"Bendel said the township will begin looking for an interim replacement for Linfante, who is in favor of deer culling."Am I to take it that only those in favor of deer culling should apply? Those opposed to deer culling need not apply?
I had received this comment on March 17, 2015 through the blog.
Dear E Gillan,
Why have you not posted my wife's email in regards to the deercull? She even signed it. Was it because she is for the culling?
Regards,
Chuck Vietmeier | vietmeierchuck@gmail.com
I wrote back to say that I had not received anything from her. After all this time, she finally figured out how to submit a comment. She writes:
concerned citizen has left a new comment on your post " Consider the following":
Dear Ms. Gillen:
Is there anything about Mt. Lebanon that you do like? Your neighbors, your library, the school system, the public services, the volunteer efforts? This community has so many wonderful attributes and I am grateful that I grew up here and continue to reside here. I have not seen a pleasant comment anywhere on your blog about our community. Why do you stay here if you hate it so much? Moreover, your personal attacks on the commissioners are unprofessional and hateful. We have a democratic system and our volunteer officials were elected by the community to serve. If you disagree with their decisions, please run for office instead of resorting to personal attacks (e.g., "murderers", "liars", etc.) That type of conduct does no one any good. Best, Kirsten Rydstrom
ps. why are there so many "anonymous"comments instead of people standing behind their comments.
Posted by concerned citizen to Lebo Citizens at March 25, 2015 at 8:16 PM
Sorry, Kirsten, but I would never be selected to replace Kristen Linfante, since I am opposed to deer culling. I'm also opposed to artificial turf. I need not apply.
So residents of Ward 3: If you are for:
deer culling
artificial turf
reckless spending
keeping the Manager and PIO
Send your letters of interest and resumes to:
Mt. Lebanon Manager Stephen Feller
710 Washington Road
Pittsburgh, PA 15228
Mark your sealed envelope with “Commissioner Application.”
The deadline to apply is April 13, 2015 at 10 AM. Interviews begin on April 14, 2015, which is the next Commission meeting.
Mt. Lebanon commissioner steps down, citing health
72 comments:
I'd like to ask Kirsten why she is in favor of a cruel, barbaric and inhumane method of baiting, corralling and killing deer outside of hunting season. I would like to know why a more humane or non lethal method of controlling the deer population is so distasteful and not acceptable. I'd like those questions answere by the pro cull, pro kill, pro torture people.
Anyone who is pro kill, especially inhumane killing, without wanting to even consider non lethal means, is just as much a murderer as anyone doing the actual killing.
Comments from somebody in the bubble .. how dare anybody stir up trouble!!
"If you disagree with their decisions, please run for office instead of resorting to personal attacks (e.g., "murderers", "liars", etc.) That type of conduct does no one any good."
But Kirsten, Elaine did run for office and faced a number of personal attacks in doing so. That type of conduct does no one any good? Tell that to people in power or formerly in power who used personal attacks to come to power and influence people in the community. And Elaine has posted on a number of positive things (such as a commissioner cleaning up after a messy contractor) in the community. You probably just focused on the negative stuff because it grabs more attention. There has also been more negative than positive from our elected officials lately. Our government officials are the ones creating the news.
Yep, just opened our copy of the Almanac and there it is in black and white on page 3 - "Bendel said the township will begin looking for an interim replacement for Linfante, who is in favor of deer culling."
So is this how Bendel is putting the divisive atmosphere behind us?
There was an excellent comment madeunder the Lebocitizens post "Wildcat project drained us dry." They offered this advice for Bendel: "You don't get harmony when everybody sings the same note." ~Doug Floyd"
So Bendel wants everybody signing the same note once again... they just don't learn.
As for Ms. Rydstrom, I'd suggest perhaps you're not listening to those people that you've decided hate Mt. Lebanon.
Is it possible that you're only hearing what you want to hear? Maybe those people actually love Mt. Lebanon and are trying to keep it the community it once was.
Remember it was Linfante that arrived here and said "you have to build your own community!"
Using your logic Kirsten maybe we should have asked Linfante why did you move here if you didn't like the one that already existed.
This other Kirsten, lives in a the lebo bubble and how dare you tarnish their perfect word!! Elaine,, this woman lives in your Ward and has no idea that you ran for a Commission Seat several years ago...it shows you that people just pull their party lever and never stop to consider the other candidate.
Elaine - you stand behind your comments. Doesn't Kirsten see what she's doing to you and that why we are anonymous?
I always thought,, these prokill citizens.. should of be the ones pulling the trigger on the deer.. but unf i personally know some of these people and i know they would of enjoyed it.. the more deer to blast the better..
John Bendel wants to take a couple of months (cooling off) before the commission starts discussions of deer "management" again. Conveniently, that is after the Primary. Nice try. We won't forget, John.
Elaine
Me thinks Ms. Rydstrom is another lawyer preparing to apply for Linfante's chair. Pro-cull, beat up Elaine, love it or leave it mantra.
http://www.popcitymedia.com/innovationnews/reallebo0120.aspx
""I've found that you have to work a little harder to make your own community when you weren't born here," adds Linfante, a professional freelance violist who moved here when her husband took a seat with the Pittsburgh Symphony."
Kirsten, why don't you ask Kristen why she needed to make her "own" community. Didn't she like the one that was already here?
We're transplants and liked the community that existed.
I think it's just a poorly written sentence that switches from quoting Bendel about filling the vacancy to noting Linfante's stance on the deer cull halfway through. I didn't take the two as being related.
Isn't the the reporter just saying that Linfante is in favor of deer culling? The comma indicates that the trailing clause describes Linfante, who is in favor of deer culling.
4:35, agreed. If they can make the deer extinct, what will they enjoy killing next?
Why was that phrase, in favor of deer culling, even said or printed? What does her stance on deer culling have anything to do with the vacancy and submission of applications? Because they only want pro kill people. There is obviously such a strong, uncontrollable desire, maybe need, to slaughter innocent animals, just because they exist. It's against the law to murder people and deer are the next best thing for a thrill kill.
I'd agree with the 5:08s IF...
There wasn't such an emphasis on resuming a cull in some fashion or other in the fall.
Remember the one resident, Cori (?), that proclaimed in a TV interview that this wasn't over yet.
I agree that the phrase in favor of deer cling referred to KL. I believe it was placed there and in other news articles to scapegoat KL and redirect negative attention away from the other 3 procull commissioners. The procull commissioners can act as if they now have a "clean house" when actually Bendel and Brumfield are the dirtiest in the group.
5:08 wouldn't it be WAS in favor of deer culling? If it WAS about Linfante? She is no longer in power.
If Bendel et al want a shot at a "clean slate", best chance is to get rid of the town manager and blame him for the past debacles. Citizens shouldn't let him off the hook but I can't say it wouldn't be a step in the right direction...
I know the following comments do not apply to everyone using this blog, but it is the general sense and feeling I got from reading most of the posts and comments.
This blog is filled with accusations and assumptions that are based solely on emotions. Violations of the permit, anyone who isn’t anti-cull is a soulless murderer, collusion between commissioners, the contractor, the PGC, and oil and gas companies, deer being shot outside of corrals, and my favorite - the deer are just going to be dumped in landfills. You have absolutely no proof of any of this except your opinion that anyone who could kill a deer in this manner or support it in any way must be unethical. Take the landfill/meat processor/foodbank debate. Have you even considered that the processor asked not to be named, for the simple reason they didn’t want people disrupting their business. Instead many people on this blog think the more plausible explanation is that a consulting company who's being closely scrutinized by the PGC and public, who is getting paid per deer is going to egregiously violate their permit by throwing the deer (and their money) into a landfill. Try to look past your emotion. Does that really sound reasonable to you? I get that you are upset about the manner in which these deer are being killed. I don’t hunt and I don’t like killing things, but I have been in the conservation field for a long time and know that management is not always pleasant. Nobody is claiming this method is pleasant, or that they enjoy doing it, or that it is anything like hunting. To compare the two and say hunters are even against this is ridiculous.
It’s not your stance on this issue that bothers me. I think some of your concerns are valid. What bothers me is the vilification of anyone who is not anti-cull - commissioners, residents, business owners, consultants, the PGC, as if 1.) the average Mt Lebo citizen knows more about natural resource and deer management than individuals who have sometimes spent 40+ years in the field and 2.) as if the majority of you are any different. As humans, particularly ones living in an affluent neighborhood, we enjoy certain comforts (clothes, shoes, medicine, houses, being able to shop at a grocery store, cars, etc.) that to some degree all contribute to the suffering of animals. If you think that your chosen comforts are any different than someone choosing the comfort of a garden over an overpopulation of deer, you are blissfully or willfully ignorant. I’m guessing some of you eat meat. How is a cow being led into a stantion, a spike driven through its head, and hoisted up by a hook before it even stops moving any more humane? Look up the conditions and practices of a slaughterhouse, CAFOs, chicken, and pig farms. These animals are raised purely for human consumption sometimes in horrible conditions and given hormones that make them grow at disproportionate rates. In my opinion that is far more inhumane than what is happening in Mt Lebanon.
Deer, in too many numbers, are incredibly destructive and I don't mean to someone's tulips. Wildlife and natural resource management is just that, management for the benefit of all wildlife and natural resources not just the cute and pleasant to watch ones. It would be great if non-lethal methods were effective, but if you really read the scientific literature for and against your stance you would see that it’s often just as inhumane, more costly, and less effective. The science just isn’t there yet. Sure some studies support things like sterilization, but these are the exception. I could keep going, but I think you get the picture. Protest all you want, just stop with the smear campaign against people that you don’t even know. You guys are making the infamous, evil garden ladies look good.
630, some may say it's in poor taste to refer to someone who is experiencing a health crisis in the past tense.
Thank you, 7:06 PM. We WILL protest all we want.
As I said during Citizen Comments, I am not a vegetarian. I am against killing in our densely populated community called Mt. Lebanon.
I have been speaking against killing deer in Mt. Lebanon since 2006. Many times I was in the minority in the room, yet gave my name and address because I stand up for what I believe in. I sign my name to everything I write. You, 7:06 PM, are a gutless fool.
We know it was Kip's. Kip's was afraid of the hunters who would take their business elsewhere. We have plenty of proof. Where is your proof that the deer population is between 400-500 deer in some Lebo publications, while the estimate is between 400-600 deer in other Lebo publications. Susan Morgans did her own cull of 100 deer! That is very easy to do when you don't have documentation to back up your figures. I tend to use the aerial surveys, thank you very much.
Elaine
People who put down anonymous commenters are threatened by them.
This letter you received, Elaine is classic bait and ... um... well it is Lebo so I guess its bait and corral.
Kirstin, you are so warm hearted in suggesting that maybe if Elaine is unhappy she should move. Thanks for illustrating that you, too, have zero compassion for others.
Brilliant. ROTFLMYO, and I live in Boston.
7:06.. Slaugherhouses are not in people's back yards, especially backyards of high income residents..i work at the main psychiatric hospital in pittsburgh and 99% of therapists, social workers and docs were abhorred of Mt Lebanon's idea of a deer cull..
7:06, there is some truth in what you say, and I would agree with your initial accusation that the anti-cullers here have no proof of their claims. Tis true, I suppose but some of those claims are backed by some credible educated guesses with an eye to past performance.
The primary question and the catalyst for all that follows are the claims made by the PIO, the commissioners and the pro-cullers. WHERE IS THEIR PROOF, THEIR EVIDENCE THAT 400-500 or 400-600 deer exist in Mt. Lebanon?
What, do half eaten tulips substantiate their count? Accidents involving deer? Up until a few months ago there were only 4 deer related accidents with injuries in the past 4 years. Now we read hundreds occur and there rising exponentially.
Bendel asked us to put the divisiveness behind us, but it appears you're not going to have it.
Why don't you castigate the pro-cullers for their lack of proof? No it's just the anti-cullers that are the are the bad guys, right?
So we're now back to square one, anonymous neighbor against anonymous neighbor.
7:06 Is your name Benner?
Did anyone notice that the PIO said "the program was not a failure. It gave us a chance to see how the method would work."
I also seem to recall that Bendel said they would review what went right and what went wrong. My guess is that what went right is a VERY short list. But probably not in their eyes...
On the subject of making your own community. Is there anyone out there that has family in the community dating back prior to 1890?
Certainly not the rulers of this municipality!
There are several reasons I choose to remain anonymous, doesn't mean I'm a gutless fool. I said that my comments didn't apply to everyone on this blog, nor are they directed at any person in particular and some of the concerns are valid, one of which is the safety of citizens in a highly populated community.
I never said there are 400-600 deer in Mt. Lebanon, but even if you go with the most conservative aerial survey, there are still too many deer. I think I stressed in my post that my problem with the blog isn't your stance, it's the vilification of those that are pro-cull. In most cases it's not fair, it's not warranted, and I don't think it is helping your cause. At times it seems this blog is attacking the people more than it is addressing the issues. Just something to think about.
8:55, I know, out of sight, out of mind. that's why i used the terms blissfully or willfully ignorant.
In response to Ms. Rystrom's comment -- I'm one of Elaine's neighbors - we get along great. I don't believe she's ever said a negative thing about her neighbors on this blog or otherwise. She has called out excessive spending and animal cruelty In Mt Lebanon, but she's been cool about the neighbors. This isn't "Elaine v. Mt Lebanon" - she's not alone in her criticism, and if you actually spent 1 minute trying to listen to her, you'd realize she's not hateful either.
Elaine why would you think that Kips would lose business from hunters over processing deer that were culled? Thers no doubt in my mind that Kips will have all the deer they can handle next hunting season. If Kips was afraid of anything, it was having to deal with anti cull protestors.
7:06 - well stated. One of the few rational posts I've read here through all of this.
Mr Benner at 7:06 -
Your comment demonstrates several of the reasons why someone like you, who has been in "wildlife management" for 40 years, needs to engage with others outside of your field.
We, who do not practice wildlife management, know that community actions, such as killing PA's state animal in corrals placed in parks, is a damaging concept and practice for numerous reasons. You need to understand how it is harmful to a) cut residents off from their parks, b) expose children to the concept of municipally endorsed animal cruelty, c) engage in public animal cruelty for profit, and d) craft a plan that is logistically devoid of any attention to the scientific method or reasonable safety precautions (e.g., gun free school zones).
Furthermore, the idea of a "conflict of interest" appears to have no meaning to you -- thus, subjecting you to the scrutiny of professionals who actually do engage in ethical business practices.
Finally, I expect that the Wildlife Society of which you belong will eventually need to alter its policy regarding animal rights which states that "the philosophy of animal rights is incompatible with science-based conservation and management of wildlife".
White-tailed deer have been proven to be sentient creatures. Thus, corralling them and attempting, and yet failing to shoot them in the head, is animal cruelty.
If the Wildlife Society cannot come to grips with the scientific fact that animal cruelty is harmful to society as a whole, you and your colleagues, must not be scientists at all.
It's time you admit what you did was extremely cruel and never, ever, even remotely consider doing it again and furthermore, warn your "science-based" peers that corralling wildlife for slaughter is barbaric and wrong.
For those folks blaming Elaine, and the people opposed to the deer cull, it's all about the blame game. The 4 stooge Commissioners, Benner, et al, have to have a scapegoat. Elaine has tried her best to state and question local officials, Benner, et al, to answer to the community and give accurate information in regards to the deer issue. We have read misleading info from the commissioners, Benner, the PGC, and the Post Gazette. We live in a democracy. Everyone has a right to question, debate, and ask for the truth. Everyone has a right to want what is best for our community, with reasonable and just decisions without hidden politics or agendas.
This is a little off topic, but my impression from following this deer management story is that "sterilization" of wildlife is fairly novel although practiced in a few areas across the country.
But in studying a different topic, I learned that U.S. Fish and Wildlife sterilizes coyotes that have territories within red wolf habitat.
So... can somebody enlighten me as to how it is novel to sterilize deer if coyotes are routinely sterilized by the US Fish and Wildlife? What other wildlife are undergoing sterilization right now and under what conditions?
Also, why is it an "experiment" to sterilize white-tailed deer but baiting, corralling and shooting deer in the head is somehow NOT "experimental"?
This link highlights the sterilization but is focused on other topics.
https://www.southernenvironment.org/cases-and-projects/nc-coyote-rule-risks-endangered-red-wolves
10:17 PM, there were hunters who were protesting with us. They told us that what Benner was doing was so inhumane that the hunters were going to take their business elsewhere. Of course, Kip's will continue to process deer. Just like some have said they were not going to support Mt. Lebanon businesses, there were hunters who said they weren't going to support Kip's.
I guess the newspapers Photoshopped hunters in the protest photos. Talk about vilification, 7:06 PM.
Elaine
Hi 11:15. To my knowledge the corral and shoot method that Wildlife Specialists performed in Mt. Lebanon was indeed experimental. Two things made it experimental: 1) the PA Game Commission never allowed it or ever approved it anywhere in PA and 2) Wildlife Specialists never used this specific technique before. As a matter of fact, the Jager Pro gate system that Mr. Benner used for deer was actually designed for feral hogs, not deer. That right there made it experimental. Mr. Benner even had to make a personal phone call to ask how effective the Jager Pro system was on deer. I think he got some bad information and should ask for a refund from Jager.
Nick M.
7:06 pm Just a couple quick responses. (Part 1)
"This blog is filled with accusations and assumptions that are based solely on emotions."
Solely on emotions - RIGHT !!! We are just silly emotional residents who should have no safety concerns that strangers with AR-15 semi-automatic assault weapons are running around shooting in our neighborhoods and parks.
"I don’t hunt and I don’t like killing things, but I have been in the conservation field for a long time and know that management is not always pleasant."
If you don't hunt, then what do you do in the "conservation field"? The PA Game Commissions (PGC) have hijacked the term "conservation" for running a state sanctioned "blood sport" revenue generating killing business. So what is it that you do? What are your credentials?
"the average Mt Lebo citizen knows more about natural resource and deer management than individuals who have sometimes spent 40+ years in the field"
"In an interview a few years ago, Gary Alt described how he felt when he took the job as director of the PGC's deer management section. He looked at the history of deer mgt in the state and saw that every biologist who had ever suggested lowering the number of deer to a level more compatible with the amount of available habitat had been fired, transferred or quit. On the verge of offering similar advice of his own ... 'I thought, My God, I'm going to get killed.'...When Alt was traveling the state doing lectures for sportsmen, things were so hot that he was advised to wear a bulletproof vest and have an escape route planned for any hall he entered."
Are the PGC wildlife biologists that Gary Alt, PGC's dir. of Deer Mgt, describes above the experts you were referring to? These "experts" provide biased advice to keep their jobs. The PGC runs a deer killing business, and has a direct conflict of interest with the truth and non-lethal deer mgt solutions?
How about experts like Laura Simon, wildlife biologist, The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS), and wildlife scientists like Allen Rutberg P.h.D, Center for Animals and Public Policy, Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, Tufts University, and Jay Kirkpatrick, Ph.D., the Director of the Science and Conservation Center at Zoo Montana. What about these experts who agree with our position? Do they count?
In addition, I think you are underestimating Mt. Lebanon residents. A few of us have graduated from high school and even college. Some of us even have experience in wildlife biology, forestry, and environmental studies. In addition, we've been studying deer science and management issues for the last 10 years.
"If you think that your chosen comforts are any different than someone choosing the comfort of a garden over an overpopulation of deer, you are blissfully or willfully ignorant."
What does that have anything to do with residents who oppose hunting and shooting AR-15 assault weapons in their parks and neighborhoods. Gardeners don't have a right to subject their neighbors and their children to the dangers of hunting and AR-15 assault weapons to protect their tulips. They can have beautiful gardens by planting deer resistant flowers, using repellents, and deterrents. Or they can even put up a fence if they want to.
7:06 pm Just a couple quick responses. (Part 2)
"How is a cow being led into a stantion, a spike driven through its head, and hoisted up by a hook before it even stops moving any more humane?
Any more humane than what? Allowing 3 panicked deer in a trap for 90 minutes, and then shooting them 11 times to kill them? I think most humane experts and veterinarians would agree that's pretty inhumane. Again, residents don't what their parks and back yards turned into slaughterhouses, a private hunting club, or having men run around shooting AR-15 assault weapons in our neighborhoods. And they don't want their municipality using their tax dollars being charge with animal cruelty by The Humane Society of the United States.
"Deer, in too many numbers, are incredibly destructive and I don't mean to someone's tulips."
And this general statement is making what point? Wildlife "Specialists" had 6 corn bait stations, and 5 shooters with AR-15 assault rifles running around Mt. Lebanon, and could only find 6 deer to kill. That doesn't sound like an overpopulation of deer in Mt. Lebanon. In addition, there has never been any complaints about ecodamage in Mt. Lebanon parks, and there has never been an environmental impact study requested or done in Mt. Lebanon, so what is your point? When deer reach their biological carrying capacity their population stabilizes, i.e. births decrease, etc. to the food supply. So nature manages itself, and always has w/o man's intervention. It's actually the PGC's of the world that have artificially propagate the deer population for maximum sustained yield (MSY) to give hunters more targets to shoot at, that has caused population issues, and which has totally screwed up the male/female sex ratios, and the health of the species.
"Wildlife and natural resource management is just that, management for the benefit of all wildlife and natural resources not just the cute and pleasant to watch ones."
Right - give me a break! Our antiquated wildlife mgt system (GAME COMMISSION) is totally broken and does not manage wildlife for its benefit, but has totally screwed up most species that it has managed. And the only species it seem to care to mgt are the species that hunters want to hunt for trophies. All other species are ignored. For example, The PGC spends more than 40% of its $80 million budget on wildlife habitat improvements for game species, i.e. to increase the population for its hunter constituents, and only 2.87% of their budget is directed toward non-game species. I think that fact demonstrates the PGC's priorities, and their inaction to benefit all wildlife.
7:06 pm Just a couple quick responses. (Part 3)
"It would be great if non-lethal methods were effective, but if you really read the scientific literature for and against your stance you would see that it’s often just as inhumane, more costly, and less effective. The science just isn’t there yet."
Talk about willful ignorance!!! It's you who better read the scientific literature. PZP and GonaCon deer contracepton products work. That's a scientific FACT! PZP immunocontraception has been used successfully for over 30 years, and there are very successful deer studies that are published in peer reviewed scientific journals showing its proven success.
"Suburban deer populations have been stabilized and reduced over time by 35-50%. The most dramatic reduction so far has occurred where use of one-treatment PZP vaccines has been associated with a population reduction of 44% in five years." Dr. Allen Rutberg, Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy
Successful sterilization projects have been carried out in Milwaukee WI, Highland Park IL, The Villages of San Jose CA, and are in process in Monkton, MD, Bethesda MD, and Fairfax City VA.
"The good news with sterilization is that it does appear to be working. We are still assessing immigration rates, but are seeing declines of up to 30% in the communities where it is taking place." Tony DeNicola, Ph.D., White Buffalo.
At the Mt. Lebanon Deer Forum, DeNicola said that communities should expect a 10 to 20% annual decline in the deer population.
Yes, I'm sure 7:06 pm is right. Our opposition to turning our parks and neighborhoods into a private hunting preserve, a dangerous shooting gallery, and an inhumane slaughter house is silly and based solely on emotions. We have no grasp of the facts.
For the record, I am anti-cull. That said, people need to learn how to read a sentence properly.
Look at this quote very carefully. "Bendel said the township will begin looking for an interim replacement for Linfante, who is in favor of deer culling."
There is a comma after Linfante. That comma indicates that the text following is referring to Ms. Linfante.
Trust me, I am far from a fan of hers, but when I see something like this being misunderstood, I have to flag it. Also, the passage in question was not a direct quote from Bendel. The author, unfortunately, phrased it in a way that could be easily misunderstood.
Some interesting information from our "official" news source.
"In 2014, the police department responded to 216 reportable crashes—crashes that either resulted in injuries or rendered a vehicle undriveable—103 non-reportable crashes, 96 hit-and-runs, 11 pedestrian-involved crashes, and 21 caused by drivers under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Of the 201 reportable crashes in 2013, 90 resulted in injuries. There was one fatality, a man who failed to negotiate a turn, drove off the road and hit a telephone pole in the 1300 block of Washington Road, not too far from the January 31 crash. Speed and driving under the influence (DUI) were both contributing factors to the fatal crash. Even though DUI arrests increased 35 percent in 2014 (118 arrests), DUI crashes also increased, from eight to 21."
Hmmm, DUI arrests went up by 35%, DUI crashes went from 8 to 21 and we're focused on reducing deer crashes by 50% over 5 years.
Really?
The number of people killed or seriously injured in deer-related crashes were constantly used to justify the corral and kill.
How come the number of people killed or injured by drunk drivers was never mentioned?
10:22, Again with the assumptions. No I'm not Mr. Benner and I'm not even 40 years old let alone have been in the wildlife management business for 40 years.
I don't understand the conflict of interest. This is what a consultant does. They advise on appropriate actions and often provide those services. You are assuming that they are advising on the option that brings them the most monetary gain. Not saying that doesn't happen, but Wildlife Specialists and the PGC recommended sharpshooting as well as a comprehensive management plan with other options. The commissioners chose trap and cull in regards to public safety and to address the immediate issue. Where is the conflict of interest?
I agree deer are sentient beings, so are mice, rats, snakes, cows, pigs, chickens, frogs, spiders, flies, and mosquitoes. They all have senses in differing complexity.
Your comments in regards to the Wildlife Society show you don't really understand the principles governing conservation and management of a healthy ecosystem or the ecological interactions between wildlife, their environment, and the impact that people have on those interactions. You also have no idea what the Wildlife Society does for the conservation and protection of wildlife.
Elaine, to clarify, i didn't mean to suggest that there weren't anti-cull hunters or hunters involved in protests, i meant that to compare trap and cull to hunting makes no sense and to use the phrase, even hunters are against this is misleading. Some hunters are, some aren't.
3:40, Fair enough I don't dispute some of your statements, however
1. I never said the concerns are based on emotions, i said the assumptions and accusations are based on emotions.
2. I don't work for the PGC but I am a biologist.
3. Doesn't the fact that Gary Alt continued with the PGC for many years suggest that their stance has changed over the past couple decades to encompass a more holistic approach that's not based as much on game species management.
4. I'm not discounting other experts opinions. They absolutely count, but there are many opinions and that's why I encourage a look at all the literature. I'm not underestimating Mt. Lebanon residents. I am sure there are some that a very knowledgeable about the subject.
5. and 6. My comments on chosen comforts is a direct result of pro-cull residents being called, killers, murderers, psycopaths, selfish, and a number of other terms. In my opinion, if that is true of the pro-cullers, it's true of pretty much everyone.
7.There were several issues with the set up, management, and timing, with the corral traps, not denying that, but the efficacy doesn't mean there isn't an overpopulation of deer. Aerial surveys suggest there are.
You can't separate humans from nature. They are a part of it and sometimes wild populations actually aren't very good at managing themselves in the midst of human interactions and extraordinary conditions (i.e. a suburban community).
8. You might be right about the PGC, but what about the DCNR, the Nature Conservancy, the Western Pennsylvania Conservancy, the Heritage Conservancy
9. PZP is a pesticide and GonaCon is a hormone. PZP isn't even approved by the FDA, and it means introducing yet again chemicals to the environment with unknown consequences. Hence why I said the science isn't there yet. Plus, this and sterilization have mostly been used in closed populations. It is not until the last couple of years that it is really being utilized in open populations, so the efficacy is yet to be determined. Plus it doesn't address immediate concerns, and I would argue, if used, should be part of a comprehensive management plan.
Again I think your concerns are valid and not based solely on emotions.
8:56 am. I recall reading last year that funding for DUI enforcement for our Mt Lebanon Police Department was down. When a local officer commented on this issue, he blamed the Department of Transportation instead of the municipality for the lack of funding.
However, the police department also stated repeatedly that they were/are lacking an officer in the traffic enforcement division.
http://triblive.com/news/allegheny/6376814-74/million-police-checkpoints#axzz3VbGumey2
The PGC, DCNR, the Nature Conservancy, the Western Pennsylvania Conservancy, the Heritage Conservancy, the Wildlife Society and the Heinz Endowments (via grant funding) have all contributed to vilifying deer and their impact on birds and the ecosystem. While they are informed groups, none of them have promoted non-lethal methods of managing white-tailed deer.
I have been a longstanding member of the Audubon Society nationally and locally and also contributed financially to the Western PA Conservancy over many years.
However, until all of these organizations promote non-lethal methods of managing white-tailed deer, especially in suburban communities that are densely populated, I'm dropping my memberships.
11:05 you write aerial surveys suggest there is an overpopulation of deer in Mt. Lebanon.
Q: The 2014 aerial survey showed a derr population drop of 42% from the 2013 survey. We didn't cull, we may have been culling by vehicle, but the accident reports don't seem to support that assumption.
The big question for you, and I'm asking as nicely as possible, is what is the optimum number of deer we should have in Mt. Lebanon? Zero? Ten? One hundred?
Please give us a number and then explain how you reach that conclusion.
This is a simple assignment that even a sophomore in high school should be able to write a coherent paper on.
So please, before we can find a solution we need to know where the goal line is, I think.
11:29 isn't it curious that if the police are down an officer in traffic enforcement how were they able to stake out the corrals and send two patrol cars an 3 officers to intimidate 3 dog walkers?
Something doesn't add up.
12:04, so you trust the 2014 survey and believe that 54% (106 out of 196) of Lebo deer were hit by cars last year?
I am a confused by the dead deer from Lebo numbers. Didn't the Post Gazette report that around 100 dead deer were collected from Mt Lebanon last year? How many of the reportable versus non reportable crashes involved deer?
11:05 AM Response
3. Gary Alt. No, he did try to instill new thinking and correct the PCG's total mismanagement of the deer population, but within the framework of a totally misguided and antiquated system. As I understand, he retired out of frustration, and the PGC is back to the old status quo.
7. Overpopulation. All the excuses of the set up, mgt. and timing with the corral traps are just excuses. If you put out 6 corn bated sites, and only a few deer show up, that is direct evidence of the deer population in the area. And this evidence does not demonstrate a deer "overpopulation".
The most recent aerial survey counted 193 deer, and many of those deer counted were in adjacent communities. In addition, an aerial survey is just a snapshot of deer in Mt. Lebanon at a specific point in time. It doesn't show the number of resident deer in a community. Many of the deer counted traveled to Mt. Lebanon to feast on the smorgasbord of flowers and plants that are irresistible to deer that are planted in its 30+ flower islands, and that residents grow in their yards. It's this abundant food resource that is the major attractant drawing deer to come into Mt. Lebanon to browse.
Saying that there is an "overpopulation" of deer is not an accurate or credible statement. There are no scientific studies that have determined what number of deer different suburban communities and environments can support, i.e. all scenarios are different. In addition, when you say "overpopulation" I'm assuming that you mean in terms of biological carrying capacity. There is a big difference between biological carrying capacity and social carrying capacity. For example, Mt. Lebanon gardener's think ONE deer is an overpopulation of deer.
This issue was disccused at length at Mt. Lebanon's Deer Forum, and both Jeannine Fleegle, the PGC's wildlife biologist, and Laura Simon, HSUS' wildlife biologist, fully agreed on this issue.
9. Deer contraception and sterilization
With all due respect, you really need to read and study the scientific literature on deer contraception and sterilization; i.e. your statements demonstrate little current knowledge in this area.
The FDA does not oversee deer contraception any more. It hasn't for 7+ years now. Deer contraception comes under the umbrella of the EPA.
This Humane Society article below addresses your concerns about safety.
Is PZP Safe? Immunocontraceptive Vaccines and Their Regulation
http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/wildlife_overpopulation/facts/is_pzp_safe.html
You said that deer contraception and sterilization have mostly been used in closed populations. That statement is very misleading. Deer contraception vaccines and sterilization are designed to be used in urban and suburban environments where hunting and culling just aren't feasible or safe. These urban/suburban environments are pretty much closed populations, i.e. they are closed in by development, roads, and urban sprawl. That's where these non-lethal deer population management methods are designed to be used. These methods are not designed for the free range deer populations in the public hunting grounds in Potter County.
Hey folks, quit being drawn into the false premise that this is about car-deer collisions. This is all about deer eating the tulips of a handful of wealthy and entitled country-club set ladies who refuse to plant deer resistant flowers.
Car-deer collisions with injury are less than 2% of all annual car collisions with injuries in Mt. Lebanon since they started tracking collisions. Mt. Lebanon reports car-deer collisions using the same criteria as Allegheny County. A reportable car-deer collision is one in which someone is injured or one or more vehicles cannot be driven from the scene. The Mt. Lebanon police reported (1) car-deer collision in 2011 (tracked since Sept.), (5) in 2012, (2) in 2013, and (4) in 2014. So why is Mt. Lebanon so obsessed with reducing the cause of less than 2% of the car collisions with injuries instead of focusing on reducing the 98% of car collisions with injury?
As I understand, the other number that the police track are the dead deer that they believe might be related to car-deer collisions, i.e. dead deer found on the side of the road or in someone's yard. At the Mt. Lebo Deer Forum, I believe Lt. Lauth reported 40 in 2012, 43 in 2013, and a total of 15 through August of 2014. Lt. Lauth said that these numbers have been very consistant since they started tracking them.
Rochester Hills Michigan decreased car-deer collisions by 25% through a resident education program, and the strategic placement of deer warning signs - this program costs $5,000. Why doesn't Mt. Lebanon implement a similar program?
5:07 - You are correct in the fact that this deer thing is about gardens but wow: you say in 2014, 15 dead deer in yards, 4 dead deer on the streets... there are over 80 deer unaccounted for that have been reported in dead in Mt Lebanon by Animal Control. What the heck? There were approximately 300 dead deer picked up in the entire South Hills and 1/3 in Mt Lebanon. So what is killing all of these deer that have to be picked up by Animal Control?
SMH I guess it doesn't matter but man, I can't believe anything I read anymore. Why bother reading...
Counting Deer Wrong Thinking
Focusing on deer surveys and counting the number of deer in Mt. Lebanon at one specific moment in time is the absolute wrong focus and thinking for implementing a successful deer conflict resolution plan.
In a letter to the Commissioners Laura Simon wrote:
"I caution Mount Lebanon town leaders against setting unnaturally low deer density goals such as 3-5 deer per square mile. Unless the town is willing to take unprecedented measures to drastically reduce deer habitat (suburbia provides prime deer habitat), the end result will be that the deer rebound quickly and exhibit extremely high reproductive rates and high survival, as the rich food resource and lowered deer density will trigger a ―boom in fawning. In addition, areas like Mount Lebanon are surrounded by communities with deer ---thus any voids created by hunting or culling will be re-filled, in part, by immigrating deer.
[The USDA Wildlife Services set up a ridiculous deer per sq. mile objective. I think it was 2-3 or 3-5 deer per sq. mile to guarantee themselves an anual killing contract. So now any deer over that number is a trigger the pro-kill admin. uses to justify a killing program.]
All told, setting a goal of 3-5 deer per square, or even a 20+ deer per square mile, is impractical. Somehow, we keep hearing communities state that having ―20-30 deer per square mile is ideal, but this mystical number seems to have no basis -- but is often repeated. Every habitat is unique, there’s no universal deer population number that will answer all concerns for all communities.
We encourage Mt. Lebanon’s leadership to not focus so much on the absolute number of deer desired, but rather, think in terms of what human-deer impacts need to be addressed, and direct intervention measures at the specific problem sources. Trying to keep deer at a certain number can be a futile, resource-draining battle, and diverts attention from practical solutions which can help people reduce both deer presence and browsing on their properties."
If Mt. Lebo would have listened to the advice given by Laura Simon, HSUS' wildlife biologist, and launched a community wide campaign to ask residents to utilize deer-resistant gardening strategies, holding seminars to educate residents on deer-proofing their yards, planting deer resistant flowers in the 30+ flower islands, and implementing successful collision reduction strategies already in operation elsewhere, they would have implemented a successful deer conflict resolution plan years ago.
We need to change this group think focus from counting the number of deer to implementing effective deer conflict resolution strategies.
5:07, I agree, and Mt. Lebanon could start a strategic program by putting those 12 brand new deer crossings signs they have sitting in storage at the public works building to use on our roadways. A lot of good they're doing at this moment collecting dust.
Nick M.
5:07, not doubting your numbers, 4 car/deer collisions in 2014 but one of the papers reported the following recently.
""Mt. Lebanon police Deputy Chief Aaron Lauth said that in 2014, South Hills Cooperative Animal Control picked up 316 deer apparently struck and killed by vehicles in the 12 South Hills communities they cover, including 106 in Mt. Lebanon.""
There's a huge difference between 4 and 106.
Plus didn't say they cancelled the cull due to warm weather? It's going to be in the teens tonight around freezing for Saturday and it's snowing.
Elaine, the unintelligent response to any situation "why don't you move"....
"12:04, so you trust the 2014 survey and believe that 54% (106 out of 196) of Lebo deer were hit by cars last year?
March 27, 2015 at 2:18 PM"
No 2:18 I don't trust that 106 deer out of 196 were hit by cars last year.
Read The comment by 5:07 that reads - "As I understand, the other number that the police track are the dead deer that they believe might be related to car-deer collisions, i.e. dead deer found on the side of the road or in someone's yard. At the Mt. Lebo Deer Forum, I believe Lt. Lauth reported 40 in 2012, 43 in 2013, and a total of 15 through August of 2014. Lt. Lauth said that these numbers have been very consistant since they started tracking them."
The police aren't the agency that picks up dead deer; SHCAC does and they are the ones reporting the 106 figure. But you're gonna believe what you're gonna believe...
If the 106 number is how many deer were hit by vehicles in 2014 that would equate to 1 deer being hit by a vehicle every 3.44 days which I find very hard to believe. If that were the case then I would doubt if there would be 12 deer crossing signs at the public works building and that we would see more signs on the state and county roads.
Nick M.
5:07 pm correction
I believe that should have been a total of 15 deer through June 10 2014, the day of the Deer Forum, not through August, which sounds about right compared to the 40 in 2012 and the 43 in 2013. I'm going by the notes I took during the Deer Forum.
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments.
A word of caution about all of these unsubstantiated numbers falling out of the sky. Can these numbers be verified and trusted? We all know that the Lebo administration cannot be trusted and spins just about everything it puts out, and that the police chief was proactively involved in trying to justify these deer killing programs. For example, the deer incident report (woman reports seeing a deer) is nothing more than a propaganda tool used by the admin. to influence public buy-in to support a deer killing program. I no longer trust deer related numbers coming out of the admin. or the police dept.
Once a municipality (not just Mt. Lebanon) decides to move forward with a controversial deer killing program or any other type of controversial program, they never admit mistakes, and will do anything to justify their actions, including manipulating numbers to make a program look successful or to cover-up their mistakes. And the newspapers and other institutions no longer do their jobs to uncover the truth. Today's reporters are just spoon fed by PIOs to write their articles, and never challenge anything that is said. Investigative news is dead. So after watching Mt. Lebanon spin the truth so often, I've become a big skeptic of other municipalities that have implemented deer killing programs and the reports that they present to the public.
I don't know anything about this south hills animal control firm, how they are compensated, and what auditing controls they have in place to verify the accuracy of their reports.
8:39, how does SHCAC know where to pick up the dead deer.
I can honestly say they wouldn't come to my mind if I saw a dead deer in the road or on my lawn.
I'd probably notify the police dept. first.
Also I doubt SHCAC logs deer/vehicle accidents, their responsibility being animal control. Besides people wanting to turn in an accident claim to their insurance company would need an accident report from the police to submit with the claim.
So you're gonna believe who you want to believe as well.
8:39, the PIO reports... ""In 2014, the police department responded to 216 reportable crashes—crashes that either resulted in injuries or rendered a vehicle undriveable—103 non-reportable crashes,..."
Are you trying to convince us that 33% of the accidents in MTL are deer related?
In our circle of friends and neighborhood I haven't heard of anyone getting into an accident with a MTL deer in 2014. Some stories of close calls but no one has said they or someone the know hit a deer in the past year.
I guess we all believe what we want to believe, right?
I think that was just a poorly written sentence. The writer was point out that Ms. Linfante was pro-cull, not that Bendel was only going to vote for a replacement that was pro-cull.
Again, because of the way it was written, it could be interpreted both ways. But I give a 75% probability to my interpretation.
"But I give a 75% probability to my interpretation." Much like our methodology for counting deer in Mt. Lebanon.
Elaine
12:21 AM, all my attempts to get the 8/20/14 incident removed from the report were unsuccessful. It is a false report. Now, the numbers include incidents of feeding deer on the deer incident report. Puleeze.
Elaine
Hi Elaine, I saw that too and almost fell off my chair. With the ever so growing amount of vehicle accidents, DUI's and the growing problem we face with increased drug usage, it baffles me that someone feels that it's more important to use our police resources to report their neighbors for feeding deer. Gee, I wonder how many officers showed up on Twin Hills Drive that day.
Nick M.
Gary Alt left PA due to program interference from politicians, not fellow biologists. He is one of the premier wildlife biologist in the country and now works for the state of Wisconsin where he is implementing the same programs that he did in PA. The PGC wildlife biologists recognize that we have too many deer in our ecosystem & they negatively impact other species by their overpopulation. They are working towards reducing them to acceptable numbers, but are being overruled by politicians in many of their decisions.
4:39 PM - The fact that you think deer are contained by roads & developments shows your lack of understanding of these animals. They cross roads, jump fences, swim rivers and lakes. They go where they want to go. They are not contained in any way, but are free to roam wherever they want to.
Linfante did try to do some good things for us.. for example she questioned the no left turn signs near the intersection of Terrace and Woodland..especially coming off of Conner,, it forces all the traffic on to Woodland which has no sidewalks..but after a traffic study which concluded there was no safety issue the Terrace people were able to keep their no left turn sign.. i appreciated her efforts for my walking elementary kids..
12;42 never trust a Lebo traffic study. They come from the traffic engineering version of Benner. The proof is in the $$$
Why the no turns at the intersection of Terrace and Woodland? Is it a big cut through? I live on N Meadowcroft and we now have a stop sign on always every intersection..
Always wondering if they will increase traffic cull on Orchard and Jefferson Drs. eventually.
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