It has been nine days since this comment appeared on Lebo Citizens. There is no admission that you had things wrong, 6:12 PM.
"Seems to me the YSA and now the SAB have consistently supported improved quality *and* quality of fields.
Contrary to Kelly's blog post, the Robb Hollow field would *not* have been a full-sized field. So the ROI of developing it would have been pretty low, with respect to gains for organized sports.
So Kelly's plan was not "exactly what they [SAB] asked for." It would have left essentially unchanged the burden on existing fields for games, which would do little to improve the state of overuse which you rightly mention as a concern of YSA/SAB.
Just wanted to set that straight.
December 16, 2013 at 6:12 PM"Trib reporter Matt Santoni asked Commission Kelly Fraasch about the Commission's decision to turf Middle and Wildcat, instead of spending the money on improving Robb Hollow Park and the municipal golf course. Mt. Lebanon leader questions turf fund
An unidentified sports person here expressed that he or she was unaware of Kelly's plan and was under the assumption that it was for a dog park only. I have been saying all along that the McNeilly/ Robb Hollow swap was sabotaged because Dave Franklin had his sights set on developing McNeilly next. Well here it is, in the last paragraph of the Trib article.
“From a field-sports, development perspective, it doesn't bother me that those restrictions are there on McNeilly,” Franklin said. “There's nothing to suggest we can't develop it five, 10, 15 years from now.”I don't know what else to do, to get the community to see how we are being taken for a bunch of chumps. Linfante, Bendel, and Brumfield should be ashamed of themselves.
78 comments:
More than anyone Linfante was taken for a chump. She traded her deer-kill vote for sports and the athletic clan took advantage of her.
How does it feel to b e the chump on the commission Kristen?
What is more infuriating is that someone with obviously inaccurate information feels obliged to "set the record straight" ON ELAINE'S BLOG that supposedily reaches 5 or 6 wing nuts and the community magazine- the infomation source so residents can get involved, covers none of it.
We do get silly iphone photos of Christmas lights, disparaging remarks about grocery store patrons, but when it comes to million dollar community investments--- nada, nothing, mums the word.
The most recent (2012)official Municipal plan estimate to develop McNeilly into 2 full sized regulation field sports fields, plus 1 regulation baseball field, plus stadium seating, a concession stand, lavatories, paved and lighted parking lot for 200 cars was $3.5 million. Since then, the unofficial back-room number has risen to about $5.0 million because of some major sanitary sewer issues associated with the property.
When this boondoggle was initially foisted on the taxpaying public, the 2004 development estimate by Gateway Engineers was $1.75 million ! This does not include the purchase price for the 25 acre land parcel alone at $1.832 million, financed with a $2.0 million bond issue, bringing the land cost with interest at around $2.5 million so far. A 2009/10 land appraisal that has not seen public daylight came out at about $1.0 million.
Yeah, Franklin's comment fits in perfectly with the McNeilly tale of governmental mismanagement and insanity.
Kristin Linfante will undoubtedly become Commission president in January for 2014.
I read Kelly's comment to infer that the state could still make a decision....regardless of the current plan.
Why can't these be mutually exclusive?
4:55 PM, I am not sure if this answers your question, but the Robb Hollow deal was supposed to be part of the Rec bond that instead, went entirely to the swimming pool. The unassigned funds, now designated for artificial turf for the Cedar Blvd. Realtors' Tour, could have been used to go toward Robb Hollow. It can't go down now because Bendel, Brumfield, and Linfante had other ideas. Bendel, as I understand it, suggested that ANOTHER bond be issued for Robb Hollow. Fool us once, shame on you. Fool us twice, shame on us!
Elaine
"Cedar Blvd. Realtors Tour!"
That cracked me up so much I almost broke a rib, but then reality set in and started to cry because its so true.
Turfing Wildcat/Middle does so little to relieve field overuse and demand.
We end up with the same number of fields, that won't be played on in a thunderstorms.
Sure they dry out a little faster, but are rainouts going to displace the scheduled games after the storm?
2 full sized regulation field sports fields, plus 1 regulation baseball field, plus stadium seating, a concession stand, lavatories, paved and lighted parking lot for 200 cars was $3.5 million.
How is that possible? $3.5 million has to be just for the concession stand and lavatories. Someone must have made a boo boo.
4:38, Gateway estimates once again seems to be part of the problem, doesn't it?
5:46 makes you wonder, doesn't it?
They're telling us now it is about $1 million just to turf 2 fields that already exsist, already have lights, parking, concession stand, restrooms and bleachers.
But they're going to hack 2 full size sports fields, 1 ball field Out of an undeveloped, wooded lot and add all the amenities for $3.5 million!
But at least we will have that special Washington Crosswalk to look forward to in 2014.
Wait a minute-- is that an semi-urban myth? Let me check on fact-finder...
Question.
Why would a Parks & Rec board member support or lobby for a plan that does nothing more than turf two existing sports fields over a plan that adds two fields, trails, dog park and pavillion/outdoor classroom that serves a broader range of residents?
No parks and rec board here, only parks. We could use a little bit of Ron Swanson "ism".
How about this Ron Swanson ism.
"I call this turf ‘n’ turf. It’s a 16 oz T-bone and a 24 oz porterhouse."
Only in this case, it is Wildcat and Middle.
Elaine
Thanks for pointing out my error, it is indeed just Parks Advisory Board.
I was confused considering that that board's liason to the SAB was so focused on turf.
Now five days and counting and 6:12 still sees no need to admit they were wrong concerning the facts of Kelly's Robb Hollow plan.
So much for their interest in setting the record straight!
This is perfext example of why residents and taxpayers shouldn't take comments made here, by board members or even commissioners at face value.
Its why we need a PIO and community magazine that puts the topics in print so that the community can make informed decisions and participate.
I will be so happy to see Kristin Linfante as Commission President. SHe has true leadership ability and a clear vision for Mt. Lebanon.
She's never in town to be President! Who are you kidding?
5:49 pm. What kind of kool-aid are you drinking? FOR REAL. VOTING FOR million dollar TURF projects when people are struggle with sewage in their basements due to neglected infrastructure? And you think she has a vision for Mt Lebanon?
5:49 PM, that was an early Christmas present.
This post is about how KristEn Linfante, John Bendel, and Dave Brumfield chose to turf Middle and Wildcat fields because they think artificial turf is the driving force which brings people to Mt. Lebanon. They chose to bulldoze the community. They blew up the McNeilly swap so that Franklin can have more turfed fields in a few years.
What those three commissioners did to Mt. Lebanon is disgraceful.
Elaine
5:49, I haven't been following Linfante very closely.
Would you, or perhaps she could, fill me in on hervision for MTL, please?
The only thing I know she is for is culling deer and I vaguely remember that she was in favor of the $150 million version of the high school project.
How is that Linfante can be president of a commission and rarely attend meetings?
How is that Linfante can advocate for killing deer endlessly when deer are not killing people in Mt Lebanon?
What IS killing people in Mt Lebanon?
Hmmm... how is the man who was recently critically injured by a motorist in Mt Lebanon?
Where is the commission response to that tragedy?
Don't call the tragedy an ACCIDENT because it isn't one when citizens have continually begged for improved safety on Washington Road year after year.
I'd say that TRAGEDY was predictable.
But the commission wasn't talking about TRAGEDIES in the days that followed. They were talking about and voting to spend "unassigned funds" for TURF.
"Unassigned funds" were intentionally set aside by our municipal manager to fund pet projects for his favorite commissioners and employees while neglecting public safety.
Is the "record straight"?
Plus 12:53, why is a Parks Advisory Board member not supporting a plan that adds to our parks buy instead lobbying for a plan that does nothing more than turf the communities two nicest fields?
Is he on the wrong board?
No, the commission majority appointed him to the PAB because he supports their agenda. The commission reviews applications from residents who want to serve on a board or authority whenever there is a vacancy. When commissioners want turf, it is very easy to make that happen through appointments.
I watched the June budget retreat video and decided that we are being governed by a bunch of hypocrites. One of the questions asked was what to do with surplus funds. Dave Brumfield said that it is hard to predict how those funds should be spent without having a crystal ball. They discussed the survey results from 146 residents. Turf wasn't real high on the list. Here is the list from the Public Satisfaction survey.
Here are the results of the commission survey if there was a financial windfall.
Commission survey results
Elaine
So, in effect commissioners stacked an advisory board with someone that would push their agenda.
Convenient!
"Cut interest earnings" was President Elect Linfante's brilliant idea, right behind cutting seasonal programs, and the golf course - all producing income for the municipality. Commission Budget retreat at approximately the 1:00:00 mark
Yep, a born leader with clear vision for Mt. Lebanon.
Elaine
Elaine:
Do you have any evidence that 6:12, that erroneously set the record straight on the specifics of Kelly's Robb Hollow plan and 5:49 that thinks Linfante is commission president material are one and the same?
If they are, and so missed the specifics of the Robb Hollow plan could their opinion of Linfante be equally messed up?
Tell us anonymous spirit, one way to clear up doubt would be to list Kristen's visions of the Mt. Lebanon that might be.
Robb Hollow Park along Cedar would be perfect for junior soccer and lacrosse fields. They better grab it before its too late. The fields crowd should not gamble on getting McNeilly. It will probably never happen.
I wonder if anyone has considered that by purchasing the McNeilly property it now generates no tax income for the either the school district or the municipality.
If the property is assessed at 1,000,000 that means approx. $26,000/year.
If Kelly's plan had been adopted for Robb Hollow and McNeilly allowed to be sold off the $26,000 in annual tax revenue could be applied to field maintenance, infrastructure, pedestrian crosswalks or deer control.
No Brumfield, Bendel, Linfante and the myopic SAB would rather let McNeilly sit vacant and undeveloped, costing residents thousands in lost revenue.
Shortsighted isn't it.
Had the McNeilly property been allowed to be developed as residential or commercial property the tax revenue would have been much, much greater than $26,000/year.
With the McNeilly property in private hands the school district could eliminate student parking fees, give out $5,000 annually in performance bonuses for teachers and have another $10,000/yr or so in mad money for 3D printers, books or other supplies. With no tax rate hike!!!
Stay snug and asleep in your warm beds, Lebo taxpayers!
11:08 PM, whatever that amount is, multiply it by 5, 10, or 15. Dave Franklin, another Mt. Lebanon visionary, sees McNeilly with new fields in fifteen years or so. By then, we will be ready to replace the turf at Middle and Wildcat for the SECOND time.
Unless something drastic happens, that is how it is going down, thanks to Bendel, Brumfield, and Linfante.
Elaine
Yep an example of that Linfante vision for Mt. Lebanon hun, 5:49?
Keep property undeveloped and off the tax rolls.
Smart, real smart!
'Tis the season to spend unwisely, fa la la la la la la la!"
I believe that Kelly Fraasch drove to Harrisburg to work out the McNeilly swap. Yeah, you may come back with "All Hail Kelly," but she is the only commissioner now who has my respect. B,B, and L voted for spending excess tax dollars on turfing two fields, instead of going toward Robb Hollow. The Rec Bond was to go toward the pool, Robb Hollow, and the golf course, but staff and some commissioners wanted to spend it all on the pool. In case anyone is counting, that makes it two times where B,B, and L stuck it to Kelly, and the rest of Mt. Lebanon.
Elaine
Elaine, your referring to the Mr. Franklin, Parks Advisory Board member correct?
Why is he talking about a Sports Advisory Board future project and not lobbying for development of the Robb Hollow Park?
Yes, Dave Franklin is on the Parks Advisory Board and PAB representative on the Sports Advisory Board. Good question, 8:10 AM. Why don't you ask him. You can find his email on his Lebo Fields blog.
I have some questions for you, 8:10 AM. Why wouldn't any members of the Environmental Sustainability Board speak against turfing Middle and Wildcat when I asked them? Why did Kristen lie when she said that the ESB was in favor of turfing those fields? Why aren't any of the minutes from the ESB on the municipal website?
Elaine
The answer to your questions in my opinion Elaine are, being honest about their agendas isn't in their best interest. Plus they don't have to respond.
Its like 6:12, the subject of this original post.
They were hell bent on getting the facts straight for your readers. But, they were proven wrong.
So now, they disappear back into the woodwork with no admission that maybe they/we need more info on ALL the plans.
There's no reason why this Wildcat/Middle turf project must proceed immediately. With the pool project getting under way the contractors are going to need valuable Main park parking space for staging and storage.
So take this spring to really flesh out the details of Kelly's and Bendel's plan. Get the numbers right, figure out which serves the greatest numbers of community.
Nah we gotta have it NOW! Just like we had to have Twin Hills and McNeilly NOW!
Both of which sit pretty much unused.
Here's more questions.
There are 6 members of the PAB beside Franklin, plus Donellan. Not one has an opinion on Kelly's plan for the public.
If not here, at least in the community magazine or as a contribution to Lebomag.
Kelly's plan includes a pavillion, fire pit, outdoor classroom, walking path, cleans up a gateway to the Main Park and not one, not one single, solitary Park Advisory Board member has an opinion they'll share with the public.
Not one speaks up to "set the record straight" on the details of Kelly's plan. Not one!
Even the US Supreme Court allows disenting opinions.
From About.com:
"A dissenting opinion is an opinion written by a justice who disagrees with themajority opinion. In the US Supreme Court, any justice can write a dissenting opinion, and this can be signed by other justices."
The level of ignorance, stupidity, and treachery involved in Mt. Lebanon politics isn't for me. I'll happily turn to a world of being a blind sheep marching along with no care in the world over dealing with this crap.
We can't blame it on the Democrats because our State Representative and State Senator, both Democrats, support the Robb Hollow/McNeilly swap.
I have been told to follow the money. Where does it take us? To the Recreation Department. To the Manager. To the Sports Advisory Board.
Who screwed up the bidding process for the pool? The Recreation Department. The Manager.
Who is advising the Commission? The Manager. The Sports Advisory Board. The Parks Advisory Board. The Recreation Manager.
Who can stop this? No one.
Elaine
11:30 am. Damion. The appropriate term is "sheeples" // people who follow like sheep without thinking.
Did you guys happen to see that story about Rachel Washburn on Fox News?
If someone can make the case that an investment in turf and athletics can produce women like her I'd not only support turfing every square inch of Mt Lebanon, but I'd offer my voluntary services to pass a tin cup around town for Mr Franklin to see if we can get more funds for athletics!
I think that I've just found a way to shorten commission meetings and hopefully increase attendance at commission discussion meetings.
Commissioners can use say the phrase... "6:12!"
That way everyone will know they're supposedily trying to set the record straight on the topic at hand... even though they have no clue on the details... and they no intention of discussing it further!
Could cut those meetings down to 10-15 minutes tops and get everyone back up to the Saloon real quick.
Read what Sen. Matt Smith says about USC's
Outdoor Classroom in his latest newsletter.
Kelly proposed an outdoor classroom for Robb Hollow. Funny thing, Matt isn't writing about turf.
Elaine
One would think the Enviromental Sustainability Board would be lobbying and pushing for Kelly's Outdoor Classroom at Robb Hollow.
And the Garden Club too.
Or the Mt. Lebanon Nature Conservancy. From their website:
"The purpose of the Mt. Lebanon Nature Conservancy is to promote the enhancement, growth and careful use of Mt. Lebanon’s green space. Its purpose is also to foster an appreciation and respect for the environment and for the interdependent relationship that exists between people and nature.
Since 1984, the Mt. Lebanon Nature Conservancy has been working to promote the enhancement and careful use of Mt. Lebanon’s green space. Because the Municipality is mature, there is little green space left, so we in the Conservancy take this responsibility very seriously. We also work to foster an
appreciation and respect for the environment. Our School in the Park Program introduces Mt. Lebanon third graders to learning directly from nature. Our Invasives Task Force is working diligently to remove invasive plant species from our parks. Join Us!"
So where are all these groups?
Elaine
There is not a commissioner left or newly elected who will ever know how much influence the professional staff has in the decision making process.
Mt Lebanon residents and children do not need an outdoor classroom. They can learn everything they need to know about sustainability and environmental education from watching the turf be installed on Cedar Boulevard and then hopefully, they can observe the same process again at McNeilly a few years down the road.
Then someday, if they are lucky and under close supervision, the children can walk on the turf and imagine what it must have been like to play sports among butterflies, birds, worms, grasshoppers, ladybugs, flowers, and trees.
This plan for turf, promoted by our three commissioners, is cost-effective and forward thinking. The children will not need to travel to USC’s Outdoor Classroom, Sewickley’s Fern Hollow Nature Center, Pittsburgh’s Frick Environmental Center, Fox Chapel’s Beechwood Farms Reserve, South Park, North Park, or the Audubon Society of Western PA for environmental education. It would not be right to have the children leave their own community for such experiences. The children will learn everything they need to know about the environment right here at home.
In contrast to the multi-purpose turf plan, Robb Hollow is a terrible idea. As you heard in the November Commission discussion, there just isn’t room for the plan put forth by Commission Fraasch. While Commission Fraasch may have been blindsided, it's very clear now that If her plan went forward, Public Works would have trouble parking its leaf collecting trucks.
The leaf collecting trucks are very important because without them residents would have to mulch their leaves in place, providing natural sustenance to their own lawns. They would need to rely less on Chemlawn and fertilizers, and our air quality might improve from reducing truck emissions.
But if we don’t have an unremitting air quality problem here in Allegheny County, how will we motivate our children to learn about how air pollution elevates risk for cancer. How will we teach them why so many children and families struggle from the debilitating and expensive impact of asthma.
That’s why it is also a silly idea to cut back on leaf collection to make room for an outdoor classroom and multi-purpose park. The leaf collection practices will illustrate to the children how sticking with old ideas when new ideas come along, helps our community. For example, those rows of leaves on the road illustrate just how large our roads really are since the cars seem to have no problem going right by them. We need those large roads because we need big cars and to drive fast. Those roads are for leaves and cars, not pedestrians, not bike lanes, and absolutely not for play.
This is environmental education in Mt Lebanon and I am sure glad my children can learn about it by looking outside their windows and dreaming about turf.
Robb Hollow without fields is no better use of our money than turfing existing fields. We have many pressing needs in our existing parks. The question is not, where can we throw millions at, it's why are we throwing millions at it? Why add a new park when we can't take care of what we already have? And just for the record. PAB opinions regarding fields carries no more weight than this blog with our commission.
Hi Bruce, I was hoping you would chime in. I think some members of the PAB carry more weight than others. Unfortunately, you aren't one of them.
It wasn't that we were adding a new park. There were certain restrictions associated with McNeilly due to the grant money we received. Kelly was able to transfer those limitations to Robb Hollow, in order for us to develop or unload McNeilly. McNeilly was a bad idea from the beginning.
An expert in govt. affairs and Lebo resident had approached the commission a while back and knew how to raise those restrictions starting at the Federal level and working down, a much easier approach, but Kristen Linfante never followed through with the resident. Of course, she was the wrong person for the job, since she had some history, shall we say, with this resident in the past.
So Kelly picked up the pieces and was able to negotiate a swap with the State, when she went to Harrisburg. Unfortunately, her fellow commissioners saw to it, several times, that all funds allocated for Robb Hollow were spent elsewhere.
Kelly's plan for Robb Hollow has been discussed here before. Obviously, it was never meant to be, thanks to Dave Brumfield, Kristen Linfante, John Bendel, Dave Franklin, David Donnellan (Recreation), Tom Kelley (Public Works), and Steve Feller (Manager). By the way, all of those people were aware of the progress that Kelly made with the State.
Elaine
Elaine, if that expert in government affairs is Steve Diaz then he may be interested in reading what Laura Lilley had to say about him in her email correspondence with Merle Jantz.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!!
Yes, it is, John. Do I need to file a RTK, or can you help me?
Elaine
I was all for RH when it had fields. W/O I am not, at least the top half. I'm not sure this swap thing is as sweet or practicable as presented. The problem with McNielly is location, location, location. It is a White Elephant. Development is questionable, again, location. IMO, since no fields are included it is just another foolhardy attempt to spend money we don't have, especially the upper part. Just building an access road will cost hundreds of thousands. That's money that doesn't make it to existing Parks. Seems to me everyone has to have a grand plan, and in this current environment, they need those plans now. High School, Pool, Fields and Robb Hollow. What next?
Hi Elaine,
I COULD help you, but I'd rather see everyone else file a RTK just to see if Mr Feller gives them the same response that he gave to me.
Did you know that [according to Mr Feller] all emails are exempt from the PA RTK law? Also, Mr Feller told me that Mt Lebanon doesn't keep emails on their server - just on their employees hard drives, so if the employees don't want to give something up or they happened to delete the email (OOPS!) then the requestor is SOL!
I'm still waiting for my last request. It's due today. Eeeewww, I just can't wait to see what Santa has placed in my mailbox!
The suspense is killing me!
I think that everyone should request copies of the email communications between Susan Morgans, Merle Jantz and Laura Lilley. It's interesting reading to say the least! I was suprised to read what they had to say about various people.
Maybe our former police chief Frank Brown should also make a request? Merle Jantz brought Frank's name up also.
Frank, I would have voted for you for commissioner if it would have been possible. I don't know what Merle was referring to...
John, what Steve Feller is not true. According to the PA Office of Open Records,
"Local Agencies : Any political subdivision, intermediate unit, or charter, public trade or vocational school [or] any local, intergovernmental, regional or municipal agency, authority, council, board commission or similar governmental entity."
Also:
"Records can take many forms, including papers, letters, maps, books, tapes, photographs, film or sound recordings, information stored or maintained electronically and a data-processed or image-processed documents. Note that e-mails can also be a form of public records, subject to any exceptions."
You have the right to appeal, if you do not agree with his response.
"The appeal must be submitted to the Office of Open Records within 15 business days of the mailing date of the Agency’s response." The burden of proof is on the agency, in your case, Steve Feller. Dan Miller had provided information at his RTK session, which I scanned and posted here. If you need help, let me know.
Elaine
12:45
The latest plan for Robb Hollow was developed after the three pro-turf commissioners shut down the possibility of adding additional fields up there.
So yes, the original plan was:
1. One full sized field (preferably field turf if I remember) on the upper section where the old softball field was.
2. One junior sized field at the end of the public works yard that is essentially and eyesore exists only to park unused construction equipment. This could have been turf or grass.
3. Walking trails like bird park
4. A swap of the state use grant of McNeilly to Robb Hollow which would free the municipality from being forced to develop McNeilly (no one has come forth with a workable plan and it has been I think 15 years!)
At the time this proposal was put out there the sports groups were clamoring for more field space. After the plan was put out the sports groups (or more specifically, the leadership of the sports groups) decided to be more specific about their wishes and they made their wish for turf at either Mellon or Middle/Wildcat clear at that time.
The justification for the turf has been many different things from more field time (Robb Hollow would have provided this in spades) more foot traffic to local business, and now real estate agents being able to show off the turf.
For me, what has become clear is that the leadership of the sports groups did not communicate this plan for additional field space AND turf to its members, for if they did, they would have lost the ability to turf Wildcat and Middle fields or Mellon because MORE field space PLUS turf at near the same cost of providing turf at Wildcat and Middle would clearly be the best option.
Add to this the additional need now to develop McNeilly (I have heard anywhere from $1 million to provide a simple access path to $12 million for a full blown sports park) and developing Robb Hollow made all the sense in the world.
To be be sure, access to, and parking for, the upper field at Robb Hollow would have had to have been addressed. This would not have been an impossible task.
For the sports group leadeership the idea of turf stuck in their head and the idea of turfing Mellon or Wildcat/Middle was so burned into their brains that they missed the boat on a far better plan for not just the children of Mt. Lebanon, but the taxpayers as well.
The Robb Hollow Plan has so many benefits over the singular turfing of Wildcat/Middle even it were to be developed in segments over time its hard to imagine why the Parks Board or SAB wouldn't support it.
It adds fields!
It adds walking trails!
It adds a pavillion/classroom!
It adds a dog park!
It gets rid of the McNeilly albatros!
And
It beautifies an entry point into Lebo!
Thats for the realtors, because they don't realize for the SAB to reap any substantial field sign revenue they're going to wallpaper Wildcat/Middle with advertising. Yuk!
10:39 PM, it appears that Dave Franklin decided on his August 14, 2012 post that Robb Hollow would not work. That is why the PAB and the SAB wouldn't support it.
There are still unanswered questions. Next SAB meeting is January 9. Maybe we will get some answers then. Or not.
Elaine
The largest field size I am able to find in a version of Kelly's proposal is 60x100.
Is that the size you all are talking about?
Because if so then that is not a full-sized regulation field. Football field is 100yd. plus 2 10-yd end-zones and a regulation soccer field is 70x120.
4:51, one thing you fail to consider is that Kelly's plan serves more than one specific group of residents.
It offers more than just one sports field.
Second, do younger football and soccer teams absolutely need regulation sized field for play and practice?
Can an 8 year old place kicker or punter even kick a ball 40 yards?
So by adding a field sized right for younger players we take the stress off our full-sized fields.
Which if they're up to it, leaves the maintenance and YSA time to keep natural grass fields in playable condition.
From my experience, there's a shortage of fields for practices, not games. Even the less favored sports have been able to play their home games, at home.
I emailed Kelly and asked her because no one else seems to want to go to the source.
Her answer:
"One of my proposals showed a 60 x 100 field because I was told that was regulation size. I had a professional go up and measure the high school field and he found it to be 60 yards in width with 130 yards in length. Robb Hollow would have needed some additional work to make a full size field but it was certainly possible. In the lower section of Robb Hollow near PW, measurements came out about 200 yards length and 45 yards width which would not have been regulation. However that is a big space down there. I thought this would have made an excellent pee-wee/Jr field for our younger kids and keep them off of other fields that need rest time. Imagine what Wildcat/Middle would look like if it had rest time and no pee-wee soccer groups on it. Its already a nice field (one of our best) and to give it rest time would have made it superb.
It is really hard to tell with all the PW equipment laying around down there. If anyone went down there and pulled into PW and looked around they would see the ample space that could be used. Please remember I was clearly told that the sports people did not want the field space, so I have since updated my proposal to not include fields.
Currently the proposal includes a dog park in the lower area which is bigger than the 2.2 acre space on the other side that I was initially looking at and then adding green space to the top half and resurrecting the pavilion we use to have on the top half and taking natural materials from the area and making an outdoor classroom. I can send you photos of using natural resources for an outdoor classroom space. The cost estimates are nothing close to a $300,000 estimate that we gotten from the Engineer for the outdoor classroom. It could be really nice out there. We just need to get the leaf program moved. My ultimate goal is to make that a nice green space so we can actually call it a park. Right now it's an industrial park with little community use and clearly doesn't help property values in the area which is part of the ward I represent. If Main Park looked like Robb Hollow I think the community would be outraged and I am confused that the community isn't as outraged about Robb Hollow. It's a current park that we have allowed to become (quite frankly) a dump and is a major entrance into our community. You asked about the PAB. I believe several members share my vision. A couple still don't understand that this is a park and it should be invested in as any other park Williamsburg, Highland Terrace, etc and again all of the parks have seen tremendous improvements except for Robb Hollow. I believe it is Robb Hollow's turn. If we don't invest in Robb Hollow soon, I believe the Commission should have a serious conversation about changing Robb Hollow and taking it off of the passive park program and not used for the public use because the lack of investment is making it unusable and quite frankly dangerous with the erosion of trails."
Thanks 11:20, most helpful.
Unfortunately, as 4:51 points out, 60 yards wide is not regulation.
8:36, you are right that younger kids would not use the full size field. But older kids would, presumably including HS teams. Who now play on a field that is too narrow. HS coaches would agree with that assessment.
9:33 the shortage pretty clearly seems to impact both practices and games. There are times when making everything fit (which is what folks see) requires trading home dates with other communities.
I'm not sure but maybe 6:12 actually knows a thing or two.
6:12 declared that RH would not have been regulation size, but it was Commissioner Fraasch's opinion that "it was clearly possible to make the change."
Why then, the resistance from the Sports Groups?
8:51 PM, that is the big question. There is no rational explanation to their preference, other than the Daves want it.
Elaine
The "sports groups" do not share their musings about these issues with the parents of the sports players. The only information that is randomly dispensed is that there's a petition for turf on wildcat/whatever and someday maybe we (meaning our kids) will get to use it. So when they *say* they are representing parents of kids in athletics, they are not.
Somebodies don't want more field space, they want turf.
The fields shortage is the direct result of YOUNGER AND YOUNGER KIDS PLAYING BOTH SOCCER AND LACROSSE. New junior fields at Robb Hollow will address this shortage. Period. End of story. The youth sports crowd should immediately support their construction.
9:39 PM, why not get the word out to the other parents?
Elaine
Its bigger than that 9:39.
On pages 18-19 of the Jan/Feb issue of Mt. Lebanon magazine it states:
"Donellan has put together a task force that will present specific recommendations for the project to the Commission on February 11. In addition to Donnellan, the team includes Municipal Engineer Dan Deiseroth, High School Athletic Director John Grogan and representatives from the Mt. Lebanon lacrosse, football, baseball and soccer associations.
The commission directive [pay close attention here people] was that the task force crrate a strategy for field use and a [FEE STRUCTURE] for field use and a fee structure to cove the non-municipal field user fee,..."
If the previous Joint Maintenance Fee was any indication I'd suggest someone better be sharpening their pencils and warming up the old calculators to keep tabs on this affair.
Right off the bat you know where field advertising sign revenue is going to be slotted.
For the person who said Robb Hollow would not be a full sized field up top, perhaps you are right, but I think it could be done pretty easily. Maybe the original proposal was 130 by 50 instead of by 60. No big deal.
Even if 50 was the maximum due to the inability to go any larger, you have to be able to imagine how much a field of that size would reduce usage on the Wildcat/Middle, Mellon, and other fields in the community thereby making them more playable throughout the year.
That appeared to be the goal. To reduce stress on our over-stressed fields by adding more fields. Turfing Wildcat and Middle doesn't do that. It just means we will have to replace the turf that much more quickly because it will still be overused.
Heck, the sports group leadership still want to add lights so there will be people on that field from 6am to 11pm (maybe 10pm because of the light nuisance ordinances, but still).
Listen, the sports groups passed up a major opportunity to get additional field space WITH TURF in order to turf the fields they wanted turfed.
Now that the Mag has written about it, I suspect it is officially a done deal. Too bad. This community has shown once again how it can only look ahead a couple of months but not a couple of years. The Fellers and Donellans of the world should catch this and correct it but they don't have the political will to say that the minority might have a better idea.
9:13 could it possibly be that Feller and Donnellan know where their bread is buttered.
If the sports cabal has the majority on tthe commission and the school board its in the public servants self-interest to play ball by the cabals rules.
Do you really think Fellers and Donnellan will take themselves off the first team for the best interest of the community?
You are correct.
It is kind of an institutional thing around here with the inmates running the asylum.
Remember way back in the day when former Superintendent John Allison expressed reservations about spending so much on the high school project? It wasn't until his last meeting at Super that he said, listen, you can spend the $115 million but you have to understand what you will have to give up on the other side in terms of curriculum enhancements, contracts, etc.
He only felt comfortable confronting the school board with that reality on his way out, but not before. He understood that 7 or 8 school board members against him would be the end of his Superintendent career here. And with the history of supers prior to him, why would he risk it?
Super Tim doesn't rock the boat so he will last some time with the current makeup of the Board.
I guess the point is that appointed officials need to understand politics better than they understand finances. You can survive a long time as a municipal manager or super if you simply say "yes" to the will of the majority no matter how badly those decisions hurt in the long run.
The decisions don't hurt Feller and Donnellan, because unlike private industry, goverment has almost unlimited ability to raise taxes. That is almost unlimited ability as Detroit, Scranton, Harrisburg, and Wilkinburg have discovered.
How long would a company's board of directors sit still for a financial drain on company finances like the McNeilly property or bad investments like Twin Hills.
From Lebomag's article on turf "field improvement" by Susan Fleming Morgans--
"... but also because heavy use makes it impossible to care for the grass properly or to ever let a field “rest.”"
If Wildcat/Middle is in constant use now how does turfing them give the other grass fields a proper "rest"?
Without increasing the number of fields, which the sports people always claimed were all over used, turfing doesn't add rest periods for any of them.
Nor does it add very much in the way of game slots. Of course it can come back on line faster after heavy rains, but you still have a log of rainout games to reschedule and no more fields to play them on!
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