Ms. Nicholas, a native Pittsburgher, is a Georgia State Licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator. She believes in peaceful coexistence with wildlife. She wrote:
"It’s plain and simple, urban culls do nothing to change the long-run total deer population in an otherwise stable environment.
There are other options available, but it sounds like the city wants to take the easy road here without exploring them."
The good news is that finally, Mt. Lebanon commissioners are willing to explore non-lethal options.
Please plan to stop by Sandy Baker's table at the Earth Day celebration in Main Park and sign up for one of her seminars. It's humane, non-lethal, and free. We will always have deer and other wildlife in Mt. Lebanon. Let's learn to coexist. Elaine
I like the flyer for the Deer Doctor -- it's the most peaceful looking image associated with deer that I have seen produced by Mt Lebanon. Can we just keep the Deer Doctor here indefinitely?
That flyer's title is utterly misleading. Unless Ms. Baker advocates removing the garden entirely or constructing an 8 foot fence, there is no possibility of deer "proofing." While a deer may prefer some plants and avoid others, a hungry deer will ultimately eat anything. Obviously, there are planting strategies so that a deer will eat your neighbors plants before yours, but once your neighbor gets wise (as most of us already have), the gardener is right back to square one.
Maybe you want to live in a neighborhood of tall fences. I don't.
How unfortunate that our most vocal deer-hating gardeners see no value to education and have communicated such during public comment. "EDUCATION IS A WASTE OF MONEY"???
This will be the SECOND fabulous opportunity for gardeners to receive assistance with their strategic planning, but I fear that those who need the information the most will skip this golden opportunity the same way that they chose to skip the "Gardening with Deer" presentation by Jessica Walliser several years ago.
What monumental egos it must take for folks who bitterly complain that they are having un-bearable problems to nonetheless refuse all help offered by recognized experts!
Elaine, that's what people like 4:33PM, who refuse to plant deer resistant flowers, use repellents, and deterrents always say.
I've been planting deer resistant flowers for years, and the deer haven't touched my flowers. However, when I put in flowers that they like, they are gone in a flash.
In addition, unless you kill every deer in and around Mt. Lebanon, the remaining deer will still eat 4:33pm's tulips. Killing deer doesn't work, and it only triggers compensatory reproduction. With more food available, the deer reproduce earlier and have more fawns. There are studies that prove this rebound. The result are the remaining deer quickly replace the deer killed, and often increase the size of the deer population. I don't know why these pro-kill gardeners don't get that scientific fact.
BTW, if all the resident implemented a deer proofing landscape and garden, then the deer would stop traveling to Mt. Lebanon to eat, and would stay in Scott or travel elsewhere.
That said, my choice is deer resistant plants over men running around with AR-15 assault rifles to defend 4:33's tulips.
I'd rather see a deer than a stranger with an AR-15 in my back yard.
Of course, 4:33pm will never open her mind, attend the seminar, or make an effort. The solution is removing commissioners who vote to turn Lebo into a private hunting club and shooting gallery, and replace them with commissioners who want to keep Mt. Lebo safe, and who supports effective non-lethal solutions.
7:40pm Yes, you are absolutely correct. I can attest to the fact that none of the pro-kill gardeners or the commissionettes, i.e. the loudest complainers, attended Jessica Walliser's presentation. That said, I don't understand their behavior. I don't understand how anyone who can find the joy in gardening and beauty in a flower, can be so cold hearted to want to blow the brains out of a doe and her fawn for a tulip. It defies compreshension.
I remember when Nancy Smith, a master gardener, who is now pro-slaughter, used to support contraception at the citizen comments. Now she is obsessed with killing deer. In an article she said, I love beautifying my surroundings by using the garden as my paint. How can she see anything but death and suffering in her garden if it's built upon the slaughter of gentle sentient beings, i.e. the doe and her fawns. It's incomprehensible.
I can't believe we have residents (4:33) who prejudge a specialist even before they come here to give their suggestions. What happened to a "balanced" approach? We gave Mr. Benner a fair chance only to find out that after 1 discussion meeting he was not an expert, furthest thing from. At least have the decency to allow Ms. Baker to have her fair chance.
... back to Agway people. Place an electric fence around your 10 by 20 foot gardens so prized and valued or better yet your entire 70 x 120 foot over assessed plot of ground. It will keep both your pro culling neighbor, traveling riff raff, and a nasty tasting whitetail deer off your grass. Your wasting your time with anything else.
Harm thy neighbor? I think not. My daughter and I have touched our fence many times and lived to laugh about it. We even have contests at times to see who will touch it. Great fun!
Place 3 strands of wire staggered in a triangle, two wires on a post 18" and 36" above the ground, place the third 2 feet in front of the first two on a separate pole 24" above the ground. That's it, enjoy your garden.
Every year I harvest my veggies, till, then plant some winter rye cover for the deer to enjoy all winter after pulling the fence down. Works like a charm.
.... oh, and get 20 real archers involved in the process, not over weight police and fireman who will hunt two days and quit. A balance will be achieved in no time and Gods creatures will not be wasted along the road side. Death is apart of life people.
Appreciate your fence suggestions. However, planting a winter rye food plot for deer in Mt. Lebanon is not a good idea, and neither is bow hunting.
Please go and hunt in the public game lands, and not in our parks and back yards. We don't want our community turned into a private game land for a hunting club. If there is hunting in the parks, residents are being deprived of safe use of those parks. If there is hunting on private property without widespread public knowledge, residents are being put in danger.
Plus, killing tame deer that walk right up to you in a suburban park or a residents back yard is not hunting, but a cowardly act of killing a defenseless tame animal. Anyone who wants to do that has no honor in my book.
Bow hunting is extremely inhumane and ineffective. Twenty- two published scientific surveys and studies indicate that the average wounding rate for "real archers" is over 50 percent. More than one out of every two deer shot is never retrieved, but dies a slow tortuous death from blood loss and infection. These wounded deer will be dying in residents yards traumatizing families and their children, and running out into the roads causing accidents.
Tracking of wounded deer and a blood trail is difficult enough in the state game lands with hundreds to thousands of acres of forest and woodlands, where the hunter has legal access to these large tracks of property to track and kill the deer. So how are hunters going to track and kill wounded deer in Mt. Lebanon where the vast majority of property is privately owned land, and it's illegal for the hunter to trespass on or use lethal weapons on this land?
"Most deer can travel very fast when wounded. They can hit 35 mph and even if they die quickly after the shot, they can travel a long distance before collapsing. A wounded deer will not go far unless it is pushed. Therefore it’s always a good idea to sit still for at least a half-hour after the shot unless you want to make the tracking job a lot more difficult. ... Timing is very important. Tracking too soon is the No. 1 reason why mortally wounded deer travel long distances and make recovery difficult or impossible. Unless the animal drops within sight, no trail should be taken within 30 minutes. The deer you just shot will be looking at the spot where it was wounded to see what happened. It will bed down soon and try to lick or heal the wound, usually within the first 40 yards if there is good cover. Don’t turn a 40-yard trail into a 400-yard trail! Blood with green matter should dictate a minimum five-to-six-hour wait before tracking." "After The Shot: Blood Tracking Whitetails" by Jerry Allen, 9/22/10.
Bow hunting is not an effective deer population managment strategy. Killing deer doesn't work. While it may seem counter intuitive, killing deer actually triggers an increase in deer reproduction and population. This phenomena is called compensatory reproduction. When the deer herd density is temporarily reduced through hunting, culling, or trapping, there is reduced competition for food, and the number of twins and triplets born actually increases. For example, a study conducted by the Dept of Wildlife and Range Sciences, School of Forest Resources and Conservation at the University of Florida sampled deer from five separate sites: three hunted and two nonhunted. The study found that the incidence of twins being born to a pregnant doe was higher on hunted land than on non hunted land. The study found the incidence of twinning was 38% on hunted sites and 14% on nonhunted sites. No twinning was observed among pregnant fawns or yearlings from nonhunted areas, whereas...18% of the pregnant yearlings and...33% of the pregnant fawns from hunted areas carried twins." Reproductive Dynamics Among Disjunct White-tailed Deer Herds in Florida", Journal of Wildlife Management, 1985.
Whitetail Management Associates of Greater Pittsburgh (WMA) is the main bow hunting club/organization that markets it's services to local communities in Allegheny County. Below are the reported deer kill totals from a couple of the local suburban communities. WMA killed 6 deer in Ross Township, and over the last three years in USC they killed between 7 and 10 deer. In its first year, the airport bow hunting program archers killed 11 deer. BTW, both Ross and USC townships are no where near as densely populated and developed as Mt. Lebanon. Killing between 6 and 10 deer will have no impact on the deer population. Bow hunting is not an effective deer managment strategy, and is nothing more than recreational hunting.
In addition, implementing a bow hunting program to reduce car-deer collisions doesn't make sense, i.e. studies have shown that hunting is the main cause of car-deer collisions. According to the National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration, most car-deer collisions happen during hunting season. Pennsylvania's second largest insurance company (the nation's 12th largest insurer) — Erie Insurance — collected data that showed a five-fold increase in car-deer collisions on the first day of hunting, and that car-deer collisions remain high throughout hunting season.
The Pa Game Commission (PGC) wants to open up our parks and neighborhoods for their hunter constituents, because hunters want access to some easy to kill trophy bucks in our parks and back yards. The PGC has totally mismanaged the deer population, and has done irreparable damage to Pa's deer gene pool and the health of the deer in Pa, and so it's no longer easy for hunters to find trophy bucks to kill in the public game lands, and so why they want to "hunt" in our backyards and parks.
Hunting is reverse evolution. Hunters kill the largest and healthiest deer, where predators kill the sick and weakest. As a result, the genes that are passed on are the weakest ones. Studies have shown that over a few generations of hunting this causes the species to become smaller and weaker.
7:51 PM wrote, "people like 4:33PM, who refuse to plant deer resistant flowers."
You should reread. The point is that deer resistant plants work until only deer resistant plants are left for the deer to eat. Most of Mt Lebanon has long ago planted with deer avoidance in mind. However when only less preferred plants are available, that's what the deer will eat. Planting strategies will only work in competition with neighbors and native plants in woodlands.
As to deterrents, many are based on the skittishness of wild deer, a trait not found in our eat-out-of-your-hand deer. As to sprays, these are short term and very expensive solutions that deer eventually ignore. Not to mention, sprays can't be used in vegetable gardens (but having a vegetable garden has been an impossibility for ten years).
Regardless, the concept of "deer proofing" is impossible. Many of the residents of Mt Lebanon have become de facto experts on the topic because of the inaction of the commission. We've read the books and we know the concepts. That's not to say that there aren't worthy lessons to be learned from Ms Snyder. Rather, it's unfortunate that the seminar is titled like a get rich quick seminar; if it's too good to be true, it probably is.
If they attend something like this, it destroys the false cover story that deer culling is based on safety concerns. You all have to remember you're not dealing with honest people involved in this mess. Now, it would be interesting if someone from one of the papers showed up. That way we could all start aggressively pushing the truth--that this whole thing is about a couple old ladies and their gardens. How sad for them to live in such a tiny universe.
6:43 am. If deer proofing is impossible, is the same true of child proofing? Or did you let your child put his/her fingers in electric sockets? Children still exist in child proof environments; the same is true of deer in a deer proofed garden. Sorry that you are looking for heaven in Mt Lebanon -- try to GET REAL or go for a drive to Homewood Brushton and if you make it home alive, begin practicing gratitude.
6:43 AM, you also write: "Most of Mt Lebanon has long ago planted with deer avoidance in mind." and "Many of the residents of Mt Lebanon have become de facto experts on the topic because of the inaction of the commission. We've read the books and we know the concepts."
Where are you getting your numbers? From John Hayes, PIO, Linfante, or Kubit? Elaine
6:43 AM....You make me laugh! "As to sprays these are short term and very expensive solutions that deer eventually ignore." Please define "VERY EXPENSIVE".....I would call paying Benner and his pose $75,000 "VERY EXPENSIVE"! You and your group of cronies expect every taxpayer to in essence pay for the "safety" of your precious flowers. Pay for it yourself. All of those flowers cannot be cheap so you obviously have the funds so go for it!
What are you teaching your grandchildren? What sort of role model are you? Maybe it is time you give Asbury Heights a call and stop giving Mt. Lebanon a black eye. You and your flower buddies have made Mt. Lebanon the laughing stock of Pittsburgh and beyond.
So many ad hominem digs on 6:43! Yet no factual rebuttals other than pointing out an auto correct issue. Weird.
I am dishonest, sheltered, part of a conspiracy, a crony, an embarrassment, and a "flower buddy.". Keep it up! I could use some more introspection. Pray tell, what else am I like?
You cannot deer proof a vegetable garden without a fence. I don't have a flower garden, but I do want to grow salad greens, beans and tomatoes. I also have a cherry tree. I didn't agree with the corrals, but there are too many deer. I lived in Lebo all of my life, never saw a deer in the '70's. Now it is an everyday occurrence. I will support archery hunting.
You comments are strange. Every deer resistant flower or shrub I've planted in Mt. Lebanon (two different houses and locations) have been avoided by deer. We are not anywhere close to having a community where only deer resistant shrubs exist. Heck, I have hostas in my backyard. The deer eat them. I don't really care that much. If I spray them a few times, they move on. What's the harm in trying to get the community to plant smarter? If deer eat those shrubs, we adapt again.
Have you tried the sprinkler deterrent? Wild or tame, I'd be surprise if any animal (humans included) wouldn't move on when a stream of water is hitting you in the face. Cayenne pepper isn't too expensive and can be used on vegetable gardens. Or you could fence in your vegetable garden like hundreds of reasonable people in Mt. Lebanon.
If "deer proofing" is absolute to you with respect to deer damage, I would say your expectations are unrealistic. Deer, rabbits, squirrels, moles, chipmunks, mice, rats, insects, etc. will always need to be considered in your garden and damage will happen, which requires you to adapt. Adapting is gardening.
Pro death to the deer only folks: What kind of world are you leaving for our children and what are you teaching them, when compassion is based upon convenience and your personal agenda?
Colorado State University writes: "Management Strategies It is difficult to move deer out of areas where they are not wanted. Not all strategies are practical for every homeowner. Frightening deer with gas exploders, strobe lights, pyrotechnics or tethered dogs typically provides only temporary relief. More practical management strategies include selecting plants unattractive to deer, treating plants with deer repellents, netting and tubing, and fencing." So unless your plan is to kill each and every deer in Mt. Lebanon and beyond, 6:43, and then fence in the whole community, we're still going to have to deal with deer.
Remember wildlife expert Benner couldn't get more than six deer in almost a month and he was trying very hard. We'e going to have deer. Get use to it. If you have the most appetizing landscaping, you're going to get a lot of deer no matter what.
According to the University though an effective deer repellent isn't costly, it's natural and probably safe for vegetable gardens. "A spray of 20 percent whole eggs and 80 percent water is one of the most effective repellents. To prevent the sprayer from clogging, remove the chalaza or white membrane attached to the yolk before mixing the eggs. The egg mixture is weather resistant but must be reapplied in about 30 days. See Table 2 for a list of commercially available repellents and their ratings against deer and elk browsing in Colorado."
Sounds like a reasonable solution to an unsolvable problem, don't you think? Hey it's worth a try... What could it hurt.
One other thing, 6:43 you say that it has been impossible to have a vegetable garden. We do reasonably well with tomatoes, lettuce and cucumbers. Neighbors seem to do well with their peppers, eggplant and even some corn.
I'd say vegetable gardening isn't impossible in Mt. Lebanon, based on evidence.
Maybe you're just not that good of a gardner, 6:43.
To 11:03 AM, I would say you are also like the most recently-resigned Commissionette! I can see you waiving your arms in circles as I read your rantings. And, as for factual rebuttals, you and your garden biddies have ignored every attempt that people have made to provide solutions to your perceived garden problems. Is your time so valuable/limited that you can't spare one hour to hear from a recognized expert and actually learn something? Or are you still discounting everyone with connections to any organization containing the word Humane in its name, concluding that this person can't possibly know anything since she isn't advocating for dear annihilation? You truly could use some introspection. Maybe you could talk to John in the paint department at Rolliers... paint your basement a lovely, soothing color...and see your therapist to work on your issues. Believe me, they're showing.
Apparently the " values "of the few, which are consistently death, preferably violent death, of innocent, living sentient creatures, is more important than the values of everyone else. Definitely a need for a therapist.
You support bow hunting? What is it that you didn't understand in the above overview of bow hunting in Mt. Lebanon?
In addition, I think you are taking the seminar title, "Deer Proof Your Garden", a little to literal. I don't think that Sandy is saying that if you follow her advice that your garden will be totally deer proof. However, I think what she is saying is that if you follow her suggestions and recommendation that you can minimize the food attractants in your yard, that attract deer to your garden, and minimize garden browsing and damage. I think she is saying that you can have a beautiful garden and co-exist with deer, but that you have to know what flowers to plant, and how to creatively design a garden using multiple methods to deter deer browsing.
Unfortunately, all you are do is attack Sandy Baker, and you haven't even listened to what she has to say. However, you support bow hunting, even thought studies show that it's ineffective, inhumane, and that it would be impossible to track wounded deer in Mt. Lebanon. And that wounded deer would be traumatizing residents dying in their yards, and increasing car-deer collisions. In addition, you'd have to kill every deer in Mt. Lebanon and the surrounding area, or the remaining deer will still eat your vegetable garden. Right - bow hunting, that make sense!
Apparently her (and others) "values" of violently murdering innocent, living, breathing, sentient creatures over flowers, are more important than everyone else's values. Preserving life isn't an option. They want death. Repeatedly. They dont want to grow as people. They arent interested in learning anything and certainly dont wish to consider any othet options. Too lazy? They prefer to remain stuck in their mindset.
The Lebo gardeners just concluded an emergency meeting in a secret location and we'd like to go on record. We discussed 3:32's comments, and after all night negotiations, we've adopted the following general principles for our cabal:
- Our values of violently murdering innocent, living, breathing, sentient creatures over flowers, are more important than everyone else's values.
- Preserving life isn't an option. We want death. Repeatedly.
- We dont want to grow as people.
- We arent interested in learning anything and certainly dont wish to consider any othet [sic] options.
- We are lazy and would prefer to remain stuck in our mindset.
3:32's comments really struck a chord amongst our secret and evil membership and we decided to call a spade a spade (garden pun intended) and own up to our foul proclivities. What might have seemed histrionic to the garden variety reader (more laffs), turns out to be pretty darn accurate to us behind the curtain.
Everything you ever suspected is true. The truth is buried, with just the top of the root ball exposed.
I would like to think that 6:42 AM's comments are complete parody, but I fear that they aren't. Otherwise, I am at a loss to explain how the gardeners can remain hardened in their indefensible positions, completely un-touched by facts or logic! I have just signed up as a volunteer for several of the up-coming Sandy Baker events. I will need paramedics standing by with an AED IF any of the former Commissionettes and the handful of deer-despising gardeners shows her face at anything remotely educational. After all, wasn't it one of their spokes-puppets who took the podium and instructed the Commissioners that anything spent on education would be a complete waste of money? Sometimes I wonder whether there's intelligent life in this town!
There is no way to deer-proof a garden. One only has to visit areas which are truly over-populated area like northern new jersey to understand that. This is what happened when deer-proofing strategies were implemented when I lived there 20 years ago(at the point ML is at now). The deer will continue to eat the tastiest browse first. Since more people will plant more deer-resistant species, there will be less tasty-browse for them to eat, and then they will eat more of the deer-resistant browse. they will not travel elsewhere for food - they will just eat stuff that historically had been deer-resistant. at some point, the ONLY true deterrence will be fencing. this is what northern jersey has turned into - suburban neighborhoods that are completely fenced. it is nice inside the fences, but parks/greenspaces are browsed completely clean up to about 5' height (as high as a deer can reach). same goes with plantings at residences which aren't surrounded by fences - non deer-resistant plants and deer-resistant plants are browsed within reach. you end up with shrubs and trees that are completely bare and only branches on the bottom, and with a top-toupee of green.
33 comments:
I was on The Almanac website and had missed this letter, Deer cull will backfire.
Ms. Nicholas, a native Pittsburgher, is a Georgia State Licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator. She believes in peaceful coexistence with wildlife. She wrote:
"It’s plain and simple, urban culls do nothing to change the long-run total deer population in an otherwise stable environment.
There are other options available, but it sounds like the city wants to take the easy road here without exploring them."
The good news is that finally, Mt. Lebanon commissioners are willing to explore non-lethal options.
Please plan to stop by Sandy Baker's table at the Earth Day celebration in Main Park and sign up for one of her seminars. It's humane, non-lethal, and free. We will always have deer and other wildlife in Mt. Lebanon. Let's learn to coexist.
Elaine
I like the flyer for the Deer Doctor -- it's the most peaceful looking image associated with deer that I have seen produced by Mt Lebanon. Can we just keep the Deer Doctor here indefinitely?
That flyer's title is utterly misleading. Unless Ms. Baker advocates removing the garden entirely or constructing an 8 foot fence, there is no possibility of deer "proofing." While a deer may prefer some plants and avoid others, a hungry deer will ultimately eat anything. Obviously, there are planting strategies so that a deer will eat your neighbors plants before yours, but once your neighbor gets wise (as most of us already have), the gardener is right back to square one.
Maybe you want to live in a neighborhood of tall fences. I don't.
Believe it or not, Michalina, there are people here who don't want to live in a war zone. Try to coexist.
Elaine
How unfortunate that our most vocal deer-hating gardeners see no value to education and have communicated such during public comment. "EDUCATION IS A WASTE OF MONEY"???
This will be the SECOND fabulous opportunity for gardeners to receive assistance with their strategic planning, but I fear that those who need the information the most will skip this golden opportunity the same way that they chose to skip the "Gardening with Deer" presentation by Jessica Walliser several years ago.
What monumental egos it must take for folks who bitterly complain that they are having un-bearable problems to nonetheless refuse all help offered by recognized experts!
It defies all reason...
Elaine, that's what people like 4:33PM, who refuse to plant deer resistant flowers, use repellents, and deterrents always say.
I've been planting deer resistant flowers for years, and the deer haven't touched my flowers. However, when I put in flowers that they like, they are gone in a flash.
In addition, unless you kill every deer in and around Mt. Lebanon, the remaining deer will still eat 4:33pm's tulips. Killing deer doesn't work, and it only triggers compensatory reproduction. With more food available, the deer reproduce earlier and have more fawns. There are studies that prove this rebound. The result are the remaining deer quickly replace the deer killed, and often increase the size of the deer population. I don't know why these pro-kill gardeners don't get that scientific fact.
BTW, if all the resident implemented a deer proofing landscape and garden, then the deer would stop traveling to Mt. Lebanon to eat, and would stay in Scott or travel elsewhere.
That said, my choice is deer resistant plants over men running around with AR-15 assault rifles to defend 4:33's tulips.
I'd rather see a deer than a stranger with an AR-15 in my back yard.
Of course, 4:33pm will never open her mind, attend the seminar, or make an effort. The solution is removing commissioners who vote to turn Lebo into a private hunting club and shooting gallery, and replace them with commissioners who want to keep Mt. Lebo safe, and who supports effective non-lethal solutions.
7:40pm Yes, you are absolutely correct. I can attest to the fact that none of the pro-kill gardeners or the commissionettes, i.e. the loudest complainers, attended Jessica Walliser's presentation. That said, I don't understand their behavior. I don't understand how anyone who can find the joy in gardening and beauty in a flower, can be so cold hearted to want to blow the brains out of a doe and her fawn for a tulip. It defies compreshension.
I remember when Nancy Smith, a master gardener, who is now pro-slaughter, used to support contraception at the citizen comments. Now she is obsessed with killing deer. In an article she said, I love beautifying my surroundings by using the garden as my paint. How can she see anything but death and suffering in her garden if it's built upon the slaughter of gentle sentient beings, i.e. the doe and her fawns. It's incomprehensible.
I can't believe we have residents (4:33) who prejudge a specialist even before they come here to give their suggestions. What happened to a "balanced" approach? We gave Mr. Benner a fair chance only to find out that after 1 discussion meeting he was not an expert, furthest thing from. At least have the decency to allow Ms. Baker to have her fair chance.
Nick M.
... back to Agway people. Place an electric fence around your 10 by 20 foot gardens so prized and valued or better yet your entire 70 x 120 foot over assessed plot of ground. It will keep both your pro culling neighbor, traveling riff raff, and a nasty tasting whitetail deer off your grass. Your wasting your time with anything else.
Harm thy neighbor? I think not. My daughter and I have touched our fence many times and lived to laugh about it. We even have contests at times to see who will touch it. Great fun!
Place 3 strands of wire staggered in a triangle, two wires on a post 18" and 36" above the ground, place the third 2 feet in front of the first two on a separate pole 24" above the ground. That's it, enjoy your garden.
Every year I harvest my veggies, till, then plant some winter rye cover for the deer to enjoy all winter after pulling the fence down. Works like a charm.
.... oh, and get 20 real archers involved in the process, not over weight police and fireman who will hunt two days and quit. A balance will be achieved in no time and Gods creatures will not be wasted along the road side. Death is apart of life people.
10:20 pm response (Part 1)
Appreciate your fence suggestions. However, planting a winter rye food plot for deer in Mt. Lebanon is not a good idea, and neither is bow hunting.
Please go and hunt in the public game lands, and not in our parks and back yards. We don't want our community turned into a private game land for a hunting club. If there is hunting in the parks, residents are being deprived of safe use of those parks. If there is hunting on private property without widespread public knowledge, residents are being put in danger.
Plus, killing tame deer that walk right up to you in a suburban park or a residents back yard is not hunting, but a cowardly act of killing a defenseless tame animal. Anyone who wants to do that has no honor in my book.
Bow hunting is extremely inhumane and ineffective. Twenty- two published scientific surveys and studies indicate that the average wounding rate for "real archers" is over 50 percent. More than one out of every two deer shot is never retrieved, but dies a slow tortuous death from blood loss and infection. These wounded deer will be dying in residents yards traumatizing families and their children, and running out into the roads causing accidents.
Tracking of wounded deer and a blood trail is difficult enough in the state game lands with hundreds to thousands of acres of forest and woodlands, where the hunter has legal access to these large tracks of property to track and kill the deer. So how are hunters going to track and kill wounded deer in Mt. Lebanon where the vast majority of property is privately owned land, and it's illegal for the hunter to trespass on or use lethal weapons on this land?
"Most deer can travel very fast when wounded. They can hit 35 mph and even if they die quickly after the shot, they can travel a long distance before collapsing. A wounded deer will not go far unless it is pushed. Therefore it’s always a good idea to sit still for at least a half-hour after the shot unless you want to make the tracking job a lot more difficult. ... Timing is very important. Tracking too soon is the No. 1 reason why mortally wounded deer travel long distances and make recovery difficult or impossible. Unless the animal drops within sight, no trail should be taken within 30 minutes. The deer you just shot will be looking at the spot where it was wounded to see what happened. It will bed down soon and try to lick or heal the wound, usually within the first 40 yards if there is good cover. Don’t turn a 40-yard trail into a 400-yard trail! Blood with green matter should dictate a minimum five-to-six-hour wait before tracking." "After The Shot: Blood Tracking Whitetails" by Jerry Allen, 9/22/10.
Bow hunting is not an effective deer population managment strategy. Killing deer doesn't work. While it may seem counter intuitive, killing deer actually triggers an increase in deer reproduction and population. This phenomena is called compensatory reproduction. When the deer herd density is temporarily reduced through hunting, culling, or trapping, there is reduced competition for food, and the number of twins and triplets born actually increases. For example, a study conducted by the Dept of Wildlife and Range Sciences, School of Forest Resources and Conservation at the University of Florida sampled deer from five separate sites: three hunted and two nonhunted. The study found that the incidence of twins being born to a pregnant doe was higher on hunted land than on non hunted land. The study found the incidence of twinning was 38% on hunted sites and 14% on nonhunted sites. No twinning was observed among pregnant fawns or yearlings from nonhunted areas, whereas...18% of the pregnant yearlings and...33% of the pregnant fawns from hunted areas carried twins." Reproductive Dynamics Among Disjunct White-tailed Deer Herds in Florida", Journal of Wildlife Management, 1985.
10:20 pm response (Part 2)
Whitetail Management Associates of Greater Pittsburgh (WMA) is the main bow hunting club/organization that markets it's services to local communities in Allegheny County. Below are the reported deer kill totals from a couple of the local suburban communities. WMA killed 6 deer in Ross Township, and over the last three years in USC they killed between 7 and 10 deer. In its first year, the airport bow hunting program archers killed 11 deer. BTW, both Ross and USC townships are no where near as densely populated and developed as Mt. Lebanon. Killing between 6 and 10 deer will have no impact on the deer population. Bow hunting is not an effective deer managment strategy, and is nothing more than recreational hunting.
In addition, implementing a bow hunting program to reduce car-deer collisions doesn't make sense, i.e. studies have shown that hunting is the main cause of car-deer collisions. According to the National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration, most car-deer collisions happen during hunting season. Pennsylvania's second largest insurance company (the nation's 12th largest insurer) — Erie Insurance — collected data that showed a five-fold increase in car-deer collisions on the first day of hunting, and that car-deer collisions remain high throughout hunting season.
The Pa Game Commission (PGC) wants to open up our parks and neighborhoods for their hunter constituents, because hunters want access to some easy to kill trophy bucks in our parks and back yards. The PGC has totally mismanaged the deer population, and has done irreparable damage to Pa's deer gene pool and the health of the deer in Pa, and so it's no longer easy for hunters to find trophy bucks to kill in the public game lands, and so why they want to "hunt" in our backyards and parks.
Hunting is reverse evolution. Hunters kill the largest and healthiest deer, where predators kill the sick and weakest. As a result, the genes that are passed on are the weakest ones. Studies have shown that over a few generations of hunting this causes the species to become smaller and weaker.
7:51 PM wrote, "people like 4:33PM, who refuse to plant deer resistant flowers."
You should reread. The point is that deer resistant plants work until only deer resistant plants are left for the deer to eat. Most of Mt Lebanon has long ago planted with deer avoidance in mind. However when only less preferred plants are available, that's what the deer will eat. Planting strategies will only work in competition with neighbors and native plants in woodlands.
As to deterrents, many are based on the skittishness of wild deer, a trait not found in our eat-out-of-your-hand deer. As to sprays, these are short term and very expensive solutions that deer eventually ignore. Not to mention, sprays can't be used in vegetable gardens (but having a vegetable garden has been an impossibility for ten years).
Regardless, the concept of "deer proofing" is impossible. Many of the residents of Mt Lebanon have become de facto experts on the topic because of the inaction of the commission. We've read the books and we know the concepts. That's not to say that there aren't worthy lessons to be learned from Ms Snyder. Rather, it's unfortunate that the seminar is titled like a get rich quick seminar; if it's too good to be true, it probably is.
If they attend something like this, it destroys the false cover story that deer culling is based on safety concerns. You all have to remember you're not dealing with honest people involved in this mess. Now, it would be interesting if someone from one of the papers showed up. That way we could all start aggressively pushing the truth--that this whole thing is about a couple old ladies and their gardens. How sad for them to live in such a tiny universe.
6:43 AM, who is Ms Snyder?
Elaine
6:43 am. If deer proofing is impossible, is the same true of child proofing? Or did you let your child put his/her fingers in electric sockets? Children still exist in child proof environments; the same is true of deer in a deer proofed garden. Sorry that you are looking for heaven in Mt Lebanon -- try to GET REAL or go for a drive to Homewood Brushton and if you make it home alive, begin practicing gratitude.
6:43 AM, you also write:
"Most of Mt Lebanon has long ago planted with deer avoidance in mind."
and
"Many of the residents of Mt Lebanon have become de facto experts on the topic because of the inaction of the commission. We've read the books and we know the concepts."
Where are you getting your numbers? From John Hayes, PIO, Linfante, or Kubit?
Elaine
6:43 AM....You make me laugh! "As to sprays these are short term and very expensive solutions that deer eventually ignore." Please define "VERY EXPENSIVE".....I would call paying Benner and his pose $75,000 "VERY EXPENSIVE"! You and your group of cronies expect every taxpayer to in essence pay for the "safety" of your precious flowers. Pay for it yourself. All of those flowers cannot be cheap so you obviously have the funds so go for it!
What are you teaching your grandchildren? What sort of role model are you? Maybe it is time you give Asbury Heights a call and stop giving Mt. Lebanon a black eye. You and your flower buddies have made Mt. Lebanon the laughing stock of Pittsburgh and beyond.
So many ad hominem digs on 6:43! Yet no factual rebuttals other than pointing out an auto correct issue. Weird.
I am dishonest, sheltered, part of a conspiracy, a crony, an embarrassment, and a "flower buddy.". Keep it up! I could use some more introspection. Pray tell, what else am I like?
You cannot deer proof a vegetable garden without a fence. I don't have a flower garden, but I do want to grow salad greens, beans and tomatoes. I also have a cherry tree.
I didn't agree with the corrals, but there are too many deer. I lived in Lebo all of my life, never saw a deer in the '70's. Now it is an everyday occurrence. I will support archery hunting.
So you do not support the Sandy Baker seminars, 11:26 AM? Is it fair to say that you only support lethal methods? What are you afraid of?
Elaine
6:43 AM
You comments are strange. Every deer resistant flower or shrub I've planted in Mt. Lebanon (two different houses and locations) have been avoided by deer. We are not anywhere close to having a community where only deer resistant shrubs exist. Heck, I have hostas in my backyard. The deer eat them. I don't really care that much. If I spray them a few times, they move on. What's the harm in trying to get the community to plant smarter? If deer eat those shrubs, we adapt again.
Have you tried the sprinkler deterrent? Wild or tame, I'd be surprise if any animal (humans included) wouldn't move on when a stream of water is hitting you in the face. Cayenne pepper isn't too expensive and can be used on vegetable gardens. Or you could fence in your vegetable garden like hundreds of reasonable people in Mt. Lebanon.
If "deer proofing" is absolute to you with respect to deer damage, I would say your expectations are unrealistic. Deer, rabbits, squirrels, moles, chipmunks, mice, rats, insects, etc. will always need to be considered in your garden and damage will happen, which requires you to adapt. Adapting is gardening.
What ever deer deterrent used by "protesters" was proven affective.
Pro death to the deer only folks: What kind of world are you leaving for our children and what are you teaching them, when compassion is based upon convenience and your personal agenda?
Attention 6:43.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/natres/06520.html
Colorado State University writes:
"Management Strategies It is difficult to move deer out of areas where they are not wanted. Not all strategies are practical for every homeowner. Frightening deer with gas exploders, strobe lights, pyrotechnics or tethered dogs typically provides only temporary relief. More practical management strategies include selecting plants unattractive to deer, treating plants with deer repellents, netting and tubing, and fencing."
So unless your plan is to kill each and every deer in Mt. Lebanon and beyond, 6:43, and then fence in the whole community, we're still going to have to deal with deer.
Remember wildlife expert Benner couldn't get more than six deer in almost a month and he was trying very hard. We'e going to have deer. Get use to it. If you have the most appetizing landscaping, you're going to get a lot of deer no matter what.
According to the University though an effective deer repellent isn't costly, it's natural and probably safe for vegetable gardens. "A spray of 20 percent whole eggs and 80 percent water is one of the most effective repellents. To prevent the sprayer from clogging, remove the chalaza or white membrane attached to the yolk before mixing the eggs. The egg mixture is weather resistant but must be reapplied in about 30 days. See Table 2 for a list of commercially available repellents and their ratings against deer and elk browsing in Colorado."
Sounds like a reasonable solution to an unsolvable problem, don't you think? Hey it's worth a try... What could it hurt.
One other thing, 6:43 you say that it has been impossible to have a vegetable garden. We do reasonably well with tomatoes, lettuce and cucumbers. Neighbors seem to do well with their peppers, eggplant and even some corn.
I'd say vegetable gardening isn't impossible in Mt. Lebanon, based on evidence.
Maybe you're just not that good of a gardner, 6:43.
To 11:03 AM, I would say you are also like the most recently-resigned Commissionette! I can see you waiving your arms in circles as I read your rantings. And, as for factual rebuttals, you and your garden biddies have ignored every attempt that people have made to provide solutions to your perceived garden problems. Is your time so valuable/limited that you can't spare one hour to hear from a recognized expert and actually learn something? Or are you still discounting everyone with connections to any organization containing the word Humane in its name, concluding that this person can't possibly know anything since she isn't advocating for dear annihilation? You truly could use some introspection. Maybe you could talk to John in the paint department at Rolliers... paint your basement a lovely, soothing color...and see your therapist to work on your issues. Believe me, they're showing.
Apparently the " values "of the few, which are consistently death, preferably violent death, of innocent, living sentient creatures, is more important than the values of everyone else. Definitely a need for a therapist.
11:26 AM
You support bow hunting? What is it that you didn't understand in the above overview of bow hunting in Mt. Lebanon?
In addition, I think you are taking the seminar title, "Deer Proof Your Garden", a little to literal. I don't think that Sandy is saying that if you follow her advice that your garden will be totally deer proof. However, I think what she is saying is that if you follow her suggestions and recommendation that you can minimize the food attractants in your yard, that attract deer to your garden, and minimize garden browsing and damage. I think she is saying that you can have a beautiful garden and co-exist with deer, but that you have to know what flowers to plant, and how to creatively design a garden using multiple methods to deter deer browsing.
Unfortunately, all you are do is attack Sandy Baker, and you haven't even listened to what she has to say. However, you support bow hunting, even thought studies show that it's ineffective, inhumane, and that it would be impossible to track wounded deer in Mt. Lebanon. And that wounded deer would be traumatizing residents dying in their yards, and increasing car-deer collisions. In addition, you'd have to kill every deer in Mt. Lebanon and the surrounding area, or the remaining deer will still eat your vegetable garden. Right - bow hunting, that make sense!
Apparently her (and others) "values" of violently murdering innocent, living, breathing, sentient creatures over flowers, are more important than everyone else's values. Preserving life isn't an option. They want death. Repeatedly. They dont want to grow as people. They arent interested in learning anything and certainly dont wish to consider any othet options. Too lazy? They prefer to remain stuck in their mindset.
I have two things in common with "the gardeners":
I like gardens and I think Mt Lebanon is extremely dysfunctional.
Could some of the gardeners' aggression toward deer actually be misdirected? Could it be that really Steve Feller is their problem?
If so, trust me, gardeners -- you are not alone. Let's get Steve Feller fired and see if your lives improve.
The Lebo gardeners just concluded an emergency meeting in a secret location and we'd like to go on record. We discussed 3:32's comments, and after all night negotiations, we've adopted the following general principles for our cabal:
- Our values of violently murdering innocent, living, breathing, sentient creatures over flowers, are more important than everyone else's values.
- Preserving life isn't an option. We want death. Repeatedly.
- We dont want to grow as people.
- We arent interested in learning anything and certainly dont wish to consider any othet [sic] options.
- We are lazy and would prefer to remain stuck in our mindset.
3:32's comments really struck a chord amongst our secret and evil membership and we decided to call a spade a spade (garden pun intended) and own up to our foul proclivities. What might have seemed histrionic to the garden variety reader (more laffs), turns out to be pretty darn accurate to us behind the curtain.
Everything you ever suspected is true. The truth is buried, with just the top of the root ball exposed.
I would like to think that 6:42 AM's comments are complete parody, but I fear that they aren't. Otherwise, I am at a loss to explain how the gardeners can remain hardened in their indefensible positions, completely un-touched by facts or logic! I have just signed up as a volunteer for several of the up-coming Sandy Baker events. I will need paramedics standing by with an AED IF any of the former Commissionettes and the handful of deer-despising gardeners shows her face at anything remotely educational. After all, wasn't it one of their spokes-puppets who took the podium and instructed the Commissioners that anything spent on education would be a complete waste of money? Sometimes I wonder whether there's intelligent life in this town!
There is no way to deer-proof a garden. One only has to visit areas which are truly over-populated area like northern new jersey to understand that. This is what happened when deer-proofing strategies were implemented when I lived there 20 years ago(at the point ML is at now). The deer will continue to eat the tastiest browse first. Since more people will plant more deer-resistant species, there will be less tasty-browse for them to eat, and then they will eat more of the deer-resistant browse. they will not travel elsewhere for food - they will just eat stuff that historically had been deer-resistant. at some point, the ONLY true deterrence will be fencing. this is what northern jersey has turned into - suburban neighborhoods that are completely fenced. it is nice inside the fences, but parks/greenspaces are browsed completely clean up to about 5' height (as high as a deer can reach). same goes with plantings at residences which aren't surrounded by fences - non deer-resistant plants and deer-resistant plants are browsed within reach. you end up with shrubs and trees that are completely bare and only branches on the bottom, and with a top-toupee of green.
Post a Comment