The message defies logic. "Let Our Kids Play Even When It Rains"?? HAHAHA. Yeah, because nothing says torn tendon like a wet, slick artificial surface. Brilliant.
Second, I don't know where you all grew up but when I was a kid, the only time we wanted to play any sport in the rain was under two conditions: it was a pickup game, and we were assured of getting muddy as possible (how many soccer moms will allow their mud-covered child to climb into the backseat of that nice new Lexus SUV with the beige leather interior?). But organized sports? In the rain? Hell no. So once again, it's all about the parents, not the kids.
Third, what a sick ideology. Last time there was hard rain near M/WC fields, not only did it once again flood in the non-floodplain...but there were both hail and lightning. So the message on those signs is "turf is more important to me than my child". The pro turf boys should be proud. I mean, it takes some skill to convince otherwise educated people that image counts for more than human life. I would feign shock and disbelief but at this stage, the Commission has demonstrated anything is possible...with other peoples' money...and a willful disregard for their sworn oath.
The ballfield pictures were taken at around 8:25 this evening. You'll notice the standing water. That's because the lot is paved. Same thing will happen when grass is removed and replaced with plastic and rubber. For those advocating for turf, let me explain really slowly since it seems necessary. When rain hits a natural surface, like grass or dirt, some of the water can seep deeper. There is somewhere for it to go. But when rain hits a solid surface (especially one that was obviously installed unevenly) the water can't go anywhere. K? Got it? It's science. Like second grade level stuff.
Oh, one other glaring issue with the pictures--you'll notice the electric lights and the ambient light. But guess what isn't there? Kids!... So do we really have a shortage of playing slots? Or do we just have a shortage of honesty?
I submit information and opinion to this blog since it seems to be the last bastion of open expression in our community. That said, all you keyboard commandos who like to pick on women and threaten them can save it. If my comments hurt your feelings, feel free to reach out to me. My contact info is available online. I'm happy to discuss my position on this project on the phone or in person. To date, in the last three years, one person had taken me up on the offer. Should I take that personally?
Second, I don't know where you all grew up but when I was a kid, the only time we wanted to play any sport in the rain was under two conditions: it was a pickup game, and we were assured of getting muddy as possible (how many soccer moms will allow their mud-covered child to climb into the backseat of that nice new Lexus SUV with the beige leather interior?). But organized sports? In the rain? Hell no. So once again, it's all about the parents, not the kids.
Third, what a sick ideology. Last time there was hard rain near M/WC fields, not only did it once again flood in the non-floodplain...but there were both hail and lightning. So the message on those signs is "turf is more important to me than my child". The pro turf boys should be proud. I mean, it takes some skill to convince otherwise educated people that image counts for more than human life. I would feign shock and disbelief but at this stage, the Commission has demonstrated anything is possible...with other peoples' money...and a willful disregard for their sworn oath.
The ballfield pictures were taken at around 8:25 this evening. You'll notice the standing water. That's because the lot is paved. Same thing will happen when grass is removed and replaced with plastic and rubber. For those advocating for turf, let me explain really slowly since it seems necessary. When rain hits a natural surface, like grass or dirt, some of the water can seep deeper. There is somewhere for it to go. But when rain hits a solid surface (especially one that was obviously installed unevenly) the water can't go anywhere. K? Got it? It's science. Like second grade level stuff.
Oh, one other glaring issue with the pictures--you'll notice the electric lights and the ambient light. But guess what isn't there? Kids!... So do we really have a shortage of playing slots? Or do we just have a shortage of honesty?
I submit information and opinion to this blog since it seems to be the last bastion of open expression in our community. That said, all you keyboard commandos who like to pick on women and threaten them can save it. If my comments hurt your feelings, feel free to reach out to me. My contact info is available online. I'm happy to discuss my position on this project on the phone or in person. To date, in the last three years, one person had taken me up on the offer. Should I take that personally?
-JE Cannon III
74 comments:
That Turf It sign... why is it planted in natural grass?
If artificial grass is so damn wonderful- why haven't they cover their lawn in it?
Don't they have any pride? Don't they want a "crown jewel" McMansion?
Elaine I have green weeds and a steep hill so Brumfield and crew will have no problems with me replacing my weeds with turf right? The toxic runoff is OK. The smell will be ok with my neighbors? Do I need a permit to do this?
Everyone wants this ordeal to end. Right? The only way it will end if is neighbors talk to each other. Very few people know both sides. If you want to make a difference, walk the streets, go to the ball games, write an op-ed. Youth sports takes kids and parents away from their neighborhoods and their neighbors. The parents think everything is just fine. While the select few know exactly what they are doing, 98% of parents do not.
Thank you, 11:02 PM. I hope you will help to spread the word. Walk the streets, go to the ball games, write an op-ed.
Elaine
Elaine Have you heard about residents being fined for leaving their garbage cans out to long? And for weeds being to high? Weird the people fined were all Anti-Brumfield Anti-Turf folks.
It is amazing how the record of increased number and severity of injuries, and the known health hazards (asthma, cancer, etc) can be so easily overlooked. This is a "solution" that hurts our kids and resolves no serious problem. Someone should do a cost/benefit analysis of the limited amount of "new" time artificial turf "creates" vs. the cost. Even if the health of our children is not important to the pro-turf proponents, perhaps the cost/benefit will be (though efficiency and productivity do not seem to be concepts our commission understands anyway).
Why don't the newspapers do a feature on the turf issue? It seems to be a growing threat to the welfare of children in the region.
Isn't it interesting how the Creative Left only gets new ideas (like let's have yard signs to promote our artificial turf campaign) after and in clear response to your efforts on any issue? I think it is a demonstration of the negativity and lack of imagination on the Turfies. They are as slow-footed as they are callous to the well being of the children of Mt. Lebanon.
Sorry 11:02, you can talk until you are blue in the face, but this boat has sailed. It is a done deal.
Lets look at the message on the sign submitted at the start of this post.
It reads: "Let Our Kids Play." Is this how things work now in the bubble? "Let Our Kids Play," like there is some mean old consortium out there that is keeping Mt. Lebanon kids from playing everything!
Never mind that our lacrosse teams had and have had stellar seasons, this homeowners thinks that because we don't have an artificially turfed field we're subjecting our kids to a world sans play. Oh, if our kids could only play on a "crown jewel" field marked by a tribute to all those caring people that made their success possible... with the hard-earned money of everyone else.
Give me a friggin' break!!!!
Mt. Lebanon kids have been "playing" for years -- successfully.
But lets look at the bigger picture. Is this how it works now in the bubble?
Let hings deteriorate - either thrrough incompetence or mismanagement - then declare we must do something! We must do something really, really expensive to show how our elected representatives are taking care of the kids, of us.
We saw it with the high school, with its taped windows, crummy plumbing, leaky roofs to the SwimCenter that turned into a stinking cesspool. Now its our ballfields!
By all means "Let Our Kids Play", and I supposed the municipal managers too. They've been playing for years.
7:18 don't be so sure they are slowed- footed.
What better way to get support for a 'NEW' garbage collection system than by running a completely incompetent one.
Up until a couple of years ago, did anyone have major complaints about how our garbage was collected?
It wasn't until the progressive, save the planet, green weenies started counting their neighbors garbage bags that it has become a problem.
Don't believe the hype about filling up landfills either. You see they have no problem sending tons and tons of a perfectly upgradable school building to a landfill and will do the same with tons and tons of crumb rubber and plastic grass.
Just watch how Penn Future's Labalme is involved in saving Mother Earth now.
Yes, kids play in the rain, and love to play in the rain. My son played soccer last night at Bird in the mud and loved it. But the issue is not about playing in the rain. It's the fact that practices and games are canceled so the fields don't get destroyed. My daughter is 9 years old, and is heavily involved in dance/ballet. She wanted to try lacrosse this year because lots of her friends were playing. She was very excited to try a new sport and had been practicing for weeks on our driveway. Her team practiced twice the first 5 weeks of the season. Weeks would go by with daily emails that simply stated, "no practice/game tonight." There were several days where it did not rain at all, but the previous day(s) storm left the field unplayable. The same holds true for my daughter's soccer team. At least half of her practices were canceled due to poor field conditions. This is a dissapointment to the kids, and can be a challenge for families with two working parents. I left work early on many occassions to get home and find out pracice was canceled. (even thought it wasn't raining)These comments about gargabe cans, people putting artificial grass in their lawn, and weeds in their yards - are ridiculous and not helpful in the discussion. Please recognize that there is a problem with our fields, YES Kids do want to play and Mt. Lebanon needs to do something to address the problem.
We are not evil because we think field turf is a good idea. And we don't all drive SUV's that we want to keep Mud Free.
JE Cannon III
I can't find your info online. I would like to be the second person to discuss the topic with you.
Thank You.
Bill
Mr. Conaway,
I strongly support and believe in athletic opportunities for kids. I am sorry to hear your daughter's practices are being cancelled. The boys' practices are not being cancelled to the extent you have described.
My daughter has stopped playing sports in Mt Lebanon because the athletic girls are often treated as second-rate citizens in Mt Lebanon. As a case study, why don't you examine the resources, access to practice spaces, cancellation patterns, and tournaments that are available to 9 year olds lacrosse girls in comparison to boys?
It's painful to parent girls in Mt Lebanon. Not only because of this athletics issue, but also because when they grow-up, they may be subjected to further unfair treatment as has occurred with Commissioner Fraasch.
I'll copy the 3:45 post in reference to Fraasch momentarily or maybe Elaine can post a link.
The 3:45 comment from the other post - the brief summary of what happened to Fraasch's plan and how the SAB was created. There's definitely more to the story though...
----
For the latecomers to the fields debate:
Two Years Ago:
Commissioner Fraasch presented another plan to the municipality and commission in 2012 to address concerns presented by the Youth Sports Association.
Parents who have paid dues year after year, and fundraised for the field sports groups represented by the YSA were never provided with information about the plan presented by Commissioner Fraasch, which included the addition of new grass fields. The sports groups did not tell the whole story when they asked parents to make donations to the synthetic turf. The municipality also never distributed her plan to the public.
The alternate field plan addressed the long-standing concerns from the YSA and was also sensitive to the significant unaddressed problems voiced by residents who live in close proximity to Robb Hollow. Those Robb Hollow residents, in contrast to the previously content Vee Lynn drive residents, were suffering because the Robb Hollow park was being misused by public works over a number of years and the passive areas of the park were and continue to be neglected.
The alternate field plan also incorporated ideas that would appeal to a wide range of the community because in addition to new grass fields, the plan incorporated an outdoor classroom, walking trails, a dog park and ideas on how to remedy issues with how public works is currently managing their space.
When Commissioner Fraasch presented her alternate plan to various stakeholders, a select group of residents became quite irrationally irritated by the plan. The select group of residents that opposed her plan worked very hard to discredit her ideas, and behaved in a manner that garnered the attention not only of other commissioners and municipal leadership, but also of the police on more than one occasion. Despite their alarming behaviors, a couple members of the select few were promoted to leadership roles on the SAB and the Turf Task Force. Apparently, the home rule charter does not include behavioral standards for volunteer board leaders or mandate police enforcement of threatening behavior.
Today:
From your viewpoint, do you think the alternate field plan received the fair distribution among residents and sports parents that it warranted? Do you think that parents and residents have received the information they deserve? Do you think the sports groups presented their requests for synthetic turf donations in an objective, honest manner? Did the sports groups tell the whole story? Did they mention the alternate field plan, the EPA’s position on synthetic turf, health concerns of crumb-rubber and plastic fields, or the environmental impact? Did anyone even consider talking to the people who live by Middle/Wildcat before this plan was approved?
Tomorrow:
Drive down Vee Lynn drive and see how you think those residents feel about Middle/Wildcat. You will observe an undeniable fact: they don’t want the synthetic turf in their backyard and nor should you. Among other things, a vote in favor of turf is a vote against your neighbors, against transparency, against women and against the future of raising children who understand fairness and decency. The majority of our commissioners have already voted for turf, but it’s not too late for you.
You know what's ridiculous? The entire proposal. Spending several million dollars so little kids can have the same exact amount of field time they can have now? you want your kids to play multiple sports, then go buy the land and develop it. The other 90 percent of the community shouldn't have to fund this kind of garbage. Oh, wait, it's "for the children", right?
Mr. Conway,
Two new fields plus drainage and sod reconstruction of all municipal fields would have done far more to improve the situation of cancelling then one field transitioned to turf.
Remember if you don't have the proper shoes the turf will be more troublesome in rain then grass.
Mr. Conaway,
I didn't say anyone was evil. I merely implied the message on the sign is idiotic and irresponsible.
Further, there is no "problem" with the fields. This entire saga is an artificial construct dreamed up by a few (and I stress few) people who somehow believe turf allows us to compete with neighboring communities. I know a lot of people in USC and Bethel, none of whom live there because of artificial turf. There is no "competition". It doesn't exist. Every community has something different to offer (throw in Peter's as well). USC has no defined business corridor, for example, so comparing them to Lebo is apples to pumpkins. Bethel has a totally different design than Lebo so again, no direct comparison. Peter's? Well, they operate in direct inverse to Lebo by seeking ways to keep taxes low with responsible spending while maintaining a fine school district. They also have a lot of open and available land ripe for development. Lebo does not. No direct comparison. The juvenile and outdated mindset in our community that perpetuates some ancient high school rivalry is detrimental to us all. It needs to stop.
But I digress. If you'd like to discuss the issue, Mr. Conaway, I'm more than happy to do so. I have limited time this weekend but we can probably work it out. 412-304-6114. I fI don't answer, leave a message.
Hey 9:53-- boo hoo!!!!
Your say your little 9 year old wants to dabble in lacrosse, but oh God, heaven forbid a little rain falls in her life.
"My daughter is 9 years old, and is heavily involved in dance/ballet. She wanted to try lacrosse this year because lots of her friends were playing. She was very excited to try a new sport and had been practicing for weeks on our driveway. Her team practiced twice the first 5 weeks of the season. Weeks would go by with daily emails that simply stated, "no practice/game tonight.""
How have Lebo lacrosse players that seem to have very stellar seasons been able to succeed up to this point.
You say she's been practicing in the driveway for weeks! Tell me on a rain out, why can't she and a few of her lacrosse pals go to the vacant tennis courts at a school, or Williamsburg parks and practice stick handling? How about moving some skill practices into a gym? You say your kids love to play in the rain... nobody is stopping them from finding an open space and practicing on their own. Or perhaps you - since your rushed home early from work could drive her and some team mates to an open space at South Park and get in some practice.
If an aspiring athlete loves something so much that they're disappointed by a cancellation they'll find an alternative to play or practice the sports they love!
Oh no, your precious little princess must have a $1.5 million turfed field to practice on or she'll cry.
To continue 9:53, people are willing to spend a considerable amount of money building another field so that when... a little rain falls there are more spaces to get in cancelled practices.
There are actually natural grass field techiques in construction that allow them to recover just as quickly as a turfed field from rain. Plus do it with out the negative environmental consequences.
Another field as in Fraasch's plan takes stress off all the other fields.
11:28 - those kind of comments about someone's "princess" is not helpful and just makes those of us against the turf seem like mean spirited people.
12:49. I agree that no one should not put down the parents or their kids. My kids play sports, we don't drive a lexus, and we have dirt in our car right now. Everyone that is advocating for fairness, has to be fair in their comments, too. Parents do not know the whole story. The only way they are going to get it, is if it is shared in a reasonable manner.
Living in a community, where you have made your home, and learning that your leaders have engaged in a long-term process characterized by dishonest behavior and unethical actions is very damaging. I cannot overstate my opinion on this. Some children are being withdrawn from their field sports, that have become a part of their identities and a source of good friendships -- all because of this dishonest, horrible, commission-led, youth sports nightmare.
JE Cannon III thank you for providing your number. I'll give you a call this weekend.
In response to the "boo hoo" post that ended with....Oh no, your precious little princess must have a $1.5 million turfed field to practice on or she'll cry.
The entire post is ridiculous on so many levels I don't even know where to begin. I'll just point out that organized team practice involve coaches and instruction. Kids can throw balls against their garage all day, but for precious prinecesses that have never played a lacrosse game in their life it helps to have some coaching. You're entire post is absurd and offers nothing valuable to this debate.
In response to anonymous that asked...As a case study, why don't you examine the resources, access to practice spaces, cancellation patterns, and tournaments that are available to 9 year olds lacrosse girls in comparison to boys?
Because I have a job and 3 kids.
In response to Anonymous that stated...It's painful to parent girls in Mt Lebanon. Not only because of this athletics issue, but also because when they grow-up, they may be subjected to further unfair treatment as has occurred with Commissioner Fraasch.
I have not had that experience. And I have not heard that from other parents.
With the exception of a few, this clearly isn't a forum interested in reading dissenting points of view. So I'll remove myself from the discussion.
But I think do I have case study. It's hard to believe that in a town the size of Mt. Lebanon there are so many people with the name Anonymous.
How will kids play in the puddled water on the turf? And will we rely on evaporation to get these fields playable again? What accommodations will we make for the injured players? Will there be a fund for the extra liability arising out of the increased injuries? Or the larger ones to come two decades down the pike when the turf-caused health issues begin to surface? What have the Turfies got against healthy growing kids? Don't they think that dealing with small disappointments, such as "it's rained out" is part of growing up? Bubble, indeed!
If denial of equal athletic opportunities is an issue, shouldn't it be taken up with the school board? If the parents of aspiring girl athletes want more available sports opportunities, why don't they organize them and pay for them?
We seem to whine a lot about things we can fix for the children, but what about the limited incomes and limited ability to pay of older residents on fixed incomes, for whom the only "fix" is to reduce taxes and keep them as low as possible. Why are these youth sports folk so anti-senior citizen? Don't they have parents, too? Don't they care?
11:28, You are mean spirited people. You also steal yard signs.
I know! Let's throw grandma off the cliff, collect her insurance and then tax it 100% to pay for turf! All these old people only scare the kids anyway, so let's make Mt. Lebanon a reservation for the children and their maximum earning years parents. Enough with those who don't have easy economic lives, or who live on pensions. Mt. Lebanon is only for rich people who can afford to pay whatever taxes are necessary to keep the commissioners and their friends happy. Then, we can happily change the name of the town to "Mt. Stepford" -- doesn't that have a nice ring? Bubble-up Lebo, we are about to eliminate the most vulnerable among us so the children can play water-lacrosse! Mindless misanthropes in the water first!
Mt. Lebanon will guarantee a "disappointment free" childhood for every son and daughter. Just as we will guarantee that only the privileged may participate in our bubble lifestyle. Let's wish away all those who - in Dave Brumfield's ringing phrase - "can't afford to live here because they can't afford the taxes." What an enlightened, diversity accepting, and caring community they envision. This commission represents the modern Know Nothing Party if anyone does. But why should they represent anything but the narrowest and most privileged interests? They don't represent a community, they represent a bubble!
I would sooner buy Brumfield a toupee than pay for his pointless Turf!
I want fairness, too. That's why I've been adamantly opposed to spending public money on a pet project for some friends of a few commissioners. That isn't fair and equitable government. That's abusive and dishonest. Further, it has been intimated that the turfed fields would, in essence, belong wholly to the YSA. So revenue forcibly taken from wage earners is going to be spent on something they arent allowed to use? Explain how that's "fair"?
As I've stated many times, if the three guys who support this want it to be reality, they should purchase the land from the municipality and pay for the project themselves. But enough forcing taxpayers to fund something and create legacy costs that end up benefitting so few.
2:24 of course 11:28 is mean-spirited and steals lawn signs, since you know that for a fact!!!
But, you on the other hand - are a caring, loving soul that adores everyone and is the only person that cares for our children.
Mr. Conaway, it completely goes over you head that people are angry over the subtrifuge being employed to get the artificial turf installed.
you write: "The entire post is ridiculous on so many levels I don't even know where to begin. I'll just point out that organized team practice involve coaches and instruction. Kids can throw balls against their garage all day, but for precious prinecesses that have never played a lacrosse game in their life it helps to have some coaching. You're entire post is absurd and offers nothing valuable to this debate."
Let's discuss several points in your rebuttal that claims my post is rediculous.
No one is arguing for or implimenting cancelling coaching or practices. So you're wrong on that assumption. On that topic, Lebo lacrosse players have suffered through rain outs and cancelled practices for years. Tell me what were our lacrosse teams records this season and last? Doesn't seem like they're missing too much in the way of coaching. In fact, the PG or Trib just declared the boys HS lacrosse team a perennial powerhouse- and they've gained that reputation all without your turfed fields.
Yeah my comments were absurd. Nice debating with you neighbor.
Oh, by the way-- I'm not asking you to buy anything for my little princess, some how though you think I owe your's something more than she's getting.
As a resident, I think we should offer as many amenities and opporrunities for our kids as possible. I support adding a field at Robb Hollow, improving MWC, and Brafferton.
Do I support artificial turf... NO and I'm tired of being accused of being a cheapskate, child hater, sign stealer and whatever else has been proclaimed!
So run away Conaway, I won't miss you.
I love people like Conaway. No concept that he's dipping into my wallet to buy things for his little 9 year old even though by providing for his kid I may have to forgo something my little princess my want
William, this is the ONLY forum for dissenting points of view. We are up against the commission majority, the municipal staff including the Public Information Office, municipal manager, engineer, planner, Sports Advisory Board, super secret turf project task force, the recreation director, and the school district athletic director. You have nothing to worry about. The deck is stacked in your favor.
Elaine
Mr. Conaway:
First, I thank you for participating in this discussion and having the courtesy of stating your name. Very few contributors to this Blog do that kind of thing. You have been stung by some callous comments from anonymous posters; while I never condone personal attacks on anyone or anyone's children, please understand that this issue has been one of the most divisive that I have seen since moving here in 1975, and passions are running high.
Having said that, and in the interest of full disclosure, I too am against spending public money on this project - I don't think it provides the biggest "bang for the buck" in terms of public necessity. I have nothing against kids (I've had them and was one myself), sports (I played them), or even artificial turf. But as a libertarian, I believe it is not the function of a local government to provide sports/amusement facilities when other options might be available. Of course it's all a done deal now; however, I have a few questions for you:
1. This project has been presented to the community by our Commissioners as a economic boost to the value of all homes in Mt. Lebanon. Do you agree with that premise? If so, on what basis?
2. Where you provided with any studies (not anecdotal evidence)by the Commission or any sports organization in which it was averred that property values would increase as a result of turfing Wildcat/Middle fields? If so, would you be willing to share them with us?
3. If appropriate private fields were available at a reasonable cost for your family's use within a 5 mile radius of Mt. Lebanon would you use them?
4. Would you have agreed to presenting this project to the public on a referendum, if that option had been available? If not, why not?
5. Have you contributed to the "private" ($250,000) portion of this project?
6. Would you be in favor of all of the sports organizations associated with this project making public their contributions to the required $250,000 contribution - especially if they are 501(c)(3) organizations.
Mr. Cannon is correct; this project will create legacy costs that will devolve upon future residents, and I would also suggest unanticipated costs as well. As the popularity of sports ebb and flow there eventually will come a point of diminishing returns for this project - or should I say diminishing participation, since this project returns nothing to the community that will improve the municipality's "bottom line."
I think that unless the Commission wants to place strict controls over who may or may not live in Mt. Lebanon one cannot guarantee that this project will be met with approbation by future residents.
Mr. Gideon, calling someone's point of view reidiculous and absurd is not a personal attack? Calling someone's home late at night and hanging up is not an attack?
It truly is a shame that things have devolved to such a deporable state, but has does one keep their cool when you have a government operating as this one has?
I like your questions by the way Mr. Gideon.
Mr. Conaway, Mr. Gideon-
While I may be anonymous HERE, commissioners and directors certainly know my points of view and who I am.
I'm prepared to submit supporting eveidence of my comments.
Mr. Conaway, not all practice must be overseen by a coach. Have a rainout, take your 9 year old out in the yard and work with her. Your rush home from work (its nice that your job offers you that luxury) won't be wasted!
So here's a paragraph on Lebomag in 2012 about Lebo lacrosse.
"Mike Ermer, in his third year as coach of the Mt. Lebanon High School boys’ varsity team, agrees that lacrosse combines speed with a unique skill set. “To be a really good lacrosse player, you have to be able to catch and throw with both hands. It’s similar to a switch-hitter in baseball, but it would also be like a switch-pitcher. It takes a certain kind of mind-set to say, ‘yeah, that seems like an interesting challenge.’”
Now see being a good lacrosse player requires being able to catch and throw with both hands. A 9 year old doesan't need a 100 yard turfed field to work on that skill set.
Read the rest of the story Mr. Conaway, lacrosse seems to be running quite well without artificial turf. I can understand the need for another field or better groomed fields, but in my opinion turfing MWC doesn't do that.
http://lebomag.com/3907/a-legacy-of-lacrosse/
But go ahead call my point of view ridiculous. It was a free country.
Richard, thank you. Clearly this a very divisive issue. Much more than I thought!
1. This project has been presented to the community by our Commissioners as a economic boost to the value of all homes in Mt. Lebanon. Do you agree with that premise? If so, on what basis?
Without seeing their rationale for that argument....NO I don't agree.
2. Where you provided with any studies (not anecdotal evidence)by the Commission or any sports organization in which it was averred that property values would increase as a result of turfing Wildcat/Middle fields? If so, would you be willing to share them with us?
I was not.
3. If appropriate private fields were available at a reasonable cost for your family's use within a 5 mile radius of Mt. Lebanon would you use them? Yes.
4. Would you have agreed to presenting this project to the public on a referendum, if that option had been available? If not, why not? Not sure, would have to think about it.
5. Have you contributed to the "private" ($250,000) portion of this project?
Yes.
6. Would you be in favor of all of the sports organizations associated with this project making public their contributions to the required $250,000 contribution - especially if they are 501(c)(3) organizations.
Yes.
I really don't want to spend any more time here debating this. I am a father of three kids who play sports. The fields in Mt. Lebanon are terrible. This seems to be a viable solution.
And anonymous, trite, mean spirited blog postings aren't realy benefical to anyone.
There are a lot of fathers and mothers out there who have kids that play sports, Mr. Conaway.
They all have opinions and are contributing money in one form or another to the fields and this project. Please keep that in mind, before you say something like "Please recognize that there is a problem with our fields, YES Kids do want to play and Mt. Lebanon needs to do something to address the problem."
There are anti-turfers that "recognize" field problems and have offered numerous solutions. The commissioners in charge though don't want to have an honest and open discussion on the issue.
The problem isn't anonymous post on a blog.
I have no problem acknowledging and addressing field conditions. But I vehemently disagree that we need turf because the fields aren't draining properly. I feel certain that without addressing how this municipality cares for things, the turf will also fall into disrepair.
I just dropped off an athlete at Bird Park. The parking lot there is horrible. Like no other right now -- full of holes.
This municipality needs to demonstrate that it knows how to care for things and if that can be accomplished, maybe we can actually address how this community cares for one another.
If you can't be patient and kind as you comment, you are doing a disservice to the topic and the seriousness with which readers take your viewpoint. Remember the theme of civility?
Plus Mr. Conaway, millions of dollars have been spent buying useless properties that don't do one thing to alleviate the terrible fields.
Fraasch came up with a plan that would have unloaded the McNeilly purchase and perhaps allow it to be developed thereby adding to municipal coffers rather than draining them.
So see if you get past labeling people as trite and mean-spirited, which was the intent of your orignal post we might arrive at
Does that apply to real sign stealers and tweeters, 5:21?
So Mr Conaway, what do you have to say to people who will have to deal with the consequences of excess water runoff on Cedar Blvd since the fields will now be non-permeable surface? Or do those people not count because they live in the "low rent district?"
--Tom the Tinker
5:21 PM, that is what scares me about the school district maintaining MWC Fields. Did you see the holes and standing water on the high school turf? I have photos posted in earlier threads.
Artificial turf is not going to make those fields any better. I have been reading some of the bidders' websites. The synthetic base is perforated and then a layer of sand goes down before the infill. Sand clogs up the drainage holes and then you have the same problem as the high school turf. But our commissioners know everything and cannot be questioned. It is not going to be any better.
Elaine
Mr. Conaway:
I appreciate your candid answers to my questions, and I understand your reluctance to debate the question further. It is very heartening that you are in favor of disclosure (question #6), and your answer to question #3 tells me that you are more concerned about field availability than you are who owns them - both very libertarian ideas! I suspect, although I don't have enough data to prove it, that most sports-minded residents would answer #3 as you did.
It is too bad that our commissioners did not have the same kind of dialogue with the public as you and I had here this afternoon. Of course they will say they had public meetings on the subject but few anti-turf people attended (true in the beginning, but not now!), although I suspect the only opinion that the majority of them wanted to hear was the one coming from the Sports Advisory Board.
Thank you for your time and willingness to hash this out a bit in public.
Mr. Gideon: You forgot a few questions for Mr. Conaway. I am going to start with just one:
1. Did anyone ever tell you that you are contributing to over 2 acres of impermeable surfacing in the *most* flood prone area of Mt Lebanon? This has been documented repeatedly by the Mt Lebanon Fire Department. Thus, with the addition of synthetic fields, you are inadvertently worsening a preexisting problem for your community.
I am not going to ask if it's disappointing to learn these facts after you have contributed to this project financially and supported it in other ways.
Mr. Gideon you bring up an important.
Hasn't it been written that Commissioner Fraasch was blindsided in the rush to get this turfing project through?
If a sitting commissioner wasn't in the loop from the beginning, how in the world could the average resident?
Then we have Commissioners making statements like - they've never seen any evidence of turf hazards.
If anyone has attended any meeting on turf you've seen people hand in documents on the subject.
Then we have Brumfield writing on his blog that two games can not occur simultaneously on Wildcat/Middle. But later we get a presentation that turf will increase game slots by 60% and simultaneous play can occur.
There were the claims we needed more fields, supposedily why we bought Twin Hills, then McNeilly.
Then we just needed better fields so we were going to develop Brafferton.
Then we needed a "crown jewel", then better fields, then more game slots, then better fields.
It is these inconsistencies that are driving people crazy.
So for a few hundred kids Mt Lebanon is going to waste close to 3 million $$$s... What about the THOUSANDS of other kids? Face it! This is a LACROSSE field! It's a field for Brumfield's kid. Taxes are going to be raised because many of our roads have been labeled unsafe. There's that pesky deal with the aging water and sewerage. Has anyone asked Brumfield who will pay for all the lawsuits from Cedar Blvd residents when they are flooded? I know my boss has spoken to Vee Lynn residents about using the medical imaging camera to show present and after turf temps.
I find it hard to believe that some folks want to justify initial spending of $1.5 -$2 million on a turfed field just because they think that cancellations are going to go down. Wow!!
Nick M.
My 11 year old is a very promising Dressage rider. Why isn't my daughter's sport paid for by taxpayers? Doesn't she deserve the same treatment as the next child? Our next door neighbor's child will most likely not be able to play soccer or baseball next year because of the huge increase in the fees. What about his feelings? Or do only the feelings of lacrosse players count?
As a father of a kid that plays lacrosse alot of parents are against the turfing. My kid's health is worth more than playing 3 or 4 more games. And after watching him play I can tell you if would be unsafe to have another athletic event occurring at the same time. Especially soccer! That ball is hard and hurts if you get hit with it. I can't see a poor kid playing soccer getting hit in the head.
9:12, why the huge fee increases for soccer? The soccer association had $185,749 in the bank at the end of 2012, probably a little more at the end of 2013.
Do they really need more?
Have you asked about this?
Nick M.
10:09 I don't know much about the increase in fees but teams will have to "rent" the field. I believe the whole entire field space will be $30/hour. So if your child plays lacrosse 5x/week for 2 hours, that's an extra $300/week divided among the players. If they get the "Abracadabra" levels of extra practices from March to June, what will that be 14 weeks of practice/games? $4200 extra for the team. I am not sure about the parameters for these assumptions but is this a fair estimate?
OK, Mt. Lebanon parents with young children get your wish list together, because we are not a community that diappoints children.
We're going to install turf so nobody's practices get rained out, so that one is covered.
We have a wish for stables.
Anyone up for skateboarding? Scott is getting a skateboard park, can we afford not to have one?
Hope about a bobsled run? Surely there some youngsters that wacthed and want to medal in this event someday at the Olympics.
How about a cross country skiing?
Then there is Motocross. What kid doesn't want race around on a dirt bike?
Then there is kayaking. It's not fair kids don't have any raging rapids to conquer.
How about polo? With all those Ralph Lauren Polo shirts around town, surely there are some disappointed horse lovers out there.
9:12 I agree with your viewpoint. I have looked into how other communities handle parks and recreation. I think that recreation at a municipal level is aimed at providing outlets for everybody and not at increasing practice time slots, competition, etc. for children who are eventually going to play at the high school level or seek a college scholarship.
It seems like the boundaries here in Mt Lebanon are murky and this could be why so many people are upset at the high level of focus on youth sports. It's fair to improve field conditions but the added expenses, especially at the cost of overlooking other community needs and concerns, is quite concerning.
Rent a field? Did Mt Lebanon sell a piece of the park? When does Brumfield & morons add a toll booth to the park entrance?
10:49, don't forget about the skatepark (Pitcher Park) in Carnegie that is currently under construction. We can't let Carnegie get ahead of us now, can we?
Nick M.
I’d like to thank William Conaway for offering the calm perspective of a resident who supports the turfing plan. Many plan supporters have been portrayed as unreasonable bullies, but it’s hard to see Mr. Conaway in that light. His contribution helps to demonstrate that reasonable people can and do support the plan.
Likewise, reasonable people can and do oppose the plan. I’m one of them. For those readers who have a hard time understanding how anyone could object to “helping kids get more field time,” let me suggest that the problem with the plan becomes more apparent when you consider Mt. Lebanon as it actually is, and not as the community of young families that it is commonly believed to be. Here’s that argument, in a paragraph:
According to the most-recent U.S. Census, less than one third of Mt. Lebanon households have school-age children at all, let alone children active in field sports that would benefit from the marginally extended playing opportunities afforded by artificial turf. As a question of policy, then, is it a good use of the government’s taxing authority to take money from three thirds of Mt. Lebanon’s households in order to pay for a marginal increase in the service level delivered to a selected segment of less than one third of households? Further, since it is easy to ask the people within that selected segment to pay for the fields they use – playing fields are not what economists would call a “public good” – what is the moral argument for forcing the majority who do not use the fields to pay for the minority who do?
Does any supporter of the plan have an answer to that last question?
While I appreciate your calming efforts, Mr Conaway's first comment was not a calming perspective.
He said: "these coments about garbage cans and putting artificial turf on their lawns... are ridiculous."lous."
I submit to you Mr. Moertel, your comment is ridiculous. Like it? No?
Do you appreciate someone ridiculing your comment?
Now I started off saying I appreciated your calming, so the ridiculing comments are just to prove a point.
The garbage can and artificial lawn comments were made to make a point, obviously missed by Mr. Conaway otherwise he wouldn't have been so quick with the ridicule.
Artificial lawns are not that absurd, especially in the southwest, it is done. So why not ask why a proponent of fake grass doesn't use it on his own property?
Regarding garbage cans, that is a point that many of the proponents for PAYT to cut done on plastics going to landfills have no problem bringing tons of tire rubber and plastic into the community and dumping it on our kids' playing fields. Which will in 8 years or so torn up and trucked off to a landfill!
Because Mr. Conaway doesn't get it, that doesn't give him the right to ridicule people.
By the way, Mr. Moertel your observations on the make up of the community and deduction on how few artificial turf serves is an excellent presentation.
It has been made before, but not said nearly enough. It makes the case for Kelly Fraasch's plan that serves the wider community.
There is no moral argument in favor of the synthetic turf installation.
Of note, disposal of tires are regulated but once they are shredded they are no longer regulated. So that crumb rubber could be dumped almost anywhere in a couple of years. While the materials for this field will come from all over the world, the toxic trail created when the materials need to be replaced will probably remain local.
Is it fair to say that Mt Lebanon possesses a startling lack of sustainability and environmentalism in its decision making and management of community resources?
Is their any truth to the rumor that this is the next PR campaign due from the Public Information Office?
Picture this...
Several rain-soaked, doe-eyed (nix the doe eyes, deer aren't popular in the bubble), teary children standing ankle deep in mud and torn up natural grass. Shin guards and socks drooping over their muddy water- logged Nike spikes. Lacrosse and soccer jerseys barely clinging to their emaciated little bodies.
They look longingly at the reader over the appeal: "ALL WE WANT TO DO IS PLAY!" Won't you please support artificial turf?"
Yep, it is all for the poor, depraved children- even that monument which will serve as a constant reminder who really cares for them.
"This is a dissapointment to the kids, and can be a challenge for families with two working parents. I left work early on many occassions to get home and find out pracice was canceled. (even thought it wasn't raining) These comments about gargabe cans, people putting artificial grass in their lawn, and weeds in their yards - are ridiculous and not helpful in the discussion."
How come no compassion asked for the parents of young children that work long hours, take overtime so that they can keep their house, afford the taxes and pay the fees to participate in every sport their kids want to try.
Doesn't that count?
How about those mom's and dad's that CAN'T leave work early to make their kid's practice because they need the job and their emploer is in the process of determining who to cut and who to keep on the payroll?
Do they matter? Are their disappointments rediculous? Perhaps the disappoint of their kids as mom or dad leave in the evening for the second job just doesn't register with the neighbors, because they're still angry that practice has been cancelled due to wet fields.
I'm sorry-- guess I'm just a "ridiculous," callous SOB.
No on second thought... I'm not sorry. I know my name even though I contributed through the $750,000 municipal share will ever appear on the MWC monument!
Corrections @ 9:14.
ridiculous- not rediculous.
"I know my name even though I contributed through the $750,000 [in excess taxes] municipal share will [n]ever appear on the MWC monument.
How about the seniors, the widows or families that did everything right, worked hard all their lives and helped build Mt. Lebanon, only to find their 401s and investments decimated in the last recession. Does their disappointment count? Perhaps as things begin to recover they might join in on an effort to build a "crown jewel" at some point. Or build an indoor facility, but noooo--- we've gotta have it now!!!!"
Never mind that the school district is crying poor mouth and the municipality can't deal with flooding issues and unsafe crosswalks and is probably going to cry about money very soon.
Plus don't talk about the $3 million wasted on irrational property purchases in the name of field sports (Twin Hills, McNeilly).
We don't want to disappoint anyone, especially the kids.
Elaine: Why doesn't someone ask for a vote by the youth sports parents about the turfing? If the comment from 6/5 at 9:19pm reflects the thought that I believe is out there among the youth sports parents - who are as concerned for the health and welfare of their children as are the rest of us - it might just reflect the false front portrayed by Mr. Franklin and the other self-appointed spokesmen of the project. Interesting how there is no petition FOR the turf from the youth sports parents, we have only the word of the insiders like Franklin, Bendel (who never reveals his sources), and Brumfield. Let's break this out in the open -- let's hear from the people themselves, not the "leaders."
Latest LeboALERT
From: LeboALERT
To: EGillen476
Subject: LeboALERT: A panel will discuss...
Date: Fri, Jun 6, 2014 5:27 pm
This is an important notice from LeboALERT.
A panel will discuss the Wildcat/Middle fields enhancement project at a public
meeting, Thurs., June 12, 7 to 8:30 pm, Mellon auditorium.
Does anyone see the word ARTIFICIAL TURF?
Elaine
5:03 not that I wouldn't want to see an anti-turf crusade by the sports parents is there something wrong with them that they can't organize an anti-turf effort on their own?
In the Lincoln School area today, a bunch of kids were walking home from school carrying pro-turf signs. Would that indicate someone at the school was handing them out?
I have been told over and over by parents of young athletes that they cannot say anything negative about toxic turf because coaches are vindictive and will not let the children play. Many of them will be pulling their kids out of the sports programs.
Elaine
HOW WAS IT PROVEN SAFE!
I bet all of those saying "Keep it Green" have paved driveways (artificial, no?)and drive in cars that use rubber tires. How are they keeping it green? It comes down to the fact that Mt. Lebanon has fallen behind the times in keeping up their playing fields for all sports. Many games and school activities are cancelled due to the weather. Believe me, my kids would be playing in the rain if they hadn't been told they had to stay OFF of the fields, that is why you see empty fields in the rain, not by choice. There are surrounding communities that have refused to come to mt. Lebanon and play on our fields due to concern about possible injuries because of the awful field conditions. That speaks volumes!
Boy, you really had to scroll through many posts to be able to comment on this one.
Yes, my car uses rubber tires, but until my kids start putting them in their mouths, I am not concerned.
Which communities have refused to come to Mt. Lebanon? Specifically, why are they refusing to play here? I heard that there have been complaints as to how dirty our kids are encouraged to play, that is keeping them away. One coach in particular. Several have anger management issues. That would speak volumes, 1:26 PM.
Elaine
1:26, what you say about driveways and tires is certainly true.
So lets go a step further. Every home uses lumber so lets use that as an excuse to cut down more trees!
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