With that said, I had filed a Right To Know of all the emails to and from the pro-kill women in 2014 and 2015. My request yielded 325 pages for a total amount of $81.25, which I picked up this morning from Steve Feller's office. As I have done with other large Right To Knows in the past, I will be sharing this RTK as I go through it.
In Behavior Lesson by the Mary Larsen Party of Six, Mrs. Larson and "five other Mt. Lebanon residents" wanted to comment on the behavior of some of the people, especially those opposed to the deer culling as proposed. Below are emails, as I go through the RTK, from the Dark Side. May the Force Be With You, Mt. Lebanon.
Barbara Logan helped circulate John Bendel's nomination petition. No political favors there.
Marilyn Narey was working with Kristen Linfante and Susan Morgans to post documentation of their group's "civic action" timeline to the municipal website. Morgans is ticked off at the perception of lack of transparency.
Marilyn Narey on her friend Carrie Steel/Carrie Doe. She coaches John Bendel on how to handle the "protest group" and grandstanding commissioners. Read what she says about permitting TV cameras at meetings.
Comments about a particular anti-cull blogger, obviously graduates of the Mary Larsen School of Behavior.
Negative comments on the Deer Proofing Seminar. Read about the waste of taxpayer money, deer feces, and complaints about a commissioner.
As with all large Right To Knows, this is a work in progress. More will be posted.
No to public surveys
The pro-kill movement is politically driven. Tony DiNicola is doing a little back-stabbing too.
Criticism of an anti-deer cull person questioning the deer meat not going to food banks. We know that the deer meat was donated to a cyberspace Christian ministry in N. Huntingdon this time.
Barbara Logan on proper dress for commission meetings, sterilization, Ward 1's stance on sharp shooting vs. Ward 4's stance, late starting times, former Pittsburgh Steeler, judges and former commissioners sharing her views on killing deer, neighbors hiring sharpshooters, Twin Hills, a commissioner taking the podium in a self-serving manner, scolding her commissioner for being against sharp shooting, Dan Miller wasting time with citations, junior commissioners wasting time at meetings, banning flower pots and signs at commission meetings, a commissioner spouting nonsense about sterilization and lots about deer feces. Valedictorian of the Mary Larsen School of Behavior.
LEBODEER is always respectful, civil, courteous, and fact-based.
Miscellaneous letters to the Commission with more examples of LEBODEER running the commissioners.
Kristen Linfante had quite a working relationship with members of LEBODEER. She invited them to concerts, would forward commission emails to them, coordinated the pro-kill petition, and more emails about the crazies, the insane, nasty (and clearly not well-wrapped) people, Elaine Gillen and her cronies and how Kristen has been attacked all these years.
Update May 6, 2015 3:59 PM
The origin of the deer incident report. Report sightings of deer and the incidents increase. Counts mean nothing to the Game Commission. God help us all if Kelly pushes for another aerial survey. All fact-based.
Kristen Linfante talks about bullets. All fact-based. Marilyn Narey suggests bringing in the most expert in the case of the safety of deer culling, our police chief.
Survey says... Barbara Logan's survey shows that more than 90% of the residents favor sharp shooters. All fact-based.
Marilyn Narey wanted the chronology of her group posted on the municipal website to dispel the current belief that the commissioners are doing this behind closed doors with the elitist gardeners. By the way, here is my cell phone number, John.
LeboDeer Press Release on March 10, 2015 "Both the municipality and the PGC are working to make sure that the cull is being conducted properly."
LeboDeer feel unsafe in their homes and at meetings. (Yes, they can remain calm at these meetings because they are heartless. They are getting their way. We, on the other hand, are afraid of weapons being discharged in our densely populated neighborhoods and/or upset that animals are being killed for these cold-blooded people. We cannot be emotionless like LeboDeer folks.)
Not only was Kristen Linfante forwarding all commission emails to the LeboDeer people, Steve Silverman would give documents, bypassing the Right To Know process. That's just lovely. Prodeer people, we never had a chance.
Update May 9, 2015 9:39 AM Someone sent me this photo of a deer standing by a Kelly Fraasch sign.
Nice group of people there. To summarize a couple of the threads: They said we were elitist gardeners pushing our own agenda. That's not true and I want the Commission to push my elitist gardening agenda and somehow frame it as though it was a widely supported, noncontroversial plan.
ReplyDeleteAlso, did she admit to being Carrie Doe/Steele? Didn't that anonymous person spoof a Mt. Lebanon email address, which seemed liked they were impersonating a public official (possibly a crime in PA)?
At first glance - Seems like the LeboDeer people think they are running the commissioners...
ReplyDeleteRoger D.
The former comissioner watched with "horror" as three deer stalked down her driveway. Amazing how some people get through life with such "horrors" prowling about. Or she is just being ridiculous and using scare tactics to influence a politician and the public. Amazing either way.
ReplyDeleteI am at a loss for words. Unusual for me.
ReplyDeleteReading through most of these emails, I think this information is extremely sad and truly disturbing. I am not going to blame all the gardeners for it -- I am looking straight at the Commission and municipal staff. They refuse to be leaders with integrity on the issues this community faces. This whole deer showdown could have been avoided. No one should have to feel betrayed or horrified by deer in corrals or deer in their yards. Gardener or non-gardener, or right in the middle -- Mt Lebanon's leadership is the epitome of a failure.
ReplyDeleteFor the record, I do not think Elaine Gillen is insane or truly nuts. The first time I read this blog, I remember thinking, "Wow - she seems angry". Rather than assume Elaine was "insane", I wondered "what is going on that would result in the maintenance of this blog and its topics in Mt Lebanon?".
Deer people: Elaine is on to something and it isn't pretty. Rather than attack, why don't you wonder? What would it hurt?
Reading through these emails and it is readily apparent that the powers that be absolutely hate Elaine and her blog.
ReplyDeleteThey can't control it and it is driving them absolutely crazy.
For once Mt. Lebanon has a resource and venue for information that doesn't require one to be an insider, a political operative of have a fat checkbook.
It is about as democratic as you can get.
Is there misinformation, of course.
Are their agendas, of course.
But it is completely wide open, anyone from the most progressive to the most conservative can join in the conversation.
Debate is welcome, research is welcome and thinking is most welcome.
Amazing how the whims of a few well connected people drive policy while the needs of the many are ignored. Also amazing is how many times N.W. and cronies refers to people who support her wants as "..well educated..., prominent lawyers.., etc. I would like to personally remind N.W. and cronies, that while educational and professional credentials might impress some, certainly not myself in particular, in a democracy that is irrelevant. Each and every member of this society has an equal weighting to their opinions and votes. Certainly an educated person like yourself has studied the constitution and our founding fathers foresight. It is precisely people like you that have perverted the Democratic process into the "money buys all" mentality that is ruining this country.
ReplyDeleteI believe Albert Einstein said "...the only people that believe education equals intelligence are educated people. The rest of us don't make that mistake..."
Roger V. DeLonga
Some of these emails from the Lebodeer folks are totally comical. According to Marilyn Narey, the deer are "stampeding" through her yard almost knocking her down. And they call Elaine nuts...hmmm!!
ReplyDeleteNick M.
Deer don't stampede. People do. Not deer.
ReplyDeleteI meant N.M. not N.W.
ReplyDeleteRVD
Wait a minute.. just read in BL's email that quite a few murderers live in Ward 1? What the.... who ARE these so called fellow residents/neighbors anyway.
ReplyDeleteIn all these years I never googled, "Mt Lebanon" and "murderer" and I am just not sure I want to start now...
Bob Logan says using rifles to shoot deer poses "NO DANGER." No danger?! really? You might think the risk is minimal, but there is still danger of ricochets, shooter tripping and accidentally discharging his weapon, errant shot hitting a house, etc. And his cohorts accuse others of spreading misinformation. Great stuff.
ReplyDelete9:12 pm, Roger, who is N.M. or N.W.? I'm confused.
ReplyDeleteSo "Lebo Deer" is 4 pro-kill ladies.
ReplyDeleteWhy was "Lebo Deer" so opposed and afraid of Sandy Baker's Deer Proofing Seminars?
ReplyDeleteI found it disturbing and condescending how Marilyn Narey and Barbara Logan were telling the Commissioners what to say and do, and who should say it (not Linfante) in one example.
ReplyDeleteBarbara Logan needs to get a life. How terrible it must be to be her, at her age, and to be so full of hatred with this obsession to slaughter all these gentle deer and their babies, and to cause so much suffering. I bet she sent over 100 emails herself. It's sad.
ReplyDeleteWell, its now very clear that John Bendel is carrying the water for Barbara Logan. Why do these politicians think that she is politically relevent?
ReplyDeleteWhen you analyse these individual emails, it always returns to their gardens. Marilyn Narey's "The Jewel of Baywood" garden; Barbara Logan's garden, etc. Folks, this is all about tulips.
ReplyDeleteI found the private emails between Commissioner Linfante and DeNicola (White Buffalo) disturbing, and her requesting a proposal to be sent to her within the budgeted amount she quoted. Are Commissioners allowed to do that without Commission consensus? Isn't there an appropriate public process to adhear to?
ReplyDeletePlease forgive any inaccurate paraphrasing, i.e. I didn't take notes. but was it Barbara Logan who referred to residents opposed to using lethal weapons in their parks and neighborhoods, and inhumane killing as the "Bambi People". Didn't she also say that she was glad that the police were at the Commission meeting, because she felt that the "Bambi People" were dangerous? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the so called "Bambi People" the residents who are against the use of lethal weapons and violence in the community?
ReplyDeleteWas it Marilyn Narey, in an email to one of the Commissioners, that was requesting that the media not be allowed in the public meetings to film and report on the resident opposition to the deer killing program? Why this request for censorship? What is she afraid of?
ReplyDeleteWhy does Mt. Lebanon continually pay exorbitant consulting fees to deer killing vendors, i.e. USDA Wildlife Services, Wildlife Specialists LLC, and White Buffalo, as if they were objective wildlife "experts" for deer human/conflict management advice? They are only going to recommend the deer killing services that are most cost effective for them to implement. They should do that for free.
ReplyDeleteI've said it before and I'll say it again. The commissioners are public servants. We the people can and should draft the agenda for the commission. If Narey and Logan are willing and able to whisper into the majority of commissioners' ears, good for them--- especially if that majority listens and acts and Narey's and Logan's advice. The downside of that is that Narey and Logan have driven the commission to act in ways that are contrary to the best interests of Mt. Lebanon. With respect to the deer issue, my humble advice to the anti-kill crowd is to get out there and lobby the commission majority, just like Narey and Logan do. Write your own script. If you want to see change, you must be the catalyst.
ReplyDeleteMay 5, 2015 at 12:56 AM - I can't speak for the other anti-cull residents, but I do email the Commissioners, but I typically don't get a response, and in the rare instance that I do, it's not as cozy and submissive as the responses that the Commissioners appear to be giving this small handful of elitist pro-kill ladies. Many of the emails from Logan and Narey are scolding and reprimanding the Commissioners and telling them what to do and say, and the Commissioners respond like they've been castrated. So it appears that this small handful of pro-kill ladies have some kind of unexplainable influence and control over the majority of the Commissioners. It's the tail wagging the dog. It's like these pro-kill ladies are in charge, and are a shadow Commission. Is their power over the Commission perceived political influence? I don't know. The Commissioners or at least Bendel appear to think that Logan is some kind of power broker within the Mt. Lebanon Democrat Committee, or maybe they think that she heads up the wealthy and educated (doctors, judges, and lawyers, oh my!) deer haters brigade of Virginia Manor, and that's why Bendel appears to have become her lap dog. However, based on the intelligence I've received from the next generation members of the Mt. Lebanon Democrat Committee, Logan is washed up and has no influence - so go figure. I guess perception is reality. So I think we're doing our part trying to communicate with the Commission, but they aren't listening to us, or HSUS' wildlife biologist, or Sandy Baker, or to any of the studies and facts that prove that their deer killing programs don't work. I don't know why, and can't explain why they aren't listening - I'm just speculating. IMO, the only way to change this current situation is for this bipartisan group to organize politically and remove these Commissioners from office, and replace them with Commissioners that will listen to us. I'm tired talking. It's time for political action.
ReplyDeleteMaybe some other anti-cull residents can provide feedback on the responses they've received from the Commissioners on this topic. I remember reading comments about Steve Feller treating anti-cull residents very rudely when they've called. Remember, this is a pro-kill administration.
Oh well, Baba Wawa ruined Rocky Bleier's reputation. I think she said that not only does he want to kill the deer, but that he'd do it himself, or something to that effect.
ReplyDeleteI've always been a Rocky Bleir fan. I've seen him a few times shopping at the Virginia Manor Giant Eagles. I debated on whether to go over and introduce myself and ask to shake his hand, but didn't, because I didn't want to bother him.
However, now that I know that he's one of the elitist pro-kill ladies, I have lost respect for him, and have no interest in shaking his hand.
Yet again Elaine, you, with a website and a right to know, do a better job than all of the journalists in Pittsburgh! You are an asset to this community.
ReplyDeletePeople tend to think of political favors being traded in a smoke filled back room. No, not in Mt Lebanon. Favors are traded in garden parties here. One only needs to correlate these mails to political donations and you can see the quid pro quo clearly.
This is a cancer in our community! The fact that 4 (four) women can de-rail the community like this and cause such a massive waste of money should be shocking to everyone.
The only cure to this cancer is more sunshine. Share this blog with everyone you know! Get the word out. The journalists in Pittsburgh lack any curiosity (unless prodded by political bosses or given press releases by PIOs). It's only efforts like Lebo Citizens that can cure this cancer.
Elaine, thank you again for all of your efforts with this blog! Everyone in the community owes you a debt!
--Tom the Tinker
Wow, Barbara Logan. Name dropping, condescending, disrespectful are terms that come to mind when reading her bully e-mails. As I recall, we can still all thank her for alarm system permit fees a.k.a. residents being punished for investing in their personal safety.
ReplyDeleteHey Barbara, how about you and your cronies pay for an annual deer culling fee?
11:39 I'm sorry, I was sick yesterday and just didn't have it together. The third time is a charm.
ReplyDeleteM.N. a.k.a. Marilyn Narey
Roger D.
12:56 I'll get back to you...
In an email to Commissioner Bendel on 11/12/14 , Barbara Logan wrote, "I am stunned that anyone would allow himself to be swayed by the likes of Hoon [Dr. Bill Hoon] who claims that the deer don't exist, that Lyme is a myth, and that only he is an expert. Last night he named the second war that he was involved with."
ReplyDeleteI think this derogatory personal attack of Dr. Bill Hoon is low and shameful. I've know Bill personally for a number of years, and his integrity and courage are unimpeachable. I know that Bill had volunteered and served in Afghanistan putting his life on the line "for the likes of" Barbara Logan, who is attacking him for his courage and patriotism.
I don't want to put words into Bill's mouth, but I don't believe that he thinks that there's an overpopulation of deer "problem" in Mt. Lebanon, and I agree with him. Benner just set up six corral bated traps in areas that he thought had the highest concentration of deer, and could only find six deer to kill. If there was this massive overpopulation of deer that this handful of pro-kill ladies want everyone to believe, I don't think Benner would have had so much trouble finding deer to kill.
Two of the leading Lyme disease experts in the U.S., Dr. Richard Ostfeld, Senior Scientist, The Cary Institute and Dr. Tamara Awerbuch of the Harvard School of Public Health, and even the Pa Game Commission agree with Bill's position on Lyme disease. Unfortunately, Barbara Logan continues to dismiss all the experts and the facts and tries to use Lyme disease as a scare tactic and justification to slaughter the deer. In addition, Bill has some medical credentials to speak with authority on this topic.
Furthermore, Bill has had direct experience handling and shooting the M16 rifle, the military version of the AR-15 semi-automatic rifle, that Benner's boys were running around Mt. Lebanon shooting. Bill has serious safety concerns with using high powered semi-automatic rifles in a densely populated and developed community like Mt. Lebanon.
Sadly, I don't think Barbara Logan is alone is taking for granted the supreme sacrifice that other Americans put on the line everyday overseas for her freedom. However, attacking and dismissing a veteran's service is a new shameful low, even for Barbara Logan.
It is 12:56, again. To everyone who thinks that Bender is a lap dog----I AGREE. Shame on him. Shame on Logan and her ilk for wanting to destroy our charming deer population.
ReplyDeleteShow your outrage. Then, move on. Organize, plan and act.
7:41 AM Roger D.
ReplyDeleteDon't you mean Dr. Marilyn Narey.
I believe that's how she presents herself in her emails.
I find people with PhD's presenting themselves as Doctor as extremely pretentious.
I understand the MD's distinction, i.e. there are things that a medical doctor can do for a patient that non-doctors can't.
But for someone to insist on being called "Doctor" in a setting where it only serves to enforce some sort of class distinction just seems like snobbery to me.
Barbara Logan wrote,
ReplyDelete"I am deeply in favor of sharpshooters for compassionate as well as other reasons."
A quick test for compassion and humane is would you want this to done to you or your dog.
Below are some earlier press quotes demonstrating ex-Commissioner Barbara Logan's "compassion". She started the push for a deer killing program back in 2006/07 time frame, and is still today totally obsessed with shooting all the deer in Mt. Lebanon for "compassionate" as well as other reasons.
1)"My shouting and screaming at them does nothing," she said.
2)"My concern is that if, or when, this plan happens, many of us will be disappointed because our deer are not in an area where we can cull them," said Commissioner Barbara Logan.
3)"I'm afraid that once we start culling them, they'll lay low until it is over,"added Logan
4) Ms. Logan said she understood that some people are upset at the thought of killing deer, but whether they die from old age, disease, hunger or hunting, "One way or another, the deer are going to die."
I don't know about you guys, but I think quote # 4 should win Barbara Logan Mt. Lebanon's "Community with Character", Spirit of Compassion Award. I'm voting for her.
Wait, you have to pay for these documents??
ReplyDeletePro-deer people: One good thing about Logan is that she is predictable. Same old song. Capitalize on that predictability.
ReplyDeletePreface: I am not a Barbara Logan defender.
ReplyDeleteI think that Brumfield, Feller, Bendel, Gateway, the School District leadership, etc. -- they are all pleased that we are focused on Barbara Logan's private emails. Sure, she has an influence but as her emails demonstrate, she doesn't know what's going on and she'd like if the calmer Mt Lebanon of her commission tenure were reinstated.
If she wants calm, and readers want calm, keep an eye on the elected officials and municipal staff members whose emails never surface and who write, "Can I call you to talk about this?" and continue to be re-elected. They are all at ease right now that they have crafted yet another distraction.
One last thing that summarizes the musings of the former Commissioner on how the deer should be killed because they are going to die anyway. This is from Eleanor Roosevelt:
ReplyDelete"It is easy to slip into self-absorption and it is equally fatal. When one becomes absorbed in himself, in his health, in his personal problems, or in the small details of daily living, he is, at the same time losing interest in other people; worse, he is losing his ties to life. From that it is an easy step to losing interest in the world and in life itself. That is the beginning of death."
Yes I do, 10:50 AM. I am only about half way through. There are quite a few outdated studies submitted by these women, which I have not shared here. Many emails about sharpshooting next. Some pretty cold-blooded stuff.
ReplyDeleteHad an interesting experience today at the garden store on Rt. 88. I walked in and right in the front of the store was a deer resistant plant display. I saw a very nice pro-deer Mt. Lebanon woman standing there and we started talking about deer resistant plants and Sandy Baker. Along comes one of the pro-kill women, not one of the four members of Lebo Deer (why do they call themselves that when they are against Lebo deer?) with a cart full of deer salad fixin's.
I bought my lavender plants, garden posts and netting for my raspberries, ready to check out, when this woman came up to me and asked me if I was Kelly. I said no and told her my name. She skedaddled.
10:50 AM, I also spent close to $100 for the Saturday night cookout for Sandy Baker that was going to be in Rockwood Park. It was moved to Kelly's house because of inclement weather. So I loaded up all the food, platters, etc. into my car and drove it over to Kelly's. I hope she reads this RTK to see why a certain person did not stop at the Sandy Baker booth. It wasn't because I was standing there.
Elaine
May 5, 2015 at 11:35 AM. FYI, Logan's Commission tenure was not calm. She launched this deer killing program; i.e. it was a personal agenda for her. During her reign as queen of the monarchy the Commission allowed Wildlife Services to bait deer and shoot high powered rifles in resident's back yards w/o any notice to their surrounding neighbors. It was totally insane! Residents were upset!
ReplyDeleteI noticed Logan voicing her disdain for the length of citizen comments to Commissioner Bendel. She had disdain for citizen comments during her reign too. When residents spoke against her deer killing program she would sit and look out the window in the Commission chamber and totally ignore their comments.
So it's not surprising how Logan wants the Commission to censure the residents who speak out against the deer killing program at citizen comments; i.e. they are taking up everyone's precious time, and Bendel seems to agree. And Marilyn Narey want's the Commission to stop the media from covering the residents who oppose the deer killing program at the Commission meeting. Don't you just love this call for censorship by the lovely pro-kill ladies.
The Federal Courts view censorship with more disdain than any other First Amendment violation. The commission is skating on thin ice. Do you read me, Bendel?
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone notice that Bendel uses his Commission mtlebanon.org e-mail for political campaign communication, particularly with Logan? That's a big no-no, a blatant violation of election law!
ReplyDelete6:41---If indeed Bender is using his municipal email account for campaign purposes, I think you are correct that it is a serious violation.
ReplyDeleteIt all makes sense now. Many of us could not understand why the culling continued to receive the the go ahead, after so many citizens pleaded against it. After the protests and citizens' comments during the Commissioners meeting. But, now, thanks to Elaine, we can read the many e-mails which show who was really in control (Barbara Logan, and the ladies from "Lebo Deer"). They are the reason that the Commissioners would be not be swayed.
ReplyDeleteIt is disturbing how much influence these few women had on our Commissioners. Shame on the Commissioners for not listening to the people.
Thank you so much, Elaine, for all your hard work, and for making these e-mails available to us.
I see a conflict of interest between Bendel voting to kill deer on behalf of Barbara Logan who sits on Ward 1's Democratic Committee as an Associate Member and offers to circulate his petition (a "reward") based on the understanding that she has his support. This looks like an example of both "seeking" and "accepting" "improper influence", which is explicitly restricted by the PA Ethics Act -- something John Bendel, perhaps, is aware of and sought to hide by taking the exchange off-line and onto the phone when Barbara emailed him with the offer.
ReplyDeleteIt's only an ethics violation or serious campaign violation if it gets prosecuted 12:29 and 7:02.
ReplyDeleteOtherwise, it's just another day in the life.
Since the Republican Committee is asleep at the switch, nothing will happen to John Bendel. There are never any consequences to our commissioners for any of their actions.
ReplyDeleteElaine
To the person who keenly spotted the issue with Bender and his emails, might you be willing to call the Allegheny County DA? Or the Pittsburgh office of the PA attorney general? The one guarantee of not alerting authorities is that nothing will happen to Bendel.
ReplyDelete10:37 am
ReplyDeleteI'm the last person on this blog that would ever defend Bendel, but I don't want the great people on this blog to get overly petty.
Bendel's email use is the least of my issues with him. I'd rather focus on removing him from office.
My concern, is that it sounds like his Republican challenger, Dan McNichol, supports turning Lebo into a hunting and shooting gallery too.
I remember Elaine writing that she heard that he opposes the inhumane killing of deer, but supports the "humane" killing of deer. Sounds like political double speak to me. If true, I won't vote for either candidate.
It's so upsetting, i.e. this was such a major opportunity lost by the anti-cull residents.
How can we expect anything to change if we don't get politically involved?
I am so disheartened and upset that we have no candidate to vote for in this Ward 1 race.
I don't give a damn what Bendel does with his email address. That's the least of my concerns.
Improper use of the municipal email is not fun by itself. BUT... as we have seen with other office holders, the criminal justice system has the power to toss them out.
ReplyDeleteThe pro-deer people have been so bogged down in politics that they have gotten nowhere. Yes, PRO-deer.
It's time to organize, plan and act. Are there any strategists out there who are willing to advise the pro-deer people?
Just being realistic.
Pro-deer folks: Take me to your leader? There isn't one, is there? Not a criticism. Just trying to light some fire.
ReplyDeleteThere isn't enough lighter fluid in the world to light a fire under this group 2:20!
ReplyDeleteLook at 10:37's comment. If 10:37 thinks "Bender" and his emails are worthy of a call to the DA or AG, why don't they make the call?
No, somebody else will do it.
Wonder how the Political Action Committee is coming along? Remember it only takes 3 to get the ball rolling.
With all this focus on killing deer and commission appointment, I hope people haven't forgotten with the warm evenings this week to take in a youth ball game or two down at the improved "Crown Jewel" fields. ;-)
ReplyDelete3:06----Well, the (anti-kill) group sounds pretty fired up on this blog. Perhaps a handful might draw from that energy and organize, plan and act.
ReplyDeleteI get the idea that in the case of both the Mt.Lebo Commissioners and the School Board Directors, the opinion of the community does not matter. If so, there would not have been the total disregard by the respective groups to the opposition in petition form and citizens' of the community comments to unnecessary high school renovation, toxic turf installation, and deer slaughter. Is this community dominated by self-proclaimed elitists who have no ability to understand the rational discourse of others?
ReplyDeleteI respectfully disagree, 6:19. It is apparent from the RTK documents that Elaine has posted that the commissioners bow to constituents.
ReplyDeleteYour mission, pro-deer people, is to organize, plan and act. The garden ladies did exactly that and they got the commissioners to act upon their plans.
Why shouldn't the anti-kill people do the same thing? Again, take me to your leader, please.
Dear "The relevant, informed,and compassionate youth,"
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, but I cannot publish what you wrote to the LeboDeer women.
I know it is a waste of time, but if you say only positive things to the commissioners during Citizen Comments, they MAY listen to you.
After years of going up to the podium to speak about deer and compensatory rebounding, aerial surveys, toxic turf, bogus deer incident reports, pointing out that the school board dropping out of the ESB was a violation of the Administrative Code, pointing out that one of the items that voters approved on last year's ballot was illegal and made the front page of The Almanac, trying to get my comments amended from prior meeting minutes, asking for apologies about jokes about setting me on fire, being told I have a lonely and pathetic life by the commission president, told to seek counseling and decorating tips on choosing paint colors for living in my basement, spending HUNDREDS of dollars trying to get answers through RTKs since the information is only shared with select individuals, volunteering to clean up messes caused by others, I finally find something positive to say at a commission meeting, and I get kicked in the teeth by the one person who I thought had integrity, only because I didn't say anything positive before that night. It is sad that ALL the commissioners have been bullied by the LeboDeer women, but unfortunately, "relevant, informed, and compassionate youth," you and I can get it trouble for that. It is a tough lesson to learn, but there are consequences to standing up for what you believe in.
Elaine
It's time for the anti-kill crowd to approach ALL commissioners with a strategic plan. The anti-kill people have been misled by one commissioner and have spent the majority of their time following that commissioner's directions to nowhere than thinking for themselves and taking appropriate action. Step One: Organize.
ReplyDeleteCorrection: I meant "instead" of thinking for themselves. Sorry.
ReplyDelete9:11
9:11, sorry, I totally disagree with the first sentence of of your post. It is the responsibility of the commission to come up with a strategic plan (one that makes sense), not the other way around like you suggest. That's their job, not ours. That's why they were elected. Do you disagree?
ReplyDeleteNick M.
Saving Grace: New Jersey Deer Shot in the Face with an Arrow
ReplyDeletehttp://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=fe819b23916cc9824726717ab&id=ac602cb85f&e=6ca46d6f1f
This is what Police Chief Coleman McDonough calls humane.
Nick--- When I say strategic plan, I am referring to the deer (from the anti-kill perspective).
ReplyDeleteYou will wait for eternity for the commissioners to write anything about anything. That is why they so easily caved to the garden buddies. The garden biddies were organized, they planned and they acted.
Even if this were an active commission (and, it's not), if you thought there was a chance that they would come up with a pro-kill plan, beat them to the punch with a comprehensive anti-kill plan.
The commissioners are pubic servants. They don't tell us what to do, we tell them. Just ask Barbara Logan.
I hope I am making sense because I truly believe that this is the path to redemption for the deer.
8:27 PM, I guess my money wasn't well spent. It is apparent from the RTK documents that I posted, that the commissioners bow to a HANDFUL constituents.
ReplyDeleteNo amount of organizing will ever change that. It is all politics. In this movie, the Dark Side wins.
Elaine
May 6, 2015 at 9:11 PM
ReplyDeleteWe've brought in experts, i.e. Laura Simon, wildlife biologist and deer expert, from The Humane Society of the United States, who presented an effective plan to The Commission. Her plan was ignored. And Sandy Baker, another expert, has presented a plan. I'm assuming that her plan will also be ignored. So it's not that effective plans have not been presented, but that they have been ignored.
Nick M., May 6, 2015 at 11:14 PM
Nick. I think it's a little more complicated than who's responsible to develop a plan, and this debate is kind of missing the point.
This is all about personal agendas and politics. The elitist puppet masters got Commissioner Linfante on the Commission to launch a deer killing program. Now her successor, Coleen Vuono, was selected to do the same thing. The deer hater's baton has been passed forward. As you know, there is a small handful of elitist pro-kill ladies and commissionettes who have somehow got these current Commissioners in their pocket, and so all of the plans they come up with are going to be deer killing plans.
Bottom line. This is all about politics and who's elected, and not about who's responsibility it is to come up with a plan.
You're right, Elaine. They bow to a few. That is not a new concept in government, as you know. But are you saying that there is nothing to be done to help the deer? Are you giving up?
ReplyDeleteFollow your convictions, Elaine, and the force will be with you. It already is.
ReplyDelete8:27 pm Elaine, I strongly disagree. The ONLY thing that WILL change the current status quo is ORGANIZING a bipartisan political action committee (PAC) i.e. VOTING BLOC, that spans each ward. If all people do is complain on blogs, and no action is taken, nothing will change, and the Dark Side wins.
ReplyDeleteNick, 9:11.
ReplyDeletemy opinion is that it is the responsibility of the commission and more importantly the municipal employees to develop the strategic plan.
The problem arises when the wheels fall off those plans or they were never developed well in the first place.
Let's take a look at a few examples.
We have the Twin Hills and McNeilly purchases. Why? dis we really need $2 million worth of woods?
The community pool... way over budget!
The "Crown Jewel" turfed field... way over budget and schedule.
The field sign sales... what a joke!
The TOD. Hired experts advised there was no interest or money in it... but they kept throwing money and time at it.
The problem arises and citizens need to get involved when the people in charge can't do their jobs. Heads should roll, but they never do.
Take the deer issue. Big plan, let archers do it, except no one can figure out you need hunting permits even though almost everyone knows you need them.
Then we hire a Wildlife Specialist for advice and killing. His group bags 6 lousy deer at a cost of $15,000.
Nobody is called on the carpet, instead they blame their employers, us taxpayers for their own incompetence.
7:29 AM, please step forward and show us how it is done.
ReplyDeleteI have been used. In addition, the Dark Side has an unfair advantage. They all read this blog.
Elaine
Here is how it's done. Get three pro-deer people together (via email).
ReplyDeleteWe already know that all of the commissioners are incompetent and, essentially, worthless so far to both sides of the deer issue. I am certain that the pro-kill people are equally disgusted with the commission. They get nothing done.
First, meet and determine what CAN be done by the pro-deer people. Then, do not post it on the blog because, you are right Elaine, the pro-kill folks have the big advantage of access to this blog.
Step One--- Organize. Take me to your leader, I ask again.
Yes 7:29, I'm with Elaine... show us how it's done!
ReplyDeleteThere have been numerous attempts to get something going in the past. The same 8-10 people show up and it stalls from there on.
So, show us the way, please. Gideon tells us it's easy and it only takes as few as 3 people. So lead on, Elaine can't hold your hand forever.
10:25, so easy... then do it!!!
ReplyDeleteOh yea, 10:25 another stealth effort. Will there be secret handshakes too.
ReplyDeleteSo much for transparency, if you don't have it the start it's certainly not going to show up later.
11:31---Is public transparency required of a handful of people meeting at Uptown Coffee? I didn't realize that the agenda of private citizens must be posted on the door.
ReplyDeleteI am not throwing this one on Elaine. She asked the question. I answered her.
I already tried. Maybe another Mt. Lebonite will be more successful.
Planning starts at the grass roots level. Sure, you can incorporate others' ideas, such as those of Baker and the HSUS. People who live here must step up if they want the deer to be saved.
I can see that I am preaching to a group of defeatists. I understand your plight more than you will ever know. From now on, though, I will shut up.
Elaine - this is from Kelly Fraacsh's Blog.
ReplyDeleteAs I got involved in local government and serving as a public official, I am reminded of the most important lessons in life as a citizen of the United States of America. As an official I can speak candidly in public, as an official I can be proud to serve as a female without concerns of recourse because of my gender and most importantly I am raising two children that live freely, safely without the concerns that other children have in this world about their safety, stability and freedom.
WHAT A HYPOCRITE.
Blah, blah, blah, I have no idea what Kelly's words mean in that statement.
ReplyDelete1:41 PM (and 1:50 PM),
ReplyDeleteI went to her blog and see that it is all about the Memorial Day celebration. I see what you mean, 1:41 PM. She told me and since then continues to tell others that there are consequences to my actions both here on the blog and at the microphone. So some of us can speak candidly in public, while others have to understand that there are consequences.
I am so done with this bullshit. I can see why others have walked away. "You can't fight city hall."
Elaine
12:36, no transparency isn't "required", but if you have any expectation of growing a movement, I'm pretty sure people are going to want to know with whom they are associating and why.
ReplyDeleteThere have been numerous coffee shop/livingroom/Galleria meetings that attempted to do exactly what you propose. If those groups still exist it's news to me, so please excuse me if I'm a little defeated.
I do wish an effort much success, but it looks like you and I have already bowed out.
No sterilization permit application has been submitted. It was supposed to be submitted in April. Tony DiNicola wants to kill more deer. The pro-kill "ladies" are looking forward to more deer dying in the fall.
ReplyDeleteThe Dark Side won, Folks. Deer will be killed in just a few more months. You can thank Kristen Linfante, Dave Brumfield, Steve Silverman, John Bendel, and Kelly Fraasch for aallowing themselves to be bullied by Barbara Logan, Michalina Pendzich, Cori Vipperman, Jeanne Hoeft, and DOCTOR Marilyn Narey.
Elaine
1:41 you're right... hypocrite!
ReplyDeleteDidn't we pass a Home Rule Charter revision to keep everything gender neutral?
So what is with the "female" bullshit? Everybody supposedily can serve without recourse because of there gender and have been doing so for years.
Just count up the number of "female" commissioners, school directors, and administrators.
How about we quit playing the gender card, it's getting old fast.
Ms. Gillen and 2:20---Please understand that I wasn't suggesting that the pro-deer people meet under cover of darkness. Yes, get as many people involved as possible--- but figure out your mission first so that they know what they are signing up for. As far as I know, all or most of the prior coffee shop/living room meetings involved,or were organized by or around Kelly Fraasch. It is no wonder they failed. Ms. Fraasch is not a sturdy, reliable foundation.
ReplyDelete2:20---yes, you and I have done our tour of duty and we are no longer part of the mix. I know I am not. For the reasons in Ms. Gillen's post above regarding the imminent fate of the deer, maybe, just maybe, some fresh horses will take the reins and run a successful anti-kill campaign. Godspeed.
2:57 not knowing who you are, I suspect we've done our tours, but I'd say Kelly Fraasch wasn't the organizer of those coffee shop/etc. meetings- at least not the ones I attended.
ReplyDeleteI will agree with you that it's time for some fresh horses.
We will see if they step up.
10:32am - You had me there until I decided to go back and see if Gideon wrote that. He didn't say anything about it being easy. He said, "The point is that you begin change by beginning; and that may entail 30 people - or three." He's saying talk is cheap and whiskey costs money! He's right. Change isn't about numbers; it's about getting off your sorry ass and DOING SOMETHING! Boy, I've said it before and I'll say it again, you Pittsburghers never fail to amuse me!
ReplyDeleteBob D.
I am a resident of Mount Lebanon who signed your digital petition. Our Mount Lebanon Voices were silenced by
ReplyDeleteLebodeer: Lebo Residents for Effective Deer Management. Hundreds of Mount Lebanon Neighbors signed your petition. Please create a petition which can be circulated door-to-door. My friends and I vow to gather signatures which will surpass their 1,400 signatures.
Bob D., you're are 100% correct, Mr. Gideon never said starting a political organization would be "easy."
ReplyDeleteHis exact quote was "The point is that you begin change by beginning; and that may entail 30 people - or three."
I made the leap to using "easy" thinking he was inferring that 3 people may be all it is going to take.
He is correct on that point, but having been involved in some of these grass root efforts attended by as few as 3 people and up to 15 or more, the beginning takes more people.
Those people must have that special moxie to move people and the power to communicate and get people to follow. That is a rare commodity.
First, it's hard to get people to listen to those, shall we call them 'beginners', then it is even harder to get those that listen to commit.
So, again, apologies to Richard for putting a word in his mouth.
I still stand that I can't wait to see - the beginning of the beginning - whether it involves 3 or 30 people.
Perhaps, Bob, you can contact 2 others and begin the beginning, whether it is easy or hard.
"ALL IT TAKES FOR EVIL TO PREVAIL IS FOR ENOUGH GOOD PEOPLE TO DO NOTHING."
ReplyDeleteI was horrified to see the amount of power that five hate-filled,self-absorbed women (Jeanne Hoeft; Barbara Logan; Marilyn Narey; Michalina Pendzich; and Cori Vipperman) had wielded in successfully gaining control of our Mt. Lebanon Commission. But I'm far more horrified to read that so many of you who obviously hate what is going on in our community are, nonetheless, willing to concede victory to them!
Several of us have been in this battle since it started and we are not ever giving up. As I've frequently told the Commissioners: this isn't over and we're not going anywhere. If you are committed and ready to be "all in" to see this thing to the end; if you are ready to put planning and effort and action behind your words--would you please identify yourself so that we can come together and get moving?
Some of us have already identified to Elaine. Who else wants to join us?
THIS IS A CALL FOR GOOD PEOPLE TO BECOME INVOLVED, TRULY INVOLVED. PLEASE, LET'S NOT ALLOW OURSELVES TO BE COUNTED AMONG THOSE WHO PERMIT EVIL TO PREVAIL!
5:42 PM, I received an email with a similar request. Do you think our commissioners will change their minds with another petition with >1400 signatures? I still have a bitter taste in my mouth presenting almost 4000 signatures to our school board. We were ignored.
ReplyDeleteIf you think you can pull it off, I will get a group together to craft a petition and post the document on the blog. Readers can print off copies and distribute them throughout Mt. Lebanon. Please limit signers to Mt. Lebanon residents only.
I would like to hear from others before moving forward.
Elaine
Please email me privately at EGillen476@aol.com with your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteElaine
I'll begin by saying that I am disturbed by the people who are willing to concede defeat before it happens. I also understand that this is, has been and will be an uphill struggle.
ReplyDeleteReading the RTK documents that have been provided only strengthens my resolve to carry on. THIS IS NOT the time to back off! As far as I'm concerned the pro-deer contingent has the momentum! Public sentiment within the community (and beyond) has shown that the public is NOT willing to tolerate the pro-kill agenda. Did you really think that Benner gave up on his own? Personally, I think that the negative publicity and lack of results hastened his exit.
I have seen several comments that suggest the pro-deer contingent need to organize and focus on a message. I have, what I believe, will be a democratically acceptable solution to this problem.
I propose that the issue should be put on a referendum for the residents to vote on. This is not without precedent. Upper St. Clair did it and it removes any political, cronyism and/or self serving agenda. Let the people decide!
I'm willing to go all in on this effort. I think that the pro-kill people will be surprised (as they were a few months ago) at the support for more reasonable thinking.
Elaine and friends. Please let me know what I can do to help.
You know where to contact me at...
Sincerely,
Roger V. DeLonga
Roger V. DeLonga, May 7, 2015 at 10:11 PM
ReplyDeleteRoger, with all due respect, while a referendum sounds like a good idea; IMO, it's not the best way to move forward on this issue, at this time. I prefer not to explain why or to say any more on this blog, because I'm sure the pro-kill ladies read Elaine's blog daily. This is an inappropriate medium to discuss strategy, and why a private email group or FB group should be set up for that purpose.
11:36 Don't worry about the pro-kill people know about your goals/strategies. It's very rare that anything done in secret wins the approval of the majority. Let your goals be transparent and please don't limit them to deer. Put deer on your agenda but if you centralize over that issue, you will be limited.
ReplyDelete11:36 it might help your effort and cause, to figure out why a relatively small and until recently obscure group of women get to exert so much influence with our elected officials.
ReplyDeleteIt certainly isn't their grasp of the "facts" or their outstanding credentials that gives their position credence.
My advice, is that to play in this game, you're going to have to trump the hands these ladies hold.
For now, I would limit the effort to deer. If it works, it can be a model for future causes.
ReplyDeleteOne thing is certain. That deer did not install the Re-Elect Kelly Fraasch lawn sign.
ReplyDeletethe enraged deer ladies started with tapping into a) hysteria on one street, b) frustrated gardeners, c) an aligned commissioner and d) a cooperative municipality. so you need at least a) an organized neighborhood opposed universally against killing deer, b) frustrated residents, c) an aligned commissioner and d) PETA, other groups and the media. together, i believe you could stop another asinine deer cull. to top things off, you could add an attorney to help with various undertakings.
ReplyDeleteone more thing - read "the art of war".
ReplyDeletethis is the municipality & commission's goal:
"Lure them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion".
9:29 PM, please tell me where that neighborhood is. I thought we had an aligned commissioner. Certainly frustrated residents. For sure, we had PETA and the media.
ReplyDeleteElaine
It all boils down to money and elections. Black door deals, "wink and nods", etc...And secret meetings in residential houses. Follow the money. I remember from Sablegate, that the President of the school board, and the Superintendant, lived next door to each other. Oh, how it would be nice if the walls could talk!
ReplyDelete