Elaine,Sean raises some good points. Sean is one of the lucky ones, selling his house for $223,000, just above the average list price according to Zillow. He bought it for $183,900, so I trust his math is correct. However, I am all out of solutions. I started lebocitizens.com to get the facts out to people. I thought creating this blog would open up much needed dialog. I have no solutions, Sean. Thanks for being a faithful reader. I am opening this up to all who follow this blog. What IS the solution?
Where have you been the last 10 years. Did we not have one of the worst housing slumps in history? That being said, I purchased a home in 2004 and sold that same home in 2010 for a 22% increase. I think you need to stop polarizing everything. I follow your blog regularly because of the level of information, which i do appreciate. But all I ever he[a]r are complaints not solutions. Saying that we should do something differently is no a solution.
Sean Sullivan
Saturday, April 21, 2012
Complaints, not solutions
I approved the following comment this morning on Sold for gain and the proposed final budget but I thought it deserved starting a new thread.
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42 comments:
Sean,
You are absolutely correct in asking for cooperation and solutions. It is really refreshing to have someone who tries to light a candle, instead of cursing the darkness.
Chuck - Sean
Where are your solutions??? Are you both cursing the darkness??? Both pots calling the kettle black??? Sophie Smith
Sophie and all, my solutions were to vote, get involved, blog, hold our elected officials accountable, demand transparency, file RTKs, attend meetings, and write letters to our elected officials and local newspapers. If that is polarizing and not trying to light a candle, then guilty as charged.
Elaine
Sophie,
To your point, is something that I posted back on April 10:
Chuck Bachorski said...
Dick,
Although half-baked, my thoughts on actions and solutions are shown below:
Utilize this site to mobilize support from its readership. There appears to be several named and anonymous sources that have a thorough understanding of the SB & Municipal process as well as factual material that details our current situation.
Gather all of the facts and projections and organize them for some type of PR campaign. The delicate part of this step is to segregate the facts from the personalities involved.
Develop a presentation that details the situation along with possible remedies. For example, detail how we could utilize current recreational facilities in a more cost-effective manner. Another could be to present cost-savings opportunities to the SB.
Request to present this material at SB or Municipal meetings. If refused, conduct open sessions to make the presentations.
Try to gain some small victories to gain momentum and develop awareness.
Develop and run a slate of reform candidate alternatives for local offices. This needs to be done in the accepted structure of the election process, not on an ad hoc basis.
Continue to use the internet for educational purposes.
This is a general framework, but you can get the idea. Basically, this type of movement needs to play by the rules and maintain a level head. Bomb-throwing is not a good strategy for progress. It only hardens positions and polarizes the community.
Your thoughts?
April 10, 2012 1:03 PM
Additionally, I am to meet with Elaine & Charlotte to discuss action items to affect change.
I showed you mine, please show me yours.
I'm sorry I don't agree with Sean.
It's disingenuous to proclaim that Elaine and others only complain and offer no solutions. Actually to put it bluntly, that's bullsh*t!
Let's take the high school project for instance. Dirk Taylor, Dan Rothschild and his group of 10 others with construction experience offered advice, constructive criticism and alternatives to which one board member replied: "I have no intention of revisiting building C!"
Mr. Rothschild had a plan that he produced for nothing, he is a professional architect by the way, that provided an indoor running track (which was called for by the the athletic supporters Thursday) and would have avoided the costly $24,000 zoning/parking litigations. Which contributed nothing to our kids education or athletic opportunities. The district wouldn't even consider it and Rob Gardner, Elaine Linfante, Rob Papke and others lobbied intensely against taking a look.
So don't roll in here and make a proclamation Sean, that all you hear are complaints. That's not true and I don't know where "YOU'VE BEEN FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS."
There was never any intention to listen to suggestions.
I will agree with you Sean and Chuck, that the first step is for all parties to be honest and get the facts straight. Then work on real solutions.
But if one party is going to stonewall, spew lies and turn deaf ears, then we will continue to be divided and spend money wastefully.
Giffen Good
I haven't complained -it is merely an observation. Where is Sean's solution??? Before kudos are given to Sean - what does he have in mind for a solution??? Sophie Smith
Exactly my point, Sophie. You asked for Sean and hopefully Chuck for some advance notice of what they propose.
It's nice that they are having their kumbaya moment. Chuck has offered some observations that I could get on board with, but they are far from developed.
Did he or Sean, appear at Thursday night's Town Hall to present them and ask for support?
AGain, where have they been for even the last two years?
Giffen Good
Giffen, you may remember that the high school renovation was to be considered as an improvement for the community. The pool was going to be available for community use. That was said under oath by Dr. Tim. I was not aware that an indoor running track was offered for consideration. But now, there is a push to turf Mellon Field by a couple of commissioners and a newly appointed member of the municipal parks advisory board. Why has this suddenly become an issue with the commission? Could it be that we were misled at the Act 34 Hearing? The school directors promised us the world for under $95 million. We were told that the athletic complex would be available to the community. By the way Sean, I worked the evening of the Act 34 Hearing, but did attend that hearing a little late. I do have the transcript on lebocitizens. Yes, I am aware that there is an issue with Mellon Field, but why hasn't the school district addressed that? Why are both governing bodies in Mt. Lebanon now focusing on school district property? I would be happy to hear a solution to that issue. Is that polarizing? The Wiki definition is "In politics, polarization (or polarisation) is the process by which the public opinion divides and goes to the extremes. It can also refer to when the extreme factions of a political party gain dominance in a party. In either case, moderate voices often lose power and influence as a consequence." I agree. There is polarization going on here in Mt. Lebanon, but I don't believe I am the one responsible for it.
Elaine
Giffen,
To Chuck's credit, he is making an effort. As he said, I am meeting with him next week. He has offered some solid suggestions and hopefully, we can come up with some solutions. I am thrilled that a few people have come forward to work together.
Elaine
Once again Sophie, what do you propose?
Giffen, I like cupcakes with my kumbaya's. I am meeting with Elaine and Charlotte to further develop some type of plan.
A few points..
1. Mr. Sullivan's "gain" is mathematically 21.26% - close enough to the stated 22% such that I won't quibble over the small difference; HOWEVER - Mr. Sullivan did not make a 21.26% profit, in real terms, on the sale of his house. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the inflation rate between 2004 through 2010 was 15%. This knocks Mr. Sullivan's "gain" down to 6.26%. Then one must consider the costs of any improvements, adjusted for inflation, Mr. Sullivan put into his former house; the amount of the real estate taxes paid during this time, and the interest paid on his mortgage. Yes, mortgage interest and real estate taxes are tax deductible; but they are deductible against a person's income, reducing the amount of Federal Income Tax one pays. Uncle Sam does not give you that money back. Furthermore, according to a study by the Reason Foundation, the mortgage interest deduction helps those in the upper income brackets the most. Add all of these factors together, and it is questionable whether Mr. Sullivan, his claim of 22% gain notwithstanding, made any profit at all.
2. "Saying that we should do something differently is no[t] a solution." I beg to differ. If one sees the consequences of a certain civic action as being detrimental to a person's livelihood, property, and wealth - not to mention the community at large - then one has an obligation to suggest that we "do something differently." I have made several suggestions to both the ML Commission and MLSB based on solid, scientific studies conducted by such organizations as CATO, the Reason Foundation, the National Park Service, Duquesne University, and a host of other organizations. To my knowledge, and to his credit, only Dan Miller, formerly of the Commission, investigated any of these suggestions and took them seriously. And far from "a few" dissenting voices in this little village being the problem, the actual problem is the 63% or so of the population who do nothing to effect change, or even to assent to the status quo.
3. Instead of accusing various Blogs of being polarizing, those who disagree with the opinions published on any Blog should be happy that the dissenters exist and that we are able to openly debate various issues. I will agree that some people on both sides of certain local topics are a little "over the top" in the protestations they make, and there is no question that each Blog has its core of regular, "true believers." But the alternatives - as history has shown countless times - are depressingly predictable and likely violent.
4. Elaine Gillen has performed, and continues to perform, a huge public service in this town by providing unedited audio from various Board and Commission meetings, publishing various public documents, and holding our elected representatives' collective feet to the fire by trying to make them accountable for what they say and do - mostly what they do. I may not agree with her policy of pseudonyms - or the occasional round of anonymous comments - that one sees on this Blog, but it's her Blog, and that is all one need say on the matter.
Like it or not, what is going on in Mt. Lebanon is symptomatic of what is going on in the nation at large, with people choosing sides, calling out their foes with outlandish statements, and offering them the famous "false alternatives." But with a 16 Trillion dollar national debt, 65 Trillion dollars in unfunded liabilities (that outstrips the economic output of the entire planet), and daily assaults on personal liberty, I don't expect public discourse to improve anytime soon. And I certainly don't look to our two major political parties to lead us in the direction of free minds and free markets - either nationally or in Mt. Lebanon.
Elaine, a roomful of people showed up at the town hall meeting on Thursday wanting to work together.
Dave Franklin
Elaine, I acknowledge Chuck's initial, though loosely defined suggestions.
AFter being engaged for so long I just don't feel optimistic that he'll get the warm reception by the BOSN, VOICE, athletic supporters that he thinks he will.
So far, it seems it you and he meeting. Are Gardner, Linfante sitting in also? HAve they contacted Chuck? Have they said, yes we like what you propose, lets get together?
If not, there not one iota of diffence from the efforts that have gone before.
Giffen Good
I like, as usual Mr. Gideon's observations and believe he is one of the people that has offered some "suggestions." Dan Miller was of course, another that tried to find middle ground on issues. There were others.
Chuck, enjoy the cupcakes, I'll look forward to hearing Elaine's post on the meeting. Who knows, I may even get on board should they sound... well... sound.
I'm just curious as I mentioned before, has Brumfield, Linfante, Cappucci, Posti, Adams, Gardner, Papke or Franklin asked to join your coffee? It's really tough to build cooperation if one party doesn't cooperate.
"intr.v. co·op·er·at·ed, co·op·er·at·ing, co·op·er·ates. 1. To work or act together toward a common end or purpose."
I do applaud your effort Chuck, really hope you get something started.
Giffen Good
Giffen,
Thanks for the encouragement.
For now, I think that we, as the vocal minority need to sit down and determine a strategy to make our points and appeal to the rest of the community. Much like a negotiation, we need to establish our non-negotiable as well as negotiable points.
Once these are established, we will need to take them public and eventually engage those with differing opinions. Hopefully, they will have done the same type of preparation so that a meaningful dialog can take place.
Once again, from a high level, it is just as insane to do nothing as it is to do everything. Hopefully, reason will prevail.
Well just a reminder Chuck of the attitude you're up against.
Mr. Franklin writes: "Elaine, a roomful of people showed up at the town hall meeting on Thursday wanting to work together."
Really, Mr. Franklin, were the pre-meeting emails from Rob Gardner and friends asking to pack the house, an honest effort to "work together"?
It's well known that the Commissioner's Room seats only 50 people. So, why didn't the sports consortium send a representative group so that more residents could get in so that a multitude of ideas could be presented. No, the blanket email effort was intended to overwhelm the proceedings with vocal supporters for more rec facilities.
I didn't see Mr. Franklin say, Chuck I'd love to hear your thoughts! No he said: "A roomful of people (his people) showed up... ... wanting to work together." With whom I ask?
I'm thinking wanting to work together to build a rec. facility and turf to ballfields whether the community can afford them or not.
Giffen Good
Mr. Good, I certainly believe that emails and a full Commission chambers demonstrate a willingness to work together to accomplish something. Please don't forget that the meeting was held at the request and invitation of the Commission, not those of us who sent emails or encoraged others to attend. If you were in attendance on Thursday then you know that everyone who wanted to speak was able to speak. No one was excluded and no one was silenced. Please stop suggesting that opinions or voices were not heard.
You may not agree with the ideas that many of us expressed, and that is certainly your right. But please don't suggest that this group is not willing to work with the Commission, the SB and anyone else who wants/needs to be involved. The Youth Sports Alliance, the individual sports groups and a large group of residents will continue this effort in a positive and productive manner. We are excited about it, and we are all staying positive. This is not about us vs. you or anyone else. We are not silencing anyone or suggesting that those with opinions different from ours should not be heard. If someone treats you differently, please tell me.
Dave Franklin
"...it is just as insane to do nothing as it is to do everything."
I couldn't agree more. I also need to ask those involved.
If the Muni comes out and says we have $3million we are going to invest into Recreaion. What does the "working together" look like? Pool,parks/fields, golf, ice rink and tennis all have needs. How does the pie get divided?
Ken Ward
I'm am completely bewildered by the conversation here and elsewhere.
Mr. Franklin and others claim (somewhat justified) that our fields are in deplorable condition. So they're essentially saying is that the municipality can't physically or won't financially maintain -- dirt.
Their brilliant solution to this problem is create artificially turf fields and build an indoor recreation center.
Let's see what that entails. Artificial turf is far from maintenance free and needs to be replaced every 10 years at around $1,000,000 a field. Then the old one must be disposed off in an environmentally sound landfill. That building will need a new roof, painting and repairs on a regular basis.
Oh, speaking of the environment. We have one of the big names on the environment sustainability board, the group that righteously tells us how not to gunk up the atmosphere, supporting these new endeavors.
Hmmm, to reduce our carbon foot print... lets build an indoor play facility that needs to be heated in winter, cooled in summer and lighted 24 hours a day. Good idea, I can see the municipalities electric meters spinning now.
And if that isn't enough, environment protecting for one community, lets put up some huge light poles with those giant lights. Oh yeah, the residents neighboring Mellon and Jefferson are gonna love that.
This is just great, this environmental sustainability board puts up signs telling drivers not to idle their vehicles Something any driver with half a brain should know by now without reading it on a sign.
But that same board endorses doubling, perhaps tripling the district's electric bill and carbon emissions. Smart! Really, really smart!
Dick Saunders
Mr. Franklin, you offered so I'm telling you. Where did I say anyone could not speak at the town hall?
Yes, I did say your friends attempted to pack the hall, which is something entirely different. And before you go off that I'm denying anyone's right to voice their opinion... never said hat either.
So, if I'm hearing you correctly, should Chuck, Elaine and Charlotte come up with some viable solutions in their coffee klatch, you and yours will be all ears.
That's good, write that down Chuck, Mr. Franklin's waiting for your ideas.
And Chuck, you may want to include Mr. Ward, he has a good question.
Giffen Good
All,
This is getting ridiculous. We all have our individual opinions on these matters. We all know and pretty much agree that maintenance is the key to this whole matter. We are here now, because maintenance has not been adequate in both the SB and municipal assets.
There is a process required to determine a common ground for all. Mr. Franklin has his vision and we have ours. Let's cut the crap and start working towards a solution that most of the community can live with.
This starts with an inventory of assets and wants/needs. Then we do a GAP analysis as well as a financial analysis of what we can spend. Once we have all of this, we can make a prioritized list of what we can do, without breaking the bank. It is simple, just need some common sense and cooperation.
Just like Mick Jagger said....You can't always get what you want...but if you try sometimes you can get what you need.
"SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Google executive chairman Eric Schmidt and billionaire co-founder Larry Page have teamed up with "Avatar" director James Cameron and other investors to back an ambitious space exploration and natural resources venture, details of which will be unveiled next week."
If the 3 guys above can launch a space exploration company, it seems reasonable to believe that the sports consortium here in MTL could launch a privately funded indoor recreation facility, if they really wanted it.
Godfrey Hardy
Godfrey,
The sports folks have only wanted what someone else will pay for. The only pledge of funds we have had from Mr. Franklin is $25 to support his block party fee.
I haven't heard anyone make an effort to raise funds - only taxes and storm water fees.
John Ewing
John, he did offer to get my car washed and fill the tank with gas if I couldn't find a parking space at the high school.
A "community partner" was going to donate $10,000 or 25% (we were told both) on March 19, the night of the vote for the feasibility study. Here it is April 22, and nothing has been said about that donation. Was it another empty promise to get the green light? The same thing happened according to the Master Design Team meeting minutes for $8 million. Gee, am I complaining or is that the hate in my heart again? This thread is all about solutions. Maybe a solution would be to get all offers in writing before proceeding with a vote.
Elaine
John,
You are really turning into a one-trick pony. Just so you hear something a little different, I have a little story for you.
Lee Adams from the Mt. Lebanon Basketball Association has done a great deal of work in many areas. First, he has taken made arrangements with inner-city programs to participate in their leagues, on their courts. This has developed relationships that go outside of basketball and give our kids a little perspective on life.
Second, he and others have begged Chartiers Valley for use of their gym facilities. The bulk of our league home games are played on CV courts, at no cost to Lebo taxpayers. This type of creative thinking is better than all of the bitching that you do.
Here is where it gets interesting for you, John. Lee has a vision to build a gym to house the basketball program. He has not asked for taxpayer monies for this endeavor, so the Association is saving nickels and dimes to make this happen. The plan is to build/acquire when sufficient monies are raised.
John, there are many good things to see in this community. I am being polite when I ask you to take off your blinders and take a good look around.
I want to know how much tax revenue has been budgeted for municipal field use over the years.
If that money was not used for its intended purpose, how does spending more money solve the problem? There's the GAP analysis.
David Huston
David,
What are you talking about? Why don't we see where we are before we start thrashing around. You apparently have all the answers, so why not join in and help out?
Chuck Bachorski, is that comment from you? The spelling of your last name is quite odd.
Elaine
Yes, I misplaced the code letters
Chuck, Mr. Adams is like most of our neighbors probably a pretty good and should receive all the appropriate accolades.
Unfornately your expose raises a huge question for me.
If Chartiers Valley can open up their gyms to our Lebo kids for FREE, what in the hell is wrong with our district that they need to charge or raise fees?
What is Mt. Lebanon the South Hills Charity case? SOmething is wrong that our youth groups must go begging.
We have gyms coming out the whazoo, only 5,300 school age kids (we used to have 8,000) and we need to be CV for space.
There is where your discussions should start.
Where are our tax dollars going, why isn't maintenance being done and why do we need to charge fees?
Find that out then maybe you'll get more people on board.
Giffen Good
Rereading your comment Chuck, I see that I may have misunderstood your comment. You said Mr. Adams arranged CV court time at no charge to Mt. Lebanon taxpayers which is different than getting them for free as I first read it.
Still, what does CV charge? Perhaps its a bargain that we should continue to take advantage of. Second, if its outrageous, why can't our facilities be opened on Sundays. Why is President Posti bringing up the question as to whether the new pool will be made available to the public? That was suppose to be a justification for the design.
Thereare a lot of questions that need to answered before we start throwing money at problems.
Chuck, thats not the first time you misplaced code letters.?????
Giffen Good
Chuck,
2004 released a superintendent for $500,000
2004 brought the first $100,000,000 estimate for a HS
2004 brought the first Contract Extension.
2011 cut rifle from the athletic budget
2012 cut hockey and crew from the athletic budget
2012 brought a ticket price increase for the revenue generating sports.
2012 brought the Athletic Occupy Group to Commission meetings.
2012 brought a whopping increase in pension payments.
2012 brought a $900,000 grievance from the teachers union with $100,000 in legal fees to defend it.
2012 still has a $1,800,000 hole in next year's budget.
Chuck, what part of fundraising don't you understand?
John Ewing
John, all those things are true. Don't forget the Veterans Memorial which is being built with private donations and from Duquesne Light. None of it came from our tax dollars. The dedication for the Veterans Memorial will be on May 27 at 7:30.
Elaine
Giffen,
To your points:
Gym time is constrained for many reasons. The first is that the travel teams and the rec leagues share the gyms. We get the North Gym, Jefferson and a few elementary gyms. However, the school gets first dibs on the gyms, so we are limited. We share the North Gym with all high school things like 9th grade basketball and Winterguard.
The elementary gyms are too small to be used for teams older than 5th grade, as game speeds make small gyms unsafe. All games that are not played at CV are at the North Gym or Jefferson, usually on the weekends or later on weekday evenings.
CV is not compensated per se. Our teams pay league entry fees, and support their efforts by participating in their fundraising tournaments. This is also done by the other communities that participate in the league.
Typically, our arrangements with CV are on an annual basis. If for some reason the arrangement changes, we would have little or no options for gym accommodations.
We are somewhat unique in that we offer both rec and travel opportunities for our kids. I think USC and NA do the same.
I don't know anything about the pool arrangements. I am only reporting on what I know personally.
Sometimes I lose track on my tablet and put characters in the wrong field. I hate touchscreens!
Chuck, now I'm really getting confused.
We have travel teams, rec teams and your teams? We have three different entities for basketball? Who are we dealing with, who's asking for what?
Are the travel and rec teams content with current operations and you and Lee are asking for your own facility?
Then we have pool special interest, hocky, tennis, baseball, softball, lacrosse and soccer.
Sounds like Ken Ward's question was a good one.
WHo's on first, What's on second and I don't know is playin' third."
I'm quickly reaching a point where "I don't give a damn!"
Giffen Good
John,
Here is what I know about fundraising:
My two daughters attended Catholic school. Fundraising is a way of life in these types of institutions.
My family continues to participate in school fundraisers so that others may have the same type of opportunity, if they so desire.
We pay about $300/year for equipment and training so that our youngest daughter can cheerlead at the high school.
We organize, donate to and otherwise support additional fundraising activities so that the cheerleaders can have a recognition banquet. To my knowledge, no funds are drawn from the SD.
I coach a travel basketball team with a colleague. In addition to our time, we each pay between $200.00 to $500.00 per season for additional tournament fees, practice jersies, gifts and parties.
I am Co president of the MLGSA. Every registration fee contains a charge for the YSA. This helps defray a portion of field maintenance costs. We also help to pay for field lighting charges, lime and field dry.
So, Mr. Ewing, I think I have an understanding of what fundraising is all about. From my end, money talks. I think the stuff you spew walks.
Oh yes, Chuck, tablets and touch screens are a curse and a blessing.
We agree on that one fer sure.
Giffen Good
Giffen,
There are two basketball entities. They are the Rec League & the travel teams. I coach in the travel program.
Things would be much simpler if we could get Sunday gym times. We are in the vast minority as far as this is concerned.
From a softball perspective, I would only ask for some better maintenance on the fields. Both the baseball and softball organizations provide supplies and labor for field maintenance, there are some fundamental issues that need addressed. These include drainage, exposed sprinkler heads and rusty fences. As long as the fields are safe, then they should be good for use. We don't need Taj Mahal facilities.
I can't make comment on any other groups, as I have no involvement with them.
Sounds to me like we have enough facilities, Chuck.
The problem seems to lie mostly in their maintenance and care.
Before we go building a new indoor facility, perhaps the school district needs to open up the one's we're already paying for. As for the pool. It's a sewer and our family refuses to go there. Some of the problem lies with staff maintenance and cleaning, but the majority lie with kids and adults that treat it as their personal toilet and garbage can.
Giffen Good
Giffen,
You are absolutely correct. That is why I think we need to take an inventery of the assets, determine their use and relative condition. Once we have this, we can prioritize needs and make plans in accordance with available funds.
As far as an indoor facility, it would be nice, but it is an absolute luxury that is beyond our means. The only way that I see to make this happen is to rationalize an asset and either sell it or convert it. If you sold such asset, the monies realized could be used for an indoor center. Another thought is to figure out which asset is most expendable in its present state and convert it.
If the above is not possible, it is unfeasible to take on new projects.
For now, we need to concentrate on a good, solid maintenance schedule and develop accountabilities for implementation.
Chuck, we seem to be in agreement. Having been involved in several such efforts as you are proposing and finding them dismissed, ridiculed and laughed at, I'm going to sit back and see where you can take this one and if it receives a warmer welcome. Anything I could contribute at this point would just be a reprise.
Good luck, cuz you're going to need it!
Giffen Good
Chuck,
While you are trying to raise funds for athletics please explain why our churches have been assessed an Athletic-Facilities-Stormwater Fee to pay for your
plans.
How much was your church already assessed by our commissioners, Chuck?
John Ewing
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