This should give residents additional information, in time for the March 10, 2014 TOD meeting, starting at 6:00 PM at the Municipal Meeting. Dan Remely also announced this meeting, which is scheduled to be from 6:00 to 8:00 PM, in his board report at last night's school board meeting.
Thank you, Eric for providing this study in a timely manner. The Transit-Oriented Development (TOD) Project Market Analysis is available here.
28 comments:
This report suggest Lebo is a built-out community with no available space and pent-up demand.
Then they need to explain why there are empty building lots next to St. Winfreds, at the top of Country Club and over by Robb Hollow just to name a few.
As far as townhomes didn't they want to do that on the Zamagias property after the condos didn't fly?
What about the empty commercial/retail space next to St. Clair hospital?
Now we're looking to compete with Castle Shannon for townhouse/rental tenents?
Do we allow Castle Shannon-like people to shop and dine in the bubble?
The study is quite comprehensive and well done. No real surprises, but good and timely to have a set of independent and professional eyes on this prospective project prior to RFP's.
Hope the Parking Advisory Board is formally and officially brought into this for opinions about parking. As described and valued, parking *kills* the hi-density options. Did Delta do a parking analysis on the construction cost and operation of spaces based on only the lesser numbers required by zoning rather than 240 spaces ? It would not likely change the end result that much, but would complete the analysis.
The construction cost of the 240 space garage is over twice that of R.S. Means average cost estimates for a similar sized stand alone garage with elevators. This is primarily due to cost premiums associated with building over the PAT LRT tracks when you are limited to construction from only about 2am-5am weekdays.
The second bullet on page 1 interests me. Their study indicates a higher household income than the surrounding areas but the report doesn't mention how the increased level of income influences purchasing decisions in the market.
In particular, we need to establish how a $10,000 incremental increase in household income would be spent after all of the income taxes are paid. Is what's left going to be spent on housing (investment) or would we simply add to disposable income and an increase in consumption?
Shouldn't we understand the spending patterns before we plan new development? A pull-system is going to be more effective than a push-system - Zamangas development at Washington and Bower Hill Road is an example of what happens when we don't fully understand consumer behavior in the market.
My personal opinion is that the incomes in Mt Lebanon aren't high enough to support that "affluent aire" that was communicated in the report. If Mt Lebanon wants to become the affleunt community that it once was, then the region needs to generate incomes that will support that outcome; and frankly, I don't see that happening.
I truly believe that Mt Lebanon has tremendous potential, but the path to prosperity will come from smaller and more efficient government, lower taxes and increased pride in home ownership ( get a broom and clean the community up ). Unless homeowners and neighbors take the initative to assume these responsibilities without government assistance we're never going to get anything off the ground.
1:22 if we go with the low density option of townhouses and apartments on Shady and in front of the T line don't we lose the parking spaces that Washington Rd. businesses are clamoring for more of?
Plus once the Hotel Tyvek opens won't parking become even more of a nightmare?
Surely all the hotels guest aren't arriving on the T. Where will they park their vehicles? Where will the hotel staff park?
Expanding the current garage over the T line may at some point become a neccessity to accomodate the restaurant and shopping expansion from the hotels impact. At least one should hope that hotel stimulates new activity.
Perhaps we should hold off a year or two and see how things develope once the hotel is up and running.
If retail and restaurants come clamoring for space the hi-rise may become profitable for a developer.
1:44PM. Welcome to Lebo, you must be a newcomer and totally unaware. The hotel will have two floors of underground parking with 88 spaces for guests. If the occupancy ever exceeds 85% (doubtful), they will use and pay for daily parking in the nearby Academy Ave Lot, which is never full.
1:34 PM. The Zamagias fiasco was doomed from the get-go, approved only because of gross and blatant conflicts of interest involving several local public officials. Who in their right mind would purchase a Zamagias luxury $500,000 condo on a state highway with Section 8 hi-rise apartments less than 80 yards away, surrounded on each side with old, dilapidated apartments, an antiquated auto parts store across the street next door to which is a monster church that rings very loud church bells very frequently ? Location, location, location !
The competing proposal was for moderately priced 1&2 bedroom mid-rise rental apartments, which well suited the market then and now. But the "fix was in", as they say, and that developer and proposal was misrepresented and trashed by local public officials.
3:39, I am familar with the problem, but my point was simply that economic initiatives are more likely to succeed if we understand consumption patterns BEFORE we start building.
My concern with the report is that we don't have actionable data. It's nice to know the income level... so what? Will that income level support the type of development that many in the community want to see?
I'd hate to see us realize our view of the world and find out too late that it's not what the consumers want.
3:54 the Delta study and previous reports provide more than ample background for a qualified developer, with additional facts that he/she can develop, to make a reasoned proposal. The purpose of the Delta study is not to tell a developer what specifically to propose.
The test for Mt. Lebanon will be to keep their bureaucratic hands out of trying to orchestrate a politically inspired end result. Unfortunately, a TOD automatically qualifies a project for TIF-like tax subsidy. Mt Lebanon has a very poor record of managing (mangling) anything with an actual or prospective TIF, e.g. the Bannow project, Galleria and Zamagias boondoggle.
1:44, not new here and also aware.
Personally, when I check into a hotel, unless they have a valet, I park in the non-handicap spot available near the door. At the Tyvek that might be a metered spot on Washington.
I also might leave it there until I've freshened up and ready to leave for a meeting or engagement.
Not fighting with you, I'd prefer the free market, not government control development in our community.
This isn't Duquesne of the Hill.
Correction- This isn't Duquesne [or] The Hill District or any other blighted community.
This is MT. LEBANON-- we're #11 on the wealthiest school districts list!
Mr. Kendrick:
Yours of February 25, 2014 at 1:34 PM is well stated. To expand upon it, I have maintained for some time that, having lived in the Hamptons of Long Island, our local officials do not have the foggiest idea of what "affluent" actually means.
The demographics of this area have changed over the years and the "baby boom" is long over. That does not necessarily have to be a bad thing. Many studies have shown that the current retiring "baby boomers" are richer by far than their parents were at a comparable age, largely due to inheritances and good financial planning. (This is not the case for everybody over 50, of course.)
Unfortunately our municipal and school district "leaders" are laboring under the delusion that Mt. Lebanon is populated by rich young adults and their scions.
Even if our "leaders" could eliminate 50% of the people they detest - older people who insist on staying in the homes they worked a lifetime to pay for - it still wouldn't work out for them. Young families are smart enough to know that better values await them elsewhere. And instead of concentrating on the kinds of things that local governments should do - such as infrastructure - they direct their efforts towards turfed fields and impressive school buildings; things that require high taxes and drive away the very people our "leaders" say they want.
Instead of limiting the conversation to their "pals," our "leaders" should consult with some reputable economists and have a sober conversation about just what kind of direction the village should assume. They may find that a favorable reputation could be earned by saving taxpayer money instead of spending it.
5:08, I have to disagree. If your reasoning was correct then developments from what you call "qualified developers" would never fail - and we both know that is not the case.
We need to understand more about the consumption patterns of the expected demographic. The younger generation has distinctly different tastes and preferences from their parents. We see it in their disposable income and in their "big ticket purchases" like cars and housing.
A successful development will target the need of the market, and we're still shooting into the dark...
Well, let's see. Another study, check. Still no concrete action proposals, check. No actionable recommendations, check. No otions or alternatives presented, check. No RFP to move forward with a project (an essential part of the scope of work), check. More re-reading and digesting of the dust-encrusted library of prior TOD reports, check.
So, for yet another $85,000 in study, we know nothing we didn't already know and we have no concrete advice for options or actions. We did not get the RFP for a project which is acknowledged as a deliverable in the report itself.
One thing is sure, we are worse off now than before the Commission decided to do yet another study, because, as the new study clearly details, all our competitors (Dormont, Castle Shannon, South Hills Village, etc.) have already got projects well underway, and there is no way for Mt. Lebanon to catch up. Whatever appetite is out there for development will be at best skimmed, if not exhausted before we can act.
And we still have no RFP, even after contracting for one. The Commission continues to fiddle as we watch all of our neighbors move ahead. If the race goes to the swift, we should save the entry fee.
7:50, now we are chasing Dormont and Castle Shannon, my goodness how far and how hard we've fallen.
This was in Pittsburgh Business Times on Tuesday.
Shannon Station adds apartments, partners
Elaine
From the Biz Times article:
"A key issue, he said, is what kind of rents a TOD here can command.
“I think it’s a classic transit deal,” he said. “From what I read about happening around the country, we don’t have the strong rents they have say in Maryland or Virginia, where they’re getting $2 (a square foot) or more than $2.”
He estimated the value here would be around $1.70.
Aiello said he’s optimistic about the project and hopes to break ground on construction in about four months."
Rents of $1.70/sf as opposed to $2/sf in other areas of the country. On top of that bad news, we're going to sink tax dollars into to competing TOD projects about a mile apart.
Are these people out of their minds?
2/27 at 8:24: Indeed, you have a deep insight. The high and mighty Mt. Lebanon has now fallen behind even Dormont and Castle Shannon -- do you think that civic status and wealth are static (have you noticed how the City of Pittsburgh has reversed its decline)? Yes, we are chasing these, as you imply, "lesser" communities, you snob! Wake up or you will find we have been unhorsed by the unwashed because of our own arrogance and lack of creativity.
6:43 anyone that doesn't recognize the possibilities of changes in wealth and civic status, for small hamlets, to cities or even countries either hasn't studied history or is a fool.
Creativity certainly can change a community, the problem is deciding what are the creative options.
I'm left to wonder if any of the planners have given much thought to the impact 150+ apartments at the Castle Shannon T stop and another 52 at the Mt. Lebanon T will do to traffic along the Rt88-Mt. Lebanon-Castle Shannon-Scott-Shady routes.
Traffic at times backs up already, another 200 residences could create problems and there isn't a lot of space to add lanes on these roads.
Its foolhearty to think the residents of these TODs well use the T exclusively for transportation.
1:02AM....and, so what is your point? that our problem is not being "built out" but rather you object to finding ways to promote development? Sounds like an an anti-growth bias...no wonder Dormont, Castle Shannon and Bethel Park are pulling ahead in the development arena.....if you want to increase the tax base, you have to increase development and residency...face it, we are part of a growing urban core, you are not in removed suburbs anymore...
maybe worrying about how to protect your outdated fears of urbanization is what is keeping you trolling the blogs after 1 0'clock in the morning?
6:43/12:36... Oh yeah "Pittsburgh has reversed its decline" -- Happay Days Are Here Again. A chicken in every pot.
http://www.post-gazette.com/news/education/2014/03/02/More-Pennsylania-students-qualifying-for-free-lunches/stories/201403020112
"Though not as hefty, even the more affluent districts had noticeable increases, [in students qualifying for free lunches] among them Fox Chapel Area, 6.8 percentage points; Hampton, 5 percentage points; Bethel Park, 6 percentage points; Mt. Lebanon, 4.4 percentage points; and Quaker Valley, 5.5 percentage points."
Then there is this-—
"Last Friday, President Obama met with mayors and mayors-elect from 16 of the country's major urban centers — including mayor-elect Bill Peduto from Pittsburgh — and endorsed a higher minimum wage as a policy that “could have a tremendous boost in a lot of cities.” Many of those attending were already convinced. The mayors-elect of Seattle and New York City, for instance, both endorsed dramatically higher minimum wages during their campaigns.
But this moment of agreement on a feel-good policy that's supposed to help the poor couldn't be further detached from one hard empirical reality: Urban unemployment rates for young adults remain sky-high, and dramatically raising the minimum wage will only put opportunities further out of reach.
Nationally, the unemployment rate for all teens aged 16 to 19 has been above 20 percent for over five years, and it's currently 21 percent. But in the Pittsburgh metropolitan area, the numbers are dramatically worse: Over the past year, the unemployment rate has averaged 24 percent, as Pittsburgh teens find the first rung on the career ladder harder and harder to reach."
Yep you're right 6:43/12:36... Happy Days Are Here Again!
Keep drinking that Kool-Aid. Please tell me oh enlightened and sleeping peaceably one again, why is the Zamagias property sitting vacant?
Tell me 12:36 why is Butler County the 7th fastest growing region in Pennsylvania? Why are suburban areas like Downingtown, Bucks County, South Fayette flourishing?
I agree that we need to be creative to keep Mt. Lebanon from becoming another high density, low income urban area.
Personally I believe, attracting businesses and retailers is a good idea. The cheaper alternative for the Lebo T stop doesn't do that nor does it make use of the "air rights" investment.
So, I believe we must make decisions that separate Lebo from the crowd. Build things and amenities for ALL age groups that make it special, make it stand out.
Our elders didn't follow.
12:36.
How does building 42 apartments and 11 condos (are those the right numbers) at the MTL T stop improve parking on Washington Road?
How does it increase the retail space?
Plus, if we give away tax income (TIF), you're telling me the future prosperity of Lebo hinges on adding 53 up to probably something less than 106 new residents. (Figuring the spaces planned attract singles of two people families)
Really, thats the plan?!
12:36 how can we be built out, if you have one undeveloped and highly visible property on Washington Road and several on Castle Shannon Blvd.
Not to mention a number of lots zoned for housing scattered throughout the community.
I don't know do you fall asleep as you ride by these spaces or do you just prefer to live life with eyes closed?
12:36, you'll be happy to read, no doubt, that I got a solid night's rest in preparation for your rebuttal to my comments at 1:30, 1:49 and 2:32.
I'm beginnong to think 12:36 you may sleep way too much!
10:28 You are as self-important as you are clueless...this is not about your insistence that only your opinion can be correct, this is about how communities work and prosper, or fail and decline...you seem to believe that we are divinely-installed into a superior social status, a point not worth arguing....why don't you build a moat and a wall, and charge a toll for passing through on 19 (like the old German river barons) ... a troglodite you may be ...but we need leadership to continue to prosper....right now we have only a silly game of power-based keep away...only an open and honest civic culture (which would require substantial change here) can save us now
7:04, spin the conversation any way you wish, but you said Lebo was built out and its obvious to anyone with eyes in their head there are properties open to development.
You avoid discussing the big one at the corner of Bower Hill and Washington.
And no I don't think I'm self-important and I'm not as upset with yoiu as you are with me, because I don't agree with you. So whom is self-aggrandizing?
No I don't wan a moat around Washington, I'm suggesting we do things and search for options that will atteact people and jobs.
I don't think 50 some small residences on Shady will bring prosperty especially since it subtracts parking spaces from the ones Washington Road businesses say they need.
Plus, if the Denis ever takes off and the hotel flourishes jumping into the low density solution proposed may block us from adding the parking and retail spaces we may need soon.
So go after me personally with your innuendo and snarky comments, sticks and stones may break my bones but names with never hurt me. Nor will they cover up important questions or facts.
Good day 7:04.
That's the way to influence people and make friends 7:04.
Call 'em a troglodite... works every time and really persuades people that your views are the correct ones.
Yep, didn't think you wanted to debate with real facts 7:04.
Name-calling and innuendo is more your MO, as we've seen time and time again here in the bubble.
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