With eleven hours left to vote, 25% have more money than ever. Forty percent are feeling the pinch but will be OK if nothing changes. One third of us are drowning. DROWNING. So which group is calling the shots here in Mt. Lebanon? I believe it is the first group.
I have decided to write about this poll in the final hours since the original bid opening was to be held in three hours from now.
Since I am discussing incomes, if anyone wishes to comment on this post, I will take anonymous comments. Just be civil.
59 comments:
Our income dropped $37,000 from two years ago, plus and additional $20,000 we used to receive in bonuses. Christmas will be very different for my kids this year, and non existent for the adults. On one hand, back to the basics is a very good lesson for my children, but going further into debt just to give them some Christmas is heartbreaking.
Imagine going through a divorce, being a stay at home mom, needing to get a job, ex lost his job and could only get a job paying far less. We will lose our home and I can't afford to keep my kids in the same school district. Many tears. The high school means nothing to me, my kids won't see it. More tears.
I can't even afford the membership fees to the two PTA's my kids belong to. Or nice clothing for the chorus concert for my son. They insist on dress shoes, but I can't afford them. bring that grade down on notch.
At various times in our marriage, we would have been able to select all three answers. Now we are in the third group. "Life comes at you fast."
That first group doesn't a damn about the other two groups, so long as they're happy!
This is the time of year when my mailbox is filled with charities asking for donations. Even the college that my kid goes to is asking for donations. It is a sobering experience when you realize that money is so tight that you can't help others because you can barely make it yourself.
I love how Social Security thinks you have to be 60 years old to be a widow.
My hope is that the bids come back too high again. I think that will buy people more time to get back on their feet. I am sure there are many more stories out there like the ones submitted here.
Elaine
Oh, forgot to add... to the first 25% that don't give a damn about the others. Hope you're never in the position of that other 75%!
Merry Christmas!
Be sure, when available, to review the full details for Lebo in the 2010 U.S. Census for the number and % of households & families below the indicated poverty line...and compare it to 2000 & 1990 Census results. The same for income classifications below $50,000/year in 2010, say $40,000 in 2000 and perhaps $30,000 in 1990.
Bill Lewis
If we attracted more people to the community who were in the first group by having first class education, services and facilities, wouldn’t we be a better community in the long run?
And once we weed out those in the third group, we would be even better. Just keep raising taxes and charging more fees, and we'll be fine.
Elaine
Be careful with that broad brush, folks. Our local policymakers may have made decisions that seem insensitive to those in our community who are hurting, but that doesn't mean that everyone who isn't hurting supports those policies or "doesn't give a damn" about others. There are many people in the first group in Elaine's poll who have been raising concerns about those very same policies, and doing so side by side with people in the third group.
Does anyone have a better idea on how to repair the high school, fix our streets and aging infrastructure, provide the services that attracted us to Lebo in the first place, maintain huge full time police and fire depts, and still throw an occasional parade? If it's not through increased taxes and fees, how do we generate the cash? If it's through cuts, what do we cut? No one seems to ever want to cut.
If we reduce the school project down to the $75 million that many people supported, my overall Lebo tax bill is still going to continue to go up. Further, that reduction in spending alone won't drastically increase my take home pay to the point where all of my problems will go away. And it certainly won't help my neighbor find a job.
How does Mt. Lebanon stay Mt. Lebanon without it costing us all a bit more each year?
Perhaps, the members of the first group got to be in the first group by being fiscally responsible, rather than being of the more money than brains mindset.
Elaine
I'm wondering if the anonymous poster on "December 7, 2011 3:31 PM" has any idea of what is going on in Greece, Italy and the US Post Office?
They write: "If we reduce the school project down to the $75 million that many people supported, my overall Lebo tax bill is still going to continue to go up. Further, that reduction in spending alone won't drastically increase my take home pay to the point where all of my problems will go away. And it certainly won't help my neighbor find a job."
How sad that there are such myopic people that think like this commenter. You're so wrong... it may indeed help your neighbor find a job, especially if a business chooses to stay in and/or expand their operations in Mt. Lebanon because higher taxes didn't scare them out. It might protect some teacher's job too or did you miss the conversation about the school district's potential budget cuts?
More importantly, it may help those poor souls that lost a job hang on until one does come up.
ANd Tom you're right - you can't paint everybody with a broad brush!
Times are tough for sure. Our income certainly has suffered over the last few years. But didn't this community do a big reno to some of the school buildings during the Great Depression? Why made them be able do it then and we can't do it now?
I also believe some people are misinterpreting this raw data from Elaine's poll. Just because someone is in the first group, certainly doesn't mean they don't give a damn about the other groups. That question was never posed, so don't make assumptions.
Again, how myopic! Sure MTL built schools during the depression... pretty simple, if it was a good idea then, it should work today too!
Tell me, how much room was available for home and tax base expansion, then vs. today? Sunset Hills, Mission Hills and the newer end of Virginia Manor weren't even glimmers in developer's eyes.
We didn't have much competition from USC and it took nearly an hour to travel to Cranberry.
You know, its not my problem that PSERs is broke, wasn't my poor planning, not my problem. A couple of points reduced in the millage rate won't drastically put teachers on the street! ;-)
Anon 6:21, what you call myopic I think most would call realistic.
The tax per household on a $75MM job vs a $95MM job is in many respects negligible and certainly won't be the difference between someone keeping or losing their home. Do you have suggestions on what to cut to really make a difference?
Also, don't make the assumption that because people don't want to spend more than say $75 million (where'd that limit come from any how? How about investing in a well planned building, whatever the cost [see lebodesign.net]) on the high school they're not interested in keeping Mt. Lebanon... Mt. Lebanon. ;-)
EVERYONE---and that means officials, too---in Mt. Lebanon needs to accept that this is a century-old community. Thus, comparing ML to developing areas like USC, Peters and South Fayette is sheer folly. We simply don't have the same amount of acreage or growing room.
That being said, we have some charm and convenience that they don't have. But, we need to get creative.
I don't know whether we really need all of the recreational space that has been proposed, but I do know that there are ways to get it besides ripping out the few wooded and natural areas we have left.
For example, grants are available to tear down structures in disrepair. Maybe we should look at demolishing some less than desirable properties for open space. They could become welcome oases for all ages.
I also think we need to get out of this mindset that no schools can ever be closed. The fact is that buildings are expensive to maintain and operate. We have some schools near commercial zones that could easily be turned into professional buildings or even indoor shopping centers. Another option is to tear one or two down for more open space.
Also, our leaders must stop making stupid purchases like the $1 million Twin Hills Park, most of which lies in Scott. This is a flood disaster site just waiting to happen.
Lastly, many people in this town have taken pay cuts, lost jobs or are merely holding steady. The existing mindset that all school and municipal employees are entitled to raises every year has got to go.
I proposed that a committee of citizens and some school and municipal officials be set up to brainstorm.
$75mm came from the petition that has been described by this blog and others as the position of the "majority"
Anon 7:56, can you suggest a building in disrepair to be razed for field space?
"Anon 6:21, what you call myopic I think most would call realistic."
REALLY... realistic?
2012 Mt. Lebanon looks like 1928 Mt. Lebanon?
Tell me, how many tifs were granted to develop Greenhurst, Mission Hills, Sunset Hills, Virginia Manor. Kaufmanns (now Galleria)? The Cyclops building? Rolliers?
Or yeah, development of the properties at Washington & Bower Hill and Mt. Lebanon & Castle Shannon Blvds. is just moving at a feverish pace! ;-)
Hey myopic... what were the projections and forecast for student enrollment in 1928?
What are they now?
We are doing seven buildings today. We are destroying our newest high school building and replacing it. In the Depression we did one or two buildings.
And don't forget Anon 7:58 PM that there was a group who... defined themselves as the majority... that wanted to build a $150 million high school. I think they called themselves BOSN!
Anon 7:56 raises some interestings ideas.
Gee, maybe if the post office closes the Castle Shannon Blvd. station we could develop that area between the Ivy Inn and the drugstore. Think about it... close to the EMS for athletic injuries and mom and dad can have a cold one at the Ivy while the kids play!!!
How good can life get!
Anon 7:50 You sound like one of those who said it will be $18 a month more.
Where did $95 million come from? We would have been opening bids today except they are either coming in too high or there is a shortage of bidders, hence the extension.
You are forgetting that we don't have enough to pay teachers, PSERS, and are having discussions about closing schools. We are dealing with state cutbacks. Where have you been?
Don't forget the physical therapy joint down the street, Anon. 8:21
Elaine
Hope you're referring to the first 7:50 post.
To try an answer on where the first 7:50 poster has been... I'd suppose they're stuck in 1928.
Forgot about the therapy office. Perfect spot for an athletic complex.
Don't forget the kids can also walk to Wendy's for Frosty's to fulfill that mandatory after game snack.
In response to Anonymous 8:04, Anon 7:56 does not know specifically of any buildings/homes on the demolition list, but the municipality's codes office should be aware of structures with significant problems.
There are other ways additional properties could be acquired, too, such as owner death or catastrophes like fires (doesn't sound pretty, I know). Also, sometimes people who are moving away will donate properties/lands if they know the municipality has a need and is interested.
To Anon 8:21, your idea for the post office is the kind of creative thinking I'm talking about! That whole section of Castle Shannon Blvd. could see a big revival! Way to go!
The $75 million petition amount was derived from information by a knowledgeable engineer and architect who were both familiar with the facility and thought that a quality and functional project could indeed be achieved for around $75 Million without “breaking the bank” as the current budget will.
That, in addition to the fact that the school district prematurely issued the first round of a bonds for $69 million (add the debt service and the total comes to $75 Million) without EVER establishing a project budget was another logical reason to put on the brakes at the $75 Million. “Hey, let’s just go incur all the debt we can so we can get deeper into debt later without breaking the rules!” Would you give your children endless supplies of money if they didn’t manage the first round properly? To this day the “budget” continues to be whatever the district can squeeze out of the taxpayers without giving them an opportunity to have a say a.k.a. “referendum”.
Now, add in that the current budget limit cost (at $113 Million and lots of change) per student far outweighs the average cost per student of other surrounding area districts’ high school renovation projects and you will see that the $75 Million amount was also an effort to keep in line with what the cost per student should really be.
Oh, but it’s all too logical! Certainly the $75 Million was just pulled out of the air…and don’t forget, the first round of the school district tax increases last year at 10.5 % was for that first round of debt that has been sitting in the coffers and for which we are already paying.
So I will ask the question again. What should we cut?
Here's your answer, call back the CAC, have them design the project and cut the SPENDING.
Anon 9:58- are you the same person as Anon 3:31? If so, you are asking where to cut and we are saying to cut back on the high school project.
Elaine
To what number Elaine? $75 million? Is that enough? I've been told that it's what 4000 people wanted. Is it now too much? If so, puck a number. And then what about the sewers, roads, infrastructure?
Poll is now closed. 27% have more money than ever. 37% will be OK if nothing changes and 35% are drowning.
If anyone is going to directly ask me a question, I would like to know who you are. This is anonymous If it pertains to income.
Elaine
For the last year or so, this blog has suggested that we should follow the lead of the 4000 who signed the $75mm petition. If we do so, will that make everything okay? I don't think so from what I'm reading. So what else should be cut?
Did any of the previous 33 anon comments have to do with income?
Uh, none of the other commenters were asking me a question. I like to know who I am talking with. Sorry. I shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition.
Elaine
Anon 10:35 – Everything will NOT be OK, but they will be better than shooting the wad on one high school renovation. The school needs renovating, but the district has wasted our money on a poorly conceived project. Those wasted resources could have been used on some other things around here, not to mention that the district should not spend any more money than we already have. The mentality reminds me of people who plan to file bankruptcy so they go crazy with the credit cards.
Anon 10:56, do you think spending $75mm will help 11:11am and 11:14am? Why doesn't anyone want to cut anything other than the school project? It's not that simple.
Regarding feeling the pinch, my medical insurance copays keep going up and so do the deductibles. For the family, we are averaging $368/month on just those supplemental expenses. I guess we are lucky to have health insurance though, not to complain considering that others don't. My family member was recently rejected from all rehab centers in the area because the cost of their IV antibiotics were too high. It took incredible navigating to get them accepted right before being discharged from the hospital. Cost consciousness is everywhere today, particularly on the part of our health care providers. (Well, almost everywhere...)
Hey Anon, rather than asking people to "puck" a number, why don't you suggest one.
How much do you propose we spend, on the high school, on parks and recreation, on roads, on infrastructure?
What's your limit?
Surely, you must have a breaking point. Or do you plan on being the last one standing and filling all the tax bills yourself?
You're pretty critical of people wanting to limit the outlay on a high school project.
What do you think is reasonable? And please, don't come back with whatever Celli or the board come up with. I'd like to know what you want to spend.
Are they proposing too much? Not enough? Should it be $100 million? $105 million? Maybe $99.9 million?
Then I want to know whom you're going to get it from? Obama? Corbett? Allegheny County? The Casinos?
Anon 11:18 PM, let's do some simple math, basically because that is the only kind I can do. The project is supposed to be no more than 113.3 million dollars. Subtract 75 million and you have 38.3 million dollars. That is without any overruns. The ENTIRE municipal budget for 2012 is 42 million dollars. Now do you understand why we are only looking to cut the school project? Or do you still not get it?
Elaine
Anon 11:18 - spending $75 million rather than $100+ million might save a valuable teaching position. Might save a fine arts or special ed program. So yeah, to answer your question it might help Anon 11:11 or 11:14.
There's a lot you can do with $25 million dollars.\Then there are the questions brought up by a prominent architect on whether the current design is better than the existing building. Visit Lebodesign.net and read their opinion.
The Staffing Report is a good guide for cutting expenses.
I'm not advocating spending more than $75mm. All I'm asking is if folks like 11:11 and 11:14 are ALREADY hurting, how does spending $75mm help them? To folks that are at the breaking point, there's not much difference between 75, 100 or 200 million. Once you're drowning, it's more or less irrelevant. So, if we are really trying to help those folks, we need to cut MORE. No one has suggested anything other than reducing the high school project down to $75mm. . I'd have to think that reducing the high school project for folks like 11:11 and 11:14 is like trying to stop the flood with one sand bag. If these problems are as pervasive as has been suggested here, why not suggest cutting $10 mm from police and fire? Why not suggest consolidating Hoover and Jefferson? Why not suggest axing leaf pick up? Bitching at the school board won't solve anything, even though it seems to be everyone's favorite past time.
I think it is a bit unfair to compare the price tag of the high school project that will be paid over a number of years to the annual municipal budget. A fair comparison would be to multiply the annual municipal budget (factoring in inflation) by the number of years the high school project will be paid down. Otherwise, you are comparing the total cost of a homeowner's mortgage to their yearly income (my God, they are spending $300K on a house and they only make $150K a year).
I have not looked this up, but my assumption is that the cost of the high school project is going to be paid down over a 20-30 year time frame. Depending on the final costs, this looks to be an additional $3 million to $6 million per year (using a back of the envelop method of math). Paying down this debt looks to be about 5% to 10% of the school district's annual expenses.
That said, I would rather be as conservative as possible in spending money on the high school project. Getting it done for $75 million may be a bit unrealistic (Bethel Park's new high school is in the low to mid $80's). On the other hand, the current design seems to me to be way overdone at $113 million (it looks more like an art museum than a high school). I am hoping that the new round of bids are well over budget. Hopefully, then we can get a more realistic and practical renovation project.
Well said, Michael. I told you I was bad at math. The point I was trying to make is that the municipal budget has less wiggle room than the district budget. I appreciate the process. They hold public hearings on the budget and go department by department at budget meetings. Each department and board gives a report to discuss wants/needs, successes or failures, and justifies its existence. Everything is discussed openly and televised. How else would we have known that they are using the stormwater fee to clean the streets? I didn't say they were perfect.
Elaine
Anon 12:12: Somehow you just don't seem to get it that the school district has their hand deepest into the cookie jar. "Bitching at the school board" as a favorite past time may be what you think is going on, but it is simply that we need to put the tourniquet on the most critical source of bleeding. There are going to have to be other cuts, too, but already established services and necessary maintenance are harder to start with than irresponsible spending on new things, like a private bathroom for our superintendent.
Michael Goodin, what is amazing is that Bethel is building a completely new HS building for approx. $80 million, not renovating the old campus.
Also, I'm not advocating a $75 million project. I rather liked James Fraasch's proposal to do the renovation in pieces, which I believe Rothschild/Taylor/CAC insinuated could be done in their plans.
And as far as the new design looking like an art museum. After seeing the latest materail samples... a Walmart is more fitting!
Regarding the lack of bidders. Could it be that a number of contractors after reviewing the materials have decided they want no part of this project?
When the cheap materials start to deteriorate and people get mad about spending more money to renovate the 2-3 year old high school that doesn't function any better than the old one, I wouldn't want my company's name associated with it either.
Revisit Celli's response to Dan Remely at the last update when he asked if the aluminum siding selected for the athletic wing came in any other color. Celli said something like: "we chose the gray/silver finish because it will reflect, although we don't many here, the blue of the sky." Oh yeah there's some fine aesthetic justification! Bet Frank Lloyd Wright rolled over on that one.
A construction worker from the Bethel HS project was overheard saying that the terrazzo floor is cracking and the tile work is sinking. They are considerably over budget.
But its (Bethel's new HS) oh so 21st century!
For the record Rolliers had 10 years tax forgiveness. How is that for squandered money?
Does anyone know if the current high school paid off?
I did not know that Rolliers got a ten year tax break. I knew they got an incentive, but wasn't aware of how much or for how long. OK, so a faurly successful MTL business got a break to develop a piece of property and did a nice job with the financial breaks.
SO using the logic that hey if it worked before, just do it again right! So what happened to the "tiffed" property at Bower Hill & Washington?
Shines a light on the argument that if Lebo could build depression era schools that justifies going all in - in 2011!
I'm still waiting for Anon 10:25 to "puck" a number on what we should spend on the HS project! They're on people's backs that have suggesting holding around $75 million... what will make them happy? $105 million? $113.39 million?
Rolliers is one of the only businesses around here that supported our Mt. Lebanon kids with their fundraising efforts until fairly recently. Due to their kind support, the amount of requests for kids to sell tickets, collect donations, etc. in their parking lot apparently became unmanageable and they had to stop. Pamela's is the other one that has been gracious and charitable - even brought cold kids in for a hot free breakfast!. Those two represent the positive fabric of our community.
The other big businesses either don't allow such activity or only permit 1 or 2 organizations to monopolize the efforts. The Galleria kicked a student to the curb and threatened to take the money they collected to help other kids! If Rollier's got a good deal 10 years ago, it may not have been a prudent decision on the municipal side, but I am glad they are here. One the other hand, the TIF plan at Washington and Bower Hill - what a disaster.
Is the current high school paid off? Or do we still owe someone.
Post a Comment