The Mt. Lebanon School District and the Mt. Lebanon Police Department will hold an informational meeting for parents about school safety on December 3, 2014, at 7:00 p.m. in the Mellon Middle School Auditorium. The program will focus on an introduction to ALICE, (Alert, Lockdown, Inform, Counter, and Evacuate) a school safety program that provides a research-based, proactive approach that teaches options in response to a school intruder. This past summer the MLPD trained all District administrators and staff in ALICE. The program will be introduced to our students during the second semester. The ALICE program will be used as an enhancement to the School District's safety strategies.A concerned parent sent me this email regarding ALICE.
They are going to train children to thwart would-be assailants and gunmen in the schools. An ex-policeman came up with this ALICE program and is claiming it is research-based and it is not. His own district, where his wife was a principal, originally intended to use the program and after seeing what the training involved, all of the other principals from the district wrote a letter vehemently against the program, and the district withdrew from using the program. Please see the mtlsd website for more information about this developmentally inappropriate, non-scientific, anxiety-inducing program. Parents will need to convince the district not to employ the program.At the same time, Mt. Lebanon Commissioners have introduced this amended ordinance.
Introduction of Ordinance (Bill No. 21-14) amending municipal park rules. -
A new state law will take effect in January, known as Act 192. Mt. Lebanon is modifying its recreation rules to comply with the state law.
Recommended Action: Introduce Ordinance (Bill No. 21-14).Towns are not taking this legislation lightly. A previous comment submitted by a Lebo Citizens reader included this:
Here's the docket and petition for the lawsuit submitted by a group of legislators and mayors of Philly, Pgh, and Lancaster re: Act 192
Docket Number: 585 MD 2014
Petition for Review Leach v Commonwealth: Suit seeking overturning of law that lets NRA sue cities.Where are our State Representative and State Senator?
On top of all of this, Mt. Lebanon Police, Firefighters and Public Works are gearing up to begin a deer culling program in Mt. Lebanon. Mt. Lebanon staffers become hunters to attack deer problem
This is insane.
41 comments:
In the light of information provided in 8:04's comment and the PA Deer Hunting regulations we may want to DEMAND several requirements for the MTL cull!
"OFFICER'S ERRANT SHOT AT DEER UPSETS RESIDENTS
The Buffalo News (Buffalo, NY)
Byline: Thomas J. Dolan - NEWS NORTHTOWNS BUREAU
Three days after an errant shot fired from a nearby woods struck their home, a young Amherst couple are still shaken by the thought of what could have happened.
Amherst police say that one of their officers -- a marksman who is taking part in the town's bait and shoot program to control deer -- fired the round and that the shot ricocheted before hitting the house."
"
Police were withholding the names of the officer who fired the round and the owners of the home that was struck."
We need to know if an errant arrow was shot... who shot it.
Shooters, whether Police, Firemen or PW employees must be identified and their arrows clearly marked should a problem occur. The easiest way to eliminate cover-ups, is to prevent them in the first place!
Then if the PA Game Commission has rules for hunters to wear orange vest, our hired "guns" (or bowmen) should follow those requirements. Residents need to know when these people are about.
You may also want to dress your kids in orange vest as well if they play in our parks and woods. The PA Game Commission recommends it!
"Deer hunting 2014: Rules and regulations of the rifle season that opens Monday | PennLive.com"
"Each hunter must wear at least 250 square inches of fluorescent orange material on his head, chest and back combined. An orange hat and vest will satisfy the requirement.
For safety, non-hunters who might be afield during the deer season and other hunting seasons might also want to consider wearing orange at this time."
http://blog.pennlive.com/pa-sportsman/2014/11/deer_hunting_2014_rules_and_re.html#incart_m-rpt-1
"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they say!
-WS
"Keep Our Schools Safe", hun? Interesting considering that a number of schools have gone into lockdown at the mere suggestion that a gunmen has maybe been sighted in the neighborhood.
But here in MTL in and effort to keep our kids safe in school we're going to let hunters roam through our woods and parks culling deer.
The golf course and its woods are only a block or so away from Howe. McNeilly Park is what a couple of hundred yards from Keystone Oaks and Seton LaSalle?
So what does a resident do when they spot someone in the neighborhood. Call the school and warn them? Call the police dept.?
Or should they sit back and think... hey, not my problem, just some of those crazy PWs people out enjoying a day of slaughtering our local deer while maybe a nut attacks a school.
It indeed does take a village to keep our children safe, but what does the village do when you can't easily indentify the bad people?
-WS
Correction--
"Keep Our Schools Safe", hun? Interesting considering that a number of schools [around the nation] have gone into lockdown at the mere suggestion that a gunmen has maybe been sighted in the neighborhood.
Forget about the kids, WS.
It is imperative that we protect the Hibiscus at all costs!
The odds of an American child being the victim of a school shooting, according to the National Association of School Psychologists, are still only 1 in 2.5 million.
Active-shooter language ‘creates a great deal of anxiety, a great deal of fear, and lowers people’s ability to make good decisions…. What we know is that that alarmist, frightening language results in people focusing on the last resort.’ -Michael Dorn, Safe Havens International
Part of the problem with ALICE, is that
the controversy is over the “COUNTER” portion of the training that has trainers teaching young unarmed students to attack an armed gunman with pencils, books or any object around them. "While the gunman is busy ducking and covering his head from our air assault, we can now begin the ground assault," the booklet continues. "If we can motivate a small number of the attacked to become attackers if necessary, we will decide when and how this event ends."
But first, Crane, the SWAT Team guy that profits from Mt Lebanon using this program, recommends rearranging classroom layouts to create a "minefield" that would make movement more difficult for an assailant once inside. Defensive measures for students also include jumping out of windows to escape.
Deer carry diseases (think of them as rats with long legs), create traffic accidents and are wild and dangerous animals - particaularly during the rutt.
Not culling the population is NOT an option. Rifle hunting is the most human and safest way to do this. There is a higher risk of a deer being invovled in a fatal traffic accident (adult and or child related) than for an injury due to culling.
As for wearing "orange" vests and hats 1. folks need to better educated on how to hunt and 2. I really dont think attracking attention to a hunt is in the best interest of non-hunters - particarly youth and 3. if the intent is to flag hunters so someone disrupt or interfer with the hunt there are state laws that prohibit that.
I understand we are suburan commnuity but we have created wildlife freiendly environment - which although nice and I'm all for - does bring with it all manner of diseases I want to keep out of the community and my young children. http://triblive.com/state/pennsylvania/7246988-74/disease-deer-pennsylvania
Here is a link to a 2010 booklet Crane (ALICE inventor) presented to an Ohio school district.
http://cc.ohioschoolboards.org/2010/uploads/SafetyTues2.pdf
So while the district creates "minefield" classroom layouts, we'll be inhibiting easy transitions between classes and escape from the building in event of a fire.
Brilliant, we spend $113+ million to make movement in the building easier, then we'll un
...then we'll undo all the improvements to satisfy 'ALICE'.
Smart! ;-p
-WS
Is this for an insurance discount? Who is the school district insurer?
"In addition to traditional training services, our web based risk management platform saves time and money while simplifying the challenges of developing, implementing and improving your organizations active shooter response system. Features include annual school district certifications designed to give parents and insurance underwriters peace of mind to e-learning modules, webinars, and a knowledge base that allows our customers to ask questions from a team of experts"
We just returned from a business trip to the UK and over there they are getting ready for attacks on their schools. Seems that planes have gotten hard to come by so several hundred kids will have to do. I'm sure (I hope!) our government is prepared for this too. Funny how in London and outside areas are installing the old style emergency warning signals and Mt Lebanon threw out theirs. Guess Brumfield and crew will notify citizens of an emergency by smoke signals if the power grid is hit.
Smoke signals are out....bonfires or any open burning are illegal in Leboland and will not be tolerated.
Sorry for the cross post. Here is what I have been able to find out. Evidently, the NRA is behind all of this. The NRA hijacked the Republicans. 100% of the R's pushed this bill through the House and Senate. I see that Miller and Smith voted against this.
Act 192 goes into law next month. So what happens? To comply, Weis struck out all language pertaining to guns and firearms. What is left of this butchered ordinance no one can use any remote control vehicle or slingshots. Is there a National Slingshot Association? Yes, that was sarcasm.
I'm sure the crazy people like 1:56 PM here are chest bumping. Warning, 1:56 PM. Chest bumping may be painful for women.
Elaine
Dear, 1:56 PM - I'll assume that your comments are based on your lack of knowledge and experience with deer and wildlife in general. There is no threat to humans from Chronic Wasting Disease in deer; the CDC states that in the article you posted. In addition, there have only been a handful of CWD detected in deer in Pa anyway, 2 in captive deer farms, and a couple in the wild in Adams and Jefferson County. In addition, the leading Lyme disease experts have concluded, that there is no correlation between deer numbers and Lyme disease. Deer pose no threat to humans with any inherent deer diseases that they might carry. So relax, your concerns are scientifically baseless.
On the other hand, shooting high powered rifles in Mt. Lebanon's parks, neighborhoods, and back yards, which have a 2.20 mile maximum lethal range is an accident waiting to happen - see recent posts on hunting and culling accidents. Tony DeNicola, the president of White Buffalo, was quoted in a regional Pittsburgh newspaper saying that, "It's highly stressful because you always have to assume you're going to miss."
Plus, killing deer doesn't effectively resolve deer-human conflicts. While it may seem counter intuitive, killing deer actually triggers an increase in deer reproduction and population.
With regard to your concerns with deer being wild and dangerous animals, I can speak from my own extensive wildlife education and experience with being around deer my entire life. Deer are very gentle and timid animals who almost always flee from people, and most deer in suburban communities are semi-tame. I think the quotes from the wildlife experts below confirm my experiences with deer, and should put your concerns to rest.
WILDLIFE EXPERTS ON DEER ATTACKS
Larry Hawkins, a legislative and public affairs officer for the U.S. Department of Agriculture Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service said, "nationwide, deer attacks are rare."
Wildlife Conservation Officer Kenneth Packard said, "Deer almost always flee from people, and deer attacks against people are extremely rare."
Anne Bull, a spokeswoman for New Brunswick's Department of Natural Resources, said "attacks by deer are extremely rare."
Howard Burt, the region's Fish, Wildlife, and Parks Biologist said "[deer]attacks are extremely rare unless a deer perceives they are being threatened or defending a fawn."
Even these rare events can be minimized through appropriate issue-specific resident education. As part of such an education program on wildlife, residents can be informed of ways to peacefully and safely coexist with deer and other wildlife.
Contrast these statements with 350,000 dog bite victims requiring emergency room attention yearly, with 30-35 fatalities in each of the past several years, and you have some perspective.
The main problem in Mt. Lebanon is the smorgasbord of irresistible flowers and plants that residents grow in their yards, and that Mt. Lebanon plants in its 30+ flower islands throughout the community. It's this abundant food resource that is the major attractant causing deer to cross the roads (car-deer collisions) to come into Mt. Lebanon to browse (eating flower complaints). Mt. Lebanon has to reach out to its residents and ask for their help; hold deer proofing seminars, and show the residents how they can have beautiful gardens and landscapes by planting deer resistant plants and flowers, and using repellents and other effective deterrents. Until Mt. Lebanon addresses this central problem, nothing that they do will resolve the deer human conflicts.
I personally know of five of my neighbors who have been bitten my dogs in the last five years - six, including myself. One was a little kid whose parents should have known better. In the past year I've had a dozen "encounters" with deer - including one massive buck. All of them fled when I raised my arms. If the number of deer attacks were as great as some people on this blog would have you think the story would be on ABC, NBC, and CBS!
10:07
I appreciate your attempt to educate an anonymous post. But seems you missed the mark as well. I don't know of any hunting rifle used for deer that have a maximum lethal range of 2.2 miles. The longest kill shot in combat was set in Afghanistan in 2010 by British sniper Craig Harrison using a .338 Lapua round in a specially designed sniper rifle. The shot was 1.54 miles. You likely won't see that rifle or that round with deer hunters. But I get your point. And as I've stated publicly, it is just a dumb idea to shoot within our municipality. People miss. Even the best.
JECannon 10:07. I think you are confusing maximum range and maximum effective range - easy to do. Maximum effective range is the distance at which a weapon may be expected to be accurate and achieve the desired effect, i.e. deliver an accurate target hit, shoot an enemy combatant, hitting a target at a firing range, getting an accurate heart/lung deer shot, ect. The maximum range is the greatest distance a weapon can fire without consideration of dispersion. For example, if you're a hunter, your concern is maximum effective range; i.e. how far a .30-06 rifle will accurately blow the heart out of a deer. I think most suggest that would be between 200 and 300 yards. However, some top notch .30-06 rifles will attain its effective accuracy range for slightly over 1,400 yards. However, the maximum range of a .30-06 is 3.22 miles. This is how far a bullet can travel, i.e. a missed or ricochet shot, or misfire. The other variable involved is at what range does the bullet have enough energy to effectively injure and/or kill a child or human. I'm not sure the testing has been done to accurately determine those calculations, but who wants their child or loved one to find out. Bottom line, the maximum effective range is the range of most importance to a densely populated and developed community like Mt. Lebanon.
Below are some facts about bullet speeds and distances
.22 Long Rifle (40 gr RN)
Muzzle Velocity 1255 ft/s
Maximum Range 2000 yard, 1.14 mile
Impact Velocity 300 ft/s
.223 Remington (55 gr SP BT)
Muzzle Velocity 3240 ft/s
Maximum Range 3875 yard, 2.20 mile
Impact Velocity 545 ft/s
30-06 Springfield (180 gr SP BT)
Muzzle Velocity 2700 ft/s
Maximum Range 5675 yard, 3.22 mile
Impact Velocity 800 ft/s
9mm Luger (Parabellum) (124 gr RN)
Muzzle Velocity 1120 ft/s
Maximum Range 2400 yard, 1.36 mile
Impact Velocity 350 ft/s
45 ACP (230 gr RN)
Muzzle Velocity 850 ft/s
Maximum Range 1800 yard, 1.02 mile
Maximum Range, Impact Velocity 330 ft/s
44 Magnum (240 gr FP)
Muzzle Velocity 1760 ft/s
Maximum Range 2500 yard, 1.42 mile
Impact Velocity 350 ft/s
Just to follow up on the quick risk analysis I did earlier, I have now examined almost 4 years of deer-incident data and 1.5 years of car-accident data from Mt. Lebanon. Here's the bottom line:
In Mt. Lebanon, you're 50 times more likely to be injured in a car accident than a deer incident.
I'm not saying the car risk is big. I'm saying the deer risk is small.
Do reasonable people consider cars in Mt. Lebanon to be "a major public safety issue"? Of course not. Everyone understands that, while cars can cause loss of life and limb, the overall risk is small enough not to worry us or prevent us from going about our lives. We buy car insurance, buckle our seat belts, and move on.
But deer – an injury risk only 2% as large – that's what our Mt. Lebanon leaders go on the TV news and declare "a major public safety issue."
How is that not fearmongering?
P.S. For the curious, here's the breakdown:
Deer incidents involving injuries:
6 incidents / 3.8 years = 1.6 incidents/year
Car incidents involving injuries:
141 incidents / 1.7 years = 83.5 incidents/year
Relative risk: car to deer:
83.5 / 1.6 = 52.8
(Yes, that figure counts deer incidents that cause car accidents as "deer incidents.")
To 1:56, wrote in response to a suggestion by 10:19 that people/kids walking in our woods or around the golf course wear orange: "As for wearing "orange" vests and hats 1. folks need to better educated on how to hunt and 2. I really dont think attracking attention to a hunt is in the best interest of non-hunters - particarly youth and 3. if the intent is to flag hunters so someone disrupt or interfer with the hunt there are state laws that prohibit that."
You advise 1:56, that "people need to be better educated on how to hunt."
Really, then why does the Game Commission set strict regulation on the square inches of orange hunters must wear. I suggest you take you advice to our state reps and tell them the Game Commission is full of deer excrement.
The Game Commission also offers the following warning to non-hunters regularly during deer season. It is not some hare-brained scheme by 10:19 to 'attract' attention to the cull.
"For safety, non-hunters who might be afield during the deer season and other hunting seasons might also want to consider wearing orange at this time."
http://blog.pennlive.com/pa-sportsman/2014/11/deer_hunting_2014_rules_and_re.html#incart_m-rpt-1
Accidental woundings/deaths of misidentified targets are not uncommon during hunting season.
Is it so far-fetched that kids playing or collecting golf balls around the municipal course could be mistaken for a deer by an overzealous archer?
I think not.
FYI 1:56.
http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/9186.html
"Hunter orange prevents other hunters from mistaking a person for an animal, or shooting in your direction.
Hunters who wear hunter orange are seven times less likely to be shot. For example, during the past ten years, not one person who was wearing hunter orange was mistaken for game and killed in New York. On the contrary, big game hunters who were involved in firearm related incidents were not wearing hunter orange."
We ordered 2 orange vests for our dogs from LL Bean yesterday to ensure their safety in the MTL parks now that the NRA and Kristin Linfante are making all the rules.
But unfortunately, my 8 year old overheard the firearm and deer cull discussions in our house and we think, but aren't sure, she may have misinterpreted the info. When I came home from work today, she said, "Mom, we didn't see any deer or hunters in the yard today". I guess she thought that was reassuring news.
8:25
If you're going to patronize someone, at least sign your name. I do. If you're certain of what you're posting, put your name to it. I don't see the problem with doing so.
And I'm not confused about anything. I'm fully aware of the difference between maximum range and maximum effective range. Didn't know I was being graded on my use of ballistics terminology. Great Internet search for "bullet speeds and distances". Interesting you post the initial velocity rate and nothing else. I'm sure you understand velocity decreases with distance, thus causing the round to not only slow down but drop vertically. Let's look at the .30-06, since you offered it up. When fired, it has an initial velocity of around 2800 feet per second (f/ps). At 300 yards, it's dropped in speed to about 2200 f/ps and almost a foot in vertical height. At 500 yards, it's at about 1800 f/ps and dropped a matter of several feet. And on and on.
So could a round travel 2.2 miles? Yes. Would it be lethal at that point? Heck if I know since I haven't tested it but it doesn't seem likely since it would need enough velocity to penetrate. At 1000 yards, the round is traveling at less than half its initial velocity, and once it goes subsonic, it will drop like a rock. That's like saying a baseball pitcher can throw 95 mph and will break someone's jaw if the ball hits the batter--but leaving out the part about the batter being 100 yards away. Will that 95 mph pitch still knock someone down at that distance?
Here is the post to which I was responding:
"On the other hand, shooting high powered rifles in Mt. Lebanon's parks, neighborhoods, and back yards, which have a 2.20 mile maximum lethal range is an accident waiting to happen"
No idea where the 2.2 mile "lethal range" number originated. But it's fear-mongering and just silly to write something like that. Based on the fact you pulled your information straight from the Internet, I have to assume you have limited knowledge of firearms as well. So are we done with the tutorial now?
All that said, I agree (and have STATED SO) that shooting any kind of rifle at deer while within the municipal borders is dangerous, short-sighted and could result in a serious situation. At 100 yards, an errant round does have enough behind it to be fatal. It's simply not worth the risk.
Message to everyone: Stop falling for the false narrative that car accidents are the impetus for a deer cull. That's absolute BS. It all has to do with aesthetics. But it's a very easy problem to fix. Want to get rid of deer? Stop giving them things to eat. They go where the food is. No food-no deer. Pretty simple concept. And the best part? It would be free!
8:25 PM CORRECTION. I posted, Bottom line, the maximum effective range is the range of most importance to a densely populated and developed community like Mt. Lebanon. CORRECTION, that should have said, the MAXIMUM RANGE is the range of most importance to a densely populated and developed community like Mt. Lebanon
JECannon III 11:56 pm
Mr. Cannon, my intent wasn't at all to patronize you or anyone else. I apologize if that's how you took it, or how it came across; especially, since it seems that we are on the same page. My intent was to respond to your earlier post that seemed to question the accuracy of the 2.20 mile maximum range of a .223 rifle. I have no idea what the level of expertise or understanding, that the average reader and/or commenter on Lebo Citizens Blog has with firearms.
My original comment was: "On the other hand, shooting high powered rifles in Mt. Lebanon's parks, neighborhoods, and back yards, which have a 2.20 mile maximum lethal range is an accident waiting to happen"
In review, I do agree with your criticism; i.e. I shouldn't have written 2.20 mile maximum "lethal" range; i.e. at 2.20 miles we don't know if the bullet would have enough velocity left to be lethal. That was a typo that I didn't catch, or understand in your response. However, I did point out in my follow-up response:
"The other variable involved is at what range does the bullet have enough energy to effectively injure and/or kill a child or human. I'm not sure the testing has been done to accurately determine those calculations, but who wants their child or loved one to find out."
You wrote, "So could a round travel 2.2 miles? Yes. Would it be lethal at that point? Heck if I know since I haven't tested it but it doesn't seem likely since it would need enough velocity to penetrate."
Again, I agree with you, we just don't know. I doubt that a typical .223 rifle, 55 grain bullet, at 2.20 miles would have the velocity for a lethal heart/lung shot of a deer or an adult human. That said, let's take the projectile velocity at 2.0 or 1.5 miles, what ever that might be. Does the bullet at 2.0 or 1.5 miles have the velocity to penetrate a child's eye and brain, or cause a serious injury. I don't know, and again, I agree with you, "It's simply not worth the risk" to find out. I think we need to err on the side of caution, and not having men running around shooting rifles in Mt. Lebanon that have bullets that can travel 2.20 miles.
Plus, I also totally agree with your last comment:
"Message to everyone: Stop falling for the false narrative that car accidents are the impetus for a deer cull. That's absolute BS. It all has to do with aesthetics. But it's a very easy problem to fix. Want to get rid of deer? Stop giving them things to eat. They go where the food is. No food-no deer. Pretty simple concept. And the best part? It would be free!"
This is a disingenuous bait and switch strategy. This is all about deer eating flowers and plants, which goes back to 2005/2006, when Commissioner Barbara Logan, who served on Commissioner Linfante's executive committee during her campaign (what a coincidence), launched the initial campaign to turn Mt. Lebanon into a shooting gallery.
So J.E. Cannon, I think we're on the same page.
Who will be wearing their orange vests on Tuesday, December 9?
If we're on the same page, sign your name. You have no credibility otherwise.
The debate over lethal ranges is rather silly.
Even a BB gun with a muzzle velocity of about 180fps has enough energy to " shoot your eye out kid!"
That's why we had ordinances forbidding shooting any weapon in Lebo.
I too agree with Cannon's last paragraph. Why we follow along with these people that obviously have little experience with hunting or deer is beyond me. Can you imagine anyone of the commissioners out in the woods stalking anything with a weapon of any kind?
I see that no one has picked up on my suggest to brand the arrows used by our police, firemen and PW employees. Why not is beyond me.
It serves two purposes.
Should find an errant shot we'll immediately know if it was one of ours or if their are poachers hunting Our woods illegally.
Then we'll know who isn't a good shot or who the police should be tracking down.
- WS
Isn't the golf course for golfing? Is there an ordinance in Mt Lebanon permitting archery on the golf course? Isn't this a "change in use"? Why isn't the archery program open to all qualified archers? Is archery on the golf course a privilege reserved for Mt Lebanon employees?
Apparently, 10:32!
In fact, PW employees, Police and Firemen don't even have to use up vacation time to go deer hunting at some far away camp.
- WS
I offered this suggestion under ann earlier topic, 10:32.
Why should we pay anybody to cull deer?
Every hunter I ever talked to would love to bag more than one deer in a season! These guys and gals that are into this stuff-- dressing in camoflouge, getting out in the open air, shooting things-- pay the game commission millions of dollars for the priviledge.
SO WHY ARE OUR DEER-HUNTING POLICE OFFICERS, FIREMAN AND PW PEOPLE THE ONLY ONES ALLOWED TO GET IN ON THE "FUN" AND GET PAID TO DO IT?
So here's the idea— the Commissioners are going to proceed with this cull regardless of our opinions on the matter, so why not make money off it.
Issue MTL deer hunting tags for a fee which goes towards paying for sports shit.
Any archery capable MTL resident can pay $30 to take the Robin Hood skills test. Hit three bullseye from 35 yds, pass a written safety test and they become qualified to shoot deer on the golf course or at McNeilly and Twins Hills Park. We can't let just any fool launching arrows everywhere.
Then once they qualify, they buy a $100 MTL hunting license which allows them to kill as many deer as their little hearts can desire on a selected weekend. Say each weekend we issue 10 license-- can't have the woods and course crammed with hundreds of hunters at one time!
Everybody wins! Linfante gets rid of her deer. Hunters are happy. Taxpayers save $80,000 AND the sports people get private money to pay for their "crown jewel" turf facilities.
Why should we PAY employees to hunt in the Queen's forest when there are "peasants" out there that would pay for the "priviledge?"
After all if the PA Game Commission can charge people to hunt, why can't we charge people to shoot our deer on our public land in our little Home Rule Community?
- Will Stutely
November 27, 2014 at 8:43 AM
WS-
I agree that this recreation program needs to get underway. There should be resident AND non-resident fees. Do we really know how many great archers live among us? They might live in USC or Dormont, so let's not be exclusive. Many archers in Western PA believe that the archery culls are too exclusive. Just look at what they write on the local blogs related to Pittsburgh archery. They would love to come to Mt Lebanon and hunt on the golf course. So let's see this new program get underway. But don't forget the criminal background check! If parents need them to volunteer in the schools, let's hope our archery friends are truly friends.
2:14, the police department could run a background check just as Dicks, Cabela's, or Gander Mountain does for a gun purchase, before issuing the MTL Cull permit.
I have to ask...why would any intelligent thinking resident want a non-qualified person who has absolutely no experience at bow hunting to hunt fast moving animals in their back yards or in our parks?
Do you really want someone with just a safety course certificate shooting arrows around your house?
Remember, Kristen said that these folks will be in the trees as your kids are walking to and from school. There is no safety course that teaches safe hunting within a municipality so close to homes.
I can't believe the mentality of the commissioners who suggested this. Never mind, yes I can.
Nick M.
State law prohibits hunting on parkland to be a privilege reserved for caretakers of the land.
Mt Lebanon needs a PG blog for kids. Some of them are getting the wrong news about Mt Lebanon. A child recounted this story today:
Three middle school boys were walking home from school when...
John suggested, "We should go hang out at the park".
Sean said, "No, I don't think that's a good idea. They are hunting deer in the park".
John exclaimed, "No way, they can't do that -- that's illegal!".
Sean explained, "They are allowing this in the park now. Mt Lebanon is going to do this".
John said, "I love deer. Deer are great".
Mike said, "They poop all over my yard. They should kill them".
(Names are changed)
Of note, Sean notes that Mike is likely to run from deer if observed nearby.
Killed for a Tulip (Part 1)
Pulling the curtain back to see what's the real motivation for turning Mt. Lebanon into a dangerous private hunting club and shooting gallery.
Below are some press quotes from ex-Commissioner Barbara Logan who started the push for a deer killing program back in 2005/2006.
"My shouting and screaming at them does nothing," she said.
"My concern is that if, or when, this plan happens, many of us will be disappointed because our deer are not in an area where we can cull them," said Commissioner Barbara Logan.
"I'm afraid that once we start culling them, they'll lay low until it is over,"added Logan
Ms. Logan said she understood that some people are upset at the thought of killing deer, but whether they die from old age, disease, hunger or hunting, "One way or another, the deer are going to die."
Make your own assessment, but these quotes give the impression that killing the deer was a personal agenda. No mention of car-deer collisions.
Commissioner Logan rejected an offer from Jay Kirkpatrick Ph.D., the Director of the Science and Conservation Center at Zoo Montana (www.sccpzp.org), and one of the leading wildlife contraception scientists, to help Mt. Lebanon implement a PZP deer contraception program. There are peer reviewed studies published in scientific journals showing suburban deer populations reduced over time by 35-50%. (http://www.animalfertilitycontrolvaccine.org).
The deer haters club baton was passed from Commissioner Barbara Logan to appointed Commissioner Bonnie VanKirk (Raja leaving), and then to Commissioner Linfante. Barbara Logan served on Linfante's executive committee during her campaign, and Linfante's campaign manager was Rob Papke, who is an avid "gentleman" gardener, who apparently is not very fond of deer, because they eat his flowers.
Quote taken from Nov. 3. 2012 Lebo Citizens Blog post. The original quote might be a FB post.
rob papke so true, tracey. the alternative to a controlled culling is to introduce other natural predators into the habitat, such as mountain lions and coyote; i really don't think that this is a very wise choice. we can not continue to do nothing, ...they are everywhere and they cause trouble other than treating our gardens as salad bars. man, as the other natural predator, must take action to control the herd. also, the "bambi" lovers are a relatively small % of the mtl population however they are very vocal in their opposition to doing anything about the problem.
Mt. Lebanon Magazine Facebook Posts
https://www.facebook.com/mtlebanonmagazine/posts/10151627048113666
Rob Papke The deer this year are insatiable. 30 June 2013 at 14:42
Rob Papke They are eating anything and everything in mine. 30 June 2013 at 14:47
With Ex-Commissioner Barbara Logan serving on Linfante's executive committee, and Rob Papke as her campaign manager, is there any wonder why she came out of the gate campaigning to bring shooters into Mt. Lebanon to massacre the deer.
Killed for a Tulip (Part 2)
You can learn a lot from observing the social dynamics of local politics and commissions. In 2005, the perception was that Mt. Lebanon was being run by an "elite" group of Mt. Lebanonites (from both parties), that felt that they could do as they pleased, resident voices of opposition (the peasants) were dismissed and ignored. These elite's sit on the boards of many charitable institutions in an effort to establish false respectability. Barbara Logan was a very powerful and influential member of the Mt. Lebanon Democrat Committee, holding fund-raisers, endorsing candidates, and serving on candidates executive committees, etc. This kind of power has a lot on influence over wannabe political candidates. The Mt. Lebanon managers, i.e. Steve Feller, Municipal Manager, Tom Kelley, Public Works Director, and Susan Fleming Morgans, PIO, etc., analyse the current power structure, and make alliances to protect their jobs. Newly elected commissioners quickly fall in line. If Commissioner Logan wants her deer killed, then the wagons circle, and Mt. Lebanon, by hook or by crook, is gonna kill some deer. So that's how the 2006/07 and 2007/08 (bait and shoot) deer cull was approved and moved forward.
That said, I'd like to give special recognition to Keith Mulvihill (RIP) who had the courage and good sense to oppose the peer pressure and groupthink, to stand alone in opposition to the deer cull in 2006.
This elitist bubble burst when Dan Miller (D) and Raja (R) were elected, both of whom were alpha dogs and were there to really analyze what was going on, and how Mt. Lebanon was spending its tax dollars. They were not step-in-line candidates, and they asked questions about everything. This was another interesting social dynamic occurrence to observe. The look on the faces of the managers was fear for their jobs. The total lack of questions by the Commissioners to the USDA Wildlife Services representatives (culling contractor) ended. The new Commissioners, to the shock of Craig Swope, (Supervisor, USDA Wildlife Services), asked a lot of questions about safety issues, which resulted in the culling program being canceled - no more blank checks. The managers attitudes toward residents changed to. They were no longer arrogant and dismissive, but regained their memory, in that the residents pay their salaries (very good salaries), and residents were now being treated respectfully. This was a good time for Mt. Lebanon and its residents.
Unfortunately, these good times were short lived, and the elitist grab for power and influence has returned, at least from the deer killing perspective. This was single-handedly accomplished by Commissioner Linfante's mission to reestablish the deer killing program annually, and turn Mt. Lebanon into a dangerous shooting gallery, from her first day in office. The political powers pulling her strings, have also influenced some of the other Commissioners as well. However, they learned their lesson, the public isn't going to accept armed men firing deadly weapons in their neighborhoods to protect tulips, so they did the old bait and switch, and made it about car-deer collisions, and everyone fell for it. So that's how we got to where we are today.
Mt. Lebanon identifies itself as a "Community with Character", and is recognized as one of the best communities with a nationally recognized school district to live in. Yet, the Commissioners just approved a misguided and dangerous plan to allow bow hunting, and the barbaric trap-and-bolt method of killing deer, to be carried out in our parks and residents yards, to protect tulips. This misguided, inhumane, and ineffective plan has been opposed by The Humane Society of the United States, and is certain to put another serious dent (artificial turf) into Mt. Lebanon's reputation for sensible, compassionate and forward-thinking public policy.
During the November 11, 2014 Commission Discussion Session, I walked out of the meeting when the gun toting game commission guy was going into detail about killing deer. I walked into the commission chambers and saw the former female commissioners in a huddle. Included in the group were Bonnie VanKirk and Barbara Logan. I told them that they were missing some great discussions about killing deer. The gals, minus Logan, left the room and went to the discussion. Barbara Logan stayed behind. I suggested that she go too since they were doing it for her. She ignored me.
Don't miss what Fake Lebo posted about this on Facebook.
Elaine
Elaine, your comment about witnessing the "former female commissioners", i.e. Barbara Logan and Bonnie VanKirk in a huddle in the commission chamber is just further proof of what's really going down here. This is all about deer eating the tulips of a few Lebo elitists, gardeners (who refuse to plant deer resistant flowers), and the garden tour (as per Logan's comments), and Commissioner Linfante is their hired gun, no pun intended, to bring shooters back in to Mt. Lebanon to kill the deer. Loved your comment to Logan.
PETA
URGE MT. LEBANON OFFICIALS TO DITCH CRUELTY TO DEER
The city of Mt. Lebanon, Pa., is reportedly considering bowhunting, coupled with a lethal trapping initiative, in an attempt to control local deer populations. Bowhunters often spend hours tracking the blood trails of wounded animals, and many victims are never found, eventually succumbing unseen to their injuries. And reports of wounded deer careening wildly onto busy roadways or crashing through residential windows are not uncommon. Trapping is also inhumane as every moment trapped is a terrifying eternity for these easily frightened prey animals, who can badly injure themselves in frantic attempts to get free. Lethal initiatives tear families apart, leaving young, weak animals vulnerable to starvation and dehydration. They also backfire because the resultant spike in the food supply accelerates breeding among survivors and newcomers. PETA apprised Mt. Lebanon officials of the futility, dangers, and cruelty of these approaches, but to no avail. Now it's your turn!
Please urge city officials to scrap bowhunting and lethal trapping in favor of humane control methods , then forward this alert widely!
Thank you for speaking up for wildlife!
Sincerely,
Kristin Simon
Cruelty Casework Associate Manager
CRUELTY INVESTIGATIONS DEPARTMENT
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals
This is just wrong. I a Pennsylvania hunter am sickened by this were do i sign up for pieceful protest its our right.If i find a pen i will not allow deer to enter ,That will one trap that won't work.
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