The Commissioners voted tonight on Dave Brumfield's Pilot Program to allow leashed dogs in Williamsburg Park.
The vote was 2 - 2. Dave Brumfield and Kelly Fraasch voted for it. Kristen Linfante and John Bendel voted against it. Matt Kluck was not present. Motion failed.
50 comments:
There were changes made to Dave's pilot program. Dave removed fees and permits from the plan. No ward restrictions and no cap on the number of dogs. The hours would have been early morning or after dark. If a dog would bite someone, the Municipality would not be liable.
This motion had been omitted from the original commission meeting agenda. It was added on right before the meeting. Steve Feller had said that it was an oversight on his part.
Even though the motion failed, i wanted to let everyone know of the changes.
Elaine
Ihow do you overlook an aganda item as contntious as this one?
10:09 AM, how does one not follow the swimming pool project as closely as one should? But that is a whole other topic.
Elaine
I don't believe the so-called "Dave's pilot program" that he allegedly worked on for 9 months was his plan at all. It was more likely a plan given him by a another attorney from his ward who is also a dog loving turf supporter. Dave only modified it when too many questions and criticisms surfaced within the last couple of weeks.
Turf and dogs are Brumfields major focus. He's not an original thinker and hates dealing with facts that conflict with his bias.
My opinion is that your last sentence is 100% on target, 10:40.
10:40 AM, during Citzens Comments, I asked about the revisions. At that point, Kelly asked Dave if the plan was shared with the constituents and Dave said he only told one person. My guess it was with the person you mentioned.
Elaine
This is Brumfield's MO, isn't it?
Wonder if this is why turf keeps coming around.
Hi Elaine, it was a pleasure meeting you last night, and I've enjoyed the spirited conversation on the blog. In my mind, we asked for a vote, and we got one. Hoping the neighborhood can move on.
Dina, personally I thought the 'test' might have been a good idea even though I wasn't in favor of dogs in the park.
Like you I hope the neighborhood can move on. Perhaps there is a lesson here on turf as well.
Thanks to Elaine's blog we did have a spirited 'conversation', apprently it had some impact with the commissioners.
Too bad that there are certain parties that are always trying to shut down or at least minimized the conversation here.
Hi Dina,
I enjoyed talking with you too. You did a great job speaking last night. In fact, I was impressed with everyone who spoke about this topic. Everyone was civil. Maybe seeing two police officers present kept everyone calm.
Also, I have to say that Commissioner Linfante lead the meeting - both meetings in a professional manner. Well done.
Elaine
Elaine, Maybe a new Horizon with you and Commiss. Linfante? Maybe even lunch. I thought she lead very well also. I'm glad this is over.
Bruce
Ah, could there be a rebirth of civility in the bubble.
Hope so!
I don't know about THAT, Bruce. Maybe if Kristen buys.
;) I did say that it was the first time we were on the same side of an issue. Baby steps, Bruce. Baby steps.
I am glad it is over too!
Elaine
Bruce and Dina, you guys have to start showing up at school board meeings.
It's where most of your property tax dollars are spent.
I still have no idea why there is such a controversy over dogs being in a park...outside...on grass...where dogs usually go...
Some people in this community really don't get it. And by it I mean life.
9:30 You're the one that has no idea... you said it yourself.
Its really not that difficult, some people don't want to play or picnic where the dogs usually go.
"watch out where the Huskies go, and don't you eat that yellow snow." Frank Zappa
Elaine:
You asked Commissioner Brumfeld about permits. Aside from asking to take a nap, Commsissioner Brumfeld said no. The motion on the table ...specifically contained the word permit. I neglected to bring my agenda copy home.
11:01 PM, you caught that, huh? The agenda online has not been updated with Dave's motion. For a plan to be in the works for nine months, you would think he would have been more prepared to answer questions.
I hope the revised agenda is uploaded to the municipal website. I have to dig mine out of the recycling.
Elaine
9:30 u don't get it. It's not just about dogs in the parks. Others such as young toddlers use the park. People let their dogs leave piles around. U must not have kids. Just last night there was a soccer practice in the park. Kids rolling in the grass, wrestling each other with the ball.
Do you buy heart worm and flea and tick treatment for your dog? Do u vaccinate your dog? I bet u do. I bet u do this for their protection..
There aren't any dog books where the owner is seen saying I love u to the moon and back.
Take your dog to bird Park...if u really want to know, research this issue. We have a life, its just not like yours.
"I love u to the moon and back"? What the hell are you talking about? Oh wait, I see. Your sweet little angel should never be exposed to the big bad dogs and their big bad selfish owners, huh. Widdle sweetie should be awowed to pway wherever the want cuz mommy said so. Awe, thats sweet. And really sick.
Youre right, you dont have a life like I do. I live in reality and you seem to reside in the land of gumdrops and unicorns. It's a park. Get it? A park. You dont own it by virtue of having a kid.
And thanks for the advice but as a dog owner AND a parent Ive spent a lot of time in Bird Park. Amazingly, with dogs and kids sharing the trails everyone gets along. The dog owners are more diligent in picking up after their pets than the parents whose precious little angels leave garbage everywhere. Youre the one who needs to do some "research".
7:16 post shows us why we don't have dogs in the parks. Too much to clean up, especially 7:16's attitude.
I've heard that dogs bite, is that true? Maybe that's one of the reason's they aren't allowed in the Parks made for kidplay? Unless there is a game being played, i don't generally see alot of kids in Bird. I see them all the time in Williamsburg. Should we also let them on the School grounds? You should go to the School Board with that one, i'd be curious what they'd have to say.
I just read about the decision in this week's PG.south edition..My question is WHY is Ms LinFante SOO anti animal???? first she wants to kill all the deer and now she wants to exclude dogs..... isnt she a liberal love everything Democrat?? who is feeding her these antianimal ideas???? i know who im voting against in the next election..
I scanned the agenda from Tuesday's meeting. Read it here.
Elaine
9:31, you do love to paint with a broad brush, don't you?
I'm not a big fan of Linfante's and seldom find myself on the same side of the fence on issues here.
Anti-animal is a bit of an assumption isn't it? Perhaps she's not anti-animal but rather a proponent of the current park ordinances. Is every commissioner that has served since the parks were created, anti- animal too?
Same thing occurred on the high school project. Unfortunately, i think Ms. Linfante did some of it-- if you didn't want to spend $113 million on the high school renovation, or $1,2 million on turf, you're anti-kid.
850: can you please show me documentation that states explicity parks (notice the lower case "p") have been constructed for "kidplay" ( which isnt a word)? While you're tackling that feat, maybe you can also dig up some data on how many dog-to-human incidents have been reported in any park (lowercase p again) in Mt. Lebanon in the last year, two years, five years and 10 years.
If you havent seen kids at Bird Park (uppercase because it's a proper noun) perhaps you should go between the hours of 9 am and 6 pm. Be warned, you'll also see dogs and squirrels and maybe even birds (who tend to defecate without regard to human boundaries).
Dear English teacher, sorry i have not followed the formal nature requiRed of tHis here bloggy thinGy...
I Can point yOu to the ORDinance that says NO DOGS, and i reAlly do douBt the sWings and sliDes were put there for the doggies enjoyment.
I hearDed that thEre weRe n iNcicent in TwiN HiLls pArk not long agO. I KNOw dhere was aN incIdent on BeveRly Rd laSt April.
When i see Dem at BirddY ParK, thEy R oFten OFFlEash on The SoCCer FiEld. Go Figher.
7:16 and 1:47 are u the same person?
Please don't tell me to get a life. I can assure u my head is not in the clouds. There is no reason to get nasty over this. I don't believe in forcing my views and opinions on anyone.
A lot of people did not want dogs in the park, not just a few. How would u feel if dogs were eliminated from Bird Park? What would u do?
Jake
1:47 all your smart comments will not change the fact that dogs are prohibited in Mt. Lebanon Parks and School grounds for years and years.
Of course these restrictions were put in place just to piss you off. No other reason than nobody wants your smarmy assed attitude and your little dog too.
Dina, was mature enough to move on, why don't you grow up? You lost your bid for dogs in Williamsburg, end of story. Now you can be a big boy or girl and fformulate another plan and submit it to your ward commissioner or you can continue to piss off your neighbors.
Your choice.
A new ordinance we can push.
“All parks are closed at dark except Williamsburg, and only if you have a dog, and are over the age of 30, all walkers must carry proper ID. No more than 2 adults and or 4 dogs are allowed at any one time. Only 1 adult and or 2 dogs from Dormont are allowed at one time. No dogs from Castle Shannan are permitted. If the maximum number of walkers are present, you must wait at the sign for them to finish their walk before you may begin yours. All walkers at night are required to bring a flashlight in order to properly clean up after their leashed dog. Barking dogs are not permitted.”
It's all in the simplicity, but of course there's that confounded enforcement issue. Maybe we build a little hut and let someone live there for free, provided they keep things in line.
Ms. LinFante.. is our new and maybe the first Democratic in our Ward.. the Democratic principals are liberal and progressive .. however there is Union Democrat in her Ward who attends most Commission meetings, hates dogs and deer with a passion and he wishes he personally could shoot all the barking dogs in Lebo... im thinkin he has Ms. LinFante's ear...
4:48... Silly!
442: why do you keep injecting the schools into this? What does it have to do with parks?
To the "I want everything my way" crowd: you moved here voluntarily. Are you really telling me you chose to live in this area expecting your child wouldnt have to share space with dogs? That's the kind of petty unrealisitic stance in life that perpetuates the emtpy elitism on display in certain pockets of our community. As written earlier, show me the document that specifies parks were built for the children.
6:35 what is a union democrat?
7:09 I only Keep bringing up schools, because like most of the parks they have "historically" prohibited dogs on their grounds.
Now I guess after rreading your comment for the last 50, 60 or 100 yeaes, your imaginary "i want everything my way crowd" Has forbidden dogs in parks and on school grounds, just because they are an elite, self-serving bunch of snobs.
Oh by the way 7:09 no one has to prove anything to you as to whom or what the parks were created for. Most people can easily comprehend whom the playground equipment, basketball hoops, picnic tables etc. were constructed for.
Since dogs have been forbidden in the parks probably since their creation, its up to you to justify theIr inclusion of dogs.
7:09 show us the documentation that says what the parks were built for?
Since you seem to know that no document exist specifying they were built for kids, you must have access to those that specify the purpose of their construction!
Then after that please show me the documents from the "i want everyting my way" crowd that got dogs prohibited from the parks.
Surely, you have them, don't you 7:09!
Harry Funk ended his PG article with a quote from Dave Brumfield.
"I do believe that this could have been done without any incidents occurring," he said. "I just hope everyone can move on."
Elaine
You should call animal control. Most communities don't allow dogs in parks, so when i moved here i figured it was the same ole same ole. Regarding Schools. They have lot's of green space, they have playgrounds and they have lot's of children. Sound familiar? Why is the playgroud at Howe so different from the playground at Williamsburg?
If people with dogs cleaned up after them, perhaps this debate never would have started. I have dogs and I do clean up after them religiously. If I run out of bags, I am extremely uncomfortable and have a family member run one to me. This doesn't happen very often and I jut bought a bag holding device for my leash.
If bags were more available, though, as they are in many cities and parks that are dog friendly, I think this dog clean up problem would be reduced.
It's not so great that this community is divided over dogs. Census data indicates that in 2012, 37% of US households had at least 1 dog. In Mt Lebanon, that number is probably significantly higher. If people have to *drive* to take their dog to a park, we are only adding to traffic and pollution. Green space should be accessible to dog owners in their own neighborhoods. And by the way, I do love kids.
So now you offer research. Actually did u realize......
Oh never mind! I'm sick of arguing over this crap!
Lets see who will be the bigger person so to speak and just move on!
739 you don't seem very bright. Which parks in Mt Lebanon have "historically prohibited" dogs? Seems I touched a nerve asking for facts instead of hyperbole.
And nobody has to prove to me why parks were constructed? Well, actually, they do if they are asserting the parks were built for a singular purpose and simultaneously pushing for some type of legal restriction for another purpose. It's that crazy antiquated notion we call the "legal system".
By your logic, since parks have playgrounds, and that somehow designates them kid-only, then you wont mind if someone removes all the grass and trees. Hell, let's just have a concrete pad with some monkey bars. Voila--meets your criteria as being constructed just for kids. Brilliant.
I'll go back to an earlier point. You moved her voluntarily. Did you do any research to see roughly how many dogs were in the area? Did you really believe if you moved to a suburb you wouldn't encounter dogs? I'd lob an insult at you but I already feel bad because you're so lost. You don't like animals around your kids, then keep your kids inside or go buy a plot of land somewhere for them. But get over yourself.
11:48 PM, I'm confused. The pilot program was defeated on Tuesday night. Were you aware of that? If you missed it, that is unfortunate.
Elaine
11:48 PM, the monkey bars over a concrete pad would never fly. Read what the Public Playground Safety Handbook published by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission has to say about that. But somehow, I don't think you care. Please stop the insults. If you have concerns with the commission's vote, email them at commission@mtlebanon.org.
Elaine
Grr. Forgot to give you the link. http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/122149/325.pdf
Elaine
Im fully aware of what happened. My issue is, you have people posting false information on this site. Ive asked for correct information and facts and all i get is hostility from people who dont like dogs. If it's just a discussion in a room and people are lying, that's one thing. But when people are injecting fantasy into a conversation that ultimately has legal repercussions, don't you think it's important to get the facts straight?
You tout the site as an open exchange of information. I asked questions, the same questions, several times and had he same two respondents throw out red herrings like " ask the school district". Somehow it's okay for them to display contempt and dishonesty but I'm the one who needs to tone it down? Please.
I also think the situation is sad. It pits neighbor against neighbor when really, everyone could meet in the middle and compromise. It would also be helpful if we had commissioners who wanted to lead instead of appease.
8:53 AM, I really don't have time for this, so this will be my last response to you.
The ordinance that was amended only permits dogs in three passive parks. There are no dogs allowed in active parks. That is how the "historically prohibited" comment originated. All the active parks have "No Dogs Allowed" signs. I didn't get the impression that anyone was against dogs, just to continue to keep the active parks closed to dogs.
The Almanac also covered this story.
http://www.thealmanac.net/article/20130912/NEWS/130919960/0/FRONTPAGE#.UjMkeMu9KSM If you feel you are being treated unfairly here, perhaps you should submit a comment to The Almanac. Just a heads up, you will have to sign your name. It may be time for you to move on, 8:53 AM.
Elaine
If you knew that the whole time maybe you could have shared earlier. If someone disagrees with you, then you tell them to go away?
3:33 PM, not only are you rude, you can't read either.
Everything is negotiable in Lebo
Do a search on this blog for "Twin Hills" or "dog ordinance" and you will see that I have explained it over and over. I can't help it if you don't understand.
I am not telling you to go away because you disagree with me. I am telling you to go away because you are rude and abrasive.
Elaine
Elaine, my suggestion, allow them to post, just don't respond.
Their writings stand on their own.
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