Hi Elaine:
I noticed that you have the centennial logo posted at the top of your Lebo Citizens website. We have copyrighted the municipal logos, primarily because a competing private company was using the municipal symbols and information on their publications to make them look “official.” I have been consistently telling one of these private magazines that they cannot use the copyrighted information, and it would be very helpful to me if you could voluntarily take down the logo on your site. I hope that you understand our situation. Please call if you have any questions. Thanks.
Steve
I voluntarily took down the copyrighted logo and exchanged it for a photo that I had taken. Not a problem. But what about Dancing With The Stars? Aren't they using our logo? Who is going to tell Len Goodman?
35 comments:
Rest assured that Mt. Lebanon's 100th birthday is going to come around just once (we'll be lucky if the place is even here in a few years). I believe all Elaine wanted to do was to say "Happy Birthday" to the town where she has lived since childhood.
We all know the competing publication referred to by Mr. Feller is out of Washington County.
Sorry, Elaine---we know your heart was in the right place!
A saddened Maddie Miller
OMG Elaine, I can't believe how petty this "community" has become! To me you were showing the spirit of a special historic milestone, but the cliques need to maintain control of their fiefdom. You deserve better and Feller's letter is an insult. It's a stupid move on the municipality's part because you have a large following. I hope he moves on before too long! Put the logo back up - you live here too and don't we all "own' the logo? It probably came out of our darned pockets!
Wah, wah, wah, Steve. I am the PIO and I say it belongs to me.
"Steve, go and harass Elaine Gillen or you will be subject to my wrath and I have significant pull around here! Do it now!"
No, I am not going to put it back up. If I was one of those private magazines, I would hesitate to use anything to make them look "official." That would be the kiss of death at the 15234/15228 post office.
Elaine
Anonymous 11:23 makes a good point---the taxpayers paid for that logo!
Did MTLSD pay half or aren't they allowed to use it either? Having a combined logo is the first step to eliminating a PIO. Which one gets to stay - Susan or Cisssy???
Personally, I suspect that Steve F.'s heart is in the right place, but he's no intellectual property lawyer. And even though the following is *not* legal advice, Elaine, I am.
Are the municipality's logos copyrighted, with the copyrights owned by Mt. Lebanon? Absolutely. What's the likelihood that Mt. Lebanon would win a hypothetical copyright lawsuit between Mt. Lebanon and Elaine? My prediction: very low. Yes, the blog reproduced and distributed the logo, but the blog's non-commercial character and the fact that its purpose is to host critical citizen commentary about the community would weigh heavily in her favor under a fair use argument. Even better, you'd likely get a more than a little favorable Internet buzz and even a bit of pro bono support for your cause, what with the local government coming down like a ton of bricks on someone who is a well-known critic. Whatever the First Amendment means, it means that the government has to keep its hands off of its critics.
But Steve's real complaint isn't copyright law at all, although copyright is often a starting point for the uninformed trying to stop something that they don't like. (It's also often a starting point for bullies, but I am truly willing to assume -- per the above -- that this is well-intentioned ignorance, and nothing more.) Steve's note shows that he's really making a point under trademark law. The logo is a symbol -- trademark -- of Mt. Lebanon; use of the logo on the blog leads possibly to reader belief that the blog is sponsored or endorsed by the municipality, which is a kind of (alleged) trademark infringement.
There are some obvious flaws in that logic, from the point of view of trademark law. Again, in the hypothetical case of Mt. Lebanon v. Elaine, I predict that Lebo would be a loser. First, trademark infringement usually requires that the accused infringer have used the mark commercially. The blog's contents travel the intergalactic wires of the Internet, which is "commercial" in a technical sense, but most courts sensibly expect that "commercial" means some greater direct connection with making money using the mark. (Steve's point about use of the logo by a rival magazine is relevant here; the magazine presumably is in competition with the Municipality's magazine in the business of selling ads, so the Municipality's position is far more reasonable.) Second, in context, the appearance of the logo on the blog would lead no reasonable consumer to think that the Municipality of Mt. Lebanon has anything to do with its content. Even a student educated at one of the School District's elementary schools could read the text on the right column of the blog and figure that out.
Someone versed in trademark law might go the further step of arguing that the blog's use of the mark is "diluting" the strength of the Mt. Lebanon trademark. For a number of reasons that I won't detail -- the non-commercial status of the blog, the relative weakness of the mark, the utter absence of evidence that the blog's use of the mark could cause reputational harm to the Municipality, and courts' general hostility to the theory underlying "dilution" claims, that claim would be a certain loser.
Mike Madison
"this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth"
Well Abe, hate to tell you this, but that nation packed up its bags and left Mt. Lebanon some time ago.
Screw 'em. We don't need 'their' logo.
Run a contest Elaine for your own Mt. Lebanon 100th Year logo!
Hey Mike,
Thanks for stopping in to lend your opinion, but you deserted all this a long time ago. So, thanks for the 2 cents worth, but you could have done more to help along the way.
Watch out, Elaine!
You just used the ABC logo.
Anon 12:57 may have just authored the all-time greatest comment in the history of the Lebo blogosphere.
Damn you Mike! How dare you go about your life leaving the rest of us here alone to search for the Holy Grail! You've been sitting on all of the answers, holding the keys to all of the locked doors and - unbeknownst to us - it now turns out that you actually have the power to make everything better. And to think I argued with you over stem fees!
Hope you are well.
Dave Franklin
Thanks, Mike. I published your comment before I called it a night. You gave me a lot to think about. It was nice hearing from you.
Elaine
Watch out, Fake Lebo. Your next.
Mike hit the nail on the head. They are trying to stop something they don't like. When have they done a story on your blog or website. They featured Real Lebo, which has since been removed most likely because it showed Mrs. Linfante's true personality and wicked tongue. Your website is unique. I am not aware of any others like it in Pittsburgh. You offer a valuable service to the community. Keep up the good work.
I think the municipality is in the situation of trying to prevent an entity (the private magazine) using its trademarked logo and, therefore, needs to police all unauthorized use of the logo. Anyone with two or more children will recognize the problem. If you tell one child they cannot do something, the aggrieved child will have a fit if you let the same issue slide with another child.
The magazine, if the issue was to go to court, could say that Lebo is unfairly preventing them the use of the logo since Lebo is turning a blind other non-Lebo entities use the logo.
Mr. Feller's letter seemed sincere and respectful. He's caught in a no win situation on this one.
Michael, I understand that Steve's letter was respectful and sincere. I also understand how it is important to be consistent. But, maintaining that website costs me money. I don't make a dime. I even pay the municipality to park so that I can attend the meetings. I don't advertise. I do this as a public service so that I can give back to the community.
Yesterday was not a good day for me. Hearing from Steve, the woman who wrote "What is relevant is that there are many people who care deeply about
our community and volunteer their time to serve." and the frustration I have with our Teflon coated school board threw me over the edge.
Believe me, I am not in this for the money.
Elaine
Wow! This place has a tougher crowd than Blog-Lebo. @Dave: I'm just fine, very busy, and blogging (and tweeting) elsewhere. Readers and followers are welcome.
Mike Madison
Anon 1123-
Get a grip or get help. Steve was respectful- Elaine said so in her original post. No- you don't own the logo and yes- it came from (y)our pocket. The only stupid move was acting like this is a big issue for us to debate. He asked and she voluntarily took it down. If you believe he was heavy handed in that: 1) I missed that in his email and 2) you don't know him. I think he still does those resident coffees so how about before you go crazy why not try to pretend you have at least a toe hold in reality and join him for one. Next.
You did the right thing. Steve was respectful and had his reasons.
Reading the comment by Anon 12:57 AM, I am reminded why it's said that no good deed goes unpunished.
It's funny how these things come back up again. On October 9, 2009, I e-mailed Laura Pace Lilley (and copied Steve Feller and Susan Morgans) with this very issue. The exchange is below. Apparently, it was not an issue that they were willing to fight over at that time.
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I can see some similarities but ours has some significant differences. Ours has six spires but all the ones on the left are green on a white ground while all the right ones are white on green ground. Additionally, ours is evocative of a tree with a graduated pattern. Whether it's grounds for infringement is a question for those higher up the food chain than moi...
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
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Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 20:26:14 -0400
To:
Cc: Steve Feller; Susan Morgans
Subject: Mt. Lebanon Logo...
Hi Laura:
When we saw you and Mr. Feller at Uptown Coffee, you and I started to discuss how similar the Mt. Lebanon logo was to the design on the judges desk on Dancing with the Stars. Attached is a photo of it. I apologize for the quality.
Let me know if you think it's the same logo.
Next? Anon 11:23 AM, you sound like that wicked tongued individual whom I spoke of previously. Care to comment on Mike Madison's perspective? Or are you trying to snip this thread too?
Anon102
Wicked? What are you a Disney character?
I notice that you do not make a statement as to the post I was commenting on- I would like to assume that is because you know that anyone who found the “respectful” exchange between Steve and Elaine insulting either is insane or must live in a special type of place where everyone holds hands and sings camp songs all day long. If that exchange- which again Elaine said was respectful- was so insulting that Anon had to demean Steve for it then I don't know how that person survives driving to work. I have heard many many many more insulting conversations just standing in line for the T!
As for Mr. Madison’s comments- I have no reason to doubt his analysis so I didn’t. If you wish to debate him on it by all means do so.
If you though would prefer to be like the post I referred to, and throw insanity grenades for the sake of insanity grenades- I guess Elaine allows that. To that I definitely say next!
(I do recognize that Elaine doesn't snip threads. Her choice. Just like its her choice to post Anon comments. Just like its her choice to post my comments that try to ring the bell when I hear stupidity.)
Comment on Mike Madison's perspective? What for? Why does that have to do with anything?
Got me. Someone wrote this to me:
"Care to comment on Mike Madison's perspective?"
If you forgot you said it just re-read your post. If you are not the right Anon then don't worry about it.
Reading the comments in this chain! We not holding a birthday celebration, we're holding a wake.
And please don't blame Elaine, Mike Madison or Steve Feller. It's us, all of us that have killed it.
It's rather astute that the elders would choose to name the new municipal website.., "mylebo"!
It certainly wouldn't be appropriate to name it "ourlebo" or "lebotogether". "mylebo" is just right!
Hey folks, I am getting confused with all the anon comments. If you are addressing a comment, would you mention the time stamp of the message along with AM or PM? Or better yet,how about signing your name?
As far as saying, "Next," how about letting the readers decide when they are done with this topic. I'm still mulling over what Mike Madison said. I like Steve Feller, but the words "voluntarily take down the logo" indicates to me that if I didn't, legal action was the next step. Did I really have a choice?
Elaine
Assume Mr. Madison is correct and that the likelihood of a legal success for the town would be small. Risk it if you want to. Or, in reality, why does it matter to you? Did you debate the possible legal implications when he asked you about it or did you just go along with it because you "like" Steve Feller and/or want to be a good neighbor about it and help him out (if this is it, then why go back on it?).
It had nothing to do with what I think of Steve Feller as a person. When you hear, "Voluntarily take it down," what would you do when it comes right down to it? I think I mentioned that in my last comment.
Elaine
Re-reading Mr. Feller's email, I think he used “voluntarily” because he realized that your uses of the logo were likely to be protected and, if so, he could not compel you to remove them, only ask. His letter doesn’t read like a threat but a favor asked.
I don't know who you are, but I am not going to answer any more of your questions without an attorney. I am not posting your latest "comment."
Elaine
Elaine, you're right. The next step "might" have been a letter from the solicitor. As Mike explained, they have to enforce the mark as to everyone . . . not just the folks they don't like. I'm guessing the last thing Steve wanted to do was open this Pandora's Box himself.
Consider the informal cease & desist request all part of being an increasingly bigger fish in the blog pond. I think you've mentioned that your views are well into the thousands on multiple continents and you're even receiving awards for your blog. You may not like it or welcome it, but you're officially in the game.
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