"Keeping It Real...The truth behind artificial surfaces in Mt. Lebanon" is a response to the artificial turf proposal and can be found here. This 32 page presentation will be available on the municipal website. The podcast is available here and runs just over thirty minutes. It would have been less, but Dave Brumfield kept interrupting James, almost to the point of arguing with him until Matt Kluck stepped in by asking James to continue and to save questions for the end.
134 comments:
The YSA has reportedly paid up all unpaid delinquent fees to the school district, according to Commission president Dave Brumfield at tonights meeting. Dave Franklin's *army* was a no-show even though encouraged to attend. They must have been searching for and counting loose change in all their cars, couches, easy chairs, childrens piggy banks, Moms stash, Dads pockets. Wonder what the actual way-past-due payment amounted to...many different delinquent figures claimed like $80,000 - $120,000 ? Wonder where they really got it from ? Hear the school district told them they would not even consider a renewal of joint maintenance agreement until after all dues paid up.
[Sigh] I guess another RTK is in order.
Elaine
Wait a minute didn't Dr. Steinhauer say there weren't any unpaid dues a few weeks ago?
I wonder if Commish B left out some pertinent information.
Elaine you made this observation:
" The payment for 2012 will depend on renegotiation of the agreement. In all, the only outstanding payment is $20,000 for last year, Klein said. [I calculate over $100,000 according to the RTK.] "
My bet Mr. Brumfield 'meant' (nod, nod, wink, wink) that 2012's dues were brought up to date.
I'd be shocked to find the YSA having a spare $100,000 laying around.
Yep. Caught in another lie. So was Chip. So was Jan. They all said the YSA was up to date.
Elaine
Somebody turned the missing parking authority fine drop box with the $800,000 in it over to them is the word on the street.
Everything is hunky dorey in the bubble now. LOL
Four pages of Sources denotes an appreciable amount of effort. Well done, Mr. Cannon.
Well done James.
I am not sure when the Commission introduced the, "President may interrupt the speaker at any point when he disagrees" policy but we certainly saw it in full effect last night.
I wasn't at the meeting when the YSA did their dance. Did those commissioners who have been against turf do the same thing to the YSA? I wonder if Mr. B was just trying to get them back.
With reasoned arguments like the ones given last night, I have to believe the tide is turning. The evidence is pretty overwhelming WHEN YOU HAVE A CHOICE.
I put that in caps because the high school has little choice. They have no field space for all Title IX sports to all practice on at the same time. Turf becomes important for them due to how much they are legally required to practice and field teams. The municipality, on the other hand, has options. They have more fields that can be developed if overuse is a primary concern. It is this "choice" that most of us just want them to get right.
If the District has too many sports they can cut boys and girls sports and be in compliance with title IX. Who needs co-ed hacker sack anyway? They already did cut a boys and girls sports team when they cut the rifle team so they can refuse field use to other sports too. By the way the Dormont Mt. Lebanon Gun club, where a number of our rifle team learns to shoot, beat the U. S. Army in a national rifle shooting competition on recently.
If Dave Brumfield is interrupting speakers it is because he is losing the argument and he knows it. He is also opening himself to a personal liability lawsuit for denying a speaker his Federal right to free speech.
If Mr. Cannon or Mr. Kluck would like the United States Code cite and the legal cases to back up Mr. Brumfield's exposure to personal legal liability I would be happy to mail the Title under the U.S. Code as well as the names of the court cases that support my claim to Commissioner Brumfield's personal legal liability exposure to their homes. If Penn State can be sanctioned so can David Brumfield.
I see there is a pension investment review mentioned on the commission agenda. Are four commissioners taking better care of Brumfield's deadbeat YSA sports buddies than they are of the employees pension investments?
I like my police and fire departments and other municipal employees better than the dishonest deadbeat athletic supporters any day.
John Ewing
Now there's a novel approach approach, insert Title IX into the debate. Several problems with that strategy as I see it.
Title IX has been around since 1972.
From wiki:
"Title IX is a portion of the Education Amendments of 1972, Public Law No. 92-318, 86 Stat. 235 (June 23, 1972), codified at 20 U.S.C. sections 1681 through 1688, U.S. legislation also identified by the name of its principal author as the Patsy T. Mink Equal Opportunity in Education Act. It states (in part) that
No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance..."
In the '70s, Mt. Lebanon has had student populations over 8,000 and managed to not exclude or discriminate against anyone's participation in activities. Now that enrollment has dropped to around 5,200 meeting Title IX should be a breeze. There are always the possibility of cases like Franklin v. Gwinnett County Public Schools, but that has no bearing on whether we have turf or not on municipal or school district fields.
2:04 where in Title IX does it demand: "field space for all Title IX sports to all practice on at the same time"?
Nice try though!
Mr. Brumfield's interruptions, considering his recent involvement with youth sports, certainly smells like a conflict of interest.
No mention of the other 3 commissioners, was Matt the only one to find Brumfield's interruptions impolite?
Federal funding in Mount Lebanon is so small it is a joke anyway. Give back the Federal money and tell the Federal government to stick Title IX when it belongs. Grove City College had the guts to stand up to the government and everybody had a tuition break and a great education. Mount Lebanon is about a great education not field space and "wickedly expensive" taxes.
Kelly did too. Kristen asked a question.
Another thing that came out of last night's meeting was about the flooding on Cedar. During Citizens Comments, I raised the issue about the flooding at the bottom of Greenhurst and Cedar. Dan Dieseroth, from Gateway Engineering, came up to the microphone to say that they have done all they can do. Since the flooding does not affect people's homes, the cost can't be justified. It would be extremely expensive to do anything else there. A resident from Cedar Blvd. told me that Cedar flooded in two places on Friday. The water comes from the Rec Center and from Greenhurst. Does it really make sense to add to the flooding issue by turfing two fields?
Elaine
The Philadelphia Inquirer reported Gov. Tom Corbett recently signed legislation under which "districts will have to submit full reports on athletic opportunities - on who participates and how much is spent on sports across the board. Pennsylvania becomes the fourth state, after Georgia, Kentucky and New Mexico, to require such reporting, 40 years after the passage of Title IX, the federal law mandating equity in sports and academics at all schools receiving federal money." The piece notes that Title IX does not require such reporting at the secondary level
I wonder how much this new reporting will cost the school district? Here come more budget cuts.
Two thoughts:
1. MTLmagazine has this: "Lots of criminal mischief this week. Broken windows, graffiti, damaged playground equipment and patio furniture, etc. Lots of people are on vacation, so keep your eyes and ears open and don't hesitate to act on your hunch and call 911."
Could artificial turf on Cedar be like handing out an invitation to vandals?
2. I'd love to see MTLmagazine offer either Kluck/Brumfield or Cannon/Franklin a fairand unbiased opportunity to engage in a Q&A debate.
Now there would be an article of newsworthy interest rather than their usual mind-numbing dribble.
State school financing is allocated on a per-pupil basis so declining enrollment can mean fewer teachers will be needed, leading to layoffs, narrowing curriculum and eliminating arts and/or foreign language programs. Increased emphasis on turf installation and maintenance expenses could lead to the same destructive outcome.
Mind-numbing dribble is the main subject material for the community comic book.
The YSA proposal indicated that the SD would be maintaining the two artificial turfs. Jim documented how expensive artificial turf is over the real thing. What the YSA is proposing will be taking money away from education and putting it towards sports.
In his address, Mark Emmert, NCAA president, said, "One of the grave dangers stemming from our love of sports is that the sports themselves have become too big to fail, too big to challenge. The result can be an erosion of academic values that are replaced by hero worship
and winning at all costs."
He also said he hoped that the punishments would ensure that at Penn State "football will never again be placed ahead of education nurturing and protecting young people."
We didn't require background checks for any adult volunteer until I made a stink about it here. For that I am anti-sports and anti-kids. What are we doing now? We're putting sports ahead of education. Don't believe me? Take a walk over to Horsman Drive and look for yourself. (Josephine, no e in Horsman.)
Elaine
Unless one has been living with their head in the sand it impossible to miss the impact building taj mahal athletic facilities have on the school districts budget.
We have staff cuts, student parking fees and a $43,000 search for sugar daddies all necessitated by the absurd renovation plan.
Yes, we needed a new pool and some long neglected maintenance, but we didn't need new gyms or the destruction of perfectly good tennis courts and ballfield.
Plus had we renovated the building we had, and twelve experienced residents said we should have, we wouldn't be wasting almost $1 million on a bridge across "busy" Horsman Drive.
The sports cabal got their way, destroyed valuable practice spaces and they're still not happy.
Next year when the district cuts more counselors, Ed programs and supplies don'tnyou dare blame it on Harrisburg, President Posti!
After last night, now what? If fields are needed and artificial turf isn't the answer, do we have an alternative? What was the Robb Hollow item on the agenda? I am asking because I heard that one of the Commissioners does has an alternative and I haven't seen it. Is the alternative available on line?
The Robb Hollow item was removed from last night's agenda because it was added prematurely. I am sure there is an alternative to artificial turf, but nothing is available online. Unfortunately, Dave's tunnel vision has not allowed him to seek alternatives. I believe the remaining commissioners are working together on an alternate plan.
Elaine
There is one altrenative plan that has not received much attention, yhough I know several of the commissioners are looking into it.
That is vreating and using A ATHELETIC FIELD MAINTENANCE MANUAL similar to the one in use in Cranberry. Where by the way they seem to favor natural grass vs. artificial turf.
Here is the link for the Cranberry manual: http://www.ctaaonline.com/volunteer/fieldmaint/townshipmanual.pdf
If you read through it- it appears some of the procedures used by the varoius MTL sports groups are actually exacerbating problems on our fields rater than improving them.
10:50--you're assuming more fields ARE needed. Not to offend you but I'd ask that prove it. How od you know more fields are "needed"?
WHy is it you can drive around MTL and find fields empty all day?
Do the kids only put down their ipads and cell phones and come out to play sports when mommy and daddy grab their little arms and drag them to a group activity that involves promises of a snack afterwards?
11:46 -- I agree with you, the YSA has never proved more fields are needed.
If you carefully study their June presentation on artificial turf, you will see that are 38 "open" 2-hour unscheduled, unused time segments per week, plus 70 "NA 8-10 pm" time segments per week unused even though 2 fields on Cedar are lighted, plus 20 "H.S. Overflow" 2-hour time segments per week that may or not be utilized.
In addition to this, while the YSA can show on a piece of paper that all field time slots are scheduled, by no means are all actually utilized on the days and times scheduled, even in excellent weather. A number of us have checked on this.
When you consider YSA statements or arguments, associate them with the terms specious, fallacious or sophistic.
Over at LeboFields there is a perfect example of the self-centered, pious, self-aggrandizing attitudes that now prevail in today's Real Lebo!
This comment appears at
AnonymousJuly 24, 2012 1:40 PM
Perhaps we could just eliminate a few holes on Mr. Kluck's golf course?
Reply
Oblivious to the history of the community and the 100+ year old course here is a brief history of "Mr. Kluck's golf vourse!"
"And, like Oakmont, the nine-hole golf course has been designated an historical Western Pennsylvania landmark through the Pittsburgh History & Landmark Foundation.
Mt. Lebanon Golf Course is something of an anomaly because it has lasted a century in one of the most desirable areas to live in Western Pennsylvania."
I agree with the observation above. The MTL Golf Course and the traditional values of the community have long made Lebo one of the most desirable areas to live in Western PA.
Unfortunately, the mindless, myopic, me, me, me rantings of Lebofields and friends are quickly destroying the sense of community and desirability!
LeboFields is an ugly boil that should be lanced!
Taxpayer paid babysitting is carefully labeled the Youth Sports Association deadbeats.
John Ewing
I apologize in advance, but I really can't resist. Elaine, publish it only if you think it's funny.
Know why certain Lebo residents want artificial turf?
No, why?
Because use is restricted to dull, rounded objects with no points!
Da- rumpffff!
James Cannon III asked me to publish his comment as a document since it exceeded Blogger's limit. Here it is.
Cannon meeting response
Elaine
From www.davebrumfield.com
If this website’s content and grammar is any indication of the thinking on Brumfield’s part, it’s no wonder Mt. Lebanon is in the current state of chaos.
According to the website, goals include:
“Support programs that help our long standing residents stay in their homes as long as possible
• We must remember the different needs of our long standing residents.” SO TELL ME HOW FLOATING A BOND FOR TURF AND RAISING TAXES IS MEETING HIS GOAL?
and also:
“Tax cuts that cause operating expenses to be financed by bonds cost much more in the long run” SO TELL ME WHY HE SUPPORTS FLOATING BONDS THAT WOULD NOT EVEN BE USED FOR OPERATING EXPENSES.
and:
“Spending cuts that diminish Mt. Lebanon’s appeal can cost all of his more then they would save.” HUH??
and:
“Protect and enhance those features unique to Mt. Lebanon that make it special.” THEN WHY CAN”T THE GOLF COURSE GET A LAWN MOWER? ISN’T THE GOLF COURSE A SPECIAL AND UNIQUE ASSET TO OUR COMMUNITY?
CAN SOMEONE PLEASE RUN FOR 4TH WARD NEXT ELECTION?
Mr. Cannon III wrote:
"Simply, I believe spending public money on a project most sane and rational people would consider an extravagance that would benefit a tiny portion of the entire town is not, by any stretch, a wise or judicious use of an ever-shrinking capital resource pool. ... Should the YSA somehow manage to raise enough money on its own for construction as well as long-term maintenance, then I say build away. I wouldn’t oppose it. But the taxpayers of Mt. Lebanon cannot and should not be saddled with additional debt based solely on an idea that reflects one individual’s personal vision."
Precisely! This "turf thing" is not about extra playing time for field sports; or more field space; or more field usage; or increased property values; or attracting well-healed families into Mt. Lebanon: It's about money - or, more precisely, taking other people's money and using it for what the supporters of "turf" consider a "community benefit." I do not for a moment doubt the sincerity of the "turf" supporters; but I believe they are sincerely wrong. Taking money from private citizens and giving it to other private citizens, regardless of the good intentions, is wrong - especially when the beneficiaries constitute a rather small percentage of the population of our town.
Mr. Cannon, I suggest you register and run for office as a Libertarian.
If the YSA is so sold on artificial turf and their belief that the majority of the Lebo community believes as they do why haven't they suggested a-- (from wiki)
Public–private partnership
Public–private partnership (PPP) describes a government service or private business venture which is funded and operated through a partnership of government and one or more private sector companies. These schemes are sometimes referred to as PPP, P3 or P3.
PPP involves a contract between a public sector authority and a private party, in which the private party provides a public service or project and assumes substantial financial, technical and operational risk in the project. In some types of PPP, the cost of using the service is borne exclusively by the users of the service and not by the taxpayer. In other types (notably the private finance initiative), capital investment is made by the private sector on the strength of a contract with government to provide agreed services and the cost of providing the service is borne wholly or in part by the government. Government contributions to a PPP may also be in kind (notably the transfer of existing assets). In projects that are aimed at creating public goods like in the infrastructure sector, the government may provide a capital subsidy in the form of a one-time grant, so as to make it more attractive to the private investors. In some other cases, the government may support the project by providing revenue subsidies, including tax breaks or by providing guaranteed annual revenues for a fixed period.
I believe several bloggers including Mssrs Gideon and Cannon have insinuated they'd be open to the idea.
Considering the YSA's credit history in regard to the Joint Maintenance Agreement, safeguards would need to be very precisely defined in the contract.
I suspect the reason Lebofields and the YSA never broach the idea is that they already know they could never deliver on their part of the partnership.
Giffen Good
For examples of successful PPP's (and, yes, some failures) in various cities and towns across America see the Reason Foundation's Annual Privatization Report 2011:
Local Government Privatization. This is the document I recently sent to all of the Mt. Lebanon Commissioners.
Would the old parking authority be an example of a failed PPP?
Though the failure lies not with the concept but rather with the execution.
Give it up, YSA! Fancy fields do not make better teams.
How about putting an addition on the library instead? That's a facility that is well-used by Lebo residents of all ages.
According to Commission meeting minutes of 25 October 2010, "The Mt. Lebanon Parking Authority was created by the Commission on February 26, 1954 under the Parking Authority Law of 1947. The Authority was created to acquire, construct, maintain, and operate parking facilities within the Municipality. The Commission of the Municipality appoints the Authority five-member Board of Directors." It therefore cannot be considered part of a PPP - a private business contracted by a local government to run a local government's program.
I should also mention that not all PPP's are created equal. Governments get into trouble when they contract services to private organizations that do not have the "profit motive," as described by the IRS. When a government contracts for services with a non-profit organization there is little incentive towards efficiency or customer service.
The YSA fiasco is a great example of a private, non-profit organization, organized "for the public good," that one might say was part of a "PPP" - of sorts - due to its contract with the School District. But the YSA has no incentive to run efficiently or keep accurate records (despite the IRS!) because there is no profit involved. YSA's interest is in redirecting tax dollars towards its special interests - it's as simple as that.
I don't for a moment discount the good works many non-profits and/or 501(c)(3) organizations perform; but the economic reality is that when people invest capital into a business with the intention of making a profit they perforce have great incentive to run that business efficiently, and offer services and products the paying public wants. If the Parking Authority had been leased to a private business, with the proviso that it both collect parking fines and maintain facilities in stellar condition, it is unlikely that the Municipality would find itself short $800,000.
Note: For those of you who believe that "profit" is a dirty word, let me remind you that every breathing human being on this earth has the profit motive for himself - as a moment's thought will demonstrate.
why wasn't cannon's slideshow posted on the municipal site? They did it with the YSA stuff.
I thought the YSA proposal was removed from the municipal website and even questioned it during a comment, but if you search "YSA" on the muni site, it will pop up. I have been told over and over that Jim's presentation will be posted on the muni site. The YSA presentation was cleaned up and posted by mid morning the next day. I guess it is who you know in this town.
Elaine
so what will it take for the presentation to go up?
Anonymous said...
Wait a minute didn't Dr. Steinhauer say there weren't any unpaid dues a few weeks ago?
July 23, 2012 11:50 PM
He doesn't have a clue what the district finances are. He only repeats what Jan Klein tells him. She would not let Marge Sable see the finances of the district and that was one reason for her separation. Marge Sable wanted to see the finances and Jan Klein would not let her so why would Jan Klein let Dr. Steinhauer see them. If he insisted he would be separated. He didn't lie about there being unpaid dues...he was told that by Jan Klein and he believed it. He needs to demand the finances and find out for himself what to say when asked about what is owed to the district.
Who knows? At least it is available here. I published the YSA proposal here minutes after the meeting. Then I published the cleaned up version here too. I have to chuckle because I read on Lebo Fields how someone asked Dave where he could see the presentation. Dave said to check the muni website for the televised meetings schedule. Unfortunately, they run a few weeks behind. Hmmm, I wonder where he read or listened to Jim's presentation?
If you want to read Dave's latest post on misconceptions, go to http://lebofields.blogspot.com/2012/07/misconceptions-regarding-turf-proposal.html#comment-form
There Dave, maybe you will have a record number of hits today.
Elaine
The more noise I hear from the Youth Sports Association the less inclined I am to support the Districts fundraising efforts.
If the District had told the self-centered YSA they would give them the new buildings when they raised the money we wouldn't have this problem of the District raiding Municipal coffers to support incompetent demands from selfish incompetent unions supported by stupid directors and conflicted commissioners.
Unfortunately, the District hired Allison and Timmy who think of themselves as government workers and that is exactly what they are. Who else needs 5 more days of summer vacation. Let's give the administrative raises to Dave Franklin as a head start to his turf dream. He can raise the rest on his blog. Maybe Kelly can do something constructive besides running up the community credit card.
John Ewing
Yes, you're right John. Both Kelly and Matt are working constructively besides running up the community credit card.
Elaine
So why run up the community credit card and turn us into a Stockton or San Jose Ca., Elaine? That not responsible government, Neither is the District picking the Municipal Government's pocket but it is happening right under our noses. The District just keeps whining to the Commissioners and they roll over and play dead.
John
Elaine,
I thought Mr. Kluck was going to present a solution on Monday night? All he did was rebutt the YSA plan. That is not a solution and does not solve the problem.
The only solution to this mess is to tell the YSA deadbeats and the District to "Go to Hell".
John Ewing
I really wish people had been paying attention. The YSA folks only seem to listen when their people are on the podium.
If they had paid attention, they would realize that their is a solution put other there by Matt and Kelly. But these people refuse to hear it.
After reading Lebofields latest post I'm wondering why we've arrived at a point where our fields are in such lousy shape and the only answer is artificial turf!
Visit the Cranberry Athletic Associations website. http://www.ctaaonline.com/volunteer/fieldmaint/
Now here's a community that has beautiful athletic spaces and they are natural grass. Could the difference between their fields and ours be that they take care of what they have and we here in Leboland don't have a clue?
Look on their site. There is a field maintenance manual and even guidelines from the company that built the fields.
Here's just one suggestion from that company-- Please read the section titled:
Keep Good Records
S&S Processing, the company responsible for building the new fields at Graham Park publishes a how to guide on field maintenance. Please take a few minutes to review it before working on any fields.
Here in Lebo, not only don't we have manuals, I'm betting after looking back on the JMA, the Parking Authority, etc. the record keeping is non-existent. We probably have no idea what's been taken care, what hasn't, what creates problems or what procedures have fixed them.
11:55, you're right!
We don't have people that can keep track of a $30,000 check, how in the world can we assume that they might monitor and fix a puddle problem around home plate.
Christ, we lived with packing tape sealing leaky windows at the high school for how many years?
Managing and maintenance of our municipal and district assets isn't Lebo's strong suit that's for sure.
And how many more years will we be living with those windows? Another 4 years. We had to start with the athletic facility first. Talk to the construction workers at the job site and they will tell you that Building C just needed gutted, not torn down.
Still waiting for the presentation to go up on the municipal site.
Elaine
Elaine, the PIO, manager and whomever else is involved with putting up Cannon's presentation will drag their feet as long as possible.
Why?
Because any solution other than artificial turf will change their routine and possibly expose the neglect that has been occurring for years on our fields.
They are a protected beauracracy and will do anything and everything to protect the status quo.
That's the reason you'll never see anything other than fluff and glad-handing on the pages of MTLmagazine. Morgans isn't going to cut off her own nose, by shining a light on anything controversial. She needs these people otherwise her little domain will be opened up.
"S&S Processing, the company responsible for building the new fields at Graham Park publishes a how to guide on field maintenance. Please take a few minutes to review it before working on any fields."
Graham Park is the beautiful natural grass Dick's Sports Complex in Cranberry.
Now Lebofields suggest we look at Howard County, MD and Arlington, VA for field guidance.
I suggest before we do that why don't we look at Graham Field and the company that built it, S&S Processing only 1 hour away in New Castle.
S&S bills themselves on their website:
Athletic Field Pros
After several years of delivering well received athletic field products S&S started a services business to address new field construction and major renovations. From the infield dirt to the outfield turf, our services staff can give you an uparalleled playing surface.
Soccer, Football, and All-Purpose Fields:
Have we ever contacted S&S or has artificial turf been the objective from the getgo? who would have the answer to this, the municipal manager, rec manager?
You can be sure MTLmagazine isn't going to do one of those little road trips they like to publish up to Graham Park, interview the people that run and maintain it!
Nope they rush up the cleaned up YSA presentation and sit on the the Cannon one.
This resident hopes if they are sitting on it, it goes off soon.
1:17 that's not a bad idea.
Perhaps that could renovate Wildcat/Middle (personally I don't think it's all that horrendous) for $10,20 or maybe $40,000. Make it really nice and keep it that way.
Then every year after have them tackle another one all with the understanding they show our maintenance department how to keep all the fields in the best possible shape.
I'm betting it would be a lot cheaper than the $1.3 million YSA plan to turf one field.
1:38 PM, Wildcat and Middle are our best fields. The YSA wants fields that they can play on after thunderstorms and during the winter. Unfortunately, the Northeast is not an area for year round usage.
According to his blog post, there are almost 3,000 children and their families involved in youth sports and many, many people are in support of this effort. His petition shows 120 people.
Elaine
Maybe the PIO needs more staff. It is both time consuming and costly to run a website. I posted the presentation on the blog and website an hour after I received it. The municipality had it before the meeting. Should we spend the money on more staff instead of artificial turf?
Still waiting.
Elaine
http://www.countywomannewspapers.com/wordpress/2012/05/artificial-turf-fields-not-so-safe-and-not-so-green-part-2/
Elaine, I'm not so sure we can't make our fields as playable after a rain as artificial turf, here's an interesting site and info from a publication for women. I shared it with Matt and Kelly last week. Maybe the company the earlier blogger suggested can verify if this is possible. I have to admit I don't know.
One certainly can't believe everything one reads, but it doesn't hurt to look into it.
"A drainage system can make this field dry just as fast as synthetic turf and the right grass or sod can make a thick and even playing field. It doesn’t have to be locked up, it’s not flammable, and you can lie on it, look up at the stars and not feel as if you may have compromised your health."
Quick call INS, somebody's busing illegals into Mt. Lebanon! Sure hope they're made to get IDs before November.
On June 25th the YSA proposal states they serve over 2,900 young athletes. Now according to Lebofields there are over 3,000.
Sorry, Lebo Fields states close to 3,000.
Elaine
If there are close to 3,000 youths, the problem, as I see it, is that those 120 parents who signed the petition are having too many children!
Elaine
A thought, could we be our own worst enemies?
Here's a tip from the S&S Field Maintenance Suggestions.
"Puddle Repair
LEAVE THE BROOMS IN THE CLOSET!!!
The story is the same everywhere…
Coach “so and so” was down at the field again sweeping the puddle off at third base. He got the game in, but only after putting half a ton of infield mix into the grass. How many times will I have to tell him…
Everyone understands the need to get the game in – We
need to provide a means for letting it happen, without making a
bad situation worse – EDUCATE AND INFORM!
Remove the standing water: This is accomplished in many
ways but use the method that leaves as much infield mix on
the field.
• Use a tennis court squeegie to roll the water off.
• Fill a hose with water and with a person at each end, drag
the hose through the puddle.
• Dig a sump hole and pump the water out.
• Use a sponge like tool and carry the water off.
Firm up the mud: Apply a Calcined Clay drying agent to the
remaining mud by raking and mixing the product until the mud
becomes firm. Add as much drying agent as needed to establish
a firm surface that is safe to play on.
Determine the source of the problem: The best method for
puddle repair is to eliminate it by adding infield material, removing
the lip causing it, or a combination of both."
As a volunteer parents in youth sports, I and many parents did exactly as described. Broomed the standing water off the field 'to get the game in."
Nobody from YSA or the rec. dept showed us the correct procedure or provided a manual for dealing with the standing water. So despite our best intentions we only made our fields worse in the long run.
That's why we need to reexamine our procedures before spending $$$ we really don't have!
Everyone should start calling Susan Morgans and ask WTF. This is ridiculous.
Hey Morgans, do you really want a controversy? I mean, do you really really want one? think about it. Just post the presentation. We're taxpayers, we're paying for the damn site and we're paying your 85k/year salary. Post it. You work for us. Post it. We own the website, you just manage it. Post it.
Morgans comic book won't post anything without Fellers permission, and Feller won't print anything in the comic book without three commission votes.
Shut down the crummy magazine. Haven';t read it in months, hope the advertisers are reading. You ad goes straight from the mail box to the trash, so don't believe their rate card when they claim readership. They may print XX amount of magazines, that doesn't mean anyone is reading it.
Hey Morgans, post the Cannon proposal or get out of your office - we don't need you or mtl staff anymore. Enough of your horse manure! We need money for Lebo fields, not comic books.
It's ok, let her keep acting like an amateur. All it does is take away credibility from her monthly flier and lend more crediblility to this blog. If I were Dave Franklin, I'd be in her office right now demanding she post it.
And to the commission--is this really how you want things in this town--one sided, biased and petty? how sad.
I agree with 4:22 p.m. We don't need more stuff on glitzy paper to throw into the recycling bin. The magazine isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
It's old news---get rid of it.
Looks like it will have to wait another day. Isn't the office closed now? Is the muni on summer hours too? I don't think there is anything to clean up because Jim Cannon is a PowerPoint ninja and the presentation was first rate.
Remember, Susan Morgans doesn't read this blog, so you may have to email her directly. Smorgans@mtlebanon.org
Elaine
Before the comparison between Lebo and Graham Park in Cranberry gets any further out of hand, let's address some facts.
Lebo has 1 municipal field (Bird) that can be used for regulation soccer, football and lacrosse games. If we add Jefferson and Mellon to the equation, we have 3. I hate adding the HS to the equation because it is primarily used for HS sports and can't really be considered as part of the inventory, but to keep all of the doubters happy let's throw it in there for a grand total of 4 full sized fields. Each of the above grass fields is used by multiple groups and multiple sports year round. In other words, they are not dedicated. In Lebo, we also play lacrosse, soccer, football, field hockey, and of course baseball on our baseball fields. All year long.
On the other hand, Graham Park alone has 7 full size lacrosse/football/soccer fields. Of this inventory, 3 are dedicated to football and lacrosse (because they are played in different seasons) and 4 are dedicated to soccer. Graham Park's 5 baseball fields are dedicated solely for baseball.
North Boundary Park in Cranberry has 3 soccer fields (including the Giant Eagle Soccer Field) and an American Legion baseball field.
Community Park in Cranberry has 5 lighted baseball fields, a lighted football field, and 2 multisport practice fields.
To be fair in our comparison, the Seneca Valley HS campus has a turfed stadium, 2 additional baseball fields and 3 more multipurpose grass fields, but I'm not sure the folks from Cranberry even venture over to Jackson Twp to use them. If we include the 4 multipurpose fields at SVHS, that gives Cranberry a total of 17 multipurpose fields, or 13 if we leave out the HS campus.
The 7 fields at Graham Park are subject to strict schedule of rest and use. They have that luxury. In fact, I think a number of the Graham Park fields are currently closed until Fall. There are plenty of other fields to handle the demand.
In case you're wondering, Cranberry's population in 2010 was just over 28,000.
If you consider all of the above, it is very easy to understand why Cranberry's 13 grass fields are in such wonderful condition for the dedicated seasons in which they are used, while our 3 fields are tasked with accommodating every sport over 12 months for the same size community.
From Forbes.com-
"If Newsweek ceases to exist as a print magazine sometime in the next year, don’t say Barry Diller didn’t warn you." it looks like they are planning to go strictly online only.
So why do we need a 20th century expensive staff and glossy hard copy when it can all be available on line. We are in the 21st century with all it's innovations like smart phones, the Internet, twitter and Facebook.
Lebocitizens and Lebofields are distributing community info a lot faster than snail mail MTLmagazine.
That and they make no secret of whom they represent.
Lebo Fields, There are a lot of elementary playing fields here that appear to be in good condition but see minimal use by younger students. I know because I watch every time I go by them.
Come on, a field is a field is a field.
If you think Cranberry is so much better, by all means move there. Of course it has more recent amenities because it's much newer.
We must learn to live within our means here. Education should be our first priority, not sports.
The PIO doesn't read your blog? Hahahahaha
6:11 don't you just love how superficial Lebofields is. It's all about them. They think that they want soccer and lacrosse fields then everybody should want them.
Here's some demographics info MTL vs Cranberry.
Mt. Lebanon demographics:
There were 13,610 households out of which 31.3% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 57.3% were married couples living together,
In the CDP the population was spread out with 24.8% under the age of 18, 4.0% from 18 to 24, 26.9% from 25 to 44, 25.4% from 45 to 64, and 18.8% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 42 years. For every 100 females there were 87.1 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 82.1 males.
Cranbery Demographics
There were 8,352 households out of which 44.5% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 70.4% were married couples living together, 6.1% had a female householder with no husband present, and 21.5% were non-families. 17.9% of all households were made up of individuals and 6.4% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.81 and the average family size was 3.23.
In the township the population was spread out with 30.7% under the age of 18, 5.4% from 18 to 24, 35.2% from 25 to 44, 20.6% from 45 to 64, and 8.1% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 35 years. For every 100 females there were 97.1 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 92.7 males.
Notice Lebofields- 31.3% of MTL households have children under 18 years of age. In Cranberry 44.5% of households have children under 18.
The median age in MTL is 42 years old and 18.8% of residents are 65 or older.
Cranberry's median age is 35 (still in the child bearing window) and only 8.1% of residents are 65 or older.
So Lebofields if your priority is to play games with young people, Cranberry's the place for you. Or you could move to Maryland.
Here in Lebo 18.8% of the population probably have no interest in playing soccer or lacrosse on grass or turf. They may have other interest like walking paths, pools, libraries, tennis and golf.
Hey Lebofields, YSA....
Cranberry- 8.1% of residents are 65 or older. That means 2,276 residents probably are looking for recreation activities other than lacrosse or soccer.
There are 8,654 kids under 18 and probably looking to play lacrosse, soccer, football etc.
Mt. Lebanon- 18.8% of residents are 65 or older. That means 6,230 residents probably are looking for recreation activities, like walking, golf, swimming, tennis rather than lacrosse or soccer.
There are 8,218 kids in Lebo under 18.
If you are so in love with the North Hills why don't you call Howard Hanna and buy the house of your dreams in Cranberry before you sell your house here. Howard Hanna will finance the deal for you.
It is so nice of Howard Hanna to finance deadbeats we don't want as residents. Happy house hunting. Oh,
Lebo Fields why not take the other Daves, Dan, and Lee Adams with you? Then all the spendthrifts can live in one Ghetto.
Anon 9:25
Why must you get personal? Lee Adams has gone thru more than you know and does a great deal for this community.
I would appreciate it if you would keep focused on the issues and refrain from personal attacks.
Perhaps if you were required to sign your name, you might not be so callous
Who is Lee Adams?
Thanks for saying that, Chuck.
Elaine
This is why posting on this blog is always such fun. You praise Cranberry's field maintenance program while bashing ours, but I didn't tell you to move there did I? Instead, I describe some of the factual differences about their fields and ours and you're telling me to get out. Ironic?
I recently received a copy of a proposal being circulated by one of our commissioners about a comprehensive Rec proposal. It covers every major Rec asset from the tennis courts to the golf course to the pool to the ice rink to new fields. It touches everything and at a significant price. I fully support a large portion of this proposal, but I'm worried that when she presents it you're all going to Commisionet Fraasch her to move. Really?
As for the age disparity between Cranberry and Mt Lebo, when I was a kid growing up in Lebo Cranberry was an orchard. We thought we ruled the world here in Lebo. Admit it, we did. Unfortunately, we stood still. We can't stand still for much longer. Cranberry's no longer an orchard.
Allso, when the steel industry disappeared I'm glad that the anonymous posters weren't in charge of our region or it would be dust.
Why sit around and debate who's going to turn out the lights in Lebo? Having an older population isn't an excuse or a reason to stop improving. If it is, who are we selling our houses to 10, 15 or 20 years from now?
For those of us who are wondering why the YSA is having so much trouble paying the field maintenance bill, it is noteworthy that the median household net-worth of the 35-44 year old age group has dropped from $92,400 in 2007 to $42,100 in 2010.
For the 45-54 year old age group the median household net-worth fell from $185,000 in 2007 to $110,000 in 2010.
These are two prime age groupings for parents with children in school. But there is not a great deal of net worth to support an expensive high school building, an endowment fund-raising for school staff, and millions of dollars for recreational facilities in most communities.
Look then to the housing prices on the real estate websites for Mount Lebanon homes and you find offering prices for small 3 bedroom homes about $170,000 up to $300,000 for larger 3 or 4 bedroom homes, and prices go up from there. As one young parent told me recently, “You don’t get much real estate for $300,000 in Mount Lebanon.”
So if you have 2 or more children that need a good education how do you support rising prices for food, gasoline, a large mortgage, and tax increases on a $170,000 - $300,000 home with a net-worth of $42,100 to $110,000? Those sums are really not a lot of stocks, bonds, mutual funds, saving accounts, home equity, or college savings.
As the reality of these figures sink in it is apparent that parents cannot afford the $12 YSA fees on top of rising prices and low net-worth. And so the default on the “legally binding” $12 YSA fees to maintain fields.
My conclusion is if you can’t afford a $12 YSA fee per child, how do you afford the other amenities asked for by well-meaning sports volunteers?
And, how do you pay for a bond issue if you can’t afford a $12 YSA fee?
Question for 1027: where did you get Kelly's presentation? Where is it available? I'd like to read it.
Sometimes you have to be thankful for what you have.
I went by several school fields tonight and there was not a soul on them on this beautiful evening. It's hard to be sympathetic to YSA when green and grassy fields are sitting empty.
First I agree with Chuck B., Lee Adams is a nice guy and does a lot of volunteering. I don't agree with his position on building a sports complex with taxes, but he did say his sports thought they could raise substantial sums. If he can indeed deliver on his promise then good for him. If he's going to align with the YSA I would suggest he get them to satisfy the questions on the JMA, it'd be a lot easier to reach a compromise.
Dave, you're right Lebo was the place to live back when. But this isn't back when and the demographics aren't the same either.
I wouldn't tell you to move, but I would suggest that if you're so envious of the sports facilities in Cranberry, Maryland or Virginia maybe you should investigate making a move.
Put it this way, if I were a serious skier I wouldn't ask Lebo to build an expensive ski slope and chair lift. I'd move to Stowe or Aspen.
MTL population has shifted and it's no longer the only game on town.
If I were a young patent today starting a family Lebo probably wouldn't make my list of communities Turfed or not.
I think Lebo is an ideal spot for empty nesters that like living close to town, play golf or tennis and have the kids/grandkids for short stays.
I could be wrong though sent the hi-end condos proposed for Bower Hill and Washington didn't attract much interest. I sincerely doubt artificial turf would have changed that.
10:27 I love how you define both sides to suit your needs. Perhaps that comes from growing up believing you were living on top of the world.
Because people don't want your turf 'YOU' get to decide that our goal is to stand still.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you aren't Mr. Lebo.
I have things I'd like to see done here, big things, but this isn't the time and I'm not so arrogant as to believe I can force people to buy into it.
"this is why posting on this blog is always such fun. You praise Cranberry's field maintenance program while bashing ours, [well there grass fields are in better shape than ours and they do have a maintenance manual for participants to follow, where is ours, I've never seen one?!] but I didn't tell you to move there did I? [just what does a maintenance manual have to do with moving. You seem to be envious of all the sports facilities Cranberry has- wouldn't that be heaven for you?] Instead, I describe some of the factual differences about their fields and ours and you're telling me to get out. [and I referred to key difference in demographics and you come to make your little innuendos and false statements. Did I come over to your house(blog) and get on your case? Yes it is ironic how your mind works.] [oh forgot- how many times is it now that you said you weren't going to read or participate on Elaine's blog?] Ironic?"
Key difference Lebofields.
People can suggest you move, tell you to move, demand that you move. but know what - you don't have to move.
On the other hand should you get your way and the commissioners build your fancy field with bonds or tax revenue, I will be forced to pay a share of it whether I want to or not!
Now you and your buddies could turf out of your own pocket- make you happy and make me happy, but no you want to be happy and not give a rats tail if I am or not!
You want $1.2 million dollars worth of Turfed fields then by all means... Knock yourself out... Buy $3 million if it makes you happy. I don't want you hitting me up for it.
And I'm betting you know your 2,900 or almost 3,000 young athletes will drop to 2,500 or 2,000 if you raise participation fees to cover your private investment. That's why you want taxpayers to pick up the tab!
In today's Wall Street Journal the headline reads: "
When Even Pessimism May Be Too Optimistic"
In the article they write: "State and local governments are squeezing spending and raising taxes as federal stimulus aid wears off."
All signs indicate that while we may not fall back into a recession "Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke last week suggested that the American job-creation machine is "stuck in the mud."
So with all this economic pessimism what is LeboFields sound fiscal advice... "hey everybody let's spend over a million dollars on plastic grass so our kids can play soccer, lacrosse, football, etc., etc.
Yes, Mr. LeboFields may be right, without plastic grass the little darlings may not play as many games as he may wish or want. But, the truth that he won't admit is that if we don't buy his cockamamie artificial chemical laden, crumbled discarded tire playing surface, the kids will still have their sports.
They may occasionally have a rain out, a ball may take an unexpected hop on a mound of grass, but the games will still go on.
Our future hall of famers will still play their little hearts out.
How do I know this, because for the past 50, 60 years or more Lebo kids have been playing sports on dirt and natural grass.
If they quit because they don't have a field of plastic, they weren't into the sport all that much anyway!
You all need to lighten up on Franklin. It's pretty obvious he's a classic case of arrested development and just doesn't know any better. Look at his behavior. Lying, not paying his debts, acting like a tough guy and then taking the gimme gimme stance. He doesn't seem to understand the concept of "do it yourself" as in "pay for it yourself". But just like you don't blame an infant for crying, I don't blame that guy for his silliness. What's disturbing, though, is we seem to have one commissioner who not enables Franklin's nonsense but is also of the same mindset. It wouldn't matter except he could end up effecting everyone here in Oz. And I do lay blame at his feet.
One key point that Mr. Lebofields seems to have completely missed in his Cranberry v Lebo analysis...
"Built on property bought in 2003 from the Graham family, whose ancestors settled in the Cranberry area in 1837, the park was developed for about $10 million. It was built largely as a public-private partnership: Mashuda Corp., a Cranberry contracting company, donated $1 million in services by grading fields, and Dick's spent $2.2 million to finance construction in a naming rights agreement that runs through 2018."
Nowhere in the YSA proposal is there even a whisper of a public-private partnership!
Yes, this is some passing reference to a YSA contribution of $180,000 or so.
Unfortunately, everybody knows how good the YSA is when it comes to delivering the cash, whether it was in a promise or a joint maintenance agreement.
So, Mr. Holier than thou, I lived at the top of the heap and I expect you all to pay to keep me there, where's your pile of private cash????
Another omission in Lebofields Cranberry v Lebo comparison.
"Westinghouse announced last year it will build a new corporate headquarters in Cranberry, bringing over 3,000 jobs with it. This is in addition to Cranberry already being one of the fastest growing areas in the state of Pennsylvania due to it’s location at the intersection of I-76, I-79, state Routes 19 and 228 and 20 minute access to downtown Pittsburgh.If a multi-million dollar traffic improvement program can be approved in the next year or two, Simon Properties, owner of three major malls in the Pittsburgh area, is planning an additional 900,000 square foot retail and office complex almost directly across the road from Westinghouse, bringing a projected 1,000 to 1,500 additional jobs to the area.As reported in the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review."
When was the last time anyone called Leboland one of the region's fastest growing community?
When too is the big corporation arriving that will expand the tax base and create 3,000 new jobs?
Wake up Mr. Lebo it's not 1970 any more!
Rumor has it, the presentation made by Jim Cannon is going on the municipal website today. At 9:55 AM, it still wasn't uploaded.
Elaine
Could it not be up yet because the weekly Panera's thought control session and koffee klatch hasn't adjourned?
People and businesses are moving to the North Hills and Washing Road has three bankrupt properties. Our streets are in a planned deterioration mode for the next 40 years and the younger demographic is moving to the north side of Allegheny Co while the Washington Rd and Bower Hill project failed.
Walmart is attracting bigger crowds for better bargains and TJ Max may do as well. In short Mr. Franklin is right. Mount Lebanon WAS king of the hill. Now it is just another deteriorating business district with thin economics, poor demographics, expensive properties, and large borrowings on the horizon.
I still like MTL and with the right leadership andplanning it can still be a premier community in the region.
But if people like Lebofields are going to cling to their 70s era bubbles then we will be another deteriorating neighborhood with bankrupt properties and high taxes.
How many stupid expenditures like the Twin Hills and McNeilly purchase will it take before people wake up?
Where's the presentation? And I'll ask again of Mr. Franklin--where did you get Kelly's presentation?
10:54 I couldn’t agree with you more. We do have some good leadership on the Commission right now. As a new Commissioner, Fraasch has jumped in with both feet and might be this community’s best public advocate. Unfortunately the YSA doesn’t even realize it. I don’t mind spending money on Recreation just not on artificial turf. I understand that Fraasch has a plan too and if it involves not turfing and benefits the whole community I think a majority of this community needs to get on board. Mt Lebanon is a nice community. Maybe not the bubble some residents believe, but we are looking shabby these days and need a little sprucing up.
Mr. Franklin, I don’t understand your problem with Kluck and Fraasch because it sounds like they are trying to help you. I have read numerous “digs” into both Commissioners by you/LeboFields/YSA and can’t help but think it merely falls that they are not giving you everything you want.
So I wanted to look over the other sports. Pool has issues. Major issues. If the pool folks found that they had an endless budget they would probably ask for the problem issues to be addressed, a new bathhouse but would also request an indoor pool facility, terrace seating near the pool and all the bells and whistles. These items were addressed in an estimated $14m Aquatic plan. I haven’t heard one Commissioner bring up that plan again, because it was too much. I have heard about Commissioners are willing to address basic pool needs and ADA issues. Seems reasonable.
Let’s take the Golf Course. Anyone that goes to the golf course can see that it has gotten dated. I can’t remember the last time a major renovation happened there. However, ask any golfer or staff person they would love to see a new Clubhouse, major upgrades on the tees and a driving range. Not to mention 9 more holes. I haven’t heard from any of the Commissioners that they are willing to put millions into the golf facility either. Not even Kluck.
Let’s look at our Recreation Center and just say that it would be ideal to fully renovate the entire facility. Have a basketball court, work out facility, clean up the ice rink and even have an extra sheet of ice. We can’t all get what we want and I haven’t heard Commissioners talk about any of these things.
So why do you think it’s ok that you get artificial turf? If this Commission promised a better approach to maintenance of the fields and do some minor upgrades to the current fields that should be reasonable. And it’s not, why? I’ve heard that Commissioner Fraasch is trying to find you at least one new field space. Why isn’t that good enough? A new field. New space. Why aren’t you jumping on board to help her? Maybe you are and we just don’t know that. However, from my perspective, it seems that you/LeboFields/YSA are all working against anyone that might not be handing you artificial turf on a silver platter. That is where you are losing credibility within this community.
Yes it does need some sprucing up and some consideration toward the changing demographics.
When there were 8,000+ students in K-12 in the 70s fields and athletic venues were a priority.
Now in 2012-13 there are 6,230 seniors maybe athletics have shifted.
Maybe smoother, safer paths through Bird Park would get seniors out and walking more.
Is a zero entry pool a prerequisite for senior water aerobics?
How about an exercise room at the rec center?
The times they are a'changin!
2:00 and still nothing on the Municipal website or Lebomag. So much for the rumor about the presentation being on their website by morning.
Elaine
Anonymous 12:58 PM, you hit the nail on the head. There is no place to really walk around here for exercise without battling traffic. I walked the Washington Road corridor this morning. The sidewalk near Rollier’s is closed now and one has to zig-zag across the streets to get from point A to point B. Just when you start feeling like the you are getting some exercise you have to stop, press a crossing signal and wait forever for the light to change. Are there other places to walk – like Virginia Manor? – Sure, but then you have to get into the care and drive there first.
Some kind of walking path in Bird Park would benefit this community as a whole much more than building fields or turf for kids playing sports!
The streets are beginning to look a lot like Dormont. The comic book hasn't helped
but the staff healthcare and pensions keep going up.
Anonymous 2:34 has a good suggestion about Bird Park, but then you have to remember that it's for the dogs, too.
I agree walking around Lebo is no picnic, but then neither is driving. Our streets are clogged with moving traffic, as well as parked cars and trucks. Cars park the wrong way on my street and seem to never get ticketed.
I remember when cars had to be off the streets by midnight unless you had a real need, such as a driveway repair.
For the safety of everyone, people need to slow down and not park on the streets.
234--you said you walked near Rolliers but it's too congested. You mention the Manor but having to get into your car to get there. And how would you get to Bird park? Give me a break. That park is fine the way it is. It's supposed to be a little rough. If you want to walk laps on a pristine surface, go to Char Valley high school. Oh, the irony of you posting that on a thread related to one guy who wants things his way. Oy.
I'm glad 7:16 has told everybody Bird Park is fine the way it is! That's settled, now no more silly talk about seniors walking, at least not here.
Or moms with jogging strollers.
7:16 I guess you've never visited the walking/jogging/exercise trail at at South Park.
Quite pleasant with the stations, gazebo and benches.
Yeah I know drive to South Park! Funny how only 'key' interest are to be satisfied in the bubble!
Are you two serious? Bird park is the only place in the town where you can walk? Or are you two related to Dave Franklin? Gimme gimme gimme. And yes, I've been to South Park. As you know that's a county park and has no covenant prohibiting development. Bird Park does. So go walk somewhere else. I know a lot of people who enjoy it the way it is.
Speaking of Franklin, still waiting on an asnwer, Davey Boy: how did you get Kelly's presentation? Where is/was it available publicly? For someone who is quick to push his agenda on people you sure know how to hide fromtough questions.
First off 8:19 the Bird Park walking trail was only meant to be an example of what the aging MTL population might consider recreation. I don't think anyone has a plan that they're going to present at the next board meeting.
I'm not even sure if their is interest in such a thing.
Maybe it's a mountain biking course, a skate board park, I don't know there are other rec activities besides those played on AstroTurf.
It was just a thought, a suggestion as how to keep MTL a vibrant attractive community, to play on our strengths rather than compete with younger, more undeveloped areas like Cranberry, Peters, etc.
The YSA has gone to great lengths to suggest that Turfed fields are the only way to keep Lebo moving, and that's not true.
It's only myopic. Please don't fall into the trap of making everything an argument. Let's brainstorm, figure out how we can get the most bang for the most people for the smallest buck!
If it was just an example why the quick and nasty response? Ifyou had started by writing "for example..." it would have been clear.
Anon 7:16:
You just don't get it. Bird Park is fairly centrally located compared to "the manor"...and I guess you want our elderly population tripping over tree roots and lumps while they try and get some exercise around this place?
You must be an athletic supporter!
7:16 You are one funny person. Bird Bark HAS a parking lot and it's FREE (unless all the teachers haven't taken it over)...and so I guess you think folks should drive to another residential area and park in front of someone else's house?
As for walking at CV, that is more ridiculous than anything posted on this subject so far. The POINT of this is recreation here at home, hello??
And you have to be careful not to trip over the migrant workers that hang out in Bird Park from time to time. Our police have to chase them off because if they are arrested because they are illegally here INS never comes to get them. I saw them for myself this past spring waiting around for someone to hire them. I reported it to the police and they knew about this issue which happens from time to time. I saw about 25 migrant workers standing around Bird Park that first warm day this past spring. And not they weren't playing soccer...How do I know? No soccer balls, boots and jeans helped me figure that out.
My guess is that 7:16 isn't a fan of Mt. Lebanon Village, you know, the organization that works like the devil to help keep our elderly living here while the local taxing authorities and self-centered sports enthusiasts could give a hoot.
Hey 7:16, why not just send everyone to the cemetery for a nice walk - how uplifting! Except there is no parking since the municipal vehicles are there.
Ok everybody from now on just so we don't confuse 7:16 label all comments. Here are some examples. Oops 7:16 this is an EXAMPLE.
Others labels are:
suggestion
Idea
Plan
Concept
and of course... There is always sarcasim.
Bird Park is centrally located to the Manor? Wow, looks like you're qualified to serve on the school board. Thats like saying Baltimore is centrally located to Europe.
And what is this crap about the "elderly"? And explain to me how tearing up Bird Park for old people and moms isn't catering to yet another special interest group? I thought the point of this entire thread was to point out how irritating it is that our commissioners might end up doing just that? Get your head straight. And stay the hell out of Bird Park. If the "elderly" want somehwere to walk, don't you think they should go somewhere with better lighting and visible to passersby for safety?
10:39 Bird Park is a more central location to the heart of Mt. Lebanon THAN the manor, (you can read, can’t you?) and it has parking. A good portion of our residents is elderly. Having a safe place to walk in Mt. Lebanon would benefit ALL residents, not just a special interest group unlike turfing a field. A fitness walking trail would serve the elderly and other age groups. You may not like the concept, but that’s the way it is.
10:39 who the hell are you to dictate to people to "stay the hell out of Bird Park"?!!!!
MTL isn't your private fiefdom and nobody made you king!
Who the hell are you to dictate that "you may not like the concept but that's the way it is"? Way to go, Franklin Jr.
Stick to the point of the post. Oh, and try reading it first. And Bird Park is no more "centrally located" than any other place. there's parking at the mall. Just go there.
You're really not to bright are you 4:03.
The original topic of this chain was artificial surfaces and discretionary spending on recreation.
There may be a certain segment of the community that may consider making Bird Park accessible to more walikng or jogging.
So whether you like it or not, we will discuss the idea.
Is it worth while, does it have support or is it a hairbrained scheme, doesn't end with you.
You have no say in what we do or not do. You can voice your objections, spell out the ideas shortcomings certainly. If you don't want to engage in civil discourse, we heard your vote, it's been noted.
If you have some constructive ideas, by all means present them. We may like them and join you or we may not like them and try to explain why. It doesn't have to be a fight.
We'll talk about it and if we find it feasible, we'll see about presenting it to the commissioners.
4:03 needs anger management support. Ordering people to "stay the hell out of Bird Park"? Get a grip buddy.
6:41, 4:03 must think they're a god, or king or something.
Not only does he decree that everyone stay out of Bird Park, But commands that if you want to walk you must do it at the mall!
These past few posts are exactly why most residents do not support your position Elaine. In fact, it will accomplish just the opposite.
429, You're a clown. I'm the one who pointed out that the stupid bird park idea is off topic. Then you come back and point out the point of the thread..uh, duh. Thanks for backing me up. To the other nasty whiners, I didn't declare anything. So relax. My point was that someone brought up putting paved paths or sidewalks in bird park for a tiny segment of the population which is just what franklin did with the turf. Pretty hard concept to grasp. As for staying out of the park my other poiint is if you don't like it the way it is, the way it was designed and is supposed to be and the way most peple like it, then go somewhere else. I'm sick of the tiny minority in this town crying so loud they get their way. There are plenty of places to walk you jusy happen to not like them. Well, too bad. Then don't walk. You and Franklin can probably come up with a plan to take over the park and isntall a multilevel indoor rec center complete with carpeted walking trails that pipe in music and have coffee booths every quarter mile. Bunch of bullies on this blog. You all rip people for having different opinions so yure just as closedminded as the people you criticize.
10:47 AM, Out of 124 comments, how many of these past FEW posts are you talking about? I am curious.
Come on. You can do better than that.
Elaine
11:08 - have you never heard of brainstorming?
Plus, I never said and I don't believe anyone suggested paving in Bird Park. I'd vehemently oppose that type of path!
I was thinking about smooth out the trails, fixing erosion, eliminating roots that kind of thing. I've visited a number of areas where they used a fine grey gravel, I think it's shales that is comfortable to walk or run on, doesn't get slick in the rain and doesn't overwhelm the natural beauty.
Is it feasible in Bird, Twin Hills, or around the golf course... I don't know.
I had no idea any one could get so worked up over an idea, especially one that one couldn't understand or comprehend.
You really have to unwind your knickers 11:08, you're cutting off the oxygen to your brain.
You had no idea anyone could get so worked up yet this is your fourth nasty and insulting reply. One of the requirements is that you have a brain in the first place. Its funny that you all will jump and down about some guy "brainstorming" about turfing a field but walking paths in a park meant to be rustic is just fine. And if someone disagrees with you its ok to insult them. I see. So really you and the turf guy are the same person.
If you want to walk in the park and don't want your precious little footies to get dirty here's an idea. Instead of sitting on a blog and being mean and childish why not follow the example set by the boy scouts and some nature groups. Go down there and help clean uop the dead trees and help grade the existing paths, help cut back some of the weed growth and help pick up the trash left on the field by Lebo's finest spoiled brats. Try doing something instead of whining.
7:17 yep sure. Think about this brilliant suggestion. There are even greater savings to be had. Everybody grab a paint brush and start dedoing all the crosswalk lines. When we're finished that we can mop the floors and clean the restrooms in the municipal buildings.
Let's eliminator the overtime for snow removal. Everybody will be responsible for clearing the snow off the street in front of their home.
7:17 is really onto something there.
7:17 that's the rough and rumble American individualism and spirit we need more if here in Mt. Lebanon.
History tells us that Daniel Boone brought down a grizzly with a knife and his bare hands.
The least we can do as Lebonites is rush out and tackle a deer. Kill it, gut and dress it. It'll put manly food on the table and provide hides for moccasins for our tender little footsies.
There the municipality has saved a ton of money on sharpshooters, increased the yields from our vegetable gardens, provided outdoor recreation and instilled in our youth the can do, American spirit that made this country great!
9:26 you're not too bright are you. You missed the entire point. But feel free to keep commenting and patting yourself on the back. You're the smartest person you know.
Anon and gone, no you missed the point... waaaayyyy back.
MTL is and expects to continue to be one of the regions premier communities, or at least I hope it strives for that honor.
But to maintain that position there is a cost and there needs to be a plan.
One thing Lebofields IS correct about is we can't sit still and rest on our laurels. Unfortunately, he's still thinking like it's 1970.
Unfortunately, our demographics have changed. If we're going to attract affluent 50+ we must change our branding much like retailers and the automotive industry.
Artificial Turfed soccer fields aren't going to sell McMansions, but other amenities might.
A vibrant business district, golf course, tennis facilities and safe attractive parks.
The community becomes what you value and with a declining K-12 population sports may not be it.
1:16 Safe attractive parks? I wasn't aware of the crime wave. Tennis courts? Are you kidding me? Talk about being stuck in 1970. If you think that's what brings people to a particular community then you probably shouldn't write more comments.
Keep it up, Franklin.
3:54 the tennis courts seem to be from what I'm told one of self- sustaining recreational venue here.
First off, I'm not Franklin. I don't like his groups artificial turf idea. I do like the tennis courts, golf course, ice rink. Unfortunately, they cost money to keep in good condition. The pool stinks, though I'm not sure if it's because of lousy maintenance or just plain poor supervision.
While I'll heard and noted your criticism I've yet to hear one suggestion as to where go from here by you. What are your proposals. Do absolutely nothing is a legitimate idea, foolish but legitimate.
Shut down all recreational facilities is another. Where do you think we invest our money and energies. It's your day to run the zoo, McGrew!
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