McNeilly (2)
Bird Park (4)
Portions of Iroquois Park (5)
The Conservation District on Connor Road/Terrace (6)
Golf Course (1)
Robb Hollow Park (3)
Numbers represent priorities.
There are 20 volunteers from four different municipal departments; IT, Police, Fire, and Public Works. It will be done on December 26, 2014 through January 24, 2015 and off the clock. The time period will be one month, six days a week, excluding Sundays, during daylight hours. The municipality will pay the $15 donation fee for the Food Bank since the archers are donating their time. All hunting will be done from temporary tree stands. The archers are responsible for entrails but not the blood. All areas will be parceled with archers assigned to each parcel. No baiting of deer. Antlerless deer must be taken first. Hours of operation of half hour before dawn to half hour after dusk are being considered.
Brumfield is for the Golf Course and McNeilly. He is on record saying that he has concerns about McNeilly. I asked the police chief if they will alert the neighboring communities and they may. Mt. Lebanon residents will be notified by Lebo Alerts, through Facebook and Twitter. Maps will be on the municipal website. In addition, I requested a copy of what the chief passed out to the commission and he said that it is still in draft form.
The archery will be done while the two permits from the Game Commission are being considered in Harrisburg.
To be continued.
Update December 10, 2014 5:34 AM From another sleepless resident.
79 comments:
You mean none of the blood-thirsty commissioners volunteered?
No, we are very lucky to have 20 municipal employees donate their time to hunt.
Additionally, none of these locations will have any impact on the Virginia Manor folks or the speakers from Baywood.
Elaine
Let me add, the 20 volunteers have not passed any tests or background checks, as of yet. The actual number may be lower.
There are qualifications but when I asked Chief McDonough for a copy of the qualifications, he told me he needs to clean the documents up a bit first.
Nick M.
Nick - He probably needs to clean them up because they come from Whitetail Management Associates and some of their practices are not exactly on the up and up.
INSANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Police Chief McDonough won't give a copy of what he handed to the Commissioners to Elaine,i.e. it's still in draft mode, and he won't give a copy of the qualifications for archers to Nick M., i.e. he needs to clean the document up a bit first. This sounds like a bunch of BS from Police Chief McDonough, and intentional coverup. What will he cover up next - bow hunting accidents? Mt. Lebanon residents have a right to know what is going on - what about transparent government. Chief McDonough is threatening resident safety by organizing a community bow hunt, but he won't share information about the hunt with Mt. Lebanon residents. This is outrageous and residents should not stand for it!!!
Um, this cull, supposedily runs during daylight hours?
If that is so, how many IT employees work in the evening for the municipality?
The other issue, after 3 pm, if we get a nice snow in January many kids and families use the the big hill on #7 to sled. Some Sunset Hills kids walk through the golf course to get to it.
Parents, you may want to reconsider the PA Game Commission's advice for non-hunters snd get some of those hi-visibility orange vest.
To me, this is another Commission poorly thought thru plan, like Twin Hills, McNeilly, Turf and the pool renovation.
- WS
2:01 AM, the Chief said it is a work in progress.
3:55 AM, I'm not worried about IT. Are we going to have the others who worked all night in tree stands the next day?
I should be sleeping right now. I'm sure all the pro-cull are sleeping peacefully.
Elaine
I find it extremely disturbing that Chief McDonough is taking such a proactive lead roll in pushing for and organizing bow hunting in Mt. Lebanon. I don't think part of his job description is turning Mt. Lebanon into a private hunting club for municipal employees. I don't understand why he seems to be pushing so hard for this hunt, and expanding it to so many parks. From the Commission sessions I watched, I didn't see any Commissioners pushing to expand hunting to so many parks or so quickly. I remember Brumfield expressing serious concerns with bow hunting in the parks, and I don't think Kelly Fraasch was supporting bow hunting or expanding it - however, maybe I'm mistaken. So who is pushing Chief McDonough to expand this hunt, or is he doing it on his own? I am truly longing for the days of our past Chief Tom Ogden - he would have never done this to our community. If this hunt blows up, I hope Chief McDonough and others will be held accountable. So what Commissioners voted to support this expanded bow hunting plan?
Kids, don't eat the red snow!
8:14 AM, all but Kelly. Chief McDonough was pushing to bring in professional archers and wounded veterans, as well. I apologize for possibly getting this wrong, but I think I heard the chief say that he was one of the archers.
The additional locations selected were in allegedly high deer/vehicular accidents areas. From everything I read, these wounded deer will increase accidents. I have had people ask me where Iroquois Park is located. It is just below the Galleria Parking Garage. The hunters will be situated in an area which will be one of the busiest days of the year for the Galleria - December 26. This is going to cause more accidents.
I hope there isn't any snow during Christmas break. Kids go sled riding in these areas, especially the golf course. On the plus side, the PIO is promoting the sale of golf course gift cards, the perfect present.
By the way, the commission never voted on this. They will not be meeting until January 2015.
Elaine
True or untrue... All the Commissioners are supporting the archery?
Untrue.
Elaine
So employees will be hunting off the clock as private individuals. OK, so what kind of liability insurance will they be required to carry? Whitetail Mgt. requires their hunters to carry 1-million in liability coverage. If hunting is densely populated communities like Mt. Lebanon is so safe, why the required 1-million in liability?
Are the parks going to be closed down during the hunt, or are residents, kids, and dog walkers, supposed to share the park with hunters? Actually, how could they close them down, since they are surrounded by homes with kids crossing through parks as shortcuts all the time?
"Hours of operation of half hour before dawn to half hour after dusk are being considered." So if approved, there will be bow hunters, hunting in our parks 1/2 hr. in darkness before dawn, and 1/2 hr. in darkness after dusk. We will have camo dressed men with lethal weapons prowling through our parks, and shooting at targets in the dark. Sounds safe - great idea!!!
Any marked arrows strategy to track arrow shot panicked deer, that may run into the roads causing accidents, die in residents yards, run through glass windows, etc. or to track missed shots, lost arrows, arrows that fall out of the deer in the parks or yards running away, i.e. these arrows are potential razor sharp booby traps for kids sled riding in the winter and playing in the spring? And who is liable if an arrow struck deer runs into the road causing an accident that results in a serious injury or death, or any injuries directly caused by wounded deer?
"Mt. Lebanon residents will be notified by Lebo Alerts, through Facebook and Twitter. " What if you aren't on FB or Twitter?
Again, so what if a wounded deer runs onto a residents property, can a hunter trespass and kill the deer w/o the property owners approval? A resident from an earlier post called the police and asked this question. The police directed her to Tom Kelley, the Public Works Director. It didn't sound like she connected with him. However, she ended up being referred to the website, and it didn't seem to me that she found an answer. So Mt. Lebanon is kicking off this misguided community deer hunt, and it's like calling the 3 stooges for answers. The police don't know - call public works - public works don't know - check out the website. Does this concern anyone?
"The archers are responsible for entrails but not the blood." Isn't that nice. Can you just picture how nice Bird Park and the others are going to look with large blood stains throughout the park where the deer have bled out or were gutted, and the blood trails left from wounded deer running through the parks and neighborhoods, and the blood trails left from hunters dragging the bloody deer bodies out of the parks. Just what you want to see taking a relaxing stroll through the park. And what about your kids? As I understand, some Commissioners were opposed to passing a more flexible fencing ordinance, because it would be unsitely. Hey, but pools of blood in our parks - no problem.
Who is in charge and responsible for this hunting program?
This seems like a totally hairbrained plan, and an accident waiting to happen.
"So what Commissioners voted to support this expanded bow hunting plan?"
Responses:
"All but Kelly"
"By the way, the commission never voted on this. They will not be meeting until January 2015."
Confused - if they are moving forward in Dec. with this expanded hunt, I'm guessing it was voted on - right?
Elaine, your comment at 11:01pm says it all. Who wouldn't push for something that in no way, shape or form could possibly negatively impact them? "Eat More Venison - as long as the my kids aren't put at risk and no bloody deer end up in my yard." This is all so disgusting and disgraceful.
Bow hunting increases car-deer collisions
Bow hunting will increase car-deer collisions. According to the National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration, most car-deer collisions happen during hunting season. Pennsylvania's second largest insurance company (the nation's 12th largest insurer) — Erie Insurance — collected data that showed a five-fold increase in car-deer collisions on the first day of hunting, and that car-deer collisions remain high throughout hunting season. This is caused by hunters pushing deer out into the roads and panicked wounded deer running into the roads. In addition, once you kill the matriarch doe, whose job it is to safely cross her family, her orphans will run into the roads without caution.
The Commissioners ignore these facts and blindly move ahead. If their bow hunting program is the cause of a car accident and death, who is responsible?
Why Hunting and Killing Deer doesn't Reduce the Deer Population
While it may seem counter intuitive, killing deer actually triggers an increase in deer reproduction and population. Reproductive rebound is a well documented population dynamic in deer and other mammals. When the deer herd density is temporarily reduced through hunting, culling, or trapping, there is reduced competition for food, and the number of twins and triplets born actually increases. Studies have show that after a hunt surviving females produced enough offspring to not only replace those killed, but enough to actually increase the size of the herd. This is called reproductive rebound or compensatory reproduction. This phenomenon explains why hunting as a management tool has resulted in an ever-increasing number of deer in this country. For example, a study conducted by the Dept of Wildlife and Range Sciences, School of Forest Resources and Conservation at the University of Florida sampled deer from five separate sites: three hunted and two nonhunted. The study found that the incidence of twins being born to a pregnant doe was higher on hunted land than on non hunted land. The study found the incidence of twinning was 38% on hunted sites and 14% on nonhunted sites. No twinning was observed among pregnant fawns or yearlings from nonhunted areas, whereas...18% of the pregnant yearlings and...33% of the pregnant fawns from hunted areas carried twins." (Reproductive Dynamics Among Disjunct White-tailed Deer Herds in Florida", Journal of Wildlife Management (1985)).
Laura Simon, The Humane Society of the United States's wildlife biologist writes: “One of the main problems with trying to manage deer through any kind of hunting or culling – as repeatedly cited during a Smithsonian Institute conference on Deer Overabundance (McShea et. al 1997) – is that deer are highly prolific, and their high reproductive rate can quickly compensate for declines in their population. They exhibit higher productivity (i.e. more twins and triplets are born, have higher survival rates, etc.) as their numbers lessen and more food becomes available for the remaining deer. In other words, they ‘bounce back’. ... We do not see any evidence that hunting or culling works over the long-term or is an answer for suburban deer conflicts.”
Bottom line, killing deer is not a solution to a problem, but a commitment to a permanent problem.
Again, the Commissioners ignore the facts, and blindly move forward.
I would encourage everyone to watch part 2 of the discussion session regarding the deer situation and tell me what part makes sense.
For the small number of deer that may be eliminated, is it worth all the associated risks?
My concern was the neighboring townships. Elaine pointed out to me that Robb Hollow itself borders 2 other townships that being USC and Scott. Can a hunter cross into a neighboring township to retrieve a deer that was shot but not killed? Will they need to close the golf course being that it is normally open year round?
I would also like to review the liability policy to see how it covers accidents if someone is accidently hit with an arrow, a volunteer falling out of a tree stand, a deer being hit by a car because it was hit with an arrow but not killed??
Too many questions folks.
Nick M.
This seems so so unsafe. And I was thinking the same thing Elaine- I doubt the deer around Baywood are coming from any of these areas.
Who is the Chief's boss?
Feller.
Feller is giving the direction on this folks.
Feller has always been for deer culling. That goes for Tom Kelley too.
The video to the meeting is available on the Municipal website here.
Please take the time to watch this portion of the meeting. The video runs a little over 34 minutes. Will someone please call Myrtle Avenue School and let them know. I can't do it because the Queen would accuse me of harassing the principal.
Parents, PLEASE don't wait until your child is exposed to this. The damage will be done. Get involved now!
Elaine
My problem...
by what right do the "Royals" have the authority to bestow on thttp://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsoathlaw.asphe "Sheriff of Nottingham" the discretion of which loyal subjects may hunt deer, volunteers or not?
I'm not a hunter, but the ones I know I so into the hunt and the meat that they
would give their left --- to bag more than their legal limit of venizon.
So the question about whether we're running a private hinting preserve for a few individuals is a good one.
How will we know that the meat will be going to soup kitchens?
What records will we have of the number of deer culled? Will it just be somebody's word that they bagged one, two or three today? Hell, we can't even get an accurate count of the deer population to begin with.
What makes these 20 municipal employee volunteers more skilled and responsible hunters than anyone else?
Why do we make some money on this "golden recreational activity."
The money-hungry commissioners are will to sell pretty much anything in the bubble for a buck (no pun intended) from naming rights to field signs. So why not sell deer hunting permits to qualified hunters?
- WS
Of the 20 who volunteered, 7 of them are police officers. The chief said that he will be one of them. I just listened to the meeting again. Isn't it nice that we are giving up to 20 municipal employees the opportunity to hunt so close to home?
Kristen stressed again that trapping will be done next year in private yards. Since we are paying the donation fee for the archers who are graciously donating their time to this archery program, we would also be funding the trapping for the private residents who are graciously lending use of their properties. Yes, this is definitely a community of givers.
Elaine
This is insanity. The picture of the bloody snow is disgusting.
Why don't we charge a fee to those residents that want a trap on their property?
We charge a fee for everything else... from stormwater to parking to field use. Why should anyone get their deer exterminated for free?
If they have roaches, mice or wasp will will we be paying to exterminating them as well on private property?
-WS
A suggestion to the residents who give permission to and want hunters to trap on their property: Pay a $100 fee which would then go to Public Works coffers to prune trees along our municipal roads that are dangerous to motorists and electrical lines.
Because that is the way we have always done it. We were told that to have a block party, it costs $25 which helps pay for the PW person to drop off and pick up the blockades.
1:28 PM, yes, it is disturbing and it is only a photograph. Take action. PLEASE.
Elaine
Barbara Logan - Do you PLAN to kill deer with your car?
The ethics of cars and deer in Mt Lebanon is this: drive carefully.
The ethics of caring for people in Mt Lebanon is this: address the #1 hazard.
The ethics of public education in Mt Lebanon: state the real risks and hazards, not the ones you want to inflate so you can push through your political gardening agenda.
Why don't we charge a fee to those residents that want a trap on their property? We charge a fee for everything else... from stormwater to parking to field use. Why should anyone get their deer exterminated for free?
I'd pay this fee.
If they have roaches, mice or wasp will will we be paying to exterminating them as well on private property?
All animals are owned by the Commonwealth. Remember Robin Hood ran afoul of the Sheriff of Nottingham for poaching the King's deer? Still holds true. The state owns the wildlife and the state decides which species we may kill and which we may not. I think I speak for many Mt Lebanon residents who say that if we permitted to hire a deer exterminator, we would have done so a long time ago.
What I find truly remarkable is the low level of basic knowledge of biology in these comments. As a vegetarian, I can assure you that I cause far less animal suffering than you lily-livered NIMBYs. Mt. Lebanon is not a wilderness. We purposely keep out many of the natural predators that a whitetail deer living in a true wilderness would be fearful of. Since we inhibit the wildness of Mt Lebanon, we must act in the stead of those predators. Since we claim dominion, we have to assume responsibility for keeping the population of megafauna in check. Whitetail deer are doing untold damage to our forests.
You're agast at the sight of blood, unless it's dripping from the steak you ordered medium rare. None of you protest the butcher's counter. None of you harangue the Orkin man. Not many of you pull invasives from Bird Park. This blog has closed your eyes to the horrors of corporate agriculture. You're all so concerned that your kids might see a dead or dying animal, despite feeding them the same flesh. How many of you have purebred dogs and ignore the abuse that entails? It makes no sense at all.
-WS 1:36 PM "Why don't we charge a fee to those residents that want a trap on their property?"
WS, I think you are asking the wrong question. The residents that want deer trapped and killed on their property should have to pay the full cost, i.e. $300-$600 for each deer. Why should other residents, and residents who don't support the use of their tax dollars toward the extermination on deer, and residents who are willing to plant deer resistant flowers and resolve the deer browsing issues themselves, have to foot the bill for the residents who refuse to plant deer resistant flowers?
1:45 your suggestion seems more than fair, except put the $100 fee into the cull fund which one commissioner seems to think we should do annually.
With all the so-called proponents for the deer extermination that cull fund should be flush with money in no time... Right??? ;-)
Bet those blood-thirsty cull advocates disappear a real fast when THEIR money is on the line.
That photo says it all---what a sickening message it sends to our kids!
Go back to Genesis, folks---this planet belongs to all of us and it's high time we learn to share it.
To 3:47:
Your arguments are silly. Having deer shot and killed in front of your house is much different than eating meat processed by a butcher or meat processing plant.
Also steaks do not have any blood. The blood is drained from the animal. The juices are water and myoglobin.
3:47 PM, your claim that you would pay this fee would carry so much more weight had you signed your name. Where should Mt. Lebanon send the bill? 85 Roycroft?
Elaine
I am really concerned about safety. There are so many kids walk through bird park to and from school, as well as people walking on the trails. So they will be like walking through an ancient battle field with flying arrows/crazily running deers?who will be responsible if there is an accident? What about lost arrows as potential hazards?
Personal opinion.
Our Chief and his officer are pretty good, but on the deer issue they shouldn't be involved than providing accurate info on the number of deer/vehicle/pedestrrian incidents.
Maintaining or culling deer should under Animal Control's umbrella, not the PD's.
To 3:47 - Are you high?
Mt Lebanon has a GIS department that makes maps and I believe residents deserve to see a map of the legal boundaries for hunting during this cull.
See page 3 of the link below for a map created by the Village of Hastings on Hudson. One the true parameters of a safe and legal cull are measured, we will see how many of these parks are eligible for an archery cull.
If GIS doesn't cooperate, as sometimes this department can REALLY MESS WITH PEOPLE, there's always Google Earth!
Oops. Here is the link for page 3:
http://www.hastingsgov.org/Pages/HastingsNY_Documents/Hastings%20DEC%20Draft%20Permit%20Request.pdf
10:59, Chief McDonough told me earlier today that the handouts that were used last evening will be available online after the revisions are made, sometime towards the end of the week.
Maps were also created and used last evening, why don't you send an email over to the Chief and see if he will post those too.
Nick M.
How many in Mt Lebanon died when Upper St Clair culled deer? Same with all the other deer culls across the US? But how many have died when involved with a MVA caused by deer. There was one a week ago on the Parkway. A young man died when a deer was hit and crashed through his windshield. My kids witnessed that! I was against the cull until that.
Jack Sr.
I find it disturbing that the Mt. Lebanon police chief (himself) and 7 police officers will be hunting in our parks. The police are supposed to make us feel safe, not be the hunting threat in our parks and neighborhoods that many of us fear. This is a clear conflict of interest. Who will residents call to enforce safety violations or report incidents to? How can we expect them to cite themselves with safety violations, or to arrest each other for trespassing or other violations? As if hunting in our densely populated community wasn't enough threat to residents, now we can't even count on the police force to protect us. This is a sure way to damage police and community relations. This demonstrates extremely bad judgment on Chief McDonough's part and the Commissioners.
I think the Mt. Lebanon Commissioners are missing the point -- as usual.
All of Mt. Lebanon is an accident waiting to happen because of poor lighting. This is most obvious this time of the year, when it is dark before rush hour and people are zooming their SUVs and BMWs (and a few Subarus) down the side-streets to avoid the main-road traffic-jams.
Many of the streets are too narrow, and too crowded, to be that dark. The accident risk here is not the deer. One could hit a deer, but would more likely hit a person, and even more likely, hit another car.
Perhaps some method should be used to control the deer population, though it certainly should not be turning Mt. Lebo into the Wild West for venison vigilantes. Scarce public resources that have been misused (e.g., turf project) should instead be used to raise the dimmer on our streets.
- Jason M.
Jack Sr. and what was the speed limit?
No one has been killed in an accident with a deer when in Mt Lebanon. Why, because the speed limit is usually 25, in very few locations is 45. We don't exceed 45 in Mt Lebanon. Therefore if we are going the speed limit we reduce our likelihood of an accident.
Vehicle collisions with deer occur when the speed limit exceeds 55 and the rate is even higher for example 70.
2:52 AM, the chief said that there will be seven in total from the police department. Kelly asked if there will be police presence during these hunts. Excellent question. I think they will be there hunting. If someone could please go back and check the video to confirm, I would appreciate it.
The archers will be vetted. They are all licensed hunters. But isn't it a hobby? Didn't someone post anonymously that he/she has a smile on his/her face when talking about killing deer? It is an ideal situation for the hobbyists. They just run over to Starbucks if they get cold and grab a coffee. No, even better, Dunkin' Donuts will be open by then. Location. Location. Location.
Elaine
I am curious way back when I went to a meeting Dave Brumfield shared his willingness to cull by sharpshooter if PD did the shooting. I recall the Chief thinking it was a really bad idea but now he's ok? Interesting chain of events. Is it the method or what happened?
I'm surprised that Brumfield voted for bow hunting period, and especially, for this expanded hunting program. He initially appeared to be totally against bow hunting because of safety concerns.
No doubt, if the Commissioners weren't shielded personally from liability, this hunting program would have never been approved.
Lets see now - in just a few days the deer-kill bunch have increased the number of "certified" municipal employee bow hunters from an original 10 to now 20, from originally 3 muni departments to now 4, and for culling on originally just 2 very large parks to now a total of 6 parks - a classic case of absurd unbridled creeping commitment.
And this will supposedly occur during only daylight hours 6 days per week, 5 of which are work days, over 30 days starting Friday December 26. Never mind that this will include about 11 no-school days, vacation days plus Saturdays, when children and families will likely or otherwise be in and using those parks.
And what does the muni statement that "this will not be on the clock" actually mean ? Are the muni employee hunters donating their time as vacation days, or are they those normally scheduled for night shifts and not claiming overtime; or, is the muni giving them time-off ? If time-off either with or no-pay for up to 30 days, it strongly suggests we don't need these employees full time, and maybe not even part time ! Anyone address that possibility ? Nah, it's not the usual course of action. Submit a RTK.
Jogger shot by deer hunter on Cape Cod
By Associated Press December 9
BARNSTABLE, Mass. — Police on Cape Cod say a deer hunter has been arrested after mistakenly shooting a jogger in the woods.
The 39-year-old jogger was seen staggering out of the woods near Barnstable Municipal Airport shortly before 5 p.m. on Monday. He was taken to Cape Cod Hospital, where he was reported in stable condition with pellet wounds.
Police say the hunter is a 47-year-old man from Cape Cod. He is expected to be arraigned in Barnstable District Court on Tuesday on several charges, including unlawful possession of a firearm and careless or negligent use of a weapon.
The man who was shot had been jogging with his dog. The dog was not injured.
The "News and Announcements" section on the home page of the Lebo website has been empty for a few days now. One would think this would be a perfect opportunity to inform residents that there will be activity in our parks beginning December 26th and to check back for more information.
Nick M.
Jack Sr. 11:51 PM Can you please provide a URL link to the crash on the parkway last week? And how did your kids witness that? You said that you were against the cull until that accident, but you start your post out by asking how many Mt. Lebanon residents died when USC culled deer, and claim that there have been no incidents in all other deer culls across the US. With all due respect, you don't sound like someone who just flipped on the deer cull. Your post sounds like one of the many pro-cull Trolls on this blog. Since the facts show that hunting increases car-deer collisions, can I assume that you are against hunting in Mt. Lebanon?
I jog with my dogs in Bird Park in the very early mornings. Will the law allow me to return fire should a "hunter" mistake me for a deer? Furthermore, the police should have their hands full with traffic enforcement among other issues around here. I don't see any of the MTLPD volunteering to help repair the façade of their Public Safety Building. The municipal employee involvement in the deer cull is tantamount to you or I issuing traffic citations after a 2 hour "certification" course. Lastly, I wonder if MTL will post "hunting permitted" signs in or near the designated cull areas. After all, there dozens of bright orange "KEEP OUT" signs surrounding the WC/M field project...
- Curious George
That is good point, Curious George.
You're right we don't see many public employees volunteering to "rectifying" Other problems around Mt. Lebanon.
Besides, if I'm an avid hunter and Lebo resident why can't I volunteer to hunt deer? Why is it open to these select employees.
How did my kids witness the accident? We were on our way to Robinson for some Christmas shopping and a fun dinner with some family that lives in eastern Ohio. My wife used to work for MRTS so she was out of the car before I put the car in park. I got out to help her. The kids quickly got out of their seat belts and jumped into the front seats. They saw everything AND it was worse then any horror movie! The deer ended up pressed against the back window and was alive till the police dealt with it. But I guess there are so many deer related accidents that the news media doesn't see it as news anymore. Want to see my jacket that still has the poor guys blood on it? My wife's clothes are really pretty. We haven't had time to take it to the stuff to the cleaners yet. I used to love this site but it's become a site where if you have a different viewpoint then you are damned. Sort of like some of our colleges.... Free Speech is great as long as you agree with what I do otherwise SHUT-UP. Where is your URLs for all the accidents from deer culls?
John Jr.
NYTimes
A Deer Hunter Kills a Jogger Dressed in Blue
A jogger on a dirt road was shot and killed today by a deer hunter in this town in rural northwestern Connecticut, the state police said.
The state police said the victim, Kevin Elliott, 33 years old, of Terryville, was running on Pitch Road near the Pitch Reservoir when he was killed by a single blast from a shotgun. He was wearing a blue jogging suit, the police said.
They said the hunter, Robert Cook, 42, of Thomaston, apparently mistook the jogger for a deer. Mr. Cook was treated at Charlotte Hungerford Hospital in Torrington after the shooting and was released.
The dirt road Mr. Elliott was running on is just off Route 109 in Morris, a town of about 2,000 residents about 10 miles northwest of Waterbury.
Mr. Cook was in a group of three who were hunting during a special antlerless deer season, said Sgt. Charles McIntyre of the state police. The special season began on Monday and ends on Nov. 21.
After the shooting, about 9:30 A.M., the hunters flagged down an off-duty police trooper who called authorities, Sergeant McIntyre said. Mr. Elliott was pronounced dead at the scene by emergency medical workers.
Sergeant McIntyre said investigators had initially classified the shooting as an accident.
"We're investigating and we will be consulting with the state's attorney to see if any laws have been violated," he said. Mr. Elliott was jogging in an area where hunting is allowed, the police added.
An autopsy will be performed on Thursday, said the State Medical Examiner, Dr. Howard Meridy.
The Pitch Reservoir lies in Morris but is owned and controlled by the city of Waterbury. Mayor Edward Bergin of Waterbury said the city would suspend all hunting on the reservoir property at least for this week.
The jogger's death brought mixed reactions in Morris, whose business district consists of two stores and the volunteer fire hall.
"If you go out in the woods in hunting season you're going to get shot," said Blair Lawson, the town treasurer. "All of northwest Connecticut is a big hunting area."
Eric Nelson, a conservation officer for the state Department of Environmental Protection, said Mr. Cook's hunting permit would be automatically suspended pending a hearing.
The deer that are hit by cars do not suffer for long.
John Jr.: this message is for you:
My son was attending his first "Take your child to work day" with my husband. On the drive home via a local highway, my husband hit a deer.
The deer was still alive and both my husband and son were not injured.
A woman drove up in a pick up truck and got out of the vehicle with a rifle, I believe. (I'll check with spouse on the weapon of choice). She shot and killed the deer in front of my husband and child.
When the police arrived the officer said, "Did you know its illegal to discharge a weapon in Allegheny County", to which my husband said, "I didn't do it!" He then described the pick-up driving weapon toting deer mercenary who came and went.
Do you think my family is pro-cull because of this experience?
We aren't.
I agree with John. Something has to be done about the deer. Our backyard is against the golf course and we'll allow the hunters on our property. I'll bet so will many of our neighbors. Deer control was the hot topic during our last block party. Many of the younger neighbors hunt so seeing a deer hanging in a tree in the back yards isn't anything new. My husband and I grew up with our fathers, grandfathers, uncles hunting deer. If it wasn't for that meat we would have gone hungry.
Jan
EXACTLY why I want the deer controlled 6:08! I want my husband to return home from work everyday safely!!! He works at the Airport and has to travel the Parkway. He fears the drive to work more than when he's in the air flying. Control should be a County issue. Maybe a State one.
Pittsburgh drivers hit deer, people, telephone poles, restaurants -- you name it. This is the most hazardous county in the state for motor vehicle related injuries and crashes --look at the PennDot stats. Let's blame it all on the deer. Bartender?
8:23, I drive the Parkway West as well and the deer don't scare me in the least.
I can almost predict where I'll see them every morning and I drive alert and cautiously.
I don't see how a cull in Lebo is going to quash your husband's fears over deer on the Parkway.
The airport started culling deer a year ago. They were comfortable with 800 acres for their culling zone. Due to significant problems with trophy killings and anger that non airport residents could not participate, they opened up the archery to all residents who applied and were certified through a lottery. #epicarcheryfailurescomingsoon
John Jr. or is it Jack Sr. (Am I confused, or are you confused?) 3:01 PM - Please provide a URL link or some evidence that your story is true. If a young man died last week on the parkway, I'm sure that this accident would have been reported in the newspaper or on TV. I'm not saying that it isn't true. Terrible accidents happen every day. However, I'd just like to differentiate between the fabricated stories posted on this blog by Trolls as scare tactics, and the real ones. With all due respect, there is something about your story and posts that don't feel right. I don't think asking for a reference is asking too much if this is a true story. If you don't want to look it up, post the date that the accident happened, and any other details, and I'll do the research to find corroborating evidence to support your story, and post it to the blog. If as you said, this accident happened last week, this info. shouldn't be difficult to find. Thank You.
8:23 PM - I'm sorry 8:23, but your post sounds ridiculous, and hard to believe. I drive the parkway all the time, and never see any deer. I haven't even seen a dead deer on the side of the road in a couple years. So if your husband is a pilot, and is that paranoid and anxious driving home on the parkway, I don't want to be a passenger on his plane. I think he should seek some psychiatric help.
Absolutely horrifying that our tax dollars are going towards putting shooters in parks while our children play.
Are we sure the deer are posing as a threat, or do the commissioners just want to protect their gardens from being eaten?
A pathetic waste of Lebo's time.
(Part 1)
Don’t Blame the Deer
By MATTHEW SCULLY
( Matthew Scully served as President George W. Bush's chief speechwriter, and is the author of "Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals and the Call to Mercy".)
APRIL 21, 2008 6:01 PM
In the Washington area, we are always hearing about the deer problem faced by suburban communities. The main complaint is the danger they pose to traffic. I wrote a piece on the subject in The Washington Post and received a flurry of letters from people angry at my seeming indifference to human safety, one woman telling me about her friends’ daughter who had died in a deer-related car accident. Among the lesser complaints is that the deer are known to avail themselves of shrubbery adorning people’s finely kept gardens, remorselessly nibbling away at the petunias and azaleas.
It is a serious and complicated situation, and I don’t claim to have all the answers. The first question a reasonable person asks is why are deer suddenly darting into highways, like the one I saw writhing on an icy Route 267 in northern Virginia a few years ago. It’s not as if they are irresistibly drawn to busy roads and terrifying cars and lights. If you were a deer, you would stay as far clear of highways and busy roads as you could, and that’s exactly what deer do when left the alternative. That deer I saw had simply been looking for food, water and other deer, having been frightened off from somewhere else by trucks and dynamite and bulldozers. Or, as in the case of a friend of mine who collided with a deer further out near Leesburg, Virginia, the deer spring into busy unfenced roads in flight from hunters. Indeed, a study in Pennsylvania found that car insurance claims for deer-related accidents increase fivefold during hunting season.
The second question is, who are the chief complainers? The developers and the hunters, ever quick to exploit the safety hazards they themselves have caused. I am all for measured development. I am not writing this from some tiny cabin in a forest. I live on developed property. I live in civilization, and I am glad of it. But when you take and develop land you have to confront the simple fact that it causes the deer to scatter. You, the developer and renter or buyer, are therefore the morally responsible parties, just as you would be if the project left falling-rock hazards near busy roads.
The developers don’t want to pay for fences, road-light systems alerting the deer to approaching cars, or vaccines to prevent fertilization (administered by treated feed or darts), all of which would serve the purpose quite well, and indeed are working already in places where they have been tried such as Gaithersburg, Maryland. Their line is “fences don’t work,” as if northern Virginia’s bionic deer can scale any height — a claim easily enough refuted by noting how fences somehow seem to work when the aim is to make money by keeping the deer captive. Fences at hunting ranches seem to be doing the trick.
Local political authorities don’t want to foot the bill for fences, road reflector systems, and a more rigorous enforcement of speed limits, nor to antagonize the developers who contribute generously to their campaigns. It seems cheaper to all parties concerned to just kill the deer. And why not make it fun, too, for the sportsmen, who inevitably have begun promoting “the suburban deer bowhunt.” As it turns out even these managed hunts are problematic. The more deer they kill, the more space and food is left to the other deer, yielding over time more deer than before. The females reproduce in greater numbers, a phenomenon known as compensatory reproduction and observed in human populations, too, during wartime. To solve the problem with hunting alone, they’d have to wipe the creatures out by the thousands. Here, as reported by The Post, is how this question of dominion is being resolved:
(Part 2)
Don’t Blame the Deer
By MATTHEW SCULLY
“The first of eight managed hunts — designed to help winnow a deer population estimated at 25,000 — got Fairfax County’s animal-control effort off to a slow start yesterday. … ‘It was a very nice day in the woods,’ said Don Gantz, 53, of Fairfax, who bagged two deer — the only ones he saw. Gantz … said he was about to give up at noon when two does cautiously came up to him, heads down. He shot both — a 108-pound pregnant doe and a 67-pound doe.”
So there is our menace. Two does with their heads bowed. Approaching cautiously. “A very nice day in the woods.” Twenty-five thousand of these marauders supposedly inhabit the county, yet when the day was done 150 hunters (selected by lottery) could find only ten of them. A few weeks later Fairfax County hired sharpshooters for the job, sending them in at night to avoid public notice. This time they could find just 107 deer in six days’ worth of slaughter.
Wouldn’t it be a lot easier, at least on one’s conscience, to put up the roadside fences and lighting systems? We’re talking about developments usually making the owners millions of dollars in sales or rental profits. Northern Virginia is the picture of modern prosperity, and few are prospering more than real estate developers and their clients. They can’t spare a little of that wealth to protect the deer whose forest homes they have appropriated, make a little room in all their big designs and master plans for creatures who, before the development, weren’t causing harm to anyone?
As for the homeowners, are azaleas really worth that scene described above? Are there really people so touchy about their gardens and flowers that, seeing a doe with her fawns feasting in the backyard, they feel compelled to call in the sharpshooters? And where will they be when the job is done? Indeed all these “managed hunts” are now done in secret? What does that tell you?
The solution is always the gun, or poison, or traps, and the divine mandate always money. Geese getting on your nerves? Wipe ‘em out. Want a stuffed bear for the living room? Go forth then to bait and slay the beast — and don’t forget the keg. Wildlife hindering new development? Bring dominion to field and forest, exterminate the creatures, and raise up thy new strip mall.
Even when the complaints are legitimate, as with lethal driving hazards to people, there is an utter refusal to accept human culpability, as if the deer were to blame and not the developers. It is as if the whole natural world existed for no other reason than to please the appetites of man, however ignoble, irrational and reckless. Anything that is there is there to be taken. If it’s in the way, level it. If it dares distract or inconvenience, run it off. It it adds to costs, kill it.
It is a vision that looks upon our fellow creatures to find only an infinite array of pests, threats, resources, obstacles, targets, livestock, roadkill, racks, and “wall-hangers.” Nowhere in this vision is there any room for animals with their own purpose in the world apart from the designs of man. Never is a deer just a deer, the thirsty hart needing a place of its own, an unoffending creature in need of a break.
Matthew Scully is the author of “Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy.”
10:59 PM, the gardeners from Virginia Manor, led by Barbara Logan, were strategizing after Tuesday's meeting on how they intend to spend taxpayers' money for the slaughter in Phase 2 of the deer killing. Phase 1 is the freebie, excluding donation fees.
Elaine
" ‘It was a very nice day in the woods,’ said Don Gantz, 53, of Fairfax, who bagged two deer — the only ones he saw. Gantz … said he was about to give up at noon when two does cautiously came up to him, heads down. He shot both — a 108-pound pregnant doe and a 67-pound doe. So there is our menace. Two does with their heads bowed. Approaching cautiously." Don't Blame the Deer, Matthew Scully.
This is being called hunting, and the term "hunter" is being used, but this has nothing to do with "ethical" hunting. There is no challenge or hunt in the shooting of semi-tame deer in Mt. Lebanon's parks and back yards. Like the pregnant doe and her fawn in Scully's article, these tame deer will walk right up to the hunter to be killed. What honor can a man take in the killing of a tame pregnant doe and her fawn. It's like shooting fish in a barrel, or your neighbors dog. I couldn't do it, and live with my conscience.
Below are some press quotes from ex-Commissioner Barbara Logan, who started the push for a deer killing program back in 2005/2006, and who apparently ("the gardeners from Virginia Manor [with pitchforks and torches], led by Barbara Logan, were strategizing after Tuesday's meeting on how they intend to spend taxpayers' money for the slaughter in Phase 2 of the deer killing.") is still pulling the strings.
"My shouting and screaming at them does nothing," she said.
"My concern is that if, or when, this plan happens, many of us will be disappointed because our deer are not in an area where we can cull them," said Commissioner Barbara Logan.
"I'm afraid that once we start culling them, they'll lay low until it is over,"added Logan
Ms. Logan said she understood that some people are upset at the thought of killing deer, but whether they die from old age, disease, hunger or hunting, "One way or another, the deer are going to die."
"One way or another, the deer are going to die."
Really? This is an argument for culling them?
We are eventually all are going to die, one way or another so do we start culling every living thing we consider a nuisance?
7:02 AM, and so what does that say about the power brokers (the shadow commission) who manipulate and pull the strings behind the scenes, and who huddle two weeks before Christmas to strategize the slaughter of the tame pregnant doe and her fawn, and who have as much blood on their hands and "conscience" as the men doing the killing to protect their tulips?
Loud, moving protesters scattered in the "hunting" areas will certainly frustrate anyone with a gun in a tree stand. This will discourage deer from these areas and infuriate those hoping for a trophy on their mantle.
First of all, there are no guns. It is bow and arrow.
Second, are you volunteering? Are you crazy?
Elaine
Bow and arrow, gun, what's the difference? Yes, I'm volunteering, but unlike the "hunters", I have a job that requires me to do work during normal business hours, unlike some people... I don't understand why the "hunters" don't simply stand guard around the garden tour homes and execute the deer on site? This would appease those who can't stand a missing petunia in their yards as well as the other 99.9% who aren't bothered at all by the deer. Any volunteers? How about you, Buzzcut Linfante?
I agree with 11:17 that killings that residents don't support should only occur on private property. These JERKS should move back to their birthplaces and ruin those places. NOT WANTED in Pgh.
Sorry 11:57, but what if the pro-cull people were born and raised here?
Dp you expect them to leave and then come back?
How about we pledge to get involved, then work to elect people that don't do stupid stuff?
Hey 11:17-"high and tight"!
2:17 it would be interesting to see if the pro cull people are natives given that the white tail deer is our state animal, had a special pen at Fort Pitt and the most popular regional ymca camp is called deer valley. I would also think that most natives know people who hit a deer in a car and were ok---in a residential area. MTL is mostly residential, right?
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