioners need to be removed from office. That's the solution!
ReplyDeleteElaine 5:41 pm wrote - "Lebo Deer brochure claims that you do not endorse any specific method of deer management"
ReplyDeleteYou got to be kidding me! These ladies are pathological liars. Why do they feel that they have to lie all the time? Can't they make their case on truth and facts?
Ditto 7:41 pm - Unbelievable!!!
Especially when Michalina was on KDKA TV and said, "The ONLY way is to cull." Nancy was quoted as saying "Looking forward to the cull in the fall." How do we work together when we are dealing with women who judge us by how we are dressed, saying that we look homeless?
ReplyDeleteThe commissioners are not interested in facts. They never have and they never will.
We'll see who they select tomorrow night to replace Kristen. It certainly won't be me.
Elaine
This comment appears in Lebodeer: "As I am sure you have experienced, it is almost uncommon that you can drive through Mt. Lebanon without having to stop suddenly to avoid a collision with deer."
ReplyDeleteHmmmm... an odd claim don't you think, since speeding along several of our roads has become epidemic as evidenced by the recent escalation of police speed limit enforcement.
What should we conclude?
Lebo drivers are idiots, throwing caution to the wind. Does a sane person exceed posted speed limits knowing they'll need to stop "suddenly" to avoid deer collisions?
Do Lebo drivers love danger? Commissioners, pro-cullers insist that death and injury through deer accidents are inevitable, yet drivers continue to speed, text while driving, drink and drive.
Or perhaps, the Lebodeer comment is nothing more than hyperbole.
Thanks for the background, unpublished comment at 12:32 PM. That certainly explains the cold and bitter attitude toward living things. But many of us have had horrible things happen in our families and that is no excuse to take it out on deer.
ReplyDeleteI won't publish your comment, 12:32 PM, because that was pretty personal information that she shared with you.
Elaine
10:30 am. The driving thing is worse than u can imagine. The traffic studies are rigged against calming streets--Mt Lebanon pays traffic engineers for fraudulent studies. They ALL know this and yet the practice continues.
ReplyDelete1:05, I know little about the incidentals regarding traffic calming studies and such.
ReplyDeleteMy opinion is based on personal observations and the fact that I don't see similar number of "Drive like your kids live here" signs and speed bumps in surrounding communities.
Something is amiss if homeowners feel a need to dig into their own wallets to put up traffic calming signs.
There is a new article about the deer issue in Trib.
ReplyDeleteThis is my favorite crack-up quote:
"Our deer are not behaving the way biologists say they should in our community, in terms of how accepting they are of humans,” Brumfield said.
http://triblive.com/neighborhoods/alleghenyneighborhoods/alleghenyneighborhoodsmore/8145907-74/deer-commission-lebanon#ixzz3YkzAup8i