Thursday, December 22, 2011
So...what about that rifle range?
Since I know absolutely nothing about the rifle range, the team, etc., I started a new poll about the School Board's decision to nix the rifle range. Based on two requests from a previous post to start a new thread on the rifle range, I am leaving it up to you folks to comment.
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42 comments:
I'd like to know the annual per participant cost for each sport before voicing an opinion.
Giffen Good
Football and Basketball are the most expensive sports. Bill Hook
What is the all-in cost per particpant per year.
If its $4,000 or $5,000 per footballer, basketballer or swimmer maybe we need to start thinking about cutting the budget or charging fees to the students that want to play.
Same for every sport. The question is how much do we want to invest in a sport or a program for our students? Why should academic oriented students that maybe don't have the physique or ambition suffer scholastically for the benefit of a few?
And don't yell at me, the board is using that criteria to decide on the rifle team facility.
Giffen Good
I actually like high school sports by the way. Just trying to understand the methodogy behind deciding who wins and who loses.
Mr. Good, what evidence do you have that non-athletes suffer academically because of the athletic programs? Do these same students suffer because of the 100+ piece marching band, the orchestra, the jazz band, the school musical or the art programs?
The Rifle Team has excelled and won WIPIALs previously. This traditional sport is not the most popular, but it provides for participation of male and female students who don’t fit into the football or other more popular sports molds. It’s not like the glorified Friday Night Lights with the Blue Devil splendor - bands playing, fans cheering and evening news.
Like everything else with this board and administration though, the bully squeaky wheels will probably get the oil, the popular teams will have all the amenities paid for by the residents and rifle kids will just have to go away.
Nice try Anon 10:22.
The question is not one of who's sugffering. But as to whom is going to lose out.
Once again go back and listen to the budget meetings. Every year I've heard the board proclaim that they are asking departments to find 5% budget reductions.
Don't ask me, ask the teachers (if they'll respond honestly). I know the art department was crying about supplies. I'm pretty sure the music dept. was weeping about sheet music.
Is that suffering, maybe not.
Is cutting a neighborhood elementary school academic suffering? Maybe not, but especially if its not yours.
Is 24 or more students in an elementary classroom as opposed to 21 or 22 suffering?
What part of a $2.4 million budget hole don't you comprehend?
The state's out of money, the fed's are out of money and many of your neighbors are out of money too.
These cuts are all things the board is considering. I didn't make them bring it up, they did it on their own.
So you come back in 2-3 years and tell me if your smart ass question is an intelligent one or not.
Remember these people controlling the district... they're the same ones that assured you in a glossy mailer the project would be done for under $95 million.
Mr. Good!
By the way Anon 10:22 I don't give a hoot whether the rifle team goes or not.
Same with soccer.
I enjoy football, baseball and tennis. I'd love to see diving added to the swim team, but I don't see that being affordable.
I also enjoy the orchestra and band as well as the theatre.
So if you're asking me to fight for all the programs and neigborhood schools Mt. Lebanon is reknown for or instead support some silly bridge over Horsman Drive.
I think my position is obvious.
Mr. Good
Nice try at what? Mr. Good expressed an interest in understanding how decisions are made about athletic programs. He couched it by saying that non-athletes presumably suffer because of the money spent on these programs. My question was merely to demonstrate - once again - that you can't blame everything on athletics. Other extracurricular activities cost money too. If we're counting nickles spent on non-academic pursuits, well then please count them all. Spare me your lecture.
You're right to some extent. These topics have blended a bit and I overlooked the fact that I discussed rlsrwhere that academic programs may be the next to experience cuts. Below was my post under another heading.
You're dead wrong though in your attempt to paint me as anti- athletics.
I think they're great and students are foolish if they don't take advantage of as many extracurricular activities the district provides as they cam. Those extras... athletic, accademic, artistic are what makes MTLSD great. The walls and bridges don't!
Here's that comment:
"Anon 8:23, thats just the point. As things get tighter the board is going to start looking for places to cut or charge for. This year it might be the rifle team. Next year it might be the drum line or a forensic team trip that gets cut.
Ask the art department what has been happening to their supply budget every year!"
December 22, 2011 8:52 PM
Mr. Good
Anon 11:19. Once again I believe we've found a common thread (as we have before I'll bet).
You wrote: "If we're counting nickles spent on non-academic pursuits, well then please count them all."
Yes indeed all, football, soccer, tennis - lets count them all and and the academic programs as well. Then see where that leaves us. I believ thats the very thing Mr. Hart and Mr. Fraasch suggested years ago.
We know we have a $2.4 million hole. So how best do we fill it and still maintain the MTLSD programs.
Mr. Good
Giffen, RE: Anon 10:22
I do get it.
Maybe the fair way to do it would be to cut all athletic-related amenities (all of it including swimming, rifle, dancing, cheerleading, ultimate Frisbee and tiddlywinks) out of the pig-in-a-poke design and also cut the ongoing operating costs for these programs out of the base budget. Then, look at what is needed for the district’s operating expenses (including salaries, benefits, cushion for PSERs and health care costs and programming) and basic renovation costs to support academics for academic programming related expenses.
Once that fuzzy screen is in focus, why not consider the gaping $2.4 M hole. (not sure just where the Kubit glossy brochure anticipating an “under $95 Million” construction cost for the whole bowl of wax fits yet). OK, now from that, figure out how many students participate in the various programs and spread the $ around evenly to be fair. Whatever there is, let them submit their statistics and then decide what to do with the $. Any revenue being generated by outside use of the facilities should be taken into account.
In the end, it’s really a matter of SETTING A BUDGET and then spending accordingly. There is an old way of dealing with problem solving around “quantitative methodology” – applying limited resources to current demand. This reasoning requires higher-level problem solving expertise, something the board and administration does not appear to embrace. This is just a very basic first pass solution, but there are ways to analyze problems and solve them more deliberately than politically.
I think the real issue with the rifle team is not about the range at the high school but the sport itself. Let's face it; in left-leaning Mt. Lebanon guns are not exactly PC. The fact that teaching a young person how to handle a firearm builds responsibility and character isn't going to cut any ice with the cognoscenti; they will say that a football has the same potential, and maybe it has, but a football doesn't have the potential to kill you.
In Switzerland every male, on or near his 20th birthday, is issued a rifle and taught how to use it. He is required to keep it in his home, along with fifty rounds of ammunition. If you go to a grocery store in Switzerland you may run into a young man with his Sig 550 slung over his back. The usual retort to this information is that in Switzerland militia duty is mandatory - and so it is! However, at the end of a young man's ten year obligation he has the option of keeping his weapon (the Army does, however, modify it from full-automatic to semi-automatic). Thus it is that the peace-loving and cranky Swiss have one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world - and one of the lowest gun homicide rates as well. It is also one of the reasons why the Swiss have a passion for target shooting. (Update: A recent attempt to tighten gun ownership laws in Switzerland was soundly defeated.)
It is a shame that the rifle team will eventually be a thing of the past. My youngest daughter wanted to join it when she was wading her way through MLHS, but had scheduling conflicts, and thus had to do her shooting with her old dad. She turned out to be an excellent shot - like her old dad.
Richard Gideon
Kinda glad I don't live in Switzerland.....
One other point: While I believe that a few Board members are sincere when they say they support the MLHS Rifle Team, I believe that, collectively, the Board breathed a sigh of relief when the range was cut from the new edifice. Making the range the issue and not the sport is great cover for any member with an anti-gun bias.
If I thought I'd get an answer from each Board member and Dr. Steinhauer, I would ask each one; 1)Have you ever fired a rifle or handgun?; 2)Have you made any attempt to promote the MLHS Rifle Team?; 3)Do you own a gun?; 4)Do you have a carry permit? I have a suspicion that an honest answer to the last question might raise some eyebrows in this community.
Richard Gideon
Mr. Gideon, I think you're a bit off target (pun intended) to suggest that the deletion of the rifle range was part of some liberal anti-gun lobby. I think the reality is - as so many balanced budget advocates have pointed out here - there is not enough money to go around.
A $400,000 rifle range is indeed a luxury, probably by anyone's standards. The stadium, pool and gyms are "extras" but they have multiple uses and multiple users. They are used by students (male and female alike), residents and non-residents. They are, I would argue, a focal point of the community. See Relay for Life, for example.
I don't know this for a fact, but I'm inclined to believe that Mt. Lebanon is one of the few local high schools that even has a rifle range on campus. As such, the elimination of the rifle range does not automatically lead to the elimination of the rifle team. If the rifle team wants to survive, it certainly can do so. Currently, most of the varsity teams raise money for their respective sports, and some of that money goes towards renting practice facilities off campus. Field hockey, baseball and lacrosse all come to mind as sports that currently or have in the past rent space off site. Other sports raise money to play games out of town (girls/boys basketball), to pay coaches and otherwise offset the limited budget dollars that are allotted to their sports. Still further, most second tier sports scratch and claw just to get an hour or two a week on the turf. Turf time is by no means a given, even if your team is a sports that plays its home games on a field! many supporters of the field hockey and lacrosse programs might argue that the rifle team has had it made for decades with its exclusive practice facility.
I'm sure it won't be long before a number of the field sports are looking to raise stiil MORE money or fighting for their survival generally. At some point, other second tier sports (like rifle) will undoubtedly be targeted by the budget ax. At that point, should I ask the Board (1) have you ever played field hockey, (2) have you made any attempt to promote the MLHS golf team; (3) do you own a lacrosse stick; (4) do you have a USGA certified handicap? I'm sure their answers would be the same as the answers to your gun questions . . . and so what? It's not about guns.
Dave Franklin
Looks like the right wing gun lovers in USC are struggling to pay for their rifle range as well:
USC rifle continues; just at different range
By Carla Valentine Myers for The Almanac
Upper St. Clair High School's rifle team is having to rent the use of a neighboring school district's range for at least this season due to a malfunctioning ventilation system.
"Rather than eliminate the program, and in order to provide a program for our students, the district is working with Bethel Park to rent its facility for approximately $260 per week," Superintendent Patrick O'Toole said in an e-mail.
USC's high school rifle range cannot be used presently because the ventilation system in that range is not working properly. Proper ventilation in a rifle range is imperative because of the discharge from the ignition of lead bullets.
O'Toole told the school board Nov. 14 that the use of non-lead bullets was investigated. However, that is not feasible in competitive shooting.
O'Toole added in the e-mail that the ventilation system in the range is separate from the system for the entire building. The initial cost estimate for repairing the (rifle range) system is in the neighborhood of $100,000.
"We are in the process of receiving more specific pricing," O'Toole said.
"This cost is offset by some savings from not having to provide supervision of our students during practices at our high school for a larger number of team members."
Because of the limitations of using Bethel Park, USC has given priority to the former members of the team. The team is not open to freshmen."
As it stands now, the rifle team will not be able to host matches this season.
"We are not able to make our arrangement with Bethel Park work for hosting matches," he said in the e-mail. "Therefore, unless we can find an alternate home site, these matches will be away. This will add a transportation cost for seven matches."
He told the school board that district staff had a meeting with parents of team members.
"Our parents have expressed an interest in helping the district with the financial support of the team," he said in the e-mail.
Michael Polens asked the school board back in October to consider fixing the ventilation system so that the rifle team can practice at home and host matches this season.
The senior said the team would like to be able to practice and compete here, rather than having to be transported to Bethel Park for practice and have no opportunity for home matches this season.
A four-year letterwinner in rifle, Polens added that it is a "very safe sport."
"When we are shooting we are all very disciplined," he said.
Polens said being on the rifle team teaches the students values that are useful for all of life. Plus, he noted, it is one of the least expensive sports in which to participate.
Under the district's pay-to-play system, the fee for participation during the 2011-2012 school year is $50 per student. This is half of the $100 fee to participate in football or basketball, for example.
The rifle team competes during the winter sports season, which runs through February.
While Polens' request was considered, Harry Kunselman, school board president, noted that the board is struggling with financial decisions.
O'Toole mentioned in his e-mail, however, that the district say the present setup as a means of getting us through this year.
"Because of financial concerns, all of our programs are under review. So, I cannot say at this point what the future will be for the team."
As of the school board's Nov. 14 meeting, the budget projected for the 2012-2013 year has a $1.5 million shortfall.
The school board is considering possible routes to raise taxes higher than its current state limit of 0.337 mills, in order to prevent or minimize staffing and other cuts.
Mr. Franklin:
Thank you for your input.
For the record, I did not use the word "Liberal" in my original post. Here is what I said: "Let's face it; in left-leaning Mt. Lebanon guns are not exactly PC." There is quite a difference between a leftist and a liberal. As a libertarian, I am a liberal - a classical liberal, in the vein of Thomas Jefferson, Federick Bastiat, etc. Second, I have no problem with Mr. Remely's argument, which is logical. If the District finds a way to keep the sport going - great! However, you will recall from the last Board meeting that a couple of Directors said that if the rifle range is eliminated it is likely that the sport will go with it. I must trust that they would not have said that if they didn't believe it. Third, the point of my second post was to suggest that knowing the answers to my questions might shed some light as to the motives of each Board Director. You are a lawyer - do you not ask questions that attempt to address the question of motive? Is this not in the spirit of that great Pennsylvania lawyer and jurist, Hugh Henry Brackenridge? If you were to ask the Directors about field hockey or Lacrosse sticks - fine! I have no problem with that.
And finally, while there may not be an "anti-gun lobby," if you think there is not a collective anti-gun attitude in Mt. Lebanon I would respectfully suggest that you have not lived here very long. Am I wrong is saying that "guns" are not politically correct in this town? "Guns" is a subject you do not bring up with your neighbors, unless you intend to condemn them. And did I not read in one of your posts (was it about culling deer?) that you "hate guns?"
Richard Gideon
PS: I wish you and yours a very Merry Christmas (or holiday of your choice)and a Happy 2012!
Lets try to approach the problem of keeping the rifle range and team mathematically.
How about this solution? There are about 400 employees in the school district. If each employee was to give back a measly $4 per month the district would save $1,600 per month.
$4 x 400 staff = $1,600.
Keep in mind. the district was all too happy to suggest residents can afford fork over $18/month for the high school project. I think the rationale was it was less than one latte a week for the kids. We're asking staff here to give up one latte A MONTH. Hardly a sacrifice, right?
So what does that do you may ask, "$1,600 is peanuts!" Well...
$1,600/month x 12 month = $19,200.
$19,200/year x 30 years = $576,000
So, for a paltry give back by the employees we save more than enough to finance the rilfe range and then some!
So why you ask save the team.
I'd say it gives 25 students each their 'shot' at WPIAL sports stardom. Maybe we'll even develop a future Olympian.
Twenty-five students isn't a lot, I know per year.
But over 30 years you've given 750 students an opportunity to engage in a sport for a measly latte a month.
Think of the opportunity to contract range time for a fee to USC, thereby making them give us money for others Lebo sports so we can kick their butts Rah rah and all that good stuff.. And the opportunity for those so inclined to say Lebo is affluent enough to have a range when they can't is worth the price of admission.
Giffen Good
By the way my word verification for this comment is - gester
During my 45 yrs of living in Mt. Lebanon, I can honestly say I don't recall any debate, discussion or other event to suggest that our community is either pro-gun or anti-gun. Personally, I can't say that I've ever even thought about it. I have plenty of friends in Lebo who hunt and I can't recall thinking any less of them for doing so. My dad owned a gun growing up in Lebo and he learned to use it from his dad who owned a gun in Lebo. Your generalizations befuddle me Mr. Gideon.
PS: I hate guns. Always will. Probably an overreaction, but as the father of three that's my choice. However, I do enjoy the fellowship associated with a good bird hunt every now and again. Don't tell anyone but I'm not much for figure skating, volleyball, swimming, bowling or cross country either.
Dave Franklin
Mr. Franklin while your attitude regarding firearms is certainly interesting, I'm at a loss as to how it pertains to the debate here on renovating the range now in the high school project, committing a future board to do it at a later date from general funds or dropping the sport.
Yes, I'm aware Mr. Gideon brought up the topic of the pro/con gun debate. That is another debate wecan take up later. Lets stick to the subject. Do we insist the board build the range or eliminate it?
Just some wiki background on the team...
"The Mt. Lebanon rifle team won the WPIAL Championship for the 2006-07 year, and tied for first place in WPIAL Section One with their team record. They went on to place third in the state-level competition. They have also won the WPIAL Championship in: 2003, 1987, 1971, as well as the state shoot in 1958."
I say it deserves to be in the project, especially since the board promised we wouldn't lose any programs.
Giffen Good
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S.
is 80,000,000.
(Yes, that's 80 million)
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths
per year, all age groups,is
1,500.
(C) The number of accidental deaths
per gun owner is
.000188.
Statistics courtesy of FBI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So, statistically, doctors are approximately
9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Remember, 'Guns don't kill people, doctors do.'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN,
BUT
Almost everyone has at least one doctor.
This means you are over 900 times more likely to be killed by a doctor as by a gun owner!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Please alert your friends to this alarming threat.
We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Out of concern for the public at large, I withheld the statistics on lawyers
for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention!
Bill Hook
First, I guess I have to chuckle for a minute. I've been told the sports lobby is evil and the source of every tax raise in Lebo. I've been told that the high school project is largely out of line because of the sports lobby. I've been told we can't afford new fields in Lebo because it's an unfair burden on the tens of thousand who don't use them. However, now I'm asked to defend a half million dollar rifle range. Really? Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle. Personally, I don't care one way or the other if we have it or not. However, the people who have suggested that this project has too much fluff or too much sports in it, shouldn't be asking me (the dastardly voice of the sports groups) to justify this addition or deletion. Build it, delete it, I really don't care. Heck, Mr. Gideon will tell you, you want it, you pay for it!!!
Further Mr. Good, if we want to apply your success justifies spending argument, we should be building a gigantic arena exclusively for girls basketball and another stadium for boys lacrosse. Their success has been unparalleled in Lebo over the last decade, yet their families are asked to spend and raise more money than most of the other sports.
Noticeably absent from this discussion are the many known and anonymous posters who have suggested that we are spending too much on this project generally and too much on sports. Perhaps they lopped off this $500,000 expense because they've been listening to you . . .
My original posts above at 7:49am and 8:21am were not intended to veer away from the issue of the elimination of the rifle range from the new edifice, but rather to suggest that in making the case that it is too expensive for the number of kids using it the Board can eliminate a sport that I suspect the majority of Directors see as promoting guns, which they oppose (lip service to the contrary notwithstanding). I truly believe that if one is to make a case for keeping the range one must try and understand the mind-set of those opposed to it.
That being said, I was quite clear in stating that I feel the sport is more important than the physical location of the range, and if the District can arrange for the team to continue in another venue then I have no problem with that decision. In all fairness to Mr Franklin he was responding to some of the points I raised (but not all of them) in his reply to me. I apologize to Mr. Good (or anyone else for that matter) if I did not make this clear.
Mr. Hook - yours of 5:11pm is hilarious!
Richard Gideon
Mr. Franklin, sometimes I really wonder about you. Where anywhere here did I say...how'd you put it... "success justifies spending"? You may have thought you read that, but just as you've somehow managed to spin opposition to the high school project or the McNeilly fields into your "imaginary evil sports victimization" you're way off base.
I made a case for not changing anything in the project or the programming as it stands today except to add in the rifle range. I even made a suggestion for funding it with practically no pain for anyone. That'll fly with the district like a ton of bricks, of course.
I'd never argue that a new gym, pool, stadium or rifle range will suddenly create or continue stellar athletic achievements! I would argue that not having a facility or a sport will definitely not create winners though in that particular venue!
I'm sorry you feel the victim, thats a shame.
Giffen Good
Anon 6:03, highly doubtful, since they haven't listened to us so far. That sure would be ironic just as the refreshments served after the groundbreaking will be in the very building that is being demolished. Also ironic, all the school board meetings have been held in the same building, even where the directors were sworn in by Judge Randal Todd.
What's the point of discussing it? The board will do whatever they please.
Elaine
To quote Mr. Gideon from August, "[Sports facilities] are all commendable forms of entertainment. As to whether I think it is the responsibility of a local government to provide these things?; the answer is no. Do I think that the major role of a local government is to provide protection for its residents and infrastructure?; yes. Do I object to local governments providing their residents with parks and other forms of entertainment?; no – if the local government in question can afford it."
Perhaps they decided they can't afford it . . .
The anonymous poster of 6:30pm is 100% correct! However, there is some essential context missing. Anonymous 6:30pm - to whom do I have the honor to address?
Richard Gideon
Richard, its useless since there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of cognitive thinking going with comments like Anon 6:30.
The board told them they can't afford the rifle range and the project can proceed because right now, this minute its under the Act 34 limit.
It doesn't matter that the district has a $2.4 million budget hole, that unfunded pensions will create bigger problems down the road or that a long standing spots program may go away. Nor do they believe they might close a neighborhood school, charge for student parking, AP courses, sports and arts participation. None of it will touch them, so they believe!
Its just like Miracle on 34th Street. "I believe! I believe!"
So when does this come into play? http://lebocitizens.blogspot.com/2011/06/woowhoo.html
Elaine
Anon 9:06, who is "them"?
Hey all; I'd just like to see sidewalks for our kids to walk safely to school. Then lets start talking about rifle ranges.
Looks like that could be a caption for a previous post.
"Dale, how about we build more bridges in this community? It's for the children."
Them is anon 6:30pm.
In regards to their closing sentence... of course they [the district] can't afford it! Not spending on buildings and staffing as they historically have been.
There's a reason the pension fund is in trouble and its because of football programs or rifle ranges
Mr. Hook;
Your analysis is flawed. Your stats say, "accidental" gun deaths. However, not all gun deaths are accidental. Doctors are not more dangerous than guns. In 2007 there were 17,352 suicides by guns. There were 12,632 homicides. That's a bit more than the 1500 you quoted.
By the way, I'd like to see the rifle range built. The team has a strong tradition in Lebo and I'd like to see that continue.
Oooops, meant to type....
There's a reason the pension fund is in trouble and its [not] because of football programs or rifle ranges.
[or academic programs]
December 23, 2011 10:04 PM
The pension fund is in trouble because the political public service unions lost money and have bribed our legislators with political contributions to tax others for their expected entitlement - sounds just like the Deadbeat Athletic Supporters to me.
John Ewing
The year wouldn't be complete without one more of those comments from Ewingu
Anonymous said ... December 26, 2011 2:49 PM "The year wouldn't be complete without one more of those comments from Ewingu"
However, Anonymous December 26, 2011 2:49 PM you didn't mention Mr. Ewing happens to be right with his facts and figures. Happy New Year Mr. Ewing, keep your comments coming. But remember it’s not any one group of people who have taken us to the brink of a much divided community and into financial ruin, its two people Dr. Allen and Jan Klein and their push for all that’s shiny and new. Neither of them live in Mt. Lebanon so it must be okay for them to use our tax dollars without asking us.
Can you give me one "fact" in any of Ewing's post that supports his allegations about youth sports?
I’ve found a Christmas present for golfers– a Weed Whacking Golf Driver.
This is the golf driver with a built-in grass trimmer, ideal for surreptitiously improving one's lie. Destined for use by friendly foursomes that often find themselves in the rough, the club looks like an oversized driver that fits into any golf bag, yet a simple flick of a button on its plastic bottom flips open the club's bottom to reveal a single-string grass trimmer. Requiring only the semblance of a square stance and proper grip for operation, two thumb buttons built into the handle activate the trimmer for a quick clearing of obstructive grass. Six AA batteries needed are not included. Bill Hook
I really hope MTL High School doesn't eliminate the rifle team. I was a second string shooter - 95 to 100, averaging points. I wasn't very athletic, but I found great camaraderie with my teammates and had a coach that believed in me. Coach Rich Lippert was a fair and great coach. He held us to high standards in training & in competition, and promoting gun safety as well. We learned better eye coordination & mental concentration. It was a great joy to shoot a 10x every now and then back in the day. It was honor that my teammates went on to win the 1987 WPIAL Rifle Championship. I'm willing to donate to a fund that would save the rifle team.
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