Since this is my blog, I will point out what I believe are his most significant findings. Mt. Lebanon can biologically support many more deer. Socially, it is up to the community what it will support. I liked how Tom Kelley made the point of saying "dead deer" reports vs. Kristen's "deer incident" report, which included sightings of deer in yards.
To reduce the deer population, it would be in two phases:
- Phase 1 Reduce the population through culling and sterilization
- Phase 2 Reduce the population through culling and sterilization
Their cost for sterilization would be $1000 per deer. Cost for culling would be between $200 to $400 plus a $75 processing fee per deer. Sterilization would be more cost effective in the long run since unsterilized deer could produce 2-3 fawns per year.
Kristen reported that Tony felt that there were many more deer than what the aerial survey showed. I am not sure how that is.
Matt Kluck said that the report shows in black and white that Mt. Lebanon could support many more deer.
Kelly Fraasch asked when the commission could have a conference call with Maryland. http://www.deerfriendly.com/deer-population-control Maryland has had a successful nonlethal program using surgical sterilization.
Dave Brumfield prefers sterilization because it is safer. I would think Kristen would too, since she felt that dogs on leashes in Williamsburg was unsafe.
I have uploaded the podcast from last night's discussion session. It is available here. The podcast begins with deer.
Update September 24, 2013 11:42 PM Please click on the link I have provided in the blog post. Scroll down a bit and you will see Kelly's four page document on "Deer in Mt. Lebanon." It is linked to my Google Docs.
Mt. Lebanon hiring firm to count deer February 7, 2013 Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh Post Gazette
... [Commisioner] Mrs. Fraasch has composed and posted online a four-page document, "Deer in Mt. Lebanon [PDF]," ... she expresses her opposition to hunting by rifle or bow, instead favoring sterilization by removal of does' ovaries as a viable option. She cites a significant cost savings over the long term and mitigation of some hazards associated with culling...
Update September 24, 2013 1:33 PM Here is a copy of the White Tailed Deer Population Control Options presented by Tom Kelley at last night's meeting.
Update September 26, 2013 9:15 AM Speaking of Bibles (see 10:43 PM), there is this.
66 comments:
I updated this post a second time to include the presentation from White Buffalo.
Also, I hope that the commissioners realize that there are no grants for deer culling; however, there are grants available for sterilization.
Elaine
"Their cost for sterilization would be $1000 per deer. Cost for culling would be between $200 to $400 plus a $75 processing fee per deer. Sterilization would be more cost effective in the long run since unsterilized deer could produce 2-3 fawns per year."
I know all figures presented on this blog are 100% reliable, but wouldn't culled deer produce 0-0 fawns per year?
If we relocate all the deer to the golf course, perhaps we might never need to purchase that new mower....
2:56 apparently since we culled in 2007 and deer are a problem in 2013 one can be pretty much assume culling doesn't gurantee 0 fawn.
Though I never learned TERC math, so my old math skills probably don't work in the 21st century.
@2:56
I'm not pro or con, but I do know that you also can't sterilize fawns....who will be producing more fawns the following year.
So 3:45, you can't sterilize fawns and they won't be gunning down fawns, so either way both solutions don't really achieve a whole lot.
Let's turf the golf course. We won't have to mow the lawn and the deer won't rome there either.
2:56 and 3:45, I'm guessing they figure culling the fawns vs. sterilizing the does, but who knows how they figure it.
I don't think the deer speak Italian or do in Rome as the Romans do.
Sorry, I couldn't resist since I get criticize for my keyboarding mistakes.
If you would read the presentation, go to page six for the explanation, 2:56, 3:45, and 4:28 PM.
Elaine
I can't believe we have people on our Commission who want to throw money at this. Newsflash: you can cull, sterilize and you can ask the deer politely to leave but they come back. Can we please fix the damn sidewalks and roads first?
JE we have people on the commission and the SB that believe the answer to everything is to just throw money at it.
Hey Jimbo, add storm and sanitary sewer flooding to the list as well. These all have more to do with the oath of office pledge elected public officials take and pay no attention to, i.e. "to "protect the health, safety and welfare of the citizens", than deer !
I want to thank Steve Feller for granting my request within TWO hours without coming back with a File a RTK. Steve also added that a copy of the presentation will be on the MTL website. How refreshing! Thanks, Steve.
MTLSD is now demanding RTKs from residents who,for years, received information via verbal request.
Elaine
No, it is more important to protect peoples' begonias and tulips and erecting climbing walls than it is to protect someone's basement from flooding.
Keep in mind that the report said that biologically, Lebo can support many more deer. It becomes a social tolerance issue. As we saw with Williamsburg Park, people have different tolerance levels. Do we want to spend all that money for many years based on what the community will support? Kristen has little tolerance for deer. Others have a higher tolerance level for deer. All this is based on an arbitrary number. For the record, I have zero tolerance for killing next to my house.
Elaine
HOW DO THEY GET DEER TO CROSS THE ROAD ONLY AT THOSE YELLOW ROAD SIGNS?
I see deer all the time. Kind of goes hand-in-hand with living in our state. People who have some twisted ideal of suburban dwelling with no interference or inconvenience from nature are not all there. And I understand the "social tolerance" explanation. But the commissioners arent there to act on what they, as individuals, prefer. They are in those seats--voluntarily--to make decisions in the best interest of the community while acting as responsible stewards of the public funds.
Deer culling is not a priority. Turf is not a priority. A dog park is not a priority. Infrastructure is a priority. Public safety is a priority. I would urge residents to get more involved. Lack of participation is the equivalent of granting someone approval to act however they see fit. Yes, it's tedious and time consuming. And yes, as in the case of the school board, sometimes incompetence and arrogance lord over public input and integrity. But you cannot walk away. I admit I'm not as involved as I would like to be. It has solely to do with available time during the week. I know many of you are in the same situation. But even if you show up once every three months, you're still part of the process.
Common Core Education, 6:17.
Once we get them to attend those Safe Sex health classes in elementary school we won't need culling or sterization.
Doesn't anyone shop around in Mt. Lebanon? Why not get more than one quote of cost? are culling and sterilization the only options?
Is there not someone capable in the employ of our Lebo unable to write a grant for sterilization? Why must it always be the females!
I suspect some areas of Mt. Lebanon have more deer than others. I also think it less tolerated in some wards.
I dislike culling the deer. I think there is a better way to display our humanity.
I think everybody should travel a little bit and see the world. We are worried about deer, here, in Mt Lebanon. Kids are escorted to school in Chicago to avoid being shot and we are worried about deer. Seriously?
In terms of risk, kids hide from moose charging them on their walk to the school bus in Utah and they aren't culling the moose. Moose are aggressive and territorial. Kids in Utah learn to hide behind cars and put stop signs between themselves and the moose to outwit them. I'm not saying I want moose in Mt Lebanon, but this fear of deer is over the top. And it's probably only going to get worse with the next generation if we don't make our streets safe enough for outdoor play. If you spend time outdoors, you come to appreciate wildlife rather than seek to destroy it.
In Canada, and perhaps other places, an effort is being made to put sensors on high speed roads near known animal crossings that warn motorists when wildlife are next to or crossing the road. So far their results are promising.
I see that the White Buffalo report has been added to the Municipal website. http://mtlebanon.org/index.aspx?nid=2114
I wish they would put up the true deer incident report that I got my hands on, instead of this one which shows ALL incidents, from deer sightings to car accidents.
http://mtlebanon.org/DocumentCenter/View/9587
This is the actual incident report on pages 8-14.
Elaine
Who are we to decide which animals live and die?
And what message does this send to our kids?
How can anyone see a mother deer with her babies and not get tears in their eyes?
I had 9 deer grinding in my back yard this morning. What's next, twerking?
7:17 AM, to murder those deer in your back yard would cost Mt. Lebanon $4275. Do you think it is more important to spend that money on your nine grinding deer or to help people who lost thousands of dollars in damages from flooding? Don't bother answering. I know what you will say.
Elaine
Sorry, but I don't want my tax $$ going to "helping people" with their flood damages. That is what their insurance is for.
Dear 10:32, Your insurance does not cover this type of flooding unless you have purchased supplemental insurance.
10:32 AM, you really didn't need to respond. Do you know that the engineer from Gateway reported at the last meeting that it will cost approximately $600,000 to correct the problems on Shadowlawn? His report included other streets such as Sleepy Hollow and Castle Shannon Blvd.
Somehow, grinding deer shouldn't be a higher priority than correcting infrastructure issues.
You do have some options though. You could ask the deer to get a room. See if they would be interested in touring with Miley Cyrus. You could also stop watching them. How about this? Cough up the $4,275. See? You have many options.
Insurance doesn't cover everything that is wrong with Mt. Lebanon's infrastructure.
Elaine
Dear 10:48 I know about supplemental insurance. If a homeowner lost their furnance b/c they were neglected to purchase insurance how is that my problem?
As for deer "grinding", the correct terminology is rutting, and I doubt that the original poster saw 9 deer rutting in his yard. I believe that he thought that he was funny, twerking and Miley Cyrus and all. Kind of stupid if you ask me.
I believe that a cull would be appropriate, donate the meat to a food bank. I guess that all of you who are against a call are vegetarians?
11:28 AM, I pay Giant Eagle for all my slaughtered meat. It has nothing to do with being a vegetarian.
I am looking at it two ways. One, dollars and cents. There is grant money for sterilization. Two, if dogs are unsafe on leashes in active parks, why isn't shooting guns to kill animals bigger than me?
Elaine
It's cull, not call. And I'm hardly a vegetarian. This is all about fiscal prudence, little of which is evident given the proposals floating around including the deer cull.
Dogs are not unsafe on leashes in parks.
A cull can be done safely.
11:28 why is your problem with deer my problem?
I like watching them and find a few nibbled plants worth the price of admission.
So if you lost some landscaping or got a dent in your care, why is my lack of compassion for your plants aby different yours for a neighbor that lost their furnance because of a neglected or insufficient stormwater system.
11:58 AM, but the commission majority disagrees with you on dog safety.
I don't think the commission should get into the meat processing business. Their primary concerns should be infrastucture and public safety.
Following your logic, isn't that why we have car insurance? Should it be my problem if you don't have car insurance?
Elaine
Houses in Mt Lebanon were built in flood plains. The people that moved into those houses were not informed of those risks. They learned the risks AFTER their houses were damaged. USC has flood plain maps on their website so that people don't end up being tortured like the residents in Mt Lebanon who are repeatedly suffering dramatic damages every time it rains hard here. The muni knows about the flood plains.
12:57 Your comment is not entirely accurate.
Mortgage lenders are required to tell applicants if their property is in a flood zone, and they are required to have flood insurance.
This information IS on the muni website
http://mtlebanon.org/index.aspx?NID=2159
12:57 that is not the entire problem.
I was told that part of the problem at Castle Shsnnon and Shady is that PAT was allowed to connect larger storm water pipes into smaller lines and that is what is causing heavy rains to back up into peoples basements. Bad design gets overwhelmed with too much runoff.
12:57 if you take out a mortgage, doesn't the lending company insist on an evaluation to see if the home is in a flood plain? If so isn't the buyer required to carry flood insurance?
I am a vegetarian and I am entirely in favor of the cull. We've created an imbalance in our ecosystem by not allowing animals that would naturally keep the deer population in check. Those of you who "pay Giant Eagle for all [your] slaughtered meat" and simultaneously characterize those who are in favor of a cull as monsters are the worst kind of hypocrites. So, you'd have no issue with rats in your basement or raccoon in your attic?
I have a group of ten deer that consistently sleep in my front yard, that approach my children, that defecate EVERYWHERE, and that have charged one of my pets. If this was any other type of nuisance, you'd all be demanding action. But instead you meat-eating plaster saints conveniently plead that we "consider the beautiful animals." Do you make the same pleas when you BBQ? Or when you set out ant traps? You're all chicken hawks. You'll happily consume the anonymous and processed animal to which you have no connection; but as soon as you see the face of the animal that might be killed, you become lily-livered. It's truly pathetic.
2:11 PM, congratulations for being the first to start the name calling. We're not talking vegetarians or rats or raccoons. We're talking dollars and cents. We're talking about nonlethal methods of deer management that can be funded through grants. We're talking priorities.
Here's an FYI. A year ago, a doe had Timmy, the dog cornered at the bottom of my driveway. He suffered some small scrapes but learned a valuable lesson. He looks around before he goes out on the deck. If deer are approaching, he comes in. He has learned to coexist. Maybe we can all learn something from Timmy, the dog.
Elaine
2:11 has some anger management issues, me thinks.
2:11, you say you are a vegan and after reading your comment may I recommend getting checked for a protein deficiency.
http://vegetarian.lovetoknow.com/Protein_Deficiency_Symptoms
Protein Deficiency Symptoms
"Other Symptoms
Not all of the symptoms of protein deficiency are physical. Some are emotional or mental, and include the following:
Crankiness, moodiness
Problems with conflict resolution
Severe depression
Anxiety
Lack of energy, no desire to do things"
"Ten deer that consistently sleep in my front yard.."
I think we need to get our money back from the ariel survey company, they missed that congregation.
3:11, where did I say I was vegan?
4:05, I'm not familiar with the "ariel" survey. If the township spent money to survey the ocean for mermaids, I too would be outraged. However, if you're referring to the "aerial" survey, they logged a group of ten right by me: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9r_1biKte_bdndwMDE5a2Itejg/edit
I wonder why the commission hasn't talked about doing a second aerial survey. They were going to follow up with a second survey to track all the births and calculate the growth rate. Kristen said that the count is off because many more deer were born. The cost of the aerial survey was considerably less than budgeted, so the plan was to repeat the process this February. This was how we were going to get a true picture. Has the commission forgotten?
Elaine
Interesting...They must not travel as much as Ms. Linfante insisted when defending the extended borders on the aerial survey 5:23.
5:32 PM, that point was mentioned during the Discussion Session. Evidently, they should not have extended the boundary lines by two miles in all directions. The deer travel or roam in more limited areas.
Elaine
Got me 5:23, when you said you were a vegetarian and called the Giant Eagle meat shoppers "lily-livered" when they see the face of the animal to be killed, I assumed you were a strict vegan.
See the online definitions below, and I will be smacking my little auto-correction software code for making a mistake.
I guess though, you slaughter and tan the hides for your shoes, belts and leather upholstery since apparently you have that killer instinct to provide for yourself.
A question for you. Did you ever wonder why these ten deer select your yard to crap and sleep in? Why they seem to have it in for your kids?
Perhaps they're trying to right the balance of nature by trying to get you out of their neighborhood. Perhaps they understand you'll never live in harmony with nature and since they don't pack guns they can't conduct a cull.
Veg·an
Pronunciation: \ˈvē-gən also ˈvā-also ˈve-jən or -ˌjan\
Function: noun
Etymology: by contraction fromvegetarian
Date: 1944
: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy products ;also : one who abstains from using animal products (as leather)
veg·e·tar·i·an
ˌvejiˈte(ə)rēən/
noun
1.
a person who does not eat meat, and sometimes other animal products, esp. for moral, religious, or health reasons.
My house flooded, too and its pretty annoying. I'm going to call some of you very misinformed. My house is not in a flood plain. This year's flooding was not caused by waste sewer water backing up into my house, but storm water overflow, water that ran down the street into my driveway (that is at a 90 degree angle). Flooding has also occurred from hill run off between the houses. In previous years it was both kinds of flooding.
I even have a sump pump with interior French drain.
There's many kinds of insurance and you can't just run out and buy flood insurance. My house does not qualify, I guess since my property is not on a floodplain.
You can easily buy sewer backup insurance, like when liquid gurgles out of your tub or through basement drains. There is no type of insurance to buy if your municipality's sewer system is insufficient.
I guess I should bill the municipality for the damage.
As far as the person bothered by the 10 deer in your yard: first, I believe you. I think your property needs an individualized plan. Maybe you could try writing a grant for your problem. I mean that sincerely. I don't think culling will help you much. I can loan you some buckets if you ever get flooded!
2:11...You're a special kind of stupid. And if you want to use words like "hypocrite" in the same paragraph as "lill-livered", try signing your name.
And upset the balance of the eco-system? Well, hell, instead of shooting deer, maybe we should all coalesce around your brilliance and just start releasing wolves.
Not sure what a plaster saint is. But I assure you, I have killed animals. I have looked into their eyes. And that's why I hold a special reverence for nature, especially when I pull a juicy steak off the grill. Animals are truly a gift to us all. That said, my issue is how our township chooses to spend money, some of which is confiscated from my earned income. Call me crazy but allowing people to run around shooting deer, animals that are abundant in our region and will return, truly is irresponsible.
What needs culling in this town are the people!
The deer were here first.
Aren't some of these houses in flood plains? I don't think I'd be bothered by 10 deer in my yard. How confrontational are they really? Have you tried a motion sprinkler? Some of us are more comfortable with wildlife than others. So when there's a divided community, perhaps the most conservative approach is indicated.
Here's a suggestion for 2:11. You hate deer, you say ten sleep and crap on your front lawn regularly so set up a net, hide in your car and when 10 are gathered on your lawn jump out and scare them into the net.
Then you can Look 'em in the eye and club them (it worked for our ancient ancestors) to death. Then donate the meat, which I'm sure you'll butcher yourself to the food bank.
No shots fired, you'll be able to declare yourself the brave hunter and lourd it over everyone how you've got that killer instinct!
2:11 PM, the food bank will only take deer meat that was processed by Kip's Deer Processing in Carnegie. http://kipsdeerprocessing.net/map.html
I hope you don't do what the previous comment suggests.
Elaine
I hope they don't either Elaine, because I don't mind the deer.
But, 2:11 is so gung ho to kill them and so high and mighty that us meat-eaters are lily-livered cowards I just thought they might want to take on the culling.
No gun shots, no arrows, I'm pretty sure you can put up a net for the night and not break any ordinances.
8:18: bravo! "So when there's a divided community perhaps the most conservative approach is indicated." I believe I've been recorded saying that same sentiment!
And no, not all houses flooded are in flood plains. Unless you've been flooded I think it's difficult to imagine. I have had 9 deer in my yard and have pictures. I don't think the deer are the same as having a fox in the henhouse. I think the biggest worry with deer in one's yard should be the spread of Lyme containing ticks to our pets and ourselves. But then youve got those pesky squirrels, rats and racoons. oh, and ferral cats. And yes, Lyme is here in Mt. Lebo.
The biggest problem here is the intolerance of how others feel. Animals should not be killed beside one's home that doesnt wish it. I can attest that it is nightmarish waking up to the sound of a culler's silencer not working properly. I'm not Elaine, either.
I'm curious if the deer hostel yard's owner has tried anything to solve the Miley Cirrus mocking problem? Do you live next to an abandoned property? Have you tried anything? Human hair, deer repellant from Rolliers. Motion detector sprayers?
Just because I do not like culling deer does not mean I am insensitive to your deer problem, like some are insensitive to my flooding problem that affects my livelihood.
I like JDK's post that showing up at a meeting every now and then helps. So many people are overwhelmed and the mere thought of regular participation shuts some down.
The lack of compassion, coupled with the selfishness of some of the people in this community, is truly frightening and disheartening.
I now understand why people are reluctant to move here.
People need to get their Bibles out and start at the beginning.
10:08 PM, I think that was JEC III who mentioned that. I am going to paraphrase what Municipal Planner Keith McGill summed up at the last commission meeting.
If you want to increase attendance at a commission meeting, talk about turf, deer, or dogs.
Ain't that the truth! Trouble is, that seems to be all that is discussed anymore, thanks to Kristen and Dave.
Elaine
As with any non-human pest, there are solutions. Why not trap the deer that come in your yard and turn them over to the wildlife commission for relocation to under populated area? It would be easy to do since they act like pets. As for the deer and vehicle situation, that is a statewide problem with no viable solution. As an aside, citizens could/should use some bear techniques: don't feed them (plant artificial flowers?), wear bells on your clothing when going outside and always carry a walking stick when hiking or running. A good dose of pepper spray will also disperse a herd. A watch dog could also prove beneficial. With a concentrated effort by many homeowners, the deer can be encouraged to relocate to the neighboring communities. Many of them have larger yards and more grazing opportunities due to the absence of side walks.
Trapping them is not pretty. They flail around until they die.
Elaine
A suggestion, though admittedly it will take time.
First some history.
"Leading up to the beginning of the 20thcentury, Pennsylvania’s deer herds were crippled by the persistence of market hunting, the practice by which deer are harvested for the sale of meat. During this period, deer hunting was a completely unregulated entity. There were no established seasons or bag limits; hunters simply shot whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted. The meat was then sold on the market and used to fuel the industrialization of cities like New York and Philadelphia. By 1900, market hunting had decimated the Pa. deer herd. Accepted estimates place the population at the turn of the century at around 5,000 deer. To put this figure in perspective, in any given year motorists will hit approximately 100,000 deer on Pennsylvania roads. The near extinction of deer from the Commonwealth lead to the establishment of the Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC) and subsequent restocking efforts."
http://www.statecollege.com/mobile/news/local-news/the-history-of-deer-management-in-pennsylvania,587735/
So here's the suggestion- open up market hunting or multiple tags for hunters. With the thinning of the PA herds in forest areas won't urban deer eventually migrate to those less populated areas?
I imagine they don't exacty relish live with us, though they do seem to love one of us, their yard and their children.
Any way, with all the new revenue from market hunting and tag fees, communities would get funds to conduct sterilization programs for deer that chose not to migrate to the forest.
Sort of like the gambling revenue helps school districts.
Just a thought, maybe our state reps could offer up a bill in Harrisburg.
An added benefit, leather clothing an apparel is a hot trend this year. A new industry could spring up for buckskin and doe skin products.
Instead of Spanish leather - PA leather could become fashionable.
Elaine: the justification for the 2006-2007 deer culls was an overabundance of deer in proportion to available food supply. In essence, the deer were allegedly on the verge of starvation. The latest report contradicts those findings. Mt. Lebanon offers a buffet of sorts. Additionally, the deNichola study dismisses the aerial survey. So much controversy with so few facts.
3:04 PM, thank you for making those observations. This is wearing me out. I have tried to bring this up through the years. If only the commissioners would take the time to consider your observations. It has been proven over and over that decisions made in Mt. Lebanon are never made rationally. As my dad says, common sense is not so common.
Elaine
Wait! Why not just include the deer in oBooboCare... Birth Control is then FREE! Problem solved. FYI Deer are flight animals and ANY surgical procedure will end up killing many. That's why Commissioners voted against trapping deer. The stress from that had a high kill ratio. Wonder if our super-sized coyote friends have deer on their menu? Know they love dogs and cats!
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