McNeilly Park, located on left side of McNeilly Road heading toward Rt. 88, opposite from Dewalt. Just follow the car tracks.
Twin Hills Trails Park Bower Hill Road to North Meadowcroft, cross over Beverly Road, left onto Twin Hills Drive to dead end. Twin Hills is located in Scott Township. I wonder if the nine commissioners are aware of what is going on. To reach them by telephone:
Ward Name Phone Number
1 Eileen L. Meyers (412) 279-4003
2 William Wells (412) 276-8623
3 Stacey Altman (412) 221-1977
4 David G. Calabria (412) 276-1488
5 Thomas M. Castello, Esq. (412) 429-8247
6 David A. Jason, President (412) 249-8171
7 Craig C. Stephens, Esq. (412) 429-1580
8 Patricia Caruso (412) 279-0276
9 Donald Giudici, Vice President (412) 973-1046
I remember Steve Feller was asked if Scott Manager Denise Fitzgerald was notified, and I believe his answer was that when he spoke with her, she said that it wasn't up to her.
Bird Park Washington Road, right onto Cedar Blvd., left onto Bird Park Drive (before Beadling Road). Its location is about 257 ft. from Markham Elementary and is most accessible from the soccer field driveway/steps that connect Beadling Dr. to Youngwood Dr. Notice the police presence while the photographer was taking pictures.
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| 257' from Markham School |
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| Notice the police presence? |
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| Snow covered bait station |
Robb Hollow Park – South on Bower Hill Road past St. Clair Hospital, left after post office onto Robb Hollow Road, left on Driftwood Drive, continue to dead end. Number of access points include Kelso Road and Public Works.
Baiting station is at the Kelso Road access, at the bend.
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| Soon to be dead deer |
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| Camera is in the yellow circle |
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| Our police chief inspecting the site |
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| Police chief checking baiting station |
Mt. Lebanon Golf Course As of this afternoon, the golf course manager said there is no baiting happening at the golf course yet.
Conservation District on Connor Road Heading toward Rt. 88, located on left past Terrace Drive and before Marshall Drive. Look for the Duquesne Light equipment.
I don't recommend anyone getting arrested. These locations are being posted to assist parents when advising their children to stay away.
You may want to follow Kristen Linfante's advice to me in her letter that I shared in my September 27, 2014 post More than 300 yards away UPDATED
I am sorry to hear that you suffer from nightmares. My only suggestion is to seek psychiatric counseling immediately. My understanding is that it can be very helpful if you can find someone skilled in treating such a condition...
Best of luck to you,
Commissioner Linfante
PS-I just painted my basement with the help of the great people at Rolliers. John in the paint department is wonderful and gave me excellent advice. It looks quite nice. I'm not sure what your basement is like, but perhaps they could help you if you are inclined to spend time down there.PERMIT FROM GAME COMMISSION
86 comments:
Parents shouldn't have to tell their children to stay away from public parks for the convenience of a poorly plan deer management plan that has escalated into a gruesome experiment.
The public parks belong to the children. They are in the public trust. Mt Lebanon continues to violate basic rights. These decisions were not made in the best interests of children -- the impact on children was not considered.
In fact, this plan discriminates against park users by assaulting them in a place that formerly promoted well-being.
For all the crying about field shortages, the commission seems to have no problem creating a new park shortage. Who wants to go to the park and see deer slaughtered? Do we have substitute parks?
Omg. There are first responders for deer in other areas. We are in hell. For sure.
parkerchronicle.net/stories/Deer-saved-after-falling-through-ice,180675
Give it up folks. The sentiment with the press seems to be that apparent breeches in ethics and possible collusion on the bid will go by uninvestigated, but the mere mention of possibly open gates to save a few deer gets a call for jail time for offenders.
Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd, newspaper, that the company that helped MTL compose the RFP is the only company that responded with a bid? Then wins the contract even though they've never conducted the sort of cull the RFP specified?
Way to go Trib for standing up for what is right!
http://triblive.com/mobile/7773553-96/deer-corralled-jail
"Lance: To Mt. Lebanon's deer disobedients. Those who support car-deer crashes, the spread of disease among deer and pets, deer chasing people and the continuing evisceration of the ecosystem to the detriment of all wildlife are hinting that they might release deer that have been corralled for culling. Those caught doing so should be corralled, too — in the local pokey."
The deer issue has morphed again!
It started with gardens. We came back with lists of deer resistant plants and deer deterrents.
Then came the threat of Lyme Disease. So we shared what the PA Game Commission has on their website. Snap.
Next, came the issue of car accidents involving deer. We debunked that myth when we did the math and found that accounts for less than 2% of the accidents. Bam.
Now it is about preserving the ecosystem. Ecosystem. Sounds impressive. But since when are commissioners charged with preserving the ecosystem? Maybe they got "ecosystem" confused with "infrastructure." Now our commissioners are playing God. Infrastructure, Guys. Infrastructure.
Elaine
Preserving the ecosystem???
With what-- more tire crumbs and plastic grass?
It's all about vanity and power to get what certain individuals want.
Susan Morgans told the PG's Harry Funk that letters were sent out on Tuesday to residents who live near the killing fields. Mt. Lebanon deer management program gets go-ahead Did anyone get a letter?
Elaine
Wasn't the rationale for the cull described in the permit application? What did that say?
The North American Model upon which the Wildlife Society* relies to justify deer culling indicates that the cull most be both scientific and for legitimate reasons. The reasons cannot change once the public recognizes they are false. There is no scientific rationale either, given this is an experiment that lacks not only a body of evidence purporting it to be humane but also without the consent of the people.
If the commissioners need a spokesperson for their "Save the Ecosystem" campaign here's the couple for the job.
" i heard Marty Griffin this morning on the radio telling his audience that his wife, Kristen Sorenson wants all the deer dead because they ate her flowers!!!"
I sent this note to all the commissioners yesterday:
Sad day in the history of Mt. Lebanon with the beginning of the Deer slaughter. It's a major embarrassment for the community. After nearly forty years in Mt. Lebanon, this is the first time that I am personally embarrassed over a community action. Fortunately, living on Arden Road, my zip code is for the Dormont Post Office and I can now claim to be from Dormont, rather than Mt. Lebanon.
Seems like a few outspoken fanatics have swayed your opinion to choose the worst possible solution. I spoke to a good friend from Fox Chapel today and he tells me that they attempted a cull several years ago and the deer population is now greater than ever. As many of the experts have warned, this is a live example of the rebound effect. Hiring this so-called consultant to find a solution is like asking a surgeon whether or not you need surgery.
If you would have taken the time to effectively poll the populace, I believe you would have found a significant majority to be appalled by the current plan which has never been attempted elsewhere. This is not a unique Mt. Lebanon issue and as such your efforts could have been much better
utilized by working with other communities and State officials to come up with a more workable, uniform and humane approach.
It's unfortunate that your limited efforts could not be directed toward solving the many other more significant issues in Mt. Lebanon that are within your purview and truly impact health and safety throughout the community.
Sincerely,
Jim Takach
Longtime Arden Road Resident
Nothing like rubbing salt on a wound, Kristen Linfante. She should be ashamed of herself. She disgusts me and makes me embarrassed to live in Mt. Lebanon.
It's people like her that rip the little pockets of community that are left in this warped bubble to pieces.
You weren't paying attention years ago 11:08 otherwise you'd have noticed Linfante didn't want to join 'your' community. She arrived wanting to create 'her own community' - and so she has and in a relatively short time span.
Don't cry now, we let it happen.
""I've found that you have to work a little harder to make your own community when you weren't born here," adds Linfante, a professional freelance violist who moved here when her husband took a seat with the Pittsburgh Symphony."
http://www.popcitymedia.com/innovationnews/reallebo0120.aspx
I have many personal emails where Kristen Linfante makes personal attacks toward me and then says that I can post them on the blog. How sick is that?
Also, when making personal attacks toward me in your comments, folks, sign your name and I will approve them. Remember, I am not an elected official.
Someone just emailed me this comment: "Marty Griffin was just prattling on about the '$1000 per deer sterilization'." What Marty doesn't realize, there are some of us working to get that number cut in half! Qualified volunteers are stepping forward. What do you say to that, Marty?
Elaine
Where did Marty get his numbers?
Marty also said that trap and transport wasn't a viable option, but check out Benner's submission to the RFP.
On page 7 his associate has conducted trap and transport.
Do a little reading Marty!
I thought that Marty was against the cull. Did he have a change of heart?
11:37 AM Years ago? Unfortunately, I just moved here months ago and I am already trying to plan my escape.
If you know anyone that wants to buy a house near Bird Park let me know… It's private and used to have a lot of deer visiting… which was my favorite part about it. Deep heavy sigh, as I bow my head in sadness.
Truth is I was trying to like it here, trying to persuade my children and husband that we can be happy living in a large - over privileged suburb, but all of this makes me want to move from here even more than before.
I am grateful however, for this space and those that share their empathy for what is happening with the deer.
Without a sense of caring, there can be no sense of community. - Anthony J. D'Angelo
See Gene Huntington's resume on page 7 of 19 in the Wildlife Management Cull proposal.
He conducted a successful trap and transfer program in NJ from 2001-2003.
http://mtlebanon.org/DocumentCenter/View/10757
See Gene Huntington's resume on page 7 of 19 in the Wildlife Management Cull proposal.
He conducted a successful trap and transfer program in NJ from 2001-2003.
http://mtlebanon.org/DocumentCenter/View/10757
Regarding Marty's prattling about $1,000 deer sterization.
What are Griffin/Sorenson now pinching pennies? MTL is supposed to be an affluent community, one that can afford a $113+ million school building, $1.2 million artificial soccer fields and now we're going to go cheap on getting rid of his wife's flower bed pest.
Sorry Marty, not buying it!
http://www.deerfriendly.com/deer-population-control
"Light to moderate hunting, as in many urban culls, does not change the long-run total deer population in an otherwise stable environment."
After reading the information in the above link, could it possibly be that the commissioners are being "penny wise and pound [dollar] foolish?
We might on the surface save $500/deer with a corral and kill vs sterilization, Mr Griffin, but if that $500 per doesn't achieve any change we haven't saved anything, have we?
How about doing some real reporting.
John Bendel's father was Mayor of McKeesport and he wants to make a career out of politics. He is doing this for campaign money.
How well is McKeesport doing?
When citing the 2% statistic, please be careful to make clear that deer are involved in 2% of the car accidents that hurt people. The "that hurt people" part is important because you can't make people safer unless you prevent the things that hurt them. So that's why we must focus on the car accidents that hurt people.
I'm just wondering if Mt. Lebanon is paying for hotel rooms, meals, and expenses for Merlin and his baiting and killing staff, from Feb. thru March? Does anyone know? Does anyone know where they're staying?
Griffin was chortling along with the 5th-grade level comments from his callers, mocking those opposed to the cull. This, coming from a guy who makes a living by...well, not reporting because he doesn't do that. Heck if I know what his job is aside from making inflammatory statements and trying to evoke emotion from little old ladies.
Mr. Griffin, the people you and the other little boys were mocking today live in the same town. Some of us even grew up here and weren't transplants you like and your wife (think the Jeffersons..."movin' on up"). The people you mocked on your show today are educated, passionate, intelligent and involved in the community and surrounding areas. That's more than I can say for you. The people you mocked today are doctors, engineers, attorneys, veterans, male and female, young and old. The people you mocked today have built the community, the one in which your wife seems to think her flowers take precedence over the way my tax dollars are spent. The people you mocked today chose--like you--to raise their families in a community they thought was a notch or two above most of the surrounding area. The people you mocked have children in the schools, eat at local restaurants, volunteer with local organizations and attend the local churches and synagogue. The people you mocked today interact with those businesses that advertise on KDKA.
And you mocked those people for what? To please the callers? Or is that really who you are, someone who makes immature and off-color wisecracks so he can puff out his little chest? I can tell you this, you're not much a of a reporter. You had no research done on the topic, your numbers were off and I haven't seen you at any of the meetings. So I'm curious as to how you think you have an intelligent position on any of this?
What a shame that KDKA, a once proud and iconic station, has sunk to such depths. Message to Marty--grow up, man. Try acting like an adult and start setting a better example for your kids.
Lots of attitude coming from the Mt. Lebanon manager's office. A resident asked for a copy of the permit and was told to file a Right To Know. When the resident said that you can't have No Trespassing signs on public property, Feller told the resident to contact the District Attorney's office. YIKES!
Elaine
Wiki says that Marty is an investigative reporter. Too bad he didn't do much investigating on the deer cull. His wife is Kristine Sorenson, not Kristen Sorenson. I think she has a morning show on KDKA.
Linfante calls herself a prof and then puts a knife in your back??? She is a total bitch..Also this afternoon, i took a short walk up at the golf course.. there were zero kids and i didnt see any traps or bait stations.. as i was driving down Pine AVE.. two Lebo Cops were speeding up the road towards the Club House.. wonder what the rush was??
Feller can't tell someone to file a RTK for a state-issued permit. On that basis alone, Feller should be fired.
I heard these signs are being staked in the parks:
POSTED: This public land is the property of Mt. Lebanon residents and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Any private contractor or individual suspected of causing harm to this property or the plants and/or wildlife herein will be subject to a citizens arrest and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
2:03: please explain your comment: "how well is McKeesport doing" and what that has to do with John Bendel - other than that is his father who is deceased and hasn't been mayor in over 10 years . What???
Please note that I have posted the PA Game Commission permit at the bottom of this post.
Also, please contact the nine Scott Township commissioners and ask them if they are aware of Mt. Lebanon killing deer in Twin Hills. The property owned by Mt. Lebanon is located in Scott Township.
I listed their phone numbers on this post, under Twin Hills Park.
Elaine
I'm a Scott resident and already called our officials. This is ridiculous that Mt Lebanon thinks they can bring this horrific plan to our doorsteps!
No Way keep your slaughter to yourselves!!!!!
I am proud to live in Scott and not live in Mt Lebanon. Our officials at least have a heart.
Please contact the Scott and Castle Shannon officials. Mt Lebanon is conducting this on or very near the borders. They should know and Mt Lebanon won't notify them I'm sure.
Read condition #5 on the PGC permit. This must occur in Mt. Lebanon. Twin Hills is not in Mt. Lebanon. It is in Scott Township!
Also, Merlin the Magnificent is not permitted to do any of this. Only two people, Brian Benner and Robert Schwarz have been given permission to do the work.
See condition #7.
Elaine
12:40 PM I feel for you. We lasted six years...the last year because the housing market had crashed. We, too, were in the Markham area. We loved having the deer in our yard; made me feel connected to nature in a way you aren't always in the suburbs. I can remember standing on our terrace with my sons watching them in the evening.
But then we came face to face with the weirdness and insularity (I may have just made up that word) that is Mt. Lebanon. Kids standing in line on their grade number before school on the hardtop. No riding bikes or scooters to school. Markham successfully sucks the joy out of childhood. Or rather, the nasty Markham mommies suck the joy out of childhood.
When we finally left, my youngest was in the middle of fourth grade. Shortly after we moved, my son asked me to drive him to school (in our new town). When we pulled up there were bikes and scooters everywhere and the kids were running all over the place on the playground. (Yes, having fun before school on the school grounds!!!!) He looked at me and said, "You know what this is? Happiness. This is how kids are supposed to be."
My advice to you is make your peace with Lebo...learn to fly under the radar. You will find a lot of great people also flying under the radar. Befriend them. Or call it for what it is and escape Lebo. And chalk it up to learning a great life lesson. But know that you cannot change Lebo. It is a warped culture that is ingrained through generations.
Godspeed.
7:35 PM, what a beautiful thing your son said. It really makes me sad for the children who do live here. None of the grandkids in our family go to Mt. Lebanon schools. They are all very happy. I don't see our super, Timmy, doing anything to stop this.
Any letters come to residents adjacent to the killing fields?
It was also pointed out to me that part of Robb Hollow is in Upper St. Clair. http://lebonature.org/robb-hollow/
If I remember correctly, part of McNeilly is in Baldwin.
Elaine
I called a Scott commissioner. The one at the top of the list. She had no idea about twin hills being a kill site. She said she'd share the info with the rest of the commission on Tuesday at the meeting. I told her about the MTL commission mtg at 8 on Monday. I told her maybe, given the situation, the commission would permit her to comment at the beginning.
Hi Elaine,
I believe condition #5 is written the way it is because any other community outside Mt. Lebanon would be considered another political subdivision and only the political subdivision of Mt. Lebanon applied for this permit. As I read it, if anyone steps on another political subdivision to conduct deer management they should be arrested for criminal trespass. If anyone has any knowledge of bait stations being used in these areas please call the police and have these folks arrested for feeding deer which is prohibited. Also, don't be afraid to walk up to these folks and ask for their credentials. If anyone other than the two folks listed are doing any type of field work, call the police and have them arrested.
Nick M.
I've been told that PETA would like to invite protestors to join them at 5:30 on Monday. I think this will occur outside the municipal building.
People need to start attending municipal meetings in USC, Scott and Baldwin. You know, for the sake of public awareness. I mean, this is such a great plan, we should make damn sure all the neighboring communities know about it.
With respect to Twin Hills, which is within the boundaries of Scott Township, the question of jurisdiction came up back in 2013 during the great "dogs in the park" debate. At that time I wrote to the Municipality and Commissioners, asking some questions concerning who had jurisdiction over Twin Hills. These questions were not academic; Mt. Lebanon is a land owner, not a land sovereign, in Scott Township. Here are my questions and the replies I received from Mt. Lebanon Solicitor Phil Weis back in April of 2013:
RG Q1: Am I correct in assuming that in purchasing Twin Hills Park Mt. Lebanon did not acquire sovereignty over it?; in other words, Scott did not cede the land to Mt. Lebanon such that it would now be considered within the boundaries of the Municipality.
PW: That is correct. The property remains in Scott.
RG Q2: If the land is legally in Scott then would not Scott's laws trump Mt. Lebanon's ordinances?
PW: Scott’s ordinances would apply, but they do not necessarily “trump” Mt. Lebanon’s ordinances. In particular, Mt. Lebanon’s park rules continue to apply to Twin Hills.
RG Q2 continued: Making an extreme example, suppose someone is murdered in Twin Hills Park. Which police department would have jurisdiction - Mt. Lebanon's or Scott's?
PW: The general rule is that a municipal police officer’s jurisdiction is limited to the municipal boundaries. There are exceptions to this general rule that include felonies; hot pursuit; and agreements between municipalities.
RG Q3: If Scott's laws are sovereign then would you not have to ask them for a waiver of any ordinance they might have against dogs in their parks?
PW: We are in the process of determining exactly what Scott’s rules are.
RG Q3 continued: Conversely, if Scott is sovereign and allows dogs in Twin Hills then it would seem to be that Mt. Lebanon can't enforce a "no dogs" law in that area.
PW: Mt. Lebanon could enforce this rule in this case based on Mt. Lebanon being the owner of the property.
You may make of this what you will. There has never been a test case over jurisdiction in the case of Twin Hills. The fact is that Mt. Lebanon is a property owner in Scott Township. The Municipality enjoys the privileges of property ownership there; but as any property owner will attest (and some of our Commissioners gleefully point out from time to time), owning property in a political subdivision does not mean you can do anything you want with it (perish the thought!). If I as a property owner in Mt. Lebanon am beholden to the ordinances of Mt. Lebanon it stands to reason that Mt. Lebanon, admitting that they do not have sovereignty over Twin Hills, must be beholden to the laws of Scott Township. As of the hour of this post I have not heard that the PA Game Commission gave Scott Township a permit to cull deer within its boundaries.
Just a FYI - additional cameras were installed. Anyone that even wanders into these areas will be approached. How do I know? I took a shorter path when walking the dogs and I got too close to the deer cull area. They were nice when they found an old man walking his dogs. I was told if I wandered into the area again I would face trespassing charges.
J.B., what park were you in? Also, how many folks approached you? Thank you.
Nick M.
J.B. 9:30 pm, who approached you and told you that you would face trespassing charges?
I am confused about the Twin Hills discussion.
Why would the municipality include Twin Hills as a kill site if they don't have permission from the Game Commission to cull there?
They told the press, school district, residents that they were culling there and put up 2 signs on the Mt Lebanon border of the park.
Are they hoping to get Scott Township a permit for this culling?
Do the permits say anything about "trespassing" near the sites? If not, how can the police order residents away from sites in their public parks. I am sincerely not sure since I don't have experience questioning police orders. (I've only lived in normal places that haven't infringed on my rights prior to Mt Lebanon).
Mr. Gideon,
Thank you for the info you provided. I would add too that because the Game Commission is a state agency, their rules trump municipal rules. I don't see how Benner's crew will be allowed to conduct deer management in Twin Hills but I can imagine Kristen frantically on the phone trying to get around this.
Nick M.
10:32 I think Bendel wants Twin HIlls because he promised VA Manor residents he would kill their deer. Isn't that the closest park to VA Manor? I only know he promised from one of Elaine's RTK.
Just a question:
These Mt L deer are not sick.
Chronic Wasting Disease is a huge, growing concern among deer. Deer in areas impacted are being culled at an expedited rate.
So we are culling deer that aren't sick and other areas are culling deer that are. Which deer get a break?
Then some states, like Virginia, ban "deer farms" because they are a major source of CWD.
Yet, deer farming is legal in PA and a major source of revenue.
http://www.shepstone.net/padeer.pdf
To me, it seems like the PA Game Commission does whatever it takes to make money instead of whatever it takes to preserve environmental rights, which includes protecting wildlife from exploitation and profit making. I don't like Pennsylvania too much.
Hi 10:44, I don't think any of the Commissioners realized up front that Twin Hills may be off limits. Honestly I don't know myself, but I don't know how else to interpret the language written in the permit understanding that Twin Hills is entirely in another political subdivision. Remember too that Mr. Bendel made all those promises before the permit was issued. The same thing happened with the turf project, everyone was gung ho about getting started on August 1st but look what happened with that.
Nick M.
Elaine's pictures of our parks makes Mt. Lebanon look like the Nazi "final solution of the deer question". Once the corrals are set up it will look like mini concentration death camps throughout our community. Mt. Lebanon, a "Community with Character".
The best way to deal with Marty Griffin is to just turn off the channel and stop listening to the weasel. I'd also recommend sending an email to KDKA's radio director/manager, and letting him/her know that you stopped listening to any of their radio broadcasts.
What kind of character and honor do these two contractors have (named above) that will shoot these corralled deer families (pregnant doe and her fawns)? I put them in the same category as the baby seal clubbers in Canada. Dishonorable and cowardly killers.
IMO, there is something very disturbing about how our Police Chief is so obsessed with slaughtering the deer. How he has stepped up to proactively launch a hunting program in Mt. Lebanon, hunting in our parks himself, telling residents (Mt. Lebo Mag.) that bow hunting is humane (22 studies showing 50%+ wounding rates and The Humane Society of the United States disagree), and is now running around checking on feeding stations, and acting like his number one priority is protecting Mt. Lebanon's canned killing program from residents who pay his salary. He has poisoned the excellent community relations that Tom Ogden, our prior Chief, had built over 30 years. Chief Scott has helped turn Mt. Lebanon into a divisive community, that no longer holds our Police Chief or the police officers with the respect and admiration they once had under Tom Ogden's administration. We don't want our Police Chief or officers turning our community into a private hunting club or shooting gallery, or harassing residents walking their dogs in our parks. Their role isn't to threaten or harass, but to protect the residents of Mt. Lebanon. Heck of a job Coleman!
The police are monitoring the Bird Park kill site. To summarize, we're paying more than the $75k (+ $12k) for this program. Isn't there anything better for the police to be doing on a snowy morning? What police services have been neglected during the time spent guarding the park(s?)?
With the game commission not caring, the MTL police on board, and Twin Hills residents wanting their landscapeing protected who's going to make a Twin Hills cull & kill an issue?
Scott possibly, but would Twin Hills meet the 150 yard safe zone available to a "private" landowner which Scott can't dispute?
You're jousting with windmills!
The only crack in the commissioners scheme is in the collussion apparent in the authoring of the RFP and the lone proposal submitted and accepted.
Godwin's Law: The theory that as an online discussion progresses (usually between anonymous posters), it becomes inevitable that someone or something will eventually be compared to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis, regardless of the original topic. Congrats 11:11, you win.
Dave Franklin
For once this anonymous poster agrees with Mr. Franklin. To compare the cull & kill to Nazi death camps is absurd and an insult to those that suffered at the hands of Adolf Hilter.
But, I'm curious Franklin, why are you chiming in now and on that particular comment?
No position on the cull? Are you attempting to change the topic and protect your turf approving buddies?
By the way, how are those extra turf created extra game slots working out for you this month?
Kids can't walk to a nice warm school, but your plastic million dollar turf will make practice and game times available in Frbruary and March frigid temperatures.
Thanks a lot!
Dave F - Do you want to help with the *stalking* part of this deer cull? There will be *stalking*, I am sure despite the corrals.
Dave Franklin is one of the Virginia Manor residents who wants the deer killed.
I am adding some photos of the Bird Park bait. Its location is about 257 ft. from Markham Elementary and is most accessible from the soccer field driveway/steps that connect Beadling Dr. to Youngwood Dr. So much for an elementary school to be in a gun free zone.
Elaine
7:35 PM Thank you. Your kind comment comforts me and justifies everything I have ben feeling about moving from our community based town to here.
My daughter and I have joked that this town is like Footloose, where there's no celebrating with dancing or fun. She was very disappointed that her school does not offer any events or encourage school spirit. Now, not only has her school disappointed her, the whole town where she lives has. She and my son are both very disturbed that the deer are being killed in such a way. All of her classmates are talking about it.
We spent a lot of our weekends at Bird Park, not now, I cannot even think of walking through there. I don't know if i'd be able to contain my anger towards the people who are responsible for all of this unnecessary killing.
First they kill the deer, who's next?
I had a talk with Commissioner Frasch a few weeks ago. I found her perspective refreshing compared to the others.
She said she would blame herself before the deer if she hit a deer by car or a deer ate her garden. She said it wouldn't cross her mind to blame them.
There you go folks the difference with our local government officials. She would review her own involvement prior to pointing the fingers.
This is rational. The deer kill program involves blaming the deer, PA Commission and the pro-deer people isn't rational.
#lovingmycommissioner
They proclaim they're culling deer to save peoples lives and prevent accidents.
How about plowing and salting the f*cking roads for the people that have to work or be out on a Saturday!
Yeah, I know the PIO and Feller don't work on Saturday and there is no money for extra salt because we have to buy plastic grass and kill deer.
My position on deer is pretty straightforward - I'm not a gardener, but I do have about 4 or 5 deer in my yard who eat what little we have around. My grandparents were lucky to escape a nasty car vs. deer accident on Rt. 28, and they weren't speeding, texting or using a cell phone. The deer tried to leap their Buick and ended up in their laps. So sure, I'm concerned that we may have a bad accident someday in Lebo and I think we'd probably be better off with fewer deer. Not to mention, many of the deer that I've seen around my home are injured. If they were our own pets, we probably put them down.
On days like today when I can look out in my backyard and see some deer in the snow, I'll admit it's pretty neat. My kids like them, especially the dwarf deer that they've named Hercules.
I can see it from both sides.
Ulltimately though, cull or don't cull, I really don't care. But for heaven's sake, make a decision and be done with it. Debating this issue for years on end is a waste of time, energy and resources. We elected 5 commissioners to make decisions, not take polls and count petition signatures. Do your due diligence, put it on an agenda, listen to comments, vote and move on.
Dave Franklin
ok. the bottom line.. i understand that SOME people dont like the current # of deer in our Township and want the numbers reduced... BUT any cull should be done in a humane manner. the current trapping method IS NOT Ok because it's not instantaneous..making the deer suffer for a longer period...
Also i think ive heard that the Chief lived or lives in the Markham area and it very very much prokill Deer at any means..
Mr. Franklin, you can get in an accident with a deer almost anywhere in Pennsylvania, so what is your point?
Killing 150 deer in Mt. Lebanon is going to reduce the chances of someone being injured in a deer incident in our neighborhoods by what, less than 1%?
Another point, what is the speed limit on Rt. 28 where the deer came through your grandparents windshield? How many deer have gone through windshields and ended up in peoples' laps?
Your example of the possile carnage from a MTL deer incident is as ludicrous as comparing the corrals to Nazi death camps.
Unfortunatrly, Mr. Franklin, we can't arrive at intelligent decisions because your buddies like to spin the facts, same as they did on the turf, the ad signs, naming rights and the high school renovation costs.
I agree with you, analyze a program, maintenance, or community enhancement and be done with it.
But do it without the PIO spinmeisters!
Mr. Franklin, who I know is a student of history, makes a valid point concerning our local commission, the members of which are elected to make decisions in our place. This is part of the DNA of the American system; the U.S. Constitution guarantees the states "a republican form of government" (NOT Republican), and not a democracy. The founders hated democracy, on the whole, and rejected the "rule of the mob." States have generally patterned their own governments after the Federal system - Pennsylvania is certainly a case in point - and local governments usually follow suit.
Having said this, there are two points that apply to our republican system in this town: 1)a commissioner has a moral obligation to pay some attention to vox populi, and 2)the voters have a moral obligation to advance candidates and vote for them. Commissioners elected by tiny fractions of registered voters can hardly be said to represent the majority of the residents in their wards! Thus, it is true that we have representatives, and it is true that they make decisions; what has NOT been demonstrated is that they make decisions in the best interests of majority of residents of this village. Some of us think the decisions they make are statist, ill informed, and will have long-term deleterious effects. But I will not condemn them for what they are, or acting in character, because I think they truly believe their own rhetoric.
9:44am, 10:02am, a holocaust survivor's opinion.
HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR NOW WORKS TO PROTECT FARM ANIMALS
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2014/08/24/Holocaust-survivor-now-works-to-protect-farm-animals/stories/201408240228
August 24, 2014 9:43 PM
By Andrew McGill / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Alex Hershaft left Warsaw’s ghetto long ago, but the stench of a slaughterhouse in Indiana sent him back to the Holocaust.
As the Holocaust survivor walked among piles of discarded animal parts — hearts, hooves, hides — he thought of Auschwitz and its heaps of shoes and glasses, which the German guards had stripped from doomed Jewish prisoners.
“The more I thought about it, the more I saw the parallels,” said Mr. Hershaft, now 80. “The efficiency of slaughter, the indifference of the perpetrators — like it was something totally normal.”
Thus began Mr. Hershaft’s decadeslong crusade on behalf of livestock and farm animals, a mission that brings him tonight to Pittsburgh. (Attendees can buy tickets here.)
He’ll speak about his journey at 7 p.m. at Rodef Shalom Congregation in Shadyside, a guest of the Jewish Vegetarians of North America and the Holocaust Center of Greater Pittsburgh.
“As far as we can tell, no officially accredited Holocaust center has ever done a program on this issue,” said Jeffrey Cohan, executive director of Jewish Vegetarians of North America. “This is the most extensive lecture he has ever given where he elaborates on how his ordeal in the Holocaust motivated him to do what he does.”
Born in 1934 in Poland, Mr. Hershaft grew up during Adolf Hitler’s rise to power.
Nazis pushed his family and thousands of others into the infamous Warsaw Ghetto, where his father was later killed.
Mr. Hershaft escaped shortly before the ghetto’s destruction, hiding out in Poland and spending five years in a refugee camp before coming to the United States to study.
Survivor’s guilt hit him hard.
For years, he struggled to find his niche, briefly campaigning against religious conservatism in Israel and joining the environmental movement in the United States.
Meanwhile, he received degrees from the University of Connecticut and Iowa State University, building a career in science, but it was the visit to the slaughterhouse that stuck.
Mr. Hershaft subsequently founded the Farm Animal Reform Movement, or FARM, in 1981 and was the host of a national conference on animal rights in Allentown, Pa.
While the advocates of the day concentrated more on animals undergoing scientific experimentation, FARM was among the first to focus on livestock and factory farming, an issue that has since hit the mainstream.
Mr. Hershaft has been a vegetarian for more than 50 years and a vegan for more than 30. Every morning, he drinks a frozen fruit smoothie at FARM’s office in his home in Bethesda, Md.; that usually lasts him until dinner, when he eats a salad or a soup.
His argument in favor of veganism is similarly spare: It’s good for animals, and it’s good for you.
“What we’re talking about is our obligation toward animals, not [to] oppress them and to use them for our personal gain,” Mr. Hershaft said. “Instead of getting into this complex philosophical argument [that] really sails over the heads of most people, we’re just telling them how good it is for their own health and of their own self-esteem to reduce the consumption of animals.”
9:44am and 10:02am
The Issue of Animal Cruelty
"This plan is inhumane. When the corral gate shuts, the deer will panic and slam into the fencing. The result will be broken legs and necks. If the city goes ahead with this misguided plan, we highly encourage residents to demand that an objective observer or the press be allowed to see this spectacle." Laura Simon, Wildlife Biologist, The Humane Society of the United States.
While much of the opposition to a deer killing program in Mt. Lebanon is focused on the safety issues, and resident concerns that the use of lethal weapons threatens their families, for others there is also the moral issue of animal cruelty.
I think the moral issue of animal cruelty is a very serious issue for many residents, which seems to be totally dismissed by the Commissioners and some residents.
The Commission appears to dismiss letters from The Humane Society of the United States opposing the inhumane, ineffective, and unnecessary brutal acts of violence toward the deer that will cause physical and emotional pain and suffering. The deer are sentient beings no different from the dogs that people love and consider family members. Mt. Lebanon markets itself as a "Community with Character", but a community with character wouldn't be charged with animal cruelty by the largest humane society in the world.
Some of the more disturbing issues for me personally are: Reading the past culling reports that counted the nearly full formed fetus fawns that were cut out of their mother's wombs. There's something ethically immoral and obscene to slaughter pregnant doe with her current fawns standing next to her. Deer live in small family units, and there are strong loving bonds between the doe and her fawns. Watching the struggling and thrashing deer smash into the sides of the corral in total panic and fear breaking their necks and legs trying to escape, and hearing the deer cry out in fear and pain when they're shot, may not bother some, but it bothers me and many others.
Below are a few quotes by Rev. Professor Andrew Linzey, a member of the Faculty of Theology at the University of Oxford.
"There is now ample scientific evidence in peer reviewed journals that all mammals experience stress, terror, shock, anxiety, fear, trauma, foreboding, as well as physical pain. Given this knowledge, it is simply illogical not to extend the same basic protection against the deliberate infliction of suffering to animals, which we ourselves enjoy."
"Humans are moral agents with the freedom to make moral decisions. ... What is so objectionable is that moral beings, who should know better, choose to engage in an activity that results in cruelty. There is all the difference in the world between the accidental or instinctual infliction of harm by non-moral things or agents, and the volitional infliction of suffering by moral agents. In short: it is the difference between an 'accident', or a 'misfortune', and a morally evil act."
"There are good theological grounds for regarding such acts as intrinsically objectionable. Human beings are made in the "image of God" and given "dominion" over animals. It is true that, in the past, both notions have been used to defend an exploitative attitude toward animals, but there are almost no scholars today who endorse that implication. Rather, we are to act as God's deputies -- made in the image of God who is holy, loving and just, and uniquely commissioned to care for creation as God cares. To the question, 'Why should we care for animals?' There is only one biblical answer: 'We are given that duty of care.' From this standpoint, the deliberate infliction of suffering on "lesser creatures" who are wholly in our power, and who are, strictly speaking, morally innocent, is a gross betrayal of our God-given responsibility."
Some murky business on this site. First, you portray all dissent as trolling. Then you make a policy that anonymous comments must agree with you, but that opposing views, whether polite or not, must be signed with a name. When someone signs their name, such as Dave Franklin, you preemptively research them and derisively presume their beliefs as their comment goes live. While I am sure you are a perfectly wonderful and compassionate person, a loving mother and a devoted wife, I, the anonymous commenter whose voice will not see the light of day, think that this behavior is pretty darn awful.
Are the entire Park grounds off limits in each Park for public use until April 1st., or is it only a radius or yardage from the bait corrals ?
Spent the morning in Bird Park and it was business as usual, with families, walkers, and dogs (and more dogs) every where. Did not see any police, cameras, etc. When we found the feeder, I was surprised how small the off-limits area around it actually was. But it is definitely in a bad spot, being stuck between two of the more well travelled paths in the park. I hope they give us all plenty of warning once the fences go up and the bullets start flying.
My husband and I saw the guy putting out the bait trap and Mt lebanon police posting no trespassing at the site. It is only 120 feet from the road right beside the school on Beadling. If you would be coming up Beadling from Cedar, you would see the sign saying about keeping dogs on leash across from driveway to school, If you walk in there make left on path it is about 50 feet in. There are small no trespassing signs around the perimeter of where the corral will be. The guy had a feeder with corn and put it right in the area where the signs were. I can't believe they are shooting so close to a school!! Thought you might want to have this information.
Make a note of this Lebo: the police are not too busy to stake out bait sites but they are too busy to __________, ________________, _______________, & __________________.
People are asking me what happens if they are harassed while in the parks. I don't know since I am not an attorney. I don't know what our rights are or who to call. However, these are public spaces. I don't think there is any harm in standing outside of the restricted areas, but again, I don't want to give people the wrong information. And please, I want everyone to be safe!
Elaine
I threw you a crumb, 3:17 PM. You can thank Kristen Linfante and a few Daves for my new policy.
Suck it up, 3:17 PM. There are worse things happening here.
Elaine
This might be of interest in that an action that creates a public health and safety hazard is illegal. Anonymous.
https://pennstatelaw.psu.edu/_file/aglaw/Pennsylvania_Nuisance_Law.pdf
What kind of sweat equity have the deer-killers put into their effort? Yes, they gathered signatures. But did they consider, say, purchasing a new car so they could have a vehicle that when it detects deer, it automatically begins braking? Hell, it's a no brainer.
http://www.techhive.com/article/2087882/new-volvo-xc90-can-spot-deer-or-moose-as-well-as-people.html
If I were obsessed with a fear of a motor vehicle collision with a deer, potentially resulting in a new type of municipal slaughter, a deer spotting vehicle would be at the top of my wish list. Because, hell, even with a yearly slaughter at every public park in Mt Lebanon, there will still be deer. Oh, dear.
Did the Parks Advisory Board issue a statement on the deer culling in the parks?
Did the Nature Conservancy?
I would think these groups would be in a position of influence as to appropriate use of the parks.
9:46
Of course not, this rogue Commission does whatever it wants without consulting related boards. e.g. toxic turf project I'd be willing to bet that they never even consulted those groups.
If the Commission really cares about nuisance animals, maybe they would start addressing the excessive ground cover in our parks that serves as a haven for rats and rat breeding. We sure do have many rats in Mt. Lebanon! (and I am talking about the ones with tails.)
Ditto for my neighbor behind my house! He has a mulch pile and keeps adding his cut grass, leaves, branches, etc.... through the year. We've had our share of rats and mice. Not to mention he doesn't prune his trees and thinks that when the trees fall on our property, we have to take care of it ourselves or hire someone to do so. Plus when his trees/branches come down it takes down the cable and power lines. We've had enough of his negligence!
11:20 PM, call Animal Control or the code enforcement officer. They should be able to help you. Or email your commissioner.
Has anyone found anything in the conservation district? Plus, did anyone find anything in Twin Hills?
Finally, did anyone living near the killing fields ever receive a letter from the municipality, as Susan Morgans indicated last week?
Elaine
Our municipality is approaching deer the way one would exterminate rats. Our town should be ashamed of itself for this systematic, unsportsmanlike and unnatural way to exterminate Pennsylvania's official state animal. Deer are not rats with hooves.
Let's compare deer with rats.
1) Rats are disease vectors for humans. Deer are not.
2) Rats are commensal pests, depending on humans for their survival in large numbers. Deer do just fine without people.
3) Rats reproduce beyond the capacity of their harborage and spread out of control. They have litters of 6-8 every two months. While deer show up in unexpected places, they have a gestation period and pregnancy similar to humans.
On this Sunday, it is fitting to refer to what the Bible has to say about deer.
2 Samuel 22:34 "He gives me the agility of a deer; he enables me to negotiate the rugged terrain."
Pennsylania hunters are familiar with the rugged terrain deer navigate with ease. Part of hunting is the thrill of the chase, and providing food for the family through hunting is a rich tradition in Pennsylvania. Using microprocessor controlled feeders to shape deer behavior and text-messaging cage traps to cowardly restrain wild animals until they can be conveniently dispatched is a sick, demented way of solving a non-existant problem.
Deer are beautiful, graceful animals. King Solomon wrote Naomi was like a deer:
Solomon 5:18 "May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in your young wife –
5:19 a loving doe, a graceful deer;"
The doe and deer, both implied comparisons, exhibit the grace and love of the wife.
Surely, Solomon was not looking at Mt. Lebanon deer thrashing about in hog traps until they meet their untimely demise at the hands of hired exterminators.
Twin Hills was thoroughly criss-crossed yesterday, including by several people who live right by it and know it very well. No feeders. What about the Connor road site? Has anyone even looked there? It's really important to know what's going on and what stage their roll-out is at.
Pertaining to Bird Park placement of bait/kill station being 257 ft from school:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990
The Gun-Free School Zones Act (GFSZA) is a federal United States law that prohibits any UNAUTHORIZED individual from knowingly possessing a firearm at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone as defined by 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(25).
The two permitted individuals are authorized.
It still makes me wonder how our chief of police did not know about this law with all the school shootings that have taken place the past few years. Is the man that incompetent or was he trying to bend the rules to appease a certain group of people?
Nick M.
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