On Tuesday, the Mt. Lebanon Commission will be deciding which cruel method will be used to kill deer in Mt. Lebanon. PETA has a call to action on their website. Urge Mt. Lebanon Officials to Ditch Cruelty to Deer! I am sure that the commissioners will discount all emails from residents outside of Mt. Lebanon. Of course, when it came to toxicologists concerning the artificial turf, residents from Mt. Lebanon were biased and they only wanted to hear from those outside of Mt. Lebanon. Double standards prevail with the Mt. Lebanon Commission.
Commissioner Fraasch has updated her blog with Final Deer Posting before December 9th Kelly has been an advocate for nonlethal methods, such as deer sterilization, of deer management. Please read her blog posting for more background and her thoughts on this topic.
Avid bow hunters are asking why the archery will be limited to municipal employees when the law states: "No privileges shall be granted by those owning or operating the posted lands or waters to any other person to hunt for any game or wildlife upon the property; nor shall the person or persons owning or in charge of the lands be eligible to hunt for any game or wildlife on the lands or waters."
Even Fake Lebo is mocking the municipality. From Facebook:
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| Courtesy Fake Lebo |
74 comments:
Thank you, Elaine, for keeping us informed. I hope that everyone here will share this PETA post on social media. Mt. Lebanon sure has gotten a lot of attention lately. Very negative attention.
This quote seriously rubbed me the wrong way when I first read it but I am glad I am not alone:
"The most bizarre quote of the week comes from Mt. Lebanon Commissioner Dave Brumfield... Mr. Brumfield described a trapping system in which deer are baited into a temporary corral then killed with a captive bolt gun, a device used in bovine slaughter. “It's a mob hit, not a sniper,” Brumfield said. And Brumfield knows what about “mob hits,” again?"
http://triblive.com/opinion/colinmcnickle/7125815-74/gruber-brumfield-pileggi#axzz3L4tdRwlS
I watched a television show a few years back regarding the use of a captive bolt. If memory serves me correctly it was one of those undercover shows exposing the inhumane treatment of cattle prior to slaughter. One of the most disturbing parts was that even though the animal instantly fell to the ground, in most cases the animal was still alive making jerking motions.
Nick M.
TRAP and BOLT ANIMAL CRUELTY
Clover Trap and Bolt
See link below to view a short video that gives an example of the intense stress, panic, and struggle that deer experience in a clover trap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XezJJNzg3nY
After the deer are trapped in a clover trap a hired contractor collapses the trap on the deer and attempts to steady the deer while another contractor fires the bolt gun -- a 4 inch retractable steel rod -- into her skull. Since the deer are inadequately restrained and are strong and heavy, they frequently manage to move. The bolt-gun is then misfired into their eye, jaw, ear or nose. The contractor must reload the bolt gun before trying again. Death from the bolt-gun is often not immediate, adding more prolonged suffering to already terrified animals.
Net and Bolt
See net and bolt video below. An explosive charge propels nets over a group of deer, tossing them in the air and ensnaring them. They thrash around, crying out in fear and panic as they are shot in the head with metal bolts.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=neOr8F8c6as
EXPERT TESTIMONIALS
Jack Schrier, the NJ Fish & Game Council
The U.S. Veterinarians' Association has stated publicly that net-and-bolt is not appropriate for use in the field. If this loathsome slaughterhouse killing method is employed in any town, it will debase that town and its good people.
Allen T. Rutberg, Ph. D., School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts University
My personal opinion ... is that netting & bolting free range deer is at best difficult to carry out humanely and at worst is brutally cruel. Because the practice localizes responsibility for killing with specific property owners, it also stirs up personal animosity among members of the community. Again in my opinion, the potential for animal suffering and the elevated animosity generated by the practice outweighs any benefits that might be achieved by deer population reduction.
Peggy W. Larson, DVM, MS, JD
[Trap and Bolt] This is a very inhumane way to rid yourselves of excess deer because of the extreme fright experienced by the deer and because the captured bolt does not effect a clean kill when the animal’s head is not immobilized. ... If a wounded deer escapes the netting, a resident of the town could be injured and the town held liable. Anyone watching this violent procedure or even knowing about it certainly would find it unpleasant and some may find it emotionally traumatic, especially children. Bait, net and attempt to kill is not a humane solution.
John W. Grandy, Ph.D. Senior Vice President of The Humane Society of the United States
The Humans Society of the United States (HSUS) is committed to preventing needless pain and suffering to all animals. It is cruel to attempt to euthanize a wild animal with a captive bolt gun because the animal will suffer needlessly and terribly. There is nothing remotely humane in this process.
Laura Simon, Wildlife Biologist, The Humane Society of the United States
I am writing to object strongly to your town’s plan to use trapping and the captive bolt as a management tool for white-tailed deer. The HSUS is committed to preventing suffering in all animals. We firmly believe that it is impossible to ensure that this technology is used correctly and consistently enough in the field to provide a humane death to deer. Captive bolt guns are designed for use on restrained domestic animals in highly structured and controlled environments. Even there, the "humaneness" of these devices has been called into question. These guns were not designed for use on wild animals under any circumstances, and certainly not as a management tool for white-tailed deer.
December 5, 2014 at 8:48 PM
Yes, it is disturbing to hear Commissioner Brumfield make such a flippant comment, which appears to be an attempt at humor about such hideous animal cruelty.
It's disturbing to watch these commissioners sit around a table discussing different ways to kill deer with exchanges of light hearted banter. They should be required to watch the killing of a doe with her fawns, hear their screems, and watch them suffer - get some blood on their hands. All for some tulips. Killing deer won't even effectively address the deer-human conflicts, and there are safe, humane, and effective methods that would.
It's disturbing to watch these cold hearted women with their torches and pitchforks call for the slaughter of deer families, so they can plant their tulips and hostas. I always thought that most women were more compassionate and had some internal motherly instincts. How can these women see a beautiful doe with her playful fawn, and can only think of blowing their brains out and planting some tulips. I would feel sorry for them if they weren't so murderous and intent on inflicting suffering and death on others, and exposing all of Mt. Lebanon families to danger from shooters and hunters, for tulips. Still, it's hard to imagine the poverty of their inner lives. Incomprehensible
How will you like it when your neighbor invites bow hunters into their back yard, and you have a man with a lethal weapon hunting right next to your yard, where your kids play, and where you let your dog out to pee? What are you going to do when the hunter wounds a deer, and the arrow struck deer lies down in your back yard looking for help, or collapses in your yard in a pool of blood and is thrashing in distress? Most of these deer are semi-tame, and many families know the individual deer, and their children have named them. What kind of emotional trauma do you think this will cause the children?
How will you like it when your neighbor invites contractors to trap-and-bolt deer in their back yard, and you and your children are exposed to this brutal act of animal cruelty, and hear the screams of fear and pain from the deer? And then watch them drag the body out to a truck.
These commissioners are turning Mt. Lebanon into a dangerous killing field and inhumane slaughterhouse, and it's all about deer eating flowers. If residents don't get outraged and involved, this will be the nightmarish prison that they are forced to live in. The only escape will be to sell your home, and move elsewhere.
Will Mt. Lebanon have to remove its logo, a "Community with Character" from its website, after being accused of animal cruelty by The Humane Society of the United States and People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals?
That is exactly what happened here, 2:04 AM. In the cold weather, we had kids sled riding over the rotten apples used for bait. In the warmer weather, the contractor who cut the grass in the park would run right over the apples with his mower. It was six months of Hell (November-April) and Wildlife Services never reached their goal.
Elaine
Baldwin - Castle Shannon - Brookline Residents
You will endure the Commission's decision.
Contact Kelly Fraasch if you need more information about the deer sterilization. I thought it was a crazy idea until I discussed it with her months ago. The method makes a lot of sense, is humane, more effective for deer management and we need to push this idea more as residents. Brumfield has said he supports it. Let's put his feet to the fire.
9:00 am if anyone has contacts in those areas, please let them know about the letter campaign. I was walking on a local trail when a hunter and his son dragged a deer they killed out from the woods, dripping blood along the trail. I had my kids with me. This is something to avoid.
Website details Maryland's first deer sterilization program. Very successful.
http://www.wildliferescueinc.org/
9:00 am. According to most of the Commissioners, you and your concern exposing your child to this "blood sport" and trauma is just a problem of you being too "emotional". This is the same problem the young girl with PTSD has, who was robbed at gun point, that pleaded with the Commissioners not to allow men with lethal weapons in Mt. Lebanon. They accused Kelly Fraasch's oppositiion to a bait and shoot cull as an "emotional" decision - no safety issues shooting high powered rifles in parks and residents back yards. You should be more like the hunter with his kid dragging the bloody deer on the trail you are sharing. Teaching your child to kill is teaching family values, and gives job security to the Pa Game Commission employees to. A little blood on your shoes won't kill you. So you and you child will just have to man-up if you want to live in Mt. Lebanon. BTW, not to mention the safety threat of sharing a park and trail with men using lethal weapons. It's your responsibility to be more careful. Animal cruelty laws are only intended to protect dogs and cats. All other animal cruelty is just fine. The Humane Society of the United States is just a handful (12 million members) of silly "emotional" Americans. So just man-up.
This morning, I called the PA Game Commission SW Region Office at 724-238-9523, pressing 1 for Game Law Violation and provided them with the GPS coordinate/nearest cross street of the sighting of a deer that had been shot and bled out so they can remove the animal or investigate. This occurred in Collier Township. Make a note of the number if this urban cull goes forward.
Hate to break it to you but MANY want the cull. People are talking about it which is a switch for Mt Lebanon. This is why we asked that it be placed on the ballot along with the Turf project. Let people vote and have a say on these projects. Right now we have 4 commissioners with "God" syndrome. Both sides are unhappy. And with these 4 I don't see things getting any better. Brumfield switches every month or so. I was with a neighbor that knows him about a year ago and he was telling her that he would NEVER allow trapping and now he is in favor of it. Wonder if this has anything to do with the Princess President and getting her vote for the turf project.
The problem with having a referendum for a cull, is that the Mt. Lebanon elite's that control the municipality, the Commissioners, the local political parties, the candidate selection process, the Mt. Lebanon Magazine, the frickin sacred Garden Tour, etc. - the Bubble - in short, control the press and media, and the message being sent out to the Mt. Lebanon residents. I think they would also control the wording of the referendum, which is critically important.
For example, the recent "Deer Forum", positioned as a resident education forum to provide "credible" information so that residents can make up their own minds, was in reality an attempt to present a biased view with misinformation to try to get resident buy-in for their upcoming deer killing program. The panel was like 6 biased pro-cull panelists, vs. Laura Simon, the wildlife biologist from the Humane Society of the United States. It wasn't a fair and balanced panel, and had specially prepared questions that presented a biased point of view. No residents were allowed to participate or submit questions. You had Todd Kravits from PennDot present totally inaccurate car-deer collision statistics to the public. He said that 2/3rd (67%) of all car-deer collisions in Allegheny County happen right here in Mt. Lebanon - the truth is less than 1%. Despite this misinformation, the video is still on the website.
You have a Commissioner that continues using inaccurate scare tactics, like Lyme disease, when the leading Lyme disease experts emphatically state that there is no correlation between Lyme disease and deer, and that there is no correlation between killing deer and the tick population.
The pro-cull administration hides information from the public, i.e. The Humane Society Of The United States (HSUS) letters to the Commission dated November 8, 2011, opposing a deer hunting and culling program, and November 6, 2012 opposing the clover trap-and-kill program, are not posted on the Deer Management Information document page for residents to view. Also, the most recent aerial survey from February 2014, which shows a significant reduction in the deer population compared to the 2013 survey isn't posted. These are serious issues of transparency. Mt. Lebanon residents have a right to see and review this information.
The "expert" that the municipality pays for an objective assessment is a pro-cull biased firm that only provides lethal deer mgt services, and the Pa Game Commission "experts" run a deer killing business for its hunter constituents.
I can just imagine the misinformation and scare tactics about deer that the Mt. Lebanon Magazine would publish, and the biased Deer Forum that would be broadcast, right before the referendum vote.
When Mt. Lebanon held a well publicized special Town Hall Meeting on Deer Management on July 9, 2012, out of 33,137 residents only 13 residents attended to complain about deer. Most complaints were about deer eating their flowers, and many who spoke supported deer contraception.
I have no doubt that if the Mt. Lebanon public was presented with the truth and the facts, that they would overwhelmingly vote against using out of town contractors running around shooting high-powered rifles in their parks and yards. That they would vote against turning Mt. Lebanon into a private bow-hunting club, i.e. sharing their parks with bow-hunters, and having camouflaged dressed hunters prowling around their neighborhoods and yards. And that they would vote against the brutally cruel and inhumane trap-and-bolt deer killing method.
That said, "Whoever controls the media, controls the mind”. When you have one side that has exclusive control over the press and media, and the ability to present so much misinformation, you can't have a fair referendum. That's exactly what happened in Upper St. Clair. IMO, it's more effective to target the pro-cull Commissioners and remove them from office.
Reg. Referendum on culling. I'd also like to add that when it comes to the serious safety threat that shooters and hunters pose to residents families, children, and pets, and the rights that these residents should have to protect their families, and feel safe and secure in their homes, I don't think a referendum or a Commission vote should supersede the rights of even one resident in Mt. Lebanon.
While I'm totally against artificial turf, at least as a parent you can decide not to allow your child to play on these fields, which I wouldn't, and be exposed to these cancer causing toxins. However, with culling you can't avoid the serious threat to your family. I don't think a referendum or a Commission vote has a right to pose this kind of lethal threat to your family in your home and yard.
I think it's totally insane that residents can sign up and allow shooters, bow hunters, and trappers to use their yard, with no safety zones or inadequate safety zones, right next to your home and yard, and even w/o notifying you, and you have no rights to stop it. It's just not safe or right.
If this is what Mt. Lebanon is going to do again, it's going to cause serious animosity between neighbors and throughout the community.
3:26 AM, animosity and terror. I will never forget what I experienced.
Elaine
You can tell the municipality that under no terms are they allowed to trespass on your property, deer cull or not. See "How to keep someone off your property" in link below.
That won't prevent them from shooting near you, but it will limit their ability to shoot deer in neighborhoods, effectively stopping the rationale for a cull.
We do, under the state constitution, still have rights!
http://www.palawhelp.org/files/A50D42DC-FCAA-1883-E79C-9619DF2007FA/attachments/0A12CB75-9B0C-5E02-C0F3-DBC3648E0637/124111Brochure%2014_How%20to%20Keep%20Someone%20off%20Your%20Property_Brochure.pdf
Now then, considering the above and the state regulations cincerning safe zones for shooting, would an archer's errant shot into your yard from a neighbor's that allowed the hunters make your neighbor complicent in defient trespass or liable for problems due to an accident?
Lawyers, opinions please?
Right now we have a group of morons that decide policies that THEY want not what the rest of the community wants. We are paying for Brumfield's utopia. If you watch closely the rest of the commissioners look at him before voting. Almost like they need his approval. If things were on some sort of ballot then people would atleast feel as if they had a voice. I've given up all communication with our commissioner as it is a waste of time and I'm not going to be belittled anymore. I recently switched political parties and was asked why... I wrote that Mt Lebanon democrat commissioners was all the proof that I needed. Smith and Miller helped too.
I was recently diagnosed with Lyme disease and getting treatment for it at UPMC clinic. I was told that because I live in a high deer location it was quite common. That's why my family doctor tested for it. I was also told to take my dogs to the vet for testing, treatment and vaccine for Lyme disease too. They also gave me a paper telling what the deer tick looks like compared to the other ticks. Did you know that there is a groundhog tick? But for me the deer are a very expensive problem. My deductible is $7500. Each time I have to go to UPMC I have a $45 co-pay. And the meds have been about $145 a month. So far I've been lucky and haven't missed any days at work. So it's more than just deer eating everything in people's yards. I sure wouldn't wish this on any kid.
I'm sorry to hear that you contracted Lyme disease, 1:22 PM. Did you let Kristen Linfante know what your family doctor told you? She usually pooh-poohs doctors' opinions. Well, at least when it comes to toxic turf.
I don't have the time to research this, but I have posted documentation here concerning the myth about deer and Lyme disease. If all the deer are killed, it will not solve your problem.
The deadline for applying for affordable healthcare is December 15. You might want to look at a plan with a lower deductible. It might be higher than what you are paying now. However, when our taxes go up for deer management, you might want to "bite the bullet" and stay with your current healthcare plan.
I wouldn't wish being fearful in one's home or witnessing deer being killed on any kid.
Elaine
Actually, 1:22 PM, it might be helpful if you scanned the paper identifying ticks and email it to me. I can post it on Lebo Citizens. EGillen476@aol.com
Thanks.
Elaine
Glad you brought up your high deductible healthcare plan 1:22.
You might, while it's fresh on your mind, investigate the healthcare packages of our municipal employees, teachers and state office holders.
A certain governor elect is proposing pouring more money into education, and more government which will result in even more out-of-pocket expenses for you.
Even the documents that Mt. Lebanon posts on its own website contradict Kristen's foolish belief that humans can contact Lyme disease from deer.
Just a few lines from: http://tinyurl.com/nplheek
"Adult female black-legged ticks feed preferentially on deer to get energy to lay eggs, but deer do not act as reservoirs for the Lyme bacteria."
This is from the game commission who in the eyes of Kristen, are experts. So how can she continue to say otherwise?
Nick M.
1:22 pm. Which insurer has the option for a $45 copay and a $7500 deductible? I haven't seen that anywhere and I follow the health insurance offerings locally. You must have expected a good health year with a $7500 deductible.
Again, ask our municipal employees and teachers how much they contribute to the cpsyt of their health plans, their co-pay and deductibles while they wait to retire on 70-80% of their highest salary!
PLEASE, let's stay on topic.
Elaine
December 7, 2014 at 1:22 PM - Recently diagnosed with Lyme disease.
1:22 pm, I'm reposting info. from the leading Lyme disease researchers and experts following this post, for your review.
Most doctors, clinics, and vets, have little understanding about the ecology of Lyme disease. I've seen local doctors being interviewed on TV that are totally misinformed, and my vet doesn't have a clue. There has been so much misinformation propagated about Lyme disease over the years, that even the doctors belief the myths.
There is no, "deer tick", it's the blacklegged tick. As I understand, the name "deer tick" came from the "deer mouse", which is related to the white footed mouse, which is the primary host carrying 50% of the ticks, but account for 90% of infected ticks. Some where along the line people got confused and associated "deer tick" with deer.
In addition, diagnosing Lyme disease is still not an exact science, and it's probably one of the most misdiagnosed and treated infections going. Lyme disease is primarily a clinical diagnosis based on symptoms and risk factors. Western Pa and Mt. Lebanon are not a high-risk areas. The blood tests are not very accurate, and are fraught with false-positive and negative results.
That said, antibiotics are very effective in treating Lyme infection. If you do have Lyme disease, I'm not sure how many times you would have to go to the clinic to be treated. They would likely just give you a prescription of antibiotics, and that would be it.
In addition, if you do have Lyme disease, you really can't be sure that you got it in your back yard.
If it was me, and if my dogs weren't showing any signs of illness, I probably wouldn't get them tested or treated. There are always risks with giving vaccine shots and treatments.
If you do have Lyme disease, the prime suspect would be the white footed mouse or one of the other 3 small mammals that carry 90% of the infected ticks, or 27 species of mammal and 70 species of birds.
Killing deer will have no effect on the tick population or a reduction in Lyme disease.
BTW, just curious, did you find a tick on your body, and take it to the clinic to be tested. Did you have the bullseye rash, or did you just have symptoms, which overlap so many conditions.
Regardless, I hope you're feeling better, and that your dogs are fine. I hope that after reading this info. that you will not blame the deer for this problem. I would recommend taking this info. in to your doctor.
Deer and Lyme Disease - THE FACTS
The blacklegged tick that transmits Lyme disease feeds on approximately 27 species of mammal and 70 species of birds. The bacteria is passed through the bite of a tick. But deer do not get Lyme disease nor do they pass it along. Rodents, on the other hand, particularly the white-footed mouse, do contract the disease and pass it along to other ticks that feed on them. Rodents are called “reservoir hosts” for this reason. Deer are not reservoir hosts, they are called “dilution hosts” because, even though a tick can feed on a deer, as one of the many mammals offering blood meals to ticks, the disease is not spread through the deer-tick relationship.
A landmark book published by Oxford University Press called, “Lyme Disease, The Ecology of a Complex System” by Dr. Richard Ostfeld, analyzed and synthesized just about every study to date on this topic. Well over 100 studies are examined in the book, and the conclusion is crystal clear and accessible to the general public: There is little to no correlation between deer and Lyme disease. According to the book, only about 30 percent of ticks are infected with Lyme disease. Four small mammals (including white-footed mice) host 50% of the ticks, but account for 90% of infected ticks. That means that all the other possible hosts account for only 10% of infected ticks. There are, in fact, no credible (peer reviewed) studies that correlate a reduction in deer numbers with a reduction in Lyme disease.
"I am a research scientist who has devoted much of the past twenty years to understanding the ecology of Lyme disease, and other tick-borne infections. A comprhensive review of all the scientific literature on the relationship between numbers of deer and numbers of ticks reveals that the majority of studies find no statistical correlation at all. The lack of a correlation derives from the following facts: (1) deer do not infect ticks with Lyme bacteria, and actually reduce the infection prevalence in tick populations; (2) adult black legged ticks feed on at least 27 different species of mammals and are not specialists on white-tailed deer; (3) when deer populations are culled, ticks crowd onto the remaining deer, resulting in similar total numbers of tick meals; and (4) even when deer affect the number of eggs laid by adult ticks and resulting abundance of larvae, numbers of larvae do not predict numbers of nymphs (nymphs are responsible for transmitting Lyme disease to people). Moreover, although mention is made of deer thresholds in the non-peer-reviewed literature, no scientific data support the existence of a deer density threshold below which ticks decline to low numbers. Scientific literature on which my statements are based can be found in the book cited above." (Dr. Richard Ostfeld, Senior Scientist, The Cary Institute)
In addition, recent work by Dr. Tamara Awerbuch of the Harvard School of Public Health, confirms that deer are not the culprit for Lyme disease but in fact it is the white-footed mouse ("Killing Deer Not the Answer to Reducing Lyme Disease", Says HSPH Scientist" interview dated 11/23/10). Dr. Awerbuch states that, "There is NO linear correlation between killing deer and the tick population."
The American Lyme Disease Foundation does not advocate for deer killing programs to control the spread of Lyme disease.
This research emphatically refutes the notion that killing deer will reduce the tick population or lyme disease rates. In the face of this undisputable facts it becomes unsupportable to kill deer for Lyme disease reasons.
Nick M.,December 7, 2014 at 2:52 PM posted:
"Even the documents that Mt. Lebanon posts on its own website contradict Kristen's foolish belief that humans can contact Lyme disease from deer. ... This is from the game commission who in the eyes of Kristen, are experts. So how can she continue to say otherwise?"
EXACTLY
I am sincerely sorry to anyone who suffers from Lyme's Disease but it is preventable.
As a hiker, I've noticed that most well groomed trails post the CDC's recommendations for preventing tic-borne illness. Of course, I've never seen these postings in MtL, so do check out the CDC website.
If you spent a lot of time outdoors hiking or in other areas where you are likely to come into contact with tics, be sure to check yourself afterwards. If you find a tic and are concerned, just call your doc and s/he will prescribe a prophylactic antibiotic. Crisis-averted!
But then 10:44, the hysterical rationale that deer are causing death and destruction on our roads and black death in our homes wouldn't justify the cull.
The only thing left would be the selfish argument that we must spend thousands to protect a few people's landscapping.
My husband plays golf in warmer months with a group once a week. One of the members was DX'ed with Lyme's Disease. His doctor believes he was infected on a golf course. There are usually NO deer on a golf course near the players!
1:22 PM: My thoughts and prayers are with you!
Elaine, there are a few things that seem kind of peculiar with the 1:22 PM, "I was recently diagnosed with Lyme disease" post. I saw another poster raised issues with the description of the insurance policy the poster described, which got me taking a second look, and now I'm wondering if this is a true post. I know that you've had trolls on this blog and topic in the past, who try to use misinformation and scare tactics to get community buy-in for the deer killing program. I'm not saying that this post isn't true, but after taking a second look it raised a few questions and red flags.
1) A doctor at a UPMC clinic wouldn't know if Dormont, Mt. Lebanon, or wherever, is considered a "high deer location community."
BTW, Jeannine Fleegle, the Pa Game Commission wildlife biologist, said there is no optimum deer per sq. mile number in suburban communities, i.e., the biological carrying capacity in suburban communities depends on the area, food resources, and wooded areas available etc. In addition, the number of deer in an area has no direct relationship to the tick population or the rate of Lyme disease.
2) Lyme disease in not "quite common" in Western Pa or Mt. Lebanon. Actually, I haven't heard of another case of Lyme disease that has been directly linked to Mt. Lebanon. I haven't heard one person claim to have contracted Lyme disease in Mt. Lebanon, that has made a public comment at the Commission meeting in the last 10 years. I'm not saying that there hasn't been, but I'm not aware of any. Nearly all cases of Lyme disease (96%) in the United States happen in the northeast, i.e. Connecticut etc.
3) The poster (let's assume a woman for convenience) doesn't say if her "dogs" tested positive or not. No doubt, the vet bill for diagnosis, treatment, and vaccine, for multiple dogs would have likely been much more expensive than the UPMC clinic bill, and since she had provided detailed expense costs, I'm thinking she would have provided the vet bill costs too.
4) She said that meds have been about $145 a month. BTW, $145 is an odd estimate. Most people giving an estimate would round up. The standard treatment for early diagnosed Lyme disease is 100 milligrams of Doxycycline, twice a day, for 14 days. Her post makes it sound like she has been taking meds for months.
5) She said that it cost her a $45 co-payment for every visit to the clinic. If she had Lyme disease infection, she likely would have be given a prescription for 14 days of Doxycycline and sent home. A follow-up appt. likely wouldn't have been needed unless the antibiotics didn't work, and she still had symptoms. Since she said that she "haven't missed any days at work", so it sounds like her symptoms must have been fairly mild, and not sure why she would have had to go back to the clinic.
6) If she has a $7,500 deductible, then why would she have to pay a $45 co-payment unless she has already met her deductible, or maybe I'm just confused
7) If she had Lyme disease, and her symptoms were so mild that she didn't miss any work, I don't understand her statement, "I sure wouldn't wish this on any kid."
Like I said, these were just some questions that came to mind when reviewing her post a second time. Again, I'm not saying that her post isn't true, but when reviewed more closely, these are just some questions and red flags that were raised.
Just to add to my pervious post, if this "Lyme disease" post is a disingenuous post, I find it disturbing that the pro-cull people or Commissioners feel that they have to lie, and intentionally give misinformation to scare people to justify their deer killing program. How can people be so passionate and deceitful in their effort to kill and cause suffering for sentient animals and put all residents in danger with lethal weapons, for some stupid tulips and the garden tour. Mt. Lebanon can't be turned into a glass enclosed greenhouse or ecoSphere for a handful of gardener hobbyists that want to be featured on the garden tour. They would have to kill all the deer in the region, and then erect a bubble over Mt. Lebanon. If they don't kill all the deer, the remaining deer and the migrating deer to fill the void, will still eat their tulips. Gardeners can still have beautiful gardens by being creative and planting deer resistant flowers, using repellents, and deterrents.
Another add on to my 5:57 AM post.
The Lyme disease poster also forgot to include the cost of the blood tests that a clinic would run to exclude other causes of her symptoms, and to try to support the doctors clinical (symptoms based) diagnosis. Just another point that raises another red flag.
6:14 AM, I wouldn't put too much weight into the Lyme disease poster's comment. Just an FYI, I haven't heard back from that person with any information about the paper identifying the different types of ticks.
You should see the crazy comments I get from some of the pro-kill people. I chalk it up to Gozer or one of Gozer's trusted minions.
Elaine
Infant blinded by hunter’s bullet returns home
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/5/infant-blinded-by-hunters-bullet-returns-home/
By - Associated Press - Friday, December 5, 2014
CLUNE, Pa. (AP) - An infant blinded by a hunter’s stray bullet that came through his living room window has returned to his Pennsylvania home after more than two months in the hospital.
Shayne Iverson’s homecoming near Saltsburg on Wednesday was just in time for his mother’s 31st birthday, the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review (http://bit.ly/12HaVEG) reported.
“It was a pretty emotional night,” Shayne’s father, Jeremie Iverson, told the newspaper.
The 42-year-old Iverson was cuddling the boy, just 6 days old at time, on their couch on Sept. 25. Shayne was in Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh ever since.
“I know he’s a little baby, but to me, I think he knows he’s home,” Iverson said.
Doctors have said the boy likely survived because the bullet that hit his head exited through his eye socket rather than hitting his brain.
Indiana County District Attorney Pat Dougherty has said the hunter had an agricultural deer control permit.
No charges have been filed, though investigators were reviewing whether game regulations or other laws were violated.
Although he’s home, Shayne still faces more surgeries.
“We’re taking it one day at a time,” Jeremie Iverson said.
Elaine, I had to look up Gozer and the minions of Gozer. You nailed it! So funny! LOL
Nick M. 2:52 PM
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." Joseph Goebbels
9:00, and what does that say about the person who feels the needs to tell a big enough lie in the first place?
Those are ones you need to keep a watchful eye on.
Nick M.
I just don’t get those parents – the baby’s life was spared when the bullet exited the skull? Gee, isn’t that’s nice – the hunter was so damned considerate, WOW!!
These people are either just plain brain-dead, STUPID, don’t want to blame hunting or the hunter, or don’t give a damn about the consequences of this poor kid growing up blind!
Setting up a Go Fund Me is their answer, strangers should be responsible for what happened? I’d be going after the hunter, the hunting industry, changing laws, and suing the hell out of the state, too!
@12:50 PM Good luck changing a gun law. In fact, if you (or Mt. Lebanon or Allegheny County) try, then under a proposed PA law, you or your local government could be sued by the NRA (http://www.post-gazette.com/news/state/2014/10/16/Pennsylvania-Senate-approves-bill-to-allow-gun-groups-standing-to-sue-over-local-laws/stories/201410160273). Welcome to Pennsyltucky, where guns are sacred.
134:
Local government could be sued by anyone for trying to supercede state and federal law. And youre damn right guns are sacred.
If you want to turn deer culling into an anti-gun campaign, do so at the risk of losing support for your "side". But last I checked, the discussion revolves around two things: 1--the lack of any evidence a deer cull is necessary and 2--what method to employ when our Politburo pushes through another halfassed scheme.
If you would like to debate the merits of gun ownership and that obscure thing I sometimes refer to as "the Constitution", ask Elaine to set up another thread.
1:22 deer are not a true reservoir for Lyme. black legged ticks are not the only possible vector for spreading Lyme, either, but that is my educated opinion. You may want to dig your heels in and do some actual research on YOUR behalf! If you only accept allopathic medicine as your only resource (to put it like the Lyme spirochete ) you are screwed! Good luck with your "treatment". I suggest you run fast and find a LLMD Lyme Literate doctor. Did you get the Bulls eye rash? No? Which testing method did your doctor use? PCR? Western blot? Which lab was used for testing? How many bands were positive? Which ones? Did you get tested for co infections? Sure hope you did. Antibiotics are most only effective if the spirochete is in one of its 3 stages. If you take the antibiotics for long periods hope your gut or immune system do not become compromised.
It's your health, but the commissioners or your insurance are not going to help you much.
Call me???
Don't blame the deer. They are just a scapegoat.
4:05 A 6 day old baby, Shayne, was shot in the head with the bullet exiting his eye. The baby is lucky to be alive, but will be blind for the rest of his life. This was from a hunters stray bullet. A couple posters commented about the right of the family to sue the hunter, and who ever else might be responsible, i.e. maybe the state for inadequate hunting safety zones of only 150 yards when the maximum range of a .3006 bullet is over 3 miles. This accident is a concern for Mt. Lebanon residents, not only because of the tragedy for this baby and family, but because certain Commissioners want to bring rifle shooters into Mt. Lebanon to run around shooting deer in our parks and back yards. There is no safe place to shoot high powered rifles in Mt. Lebanon, i.e. it is too densely populated and developed. This has nothing to do with gun rights, or an anti-gun, or hunting campaign, but everything to do with a 6 day old baby who got shot in the head, and the concerns of Lebo residents that don't want any babies or children in Mt. Lebanon being shot. Hopefully, you agree with these safety concerns.
Nick M. I think everyone should read the book, "The Sociopath Next Door", by Martha Stout http://www.amazon.com/Sociopath-Next-Door-Martha-Stout/dp/0767915828. People need to understand how to identify people with sociopath personality disorders, so that they can learn how to deal with or avoid them. "A sociopath disorder is characterized by a disregard for the feelings of others, a lack of empathy, remorse or shame, manipulative behavior, unchecked egocentricity, and the ability to lie in order to achieve one's goals. ... Sociopaths may be cruel to animals and will show absolutely no remorse for that, either."
8:01 PM: these sociopaths usually have a well know personality disorder called Narcisstic Personality Disorder as well as Antisocial Personality Disorder.
Sorry I realize this is long but after reading the attacks on the woman that has Lyme Disease I thought this would "inform" some. It's from the American Lyme Disease Foundation.
Lyme disease (LD) is an infection caused by Borrelia burgdorferi, a type of bacterium called a spirochete (pronounced spy-ro-keet) that is carried by deer ticks. An infected tick can transmit the spirochete to the humans and animals it bites. Untreated, the bacterium travels through the bloodstream, establishes itself in various body tissues, and can cause a number of symptoms, some of which are severe.
LD manifests itself as a multisystem inflammatory disease that affects the skin in its early, localized stage, and spreads to the joints, nervous system and, to a lesser extent, other organ systems in its later,
disseminated stages. If diagnosed and treated early with antibiotics, LD is almost always readily cured. Generally, LD in its later stages can also be treated effectively, but because the rate of disease progression and individual response to treatment varies from one patient to the next, some patients may have symptoms that linger for months or even years following treatment. In rare instances, LD causes permanent damage.
Although LD is now the most common arthropod-borne illness in the U.S. (more than 150,000 cases have been reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention [CDC] since 1982), its diagnosis and treatment can be challenging for clinicians due to its diverse manifestations and the limitations of currently available serological (blood) tests.
The prevalence of LD in the northeast and upper mid-west is due to the presence of large numbers of the deer tick's preferred hosts - white-footed mice and DEER - and their proximity to humans. White-footed mice serve as the principal "reservoirs of infection" on which many larval and nymphal (juvenile) ticks feed and become infected with the LD spirochete. An infected tick can then transmit infection the next time it feeds on another host (e.g., an unsuspecting human).
Borrelia burgdorferi
The LD spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi, infects other species of ticks but is known to be transmitted to humans and other animals only by the deer tick (also known as the black-legged tick) and the related Western black-legged tick.
You can go to that site to read more if you want.
10:28 PM, it would be helpful to give the website when quoting from it.
http://www.aldf.com/lyme.shtml
The emphasis on the word "deer" was yours, I see. From your comment:
White-footed mice serve as the principal "reservoirs of infection"... Emphasis is mine.
Elaine
Elaine I haven't seen any mice around but I do see 12-15 deer in my yard every AM. Hate to break it to you but you are a MINORITY on this subject. The deer cull is going to happen.
I just looked at the CDC's data on PA Lyme Disease over the past 10 years. This is a reportable disease - mandated. So over the last 10 years, there have been 329 cases in PA of Lymes. Using the latest census data of 12,773,801 estimated for PA, this results in a .02% of residents CUMULATIVELY acquiring Lyme's Disease -- and acquiring could have happened anywhere.
So Mt Lebanon, math whizzes that we are, is addressing this horrific, escalating public health threat of Lyme's Disease of .02% of Pennsylvania.
Phew. I am so glad I live in this bubble. I feel safe now.
Said with red, fiery eyes, right 10:55 PM?
Only .02% of PA, 11:09 PM? WOW!
Elaine
No, it's worse than that, Elaine: I guess I was hoping it was that high. I made a math mistake.
The correct % is so low it is astounding:
329/12,773,801 = .00002576, which is .002576%
Of note, wow a days 1/68 kids have autism. But Mt Lebanon is putting synthetic crumb rubber turf in our fields. Meanwhile, toxins have been implicated in the risk for developing autism -- a population subgroup that is growing rapidly.
I am 6:49. I asked many questions of 1:22. Too much didn't make sense. If you have Lyme, your complaints wouldn't match 1:22's
I take Lyme very seriously. What if it wasn't diagnosed early? There are three forms of the Lyme bacteria, boriella burgdorfi: the spirochete, cell wall deficient state and the cyst state.
If I had Lyme I'd want to know everything about it and speak to others that have it. I pick up the phone or email researchers for answers. I go to the source.
If you received a Lyme diagnosis in the cell wall deficient state or while its in the cyst form, doxycycline won't touch it!
People that are really sick with this bacterium do not have the energy for this kind of activity.
.org or .gov doesn't = .always true
I vote Troll.
The information posted on the American Lyme Disease Foundation's website regarding deer is outdated and not accurate. See latest research findings and current statements by the leading Lyme Disease researchers Dr. Richard Ostfeld, Senior Scientist, The Cary Institute, and Dr. Tamara Awerbuch of the Harvard School of Public Health, above at December 7, 2014 at 7:33 PM Deer and Lyme Disease - THE FACTS. In addition, the top wildlife biologists at the Pennsylvania Game Commission, and The Humane Society of the United States support this latest research by Dr. Ostfeld and Dr. Awerbuch. Unfortunately, websites are not always updated and kept current. Plus, there has been a ton of misinformation that has circulated about Lyme disease for years, and many established beliefs are based on this misinformation. That said, the latest research emphatically refutes the notion that killing deer will reduce the tick population or lyme disease rates. Even the American Lyme Disease Foundation does not advocate for deer killing programs to control the spread of Lyme disease. In the face of these undisputable facts it becomes unsupportable to kill deer for Lyme disease reasons
December 8, 2014 at 11:38 PM. If possible, you should add to your calculation, that most cases of Lyme disease in Pennsylvania have occurred in eastern Pa, and so the occurrences in western Pa are even much lower than your results of .002576% cases.
December 9, 2014 at 12:06 AM. I agree with you. 1:22 poster, "recently diagnosed with Lyme disease", didn't make sense. I vote Troll too.
The Facts About Lyme Disease
A extensive 3-year study about Lyme Disease in NJ was done by the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey and published in Lancet, the prestigious British Medical Journal.
The Lancet, Volume 350, Issue 9073, Page 294, 26 July 1997
(STAR-LEDGER)
"The single most significant carrier of Lyme Disease lurks not in deep dark forests, but in parks, on farms and even in the tall grass of suburban backyards. That carrier - the one most likely to bring Lyme-infected ticks in contact with human beings - is not the white-tailed deer, but the white-footed mouse according to doctors at UMDNJ. There is a misconception among most people that deer are the culprit. But no; it's really the mice."
(Dr Steven E Schutzer, a UMDNJ Allergy and Immunology specialist led the research team.)
(USA Today)
"People think since they don't see a deer path or footprints they'll sit down and have a picnic and may unwittingly be placing themselves in the midst of prime mouse (and tick) territory.”
To test the theory, Dr. Schutzer and other New Jersey researchers staked out areas of countryside and measured the number of ticks per square foot. The study found that areas of high suitability for mice had an average of 108.8 ticks per 100 square feet, whereas areas marked by less vegetation and open ground had an average of only 4.6 ticks per 100 square feet.
The reason? Mice need dense ground cover to feel secure. "Mice have three principal requirements to inhabit an area: variety of food, nearby water, and ground cover, which is extremely important for protection, whereas open space is dangerous."
The favorite habitat of the tick is actually the coats of mice: where mice congregate, so will the ticks that transmit Lyme disease.
Please remember this rule of thumb: "when you can see the bare ground from a standing height, the area is not favorable for mice and you should not find signs of mice inhabitation or tick abundance. "
The report also stated that while deer and mice can both serve as hosts on which ticks harmlessly feed, only the mice can transmit the Lyme disease bacteria to ticks.
The name "deer tick" is a misnomer to begin with. These ticks can also be found on 49 bird species, and at least 30 species of mammal, including chipmunks, grey squirrels, voles, foxes, rabbits, and opossums, and even certain reptiles.
In fact, the Lyme Disease organism (Borrelia burgdorferi) is vectored principally by a hard tick, Ixodes dammini, which is commonly found on the Deer Mouse, (Peromyscus maniculatus). (This is most likely how the name "deer" tick began.)
Experts say being able to recognize areas where mice may flourish is important because few people actually follow pubic health recommendations to tuck pants into socks and wear long sleeves while working or playing in their own backyards. (Dr Edward M. Bosler. Director of field studies for Lyme disease and Emerging Pathogens at the State University of New York-Stony Brook.)
It turns out that ever-adaptable white-footed mice find themselves at home in lawns and hedges. Mice and ticks often hide in plants such as pachysandra and ivy and mulched areas.
And in a forest fragmented by development, these locations have the added benefit to mice of being mostly free of predators, like foxes and weasels, who require larger blocks of woodland as their hunting grounds.
Dr. Rick Ostfeld, an ecologist in Millbrook, NY, said that a reduction in biodiversity limits other animals that the ticks may feed on. Therefore, if we kill off other wildlife such as deer or foxes, the ticks will then feed mostly on mice, increasing their chances to become infected with Borrelia. Also cases of Lyme disease increase when there are no deer to attract the ticks, and the ticks therefore land on people.
The justification for deer culling, like the field location and the needs for artificial turf, varies throughout the years. We heard about gardens, Lyme disease, and now it is all about reducing deer/vehicular accidents.
Just keep throwing all kinds of reasons out there and something will stick, Kristen. Now we hear that someone will die someday from a car accident involving deer. The Commission's goal, an unrealistic one, is to reduce the accidents by 50% in five years.
Tonight, the commissioners decide how the deer will be killed. The Discussion starts at 7 PM. The decision will be made then.
Elaine
6:35 AM , This research appears to show, and it seems logical, that killing deer will actually increase the number of Lyme infected ticks; i.e. if you kill the deer and other wildlife hosts, then the ticks are forced to feed on the mice, which are the prime carrier of Lyme disease bacteria. Deer don't carry or transmit Lyme disease bacteria. "Deer are called “dilution hosts” because, even though a tick can feed on a deer, as one of the many mammals offering blood meals to ticks, the disease is not spread through the deer-tick relationship." So as Dr. Ostfeld points out, deer actually reduce the infection prevalence in tick populations.
In addition, deer browsing keeps down overgrown and dense habitat, which is the optimum habitat for mice, and so deer also reduce Lyme disease prevalence by keeping the habitat unsuitable for mice.
Furthermore, if you kill the deer, then the ticks will replace the deer with human hosts. At the adult life cycle stage when ticks prefer a medium to large sized host, such as rabbits, raccoons, or deer etc., if the deer are killed, then the ticks will replace the deer with human hosts, again increasing the chances of people getting Lyme disease.
Based on the statistics reported, the chances of catching Lyme disease in Mt. Lebanon from a tick is extremely remote. However, the irony here is that if Mt. Lebanon moves forward with their deer killing program, they will be increasing the chances of ticks becoming infected with Lyme disease bacteria, and increasing the risks of humans becoming infected.
I'm so angry right now.
If someone with a weapon enters my yard with my kids outside I will shoot first an ask questions later. How am I to assume a hunter is going to shoot with accuracy? Hunter does not imply "good hunter".
The shit going on with this new rule is unbelievable people!
I bet the deer haters that want the deer gone have never tried any method other than lethal to get rid of them.
Unconscionable!
Can anyone post how to get a news outlet to a scene immediately?
My property line is 6 feet from my house. I do not it have a fence. Just about every house in Lebo is close together unless you live in one of the under assessed $5 million mansions.
I say we've totally put a hole in the Lyme theory so let's put that to bed. I respect you allowing anonymous posters Elaine, but I'm having second thoughts when it comes to liars and posters trying to undermine you. However, if I were to give up my anonymity, I would be ostracized. Just thinking out loud. I am saying, I think, that the other side (obsessed deer cullers, Turfers, etc.) play dirty.
So what is the appropriate distance or safety barrier that is allowed for hunters on private property? Can we please discuss this? I personally need some advice.
Can a hunter stand on a property line and shoot? Can they hunt next door while children are nearby? Will hunters be wearing orange or will they be camouflaged? Should it be posted on property perimeter that hunting is going on during "such time and said date"? Is notification is not necessary that lethal activity is going on 6 feet from my house!
This is insane! I will have more to say certainly.
Signed 6:49
6:49 at 11:38 AM,
Notification was not an option for me in 2007 or so. I begged for that. They could not/would not tell me. I believe that was because 1) Mt. Lebanon was afraid of me staging a protest and 2) It depends upon when the deer show up on the property.
What is being discussed tonight SHOULD be bowhunting at the golf course, but knowing how Mt. Lebanon works, they will try to sneak in more areas.
Elaine
When I called MTLPD to ask about hunters trespassing on my property they referred me to PW, Tom Kelly! I've never managed to speak to him and given other reasons I've had to call him, he never returns calls. I was referred to the Lebo website but the needed info is buried so deep I could not find it.
Apparently PA game commission laws supercede any municipalities rules.
A wounded deer must be caught. It can take hours to catch a wounded deer. A hunter "follows the blood trail". When a hunter shoots it doesn't have to be a shoot to kill shot. When a deer is shot at, the whole pack runs. THIS will cause the real deer vs. car accidents.
Wake up lebo! This deer issue cannot be wrapped up into a neat little package! What I am talking about has nothing to do with my beliefs of killing animals for food. Personally I don't like the taste of venison. Buffalo meat is good.
It is not smart to allow crossbow hunters or any hunting in a densely populated area.
The irony: if you find a just born baby deer in your yard, animal control will not do anything. If you find a wounded deer in your yard the police will do nothing. However, a stranger with a lethal weapon will be allowed to follow the blood trail into your yard without any warning and discharge his weapon.
Contact cara sapida wpxi. She is on Twitter and fb for further contact info.
6:49, at your request, I'm reposting an earlier post on Safety Zones for your review.
Safety Zones?
The Pennsylvania Game Commission's (PGC) "safety zone" regulations are totally arbitrary, and have nothing to do with safety or protecting the public. State law provides a "safety zone" restricting firearm hunting within 150 yards of occupied buildings, and 50 yards for archery hunting. The archery safety zone was changed from 150 yards to 50 yards a few years ago to open up more hunting opportunities for its hunter constituents, but remains 150 yards if in proximity to schools or day care centers. However, this 150 yard expanded safety zone for archery in proximity to schools or day care centers doesn't apply to back yards with children playing. These "safety zone" regulations are totally inadequate to protect the safety of the public. The maximum range for a compound bow is 595 yards, and an extreme cam compound bow 931yards. The maximum range for a .223 rifle with 55 grain bullets (typical rifle and ammo used for suburban deer culls) is 2.2 miles, and a .3006 rifle (typical deer hunting rifle) is 3.22 miles. So how can "safety zones" of 150 yards and 50 yards protect the public, especially in a densely populated and developed community like Mt. Lebanon?
My understanding, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, that back in 2006/07 and 2007/08, Mt. Lebanon applied for a special permit that overrode all state regulated safety zones, which allowed contractors to shoot high powered rifles on Mt. Lebanon owned property with absolutely no safety zones to protect the public. In addition, if a resident signed up for the program, they could allow shooters to bait and shoot deer in their yards, without even notifying their surrounding neighbors. I know this sounds difficult to believe and many might think insane, but I believe I'm presenting that program accurately. Can you imagine living next store or behind a resident that is allowing a contractor to shoot a high powered rifle on their property, assuming that you are even informed, and have no rights or way to protect your family from this serious safety threat, but have to live in fear in your own home, and afraid to go outside or take your dog out on your property? This program was cancelled because of public safety concerns. As I understand, one commissioner was pushing to implement this same dangerous program this year and ongoing on an annual basis, and was extremely disappointed when the majority of the Commission did not vote to approve it, because of the serious public safety concerns.
I know one young woman with Post-traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), that pleaded with the Commission not to allow men with lethal weapons into the community. Her pleas fell on deaf ears. I know of two other residents that suffer from PTSD that are also beyond anxious with this newly approved deer killing program.
I've stood in the middle of most of Mt. Lebanon's parks, and can see the homes surrounding these parks from all points within the parks. Kids and teenagers are constantly crossing through these parks as short cuts day and night, and there is no way to adequately shut these parks down. There is no safe place to shoot lethal weapons in Mt. Lebanon. It's an accident waiting to happen.
IMO, families should have a legal right to feel safe from the threat of lethal weapons in their homes and community.
Elaine, I saw the picture you posted of the view from your home or porch. It looked liked there was a very small park adjacent to the road that ran in front of your house. I remember you saying that the kids sled riding were running over the apples used for deer bait, and the grass cutters were running over the baits, etc. My question is were the shooters, just pulling off the side of the road, and shooting at the deer from the back of their trucks? If not, where were the bait stations, and how and where were the shooters positioned when they shot and killed the deer?
As I understand, Mt. Lebanon's special permit allowed them to override all state mandated safety zones. I was wondering, if they refused to give you any notice when the shooting would take place, what, if any, safety precautions did they implement?
Did they close the park down, so that no kids were cutting through the park?
If there were no safety zones, and if they didn't notify anyone in the neighborhood when the shooting was going to take place, and they didn't shut the park down, or take any other safety precautions, how could anyone feel that this was safe?
This was going on 6 mths out of the year in the 2006/07 and 2007/08 time period. How did this make you feel?
6:49 I'm reposting an earlier post on bow hunting wounding rates for your review.
Bow Hunting 50% + Wounding Rate
Twenty- two published scientific surveys and studies indicate that the average wounding rate for bow hunting is over 50 percent.
For example, "Preliminary Archery Survey Report" Montana Dept. of Fish Wildlife and Parks reports 51% wounding; "Archery Wounding Loss in Texas" Texas Parks and Wildlife Department (51% wounded); "Deer Hunting Retrieval Rates" Michigan Pittman-Robertson Report, Michigan Dept. of Natural Resources (58% wounded); "Effects of Compound Bow Use on Hunter Success and Crippling Rates in Iowa" Wildlife Society Bulletin (49% wounded); "Bow hunting for Deer in Vermont: Some Characteristics of the Hunters, the Hunt, and the Harvest" Vermont Fish and Game Department (63% wounded). The average wounding rate from all 22 reports is 55%.
More than one out of every two deer shot is never retrieved, but dies a slow tortuous death from blood loss and infection. These wounded deer will be dying in residents yards traumatizing families and their children, and running out into the roads causing accidents. In addition, bow hunters often mistake resident's dogs for deer.
Laura Simon, The Humane Society of the United States' wildlife biologist, writes, "Bow-hunting is undeniably inhumane and can incur crippling rates ranging from 40%-60% (Gregory 2005, Nixon et. al 2001, Moen 1989, Cada 1988, Boydston and Gore 1987, Langenau 1986, Gladfelter 1983, Stormer et. al, 1979, Downing 1971). In other words, on average, for every deer struck by an arrow, another may be crippled but not killed. The sight of wounded deer can be extremely traumatic for adults and children alike, and was one of the main reasons that a deer hunt on Fire Island in NY was called off and a immunocontraception-based program implemented instead."
6:49 If a bow hunter is hunting on your neighbor's property or in the neighborhood, there is a very good chance that you and your children will see wounded deer, or have wounded deer in your back yard dying and bleeding out, or lying down in shock, and hoping for help - depending on the severity of the wound. And then you will likely have hunters either trespassing on your property, or knocking on your door asking for permission to finish the deer off. That could mean shooting another arrow into her, or cutting her throat, depending on the situation. So you will have to somehow prepare your kids for this trauma, and yourself to know what you are going to do if and when this happens.
I have a friend in USC, who has wounded deer in her back yard every year during the USC bow hunt. This is absolutely heartbreaking for her, and causes severe trauma and depression every year.
That said, as I understand, the initial plan is to bow hunt in McNeilly Park and the golf course. So depending on where you live, this might not be an immediate threat. However, no doubt, they will expand hunting locations next year.
However, they will likely be killing deer with trap and bolt in residents yards, so that's another issue that you might have to deal with. You can see info on that in the post above, December 5, 2014 at 11:23 PM
If you see something go wrong, take pictures or videotape it, combined with 911 call and documentation. These hunters cannot trespass on private property.
1:00 pm. I think 4:33 pm is correct. Hunters are not allowed to trespass on private property, even to get a deer.
All states might be different. However, I had a friend in CT, who refused to allow a hunter to get a deer he shot and killed. He knocked on her door, and she refused, and kicked him off her property. Then she called the local media, and they came out with a film crew, and did a TV story on the 6 pm news on the incident. She was really pissed off, because she tried to stop bow hunting in her community, because of this exact incident. So it got a lot of media attention, and the hunter had no right to trespass on her property.
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