The PA Game Commission spoke tonight and really took over the discussion. He kept talking about sharp shooting, until finally Steve Feller had to stop him and say that the commission doesn't want sharp shooting. Mr. Game Commission went on to say that we can bow hunt without a permit with the owner's permission. So all the pro-kill people who signed up before the meeting, all written by the same person and spoke before me should be thrilled to hear that. They don't think the commissioners are listening to them even though they have over a thousand signatures for deer culling. Get four thousand signatures, and we'll talk about elected officials not listening, Folks.
Unfortunately, the Game Commissioner ate up all the time and left none for a turf update. Over an hour was spent to discuss $68,000 for deer management and nothing for the over a million dollar project. I had to leave the discussion session several times. The commissioners are willing to do lethal methods of trapping and killing deer, but not sharp shooting. Mr. Game Commissioner said that if we do sterilization, we must also have a deer cull. And it also has to be on public property, a.k.a. parks. According to Mr. Game Commissioner, it appears that the Allegheny County Parks do deer culling. What Mr. G.C. failed to mention is that the County has nine parks, totaling over 12,000 acres. South Park alone is 2013 acres. Guess the size of Mt. Lebanon. 3,840 acres. So let me get this straight. It is OK to bow hunt on your own property without permission from your neighbors. We must shoot on public property (parks). We cannot do sterilization alone. It must be in combination with killing deer. Later tonight, the commissioners were going to vote on bee keeping. Yes, bees. Madness. One pro-kill man thanked Dave Brumfield for doing his research over the misinformation that was said at the last meeting about the supposed dangers of artificial turf. Why not do the same research for deer culling, he asked. HA!
When I got up to speak, I said this:
I sent an email on Thursday, Oct 30, 2014 03:11 PM and a second request today, Tuesday, Nov 11, 2014 01:05 PM concerning the revised cost of the turf project to the commission, Manager Feller, and Gateway engineer, Dan Deiseroth.
My email was short and sweet.
"Based on the required upgrades for stormwater management, the DEP told us that the changes will be quite expensive. What is the new cost of the project? Will the SAB be contributing more funds to cover their 25% obligation?"Do you know what Steve Feller's answer was? Gateway and the municipality don't know and will let me know as soon as they find out. They are looking at cutting costs and even discussing funding.
Will you please answer my questions?
OMG. They started the project and have no idea how much it will cost or who will pay for it.
I went on to say:
I went on to say:
Pediatric Alliance St. Clair Office in Pine Bridge Mall, which is made up of pediatricians, recently blogged about the dangers of artificial turf. They mentioned Mt. Lebanon and not in a good way. And they (the pediatricians) aren't misinformed.
Please recede and reseed Middle and Wildcat FieldsFinally, I wrapped up with something that I saw on MacArthur around 11:30 PM on Election Night. It was a buck with an arrow stuck in its side. I learned tonight that Bethel is bow hunting. I asked if Bethel has an obligation to neighboring communities to contain their hunted deer within their boundaries. It was a very disturbing site to me. The answer? They have no obligation.
Total insanity tonight. I left shortly after I spoke. I didn't even stay for the budget hearing for which I signed up to speak.
33 comments:
Here's how I translate Feller's comments about the turf cost:
We don't ask and we don't tell. Dan will take care of it, like everything else in Mt Lebanon.
Until then, it's Pay as You Dig.
I do NOT believe for a damn second these a$$wipes don't know the costs. They do BUT they know the public will flip if it is outed! It's going to be just the High School project back in the 70's when the overspent. "It's almost done... We can't stop now!" crap. When can we get these a$$wipe commissioners out? It should be an easy job after the pool and turf.
This is BS! Any contractor who accepts a bid and then is hired for a construction job will do their due diligence and perform the job according to the contract. There will always be change orders; however, the engineer hired for the project should have covered all his bases including the unknowns. This is not rocket science. There has been soil testing, etc...so it's no surprise what's under the grass. These are cop-out answers and not acceptable!
11:44, I agree with you 100%. This is why we need a copy of the contract between Vasco and Mt. Lebanon. BTW, I'm still waiting for it.
11:37, I too believe they know the costs, they sure as heck had enough time to figure it out.
Elaine, the deer presentation at the last discussion meeting lasted an hour too. They are no closer today than they were then...go figure. Apparently they didn't tell Mr. G.C. that sharpshooting was not an option before he gave his talk...apparently communication is a problem. Did Kristen mention anything about bow hunters in the trees while kids were going to and from school? Did Dave mention anything about kids seeing dead deer while walking to and from school...with arrows in them?
Nick M.
Aren't there any rules or regulations that demand that if a project changes substantially in scope that it must be re-bid then voted on by the commission?
Can they vote for a turf project understanding it is $1.2 million. Then proceed after being told their plans are insufficient?
Wouldn't it essentially be a different project and need to be re-evaluated by the commissioners and approved?
If they devoted this much time to a real problem they might solve one. Considering the brainpower at the table it is just as well they waste precious time. We really don't know what bad decisions they would make if they would make any.
You can now hunt deer on your own property without permission. That's fantastic. I've had upwards of eight deer, eight, in my backyard at on time just standing there and looking at me. They remain motionless as I get as close as 30 feet. I have a clear shot in this direction with no houses. I now feel sorry for these deer. Time to buy a compound bow.
This so unacceptable! If you believe the commissioners and Feller then WHY are they digging up the fields? What happens if the allotted money isn't enough? The fields are left as a mud pit? I love the "a$$wipe" so I'll use it too. So when will these A$$WIPES get it through their heads that the money isn't theirs? We want accountability! If Brumfield wants a turf lacrosse field then pay for it YOURSELF.
5:42 If it has nothing to do with lacrosse or soccer this board doesn't care. They have their 3 votes so next comes the indoor lacrosse complex. Then I hear that Mellon is going to be lighted and turfed. So shut up and pay your taxes!
Maybe the DEP lied about the increase in cost.
7:24 AM, not if but when the commissioners will run out of the allotted money. According to some RTK info, Deiseroth warned the commissioners to be careful back in May about spending money. That was before the DEP forced Lebo to correct the stormwater issues before granting the permit. If Feller and Desieroth are looking to save money and at funding, as Feller indicated last night, are they going to bury their "cost savings" and no one will know the difference? The DEP told us that the upgrades will be quite costly. But we don't know the corporate donors, besides Gateway Engineers, Dick's Sporting Goods, and The Saloon, so why would we be told how much everything is going to cost us? Here's an idea. Scrap the $68,000 for killing deer and put it towards Gateway's bill. I'm sure J. T. Sauer will be charging us for his time last night will he listened to the deer killing experts.
Elaine
*while he listened, not will he listened.
Elaine
7:40 AM, yeah, that's it. Why else would Feller say that they have to get back to me after they have the costs figured out?
Elaine
Here's my difficulty. I agree with you (Elaine) on some issues, disagree on some others, but that's not an issue. My issue is that your approach doesn't seem to be working. If nothing, you're antagonizing people in power who - even if they were to agree with you on a single issue or three - are less likely to do so because of their feelings for you.
I guess what I'm saying is that while I appreciate the effort, I can't help but feel that much of it is counterproductive (or neutral, at best) because nearly everyone has an opinion on the messenger.
I know this comment - if posted - will be ridiculed by the echo chamber, but it is honestly offered in good faith and - allow me to stop the guessing game before it begins - I am in no way affiliated with the Commissioners, their extended families or the Lebo government. Just an interested observer.
7:40 yes that is a possibility, but considering how many projects have gone wildly over estimates, history would seem to indicate the project needs further discussions.
8:26, a good point, but didn't one of the commissioners say in a public meeting- 'we have the three votes, we don't need to listen to advisory boards, the public, etc.?
See, you jumped to assumption that you'd be ridiculed... you weren't.
There are people that agree with you, but it's hard to talk with a stone wall. Why don't you take your to the commissioners and see if they're receptive to it.
Anyone who is concerned about witnessing the death of an animal despite eating factory meat is the very worst kind of hypocrite. Period. If you buy an irradiated and sanitized slab of meat at the supermarket but willingly avert your eyes when shown the origin of your meal, you have no standing. You're chicken hawks: you subsidize corporate agriculture's animal torture but clutch your pearls at the thought of a deer being killed in your presence. Despicable stuff.
You can bet that I will be clutching my pearls if my tax dollars are used to slaughter cattle next to my house. "Period."
Elaine
I have had people warm me against affiliating myself with Elaine, but I don't care. I stand with the truth-tellers. I don't care if their sirens irritate people's ears. Wherever the truth is, I am there. Right now it is on this blog. Tomorrow it may be from the democrats, and the day after the republicans, and the day after some elementary school kids. I just try to follow the light out of the darkness...
Also--I put this question out for consideration--Which is more dangerous to the long-term health of the Mt. Lebanon community right now: The deer or the current commissioners?
- Jason M.
Here are my thoughts after attending my first Discussion meeting and regular meeting of the Mt. Lebanon Commissioners last night: I was completely underwhelmed. I don’t know what goes on behind the closed doors of the Executive Meeting – but I was a little shocked at how timid the Commissioners were during the Discussion Meeting. None of them seemed to speak with much conviction or decisiveness about the deer issue (which is all that was discussed). I kept hearing Ms. Linfante say, “We’re not the experts.” (I’ve certainly heard that before from the School Board. See all of the TERC math links here.) Clearly that’s a phrase that must be adopted before taking any kind of office in Mt. Lebanon.
Then who are the experts? It appears the Commissioners want to just pick and choose experts that agree with their agenda. People who are beyond qualified to provide data and experience and expertise on the Turf project have been turned away because they live in Mt. Lebanon and are therefore “biased”. Ms. Linfante called someone “biased” last night too - the “expert” they met with to get information about deer sterilization. He’s biased because he stands to make a profit since he’d be doing the work. What about Andrew McNitt? Doesn’t he somehow stand to profit from the turf project? At the very least, they paid him to give his expertise and tell them exactly what they wanted to hear. But the man who is advising them on sterilization is biased. Because he could get work out of this. Someone check LinkedIn. Surely there are tons of experts on sterilizing deer populations who don’t also have companies to provide that service. I’ll wait.
And the gentleman from the Game Commission? Goodness. I really thought he was going to unholster his gun and offer to go out and shoot the deer himself right after the meeting! “If you’re not a hunter, you wouldn’t understand” he said. I came away feeling like he just wants someone, anyone, to just shoot something. Want to sterilize them? Great. But you have to shoot them too. Bow and arrow? Yes. But you have to shoot them too. By the way – is he required to carry a weapon with him 24/7? Does he need to protect us from deadly Lebo deer in the commission chambers?
There are definitely more deer around now than I ever saw as a child growing up here. And I’ve seen a big increase in the number of deer just in the past year or so. I have no doubt that many Lebo residents deal with the ramifications of too many deer more than other residents. But sharp shooters? Scary. Bow and arrow. Awful. Trap and Bolt? Heaven help us that sounds cruel. I don’t have the answers. Clearly something needs to be done. But the people there to support the deer cull last night seemed almost rabid in their support of sharpshooters. Kill. Kill. Kill!
Did anyone see the tweet from last night from the Trib reporter, Matthew Santoni who was in attendance at the meeting: “Former Commissioner Mark Hamilton urges Mt. Lebanon to look south: 10 yrs of culling, 1,400 deer shot, no shooting mishaps.” Sadly. It made me laugh. There you go, Mt. Lebanon. Keep trying to meet or exceed Upper St. Clair. Good luck. Hope you can achieve the same results as USC. But if somehow you don’t – heaven help us all.
I’m not going to sign my name. Not because I don’t want to be associated with Elaine. Or that I don’t stand by what I just wrote. I just don’t want my name associated with the vitriol, childish comments and insults I fully expect to be hurled at me by anyone who doesn’t agree with what I just took the time to type out. Make me proud, Lebo.
PS – I actually attended last night’s meeting to hear what they had to say about the Turf project. Nothing new other than they don’t know how much it’s all going to cost. Yet the bulldozers keep rolling……..
My comment should say, "Former USC commissioner mark Hamilton..."
J. T. Sauer will bill Gateway for his appearance last night and Gateway will, in turn, bill us. Sauer didn't say a word about the turf project. Pretty nice gig.
Elaine
I cannot wait to get a bow and shoot the big buck that practically lives in my yard!!!!!
1:14 & Mark Hamilton,
Having a *very* long standing history with USC, I can tell you generally that the administration is a) more honest, respectful, and competent and b) serious about public safety.
USC also has a ethics code for its commissioners and prevents egregiously corrupt actions on the part of commissioners in the way they structure their government.
These things don't cost money; they require thought and a commitment to moral behavior.
While we're all fixated with artificial turf this little news from the Almanac may go by unnoticed.
"Lebo HS Renovation at 93% of Contingency Budget"
"We have less than $300,000 in contingency remaining and a year left in the project," Berkebile replied. "I would think there is a good possibility we're going to need more resources."
If you have a copy of Ed Kubit's FAQ color mailer on the high school project you may want to hang onto it as it could become a real collector's item, just like the Chicago Tribune "Dewey defeats Truman" edition. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-12-06/news/ct-talk-dewey-defeats-truman-1206-20121206_1_edition-storage-locker-copy
http://www.mtlsd.org/highschoolrenovation/boardfaq.asp
"What is the cost of the project?"
The cost of the project is still fluid. The maximum it could cost would be $113, 274,765 which translates into $340 a year on a home assessed at $100,000. This includes contingencies of about $8 million for unknowns and does not take into account that bids on recent school construction projects came in at 17% to 25% below their original estimates. Additionally, we are working with our architects and construction managers to find ways to further reduce the cost through value engineering. The School Board is committed to find ways to reduce the cost of the project so the final cost will be less than $113,274,765. For more infomation about the cost of the project for homewners and project financing, click here."
Don't you just love that Mt. Lebanon value engineering? Now we seem to be rushing through another project - artificial turf - and no one seems to know offhand exactly what the final bill is going to be.
Amazing!
4:13, just wondering. After that last reassessment are there any $100,000 homes left in Mt. Lebanon?
Wasn't that just a sneaky way of raising taxes on some moderately priced property?
Let's talk about Elaine... I couldn't go to my commissioners for help. He was already on the other side of what turned out to become a neighborhood issue. Elaine stepped up and not only gave facts on the issue but moral support. Her friendly words meant so much! She saved me thousands but giving me the confidence to not rush and hire an attorney. In the end we own and our commissioner and friends lost. I'll stand with our un-elected commissioner, Elaine! Thanks for everything!
Elaine also helped us with a Zoning Hearing issue. I would have never went to our Commissioner as I know he would never left a finger to help. In fact I would expect him to lie and point us in the wrong direction. People talk about the country being divided into two guess so is Mt Lebanon. Hopefully when the next election rolls around we get commissioners without a field sports agenda and they pull the community together. Thanks Elaine! You made a scary, difficult situation a manageable one. We can't thank you enough.
Elaine helps everybody. End of story. She is a Girl Scout.
I am listening to this Com Mtg and cannot believe the fear of deer. I am not afraid of deer. At all. I believe the commission is perpetuating fear of this animal for political benefit.
It's too bad MTL denies that the real threats in MTL come from automobiles and perhaps, burgeoning drug use.
10:15
If you want to change things, put down the hope and pick up a campaign petition. Nothing will change by complaining. We have to get rid of the four commissioners and the entire school board.
9:29 I would give anything to be able to do such but I'm barely able to work as I was injured in a serious accident. I would try to help someone willing to take on our commissioner. I would love to be able to attend commissioner meetings but just getting to them is hard. Handicapped parking is a joke around here. Everyone and their mother has a handicapped placard and using a wheelchair uptown is not a fun adventure. My service dog and I were almost hit by a truck trying to cross Washington Road by the school when going to pay my taxes. But give me a time and date and I'll do what I can.
http://www.thealmanac.net/article/20141113/NEWS/141119966
"Hunting deer does not require a permit in and of itself, so long as hunters have property owners’ permission and follow other state laws, such as hunting in daylight and being at least 150 yards away from schools and playgrounds. A permit would be required for other deer control options the commission is considering, such as trap-and-euthanize and sterilization."
Since it is now obvious that our local officials don't have a good grasp of laws and regulations (HR Charter change), could they be ignorant of our own municpal codes.
http://www.mtlebanon.org/documentcenter/view/3876
"Chapter XI - parks and Recreation
Section 102: No person shall carry a firearm or shoot at or throw at or set snares for wildlife."
So the way I see it- they need to ask each individual property owner according to state law for permission to hunt deer on their property and if they limit the cull to public parks they need to change the code first.
I don't think they will actually cull. Maybe I am too hopeful but with the need for permits and the novelty of sterilization in this state, it could be a long time before they have all their plans straight. I think the bad boy commissioners are tricking Kristen.
9:08 AM, I wish that to be true. They are opposed to sharp shooting, but they are moving forward with "deer management." This will include bow hunting, trap and bolt, which is allegedly illegal here, and deer sterilization. Kristen has been focused on killing deer from the time she was campaigning in 2011. That is all she cares about.
Elaine
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