What a night! I didn't get home until midnight. The original Discussion Session was to begin at 6:20 PM. The revised agenda listed a start time for 6:30 PM. As usual, the executive session ran late and I believe the Discussion Session didn't start until 7:00 PM. The only reason why White Buffalo was presenting, was because Kristen Linfante wanted them there. Guess who was out of town for last night's meeting? Kristen.
Dr. Anthony DeNicola was MIA. Instead, a technician, Mr. Maddock (didn't catch the first name) made the presentation. Mr. Maddock started off by clarifying that he was not a wildlife biologist as the agenda portrayed him to be.
I want to thank Kelly Fraasch for asking about the video that was originally posted here about suffocating deer. Maddock had heard about the video, but never watched it. I wonder why he never did. He said that the deer was dead and that the moving legs were just a reflex. They bag every deer's head, to avoid the scent of blood, causing other deer to leave the area.
We have the same situation as we did for the last two cullings. A company determines that a deer culling is necessary and the same company would be hired to do the culling. (Sounds amazing similar to the feasibility study done by PK, doesn't it?)
I had to leave the room at that point. It is recorded and will be uploaded on to lebocitizens.com as well as posted on the municipal website.
A very long discussion about Brafferton Field with bids coming in too high. Dave Brumfield and John Bendel thought that it would be better to turf an existing field. Of course. Dave wants Mellon and John wants Wildcat. Blah blah blah. You can hear it on the recordings.
Steve Feller will be recommending another bond issue for next year. I was so punchy that you need to watch the meeting for more details.
Academy Avenue parking issues and traffic options were discussed ad nauseum. Bottom line is that the commission will not making Academy Avenue one way.
PAYT was an interesting discussion. I sat next to Andrew Behrend, not sure of the spelling of his name, during the Discussion Session. He was never introduced when he spoke about PAYT, but I understand he is a member of Environmental Sustainability Board. Kelly and Andrew spoke about Cranberry's successful program. It seems that someone from Cranberry will be attending the next commission discussion session. Evidently, SHACOG has now placed a deadline in the middle November, if Lebo wants to switch to PAYT. I get the feeling that Steve Feller and Tom Kelley are not thrilled about PAYT. Dave said that the cost will double for residents. Steve said that if there is a problem with collection, then the municipality will need to pick up the garbage. Andrew told me during the meeting that containers are problematic, while Kristen and Kelly are leaning toward containers. Andrew wants to sell them on the idea of PAYT and then work out a hybrid program for Mt. Lebanon. I had mentioned to Andrew that everyone is NOT paying the same for trash collection since it is based on our assessments. I am not thrilled about this idea.
By the time all this was over, we moved into the commission chambers and the first resident comment (mine) was at 10:10 PM! Many people left because they were tired of waiting. I didn't get home until midnight. What a night.
111 comments:
PAYT, so what is the point?
According to Brumfield, it is NOT going to save money.
So its recycling. Did Mr. Behrend suggest it would be better for the environment?
Did he do an analyst or is it just another seat-of-the-pants ESB presentation?
How about the increased paperwork, Mr. Behrend? How about the ttansportation of the bills and monthly payments?
The office lighting and computer time overseeing all the customer accounts?
But the most obvious question - why can't you do what ever PAYT does within our current collection system?
How can you be a commissioner and NOT show up for meetings?
The municipal government leadership is becoming totally dysfunctional and irrational !
Thanks for telling the PAYT idiot Andrew that not everyone currently pays the same solid waste bill, and that the cost is based on tax revenue from the assessed value of individual real estate properties, each of which is different.
Which brings up the fact that tax exempt property owners (schools, local government, hospital, houses of worship, other non-profit tax exempt entities) don't pay anything now, but apparently would under a PAYT scheme. Has anyone tried to make that argument in favor of PAYT ? Don't be fooled, their costs would be covered in further tax, tithing and fee increases, just like the storm water sham.
12:39 PM, don't the nonprofits contract their garbage collection? I know my church has a contract with WM. In Franklin Park, residents pay a fee every quarter, around $45 a quarter to put out unlimited garbage.
I think that PAYT is for residents only.
Elaine
Damion, Kristen is a musician, as everyone knows, and performs during some commission meetings all over the country. She will Skype if she is in a different time zone, up until showtime.
The commissioners are getting a little ticked with her because she keeps bringing up deer culling. We all had to sit through her speaker's presentation while she was out of town.
Elaine
The commercial and non-profits are already in a PAYT program.
They cobtract for their own trash pick- up through a hauler of their own choosing.
They can go with the service that offers the best price and convenient schedule.
Why should residents have to operate under a different PAYT plan?
If I'm paying for it out of my own pocket the municipality shouldn't be able to tell me whom I must pay.
If I want to hire a collector that will take all of my garbage and sort it at there facility, why shouldn't I be able to hire them?
I can imagine why they are ticked with her. The decision to run for a political office should be made with the knowledge that you have to actually show up IN PERSON to do the job, that they are paid to do. Skype and conference calling is NOT showing up. I'm ticked that some of my tax money actually goes into her pocket for being a commissioner in name only.
12:12, Someone asked that same question when Sue Rose was AWOL at school board meetings.
The resident was labeled inconsiderate by the board members in attendance.
Ms. Linfante, since you were absent last night from the discussions perhaps you can tell us how your 'experts' opinions seem to conflict with this evidence-
"Tyler State Park, If deer hunts worked, there would be fewer deer December 9, 2012 Burlington County Times
This is the 25th consecutive year that Tyler State Park officials have sanctioned the slaughter of deer. This fact demonstrates the futility of the hunt, because if it truly worked to reduce the population, the hunt would not have to be repeated year after year... Verne Smith, a professor who teaches animal law at Widener University says, "Hunting decreases the herd one year and increases it the next. It's called compensatory rebound and the DCNR knows these facts. Wildlife scientists showed that twin-fawn births were almost three times greater in hunted herds. Hunting provides the PGC with license revenues and residents with a feeling that something is being done about deer numbers...
Tyler State Park, Hunters, protesters at Tyler for annual deer hunt December 6, 2012 Pennsylvania, phillyBurbs.com
“The hunt is an exercise in futility, or as we like to call it, an execution in futility, because it has the effect of actually increasing the number of deer,” said Pearl. “It has the effect of making the deer reproduce that much faster ... The number of deer killed in the most recent hunt was not available Wednesday. Before the most recent hunt, the total was 2,577 since the hunts started in 1987. The average yearly harvest is 117...."
Well, if you decrease the herd size, the deer will have more of a reason to reproduce because there will be food available.
Now, if we went with my plan to pay as your plant, the deer would find less of a reason to be here because my artificial market conditions would have people pulling out their hostsas and replacing them with blue fescue.
A N. Meadowcroft resident thanked me last night and said that this blog played a part in getting sidewalks on N.Meadowcroft. That was really nice of you to say that. Thank YOU. And thanks for reading Lebo Citizens.
Elaine
Jack, seriously you'd be doing a lot of people a favor if you come up with a "plant this, not that" for the deer.
Of course people will bitch complaining they don't want to be told what to plant in their garden but will still complain about "invasive" deer in their yard.
Jack, kind of like the PAYT argument. Why should Neighbor A pay the same amount as Neighbor B for deer culling when Neighbor A plants more hostas? They could pay a hosta fee. Since everyone is forced to pay for the carnage equally, it would be fair for Mt. Lebanon to charge a hosta fee and a rose bush fee. It would encourage people to recycle...wait...I mean...plant deer resistant plants. It would save the Municipality money.
Elaine
I like it Jack and Elaine!
If I have 1/4 acre lot why should I pay the same for a deer cull as the person owns an acre or two lot.
I guess we could call it a Pay As You Feed fee!
You have 20-40 ornamental bushes and plants on an acre lot that are like a magnet for deer you pay big time!
Have one hosta on a postage stamp sized lot you pay next to nothing.
If the logic is good enough for garbage collection its good enough for deer management.
Elaine, the muni staffers haven't figured out that there's money to be made off them thar hostas!
Give them time, they'll figure it out.
A few members of the Community Relations Board were invited to the deer discussion. Two members were there to get a feel for how the community was reacting and wanted to learn more about the program. I suggested that if they wanted to get input about the community's reaction, they should read this blog.
Elaine
Get a feel for The community's reaction by attending the commissioners' discussion meeting!
You're kidding right? The rooms has seating for probably less than 40 people and they're going to get a feel for how the community of 33,000 people feels! Hahahahahahahahahaha
This is really slick, in case people don't know about it. You can click on any topic on the agenda, and it will take you to that portion of the video.
http://mtlebanon.granicus.com/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=3&clip_id=75
Elaine
Elaine,
Mixing issues of PAYT and PK makes no sense unless you want to hire PK to raise private funds for PAYT. Good luck with that!
Mr. Ewing, Elaine made no such suggestion to hire PK for PAYT.
We all get your infatuation with them and we're looking forward to the day their fundraising efforts deliver that last penny that puts us over $6,000,000. Until then, PK doesn'tnot impress.
I said mixing issues made no sense; I did not say Elaine wanted to hire PK.
Elaine didn't mix them either.
She just pointed out the similarities in the investigative process and the hiring process between the two efforts.
We went to the "experts" in 2006 to see how to handle the deer population. Wildlife Services did a study and recommended that we shoot deer. Guess what Wildlife Services does? Shoot deer.
We went to the "experts" in 2007 to see how to handle the deer population. Wildlife Services did a study and recommended that we shoot deer. Guess what Wildlife Services does? Shoot deer.
We went to the "experts" in 2012 to see if it was feasible to have a fundraiser. PK did a study and recommended that we have a fundraiser. Guess what PK does? Fundraise.
We went to the "experts" in 2013 to see how to handle the deer population. White Buffalo did a study and recommended that we shoot deer. Guess what White Buffalo does? Shoot deer.
Either we are incredibly lucky or there is a pattern here, John.
Elaine
Elaine,
I don't know what you know, or who you know, about fundraising but you are very quick to be critical of it any chance you get. Give it a chance to work, if it doesn't then tell us about it.
John
John,no need to be defensive. How about this, John, and if you don't get it,then there is nothing else I can say.
We went to the "experts" in XXXX to see how to ____. Said "expert" did a study and recommended that we____. Guess what Said "expert" does? _____.
I am terribly sorry that I brought up PK. Feel better?
Elaine
I believe in PK, Mr. Ewing. Mt. Lebanon Community Endowment donated $10,000 towards the Feasability Study. Mr. Joseph Rodella is on the Board of Directors. . http://www.mtlebanonendowment.org/about-us/board-of-directors/
Are they still in business, 11:00 PM? At one time there was a link on the MTLSD website along with MLFE. I don't see one anymore.
Never mind. I am going off topic.
Elaine
The experts, are't experts. They are business owners making a profit off Mt Lebanon relying on them as experts. There's a conflict of interest there, which should be avoided. The experts are biased in favor of their suggestions! Ugh.
thanks for the report... I believe Andrew's last name is Baram.. there was a PG article about his push for trash reduction last summer..
Yep, that is who I was sitting next to. http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/neighborhoods-south/a-newsmaker-you-should-know-promoting-greener-practices-one-trash-bag-at-a-time-695038/
Thanks! My apologies for messing up your name. Andrew.
Elaine
When are we gling to wake up to tthe liberal, progressives and their nonsense.
Read the PG article on Mr. Baram. He looked around his neighborhood and decided his neighbors disposed of far too much garbage and there for they must pay.
Well, Mr. Baram I looked too. You and your fammily of 6 plus a cat generate far more CO2 than a family of two. And supposedly, according to these progressive CO2 is responsible for global warming.
So Mr. Baram, I propose we create a Pay As You Breath Fee.
Then lets talk about the human waste that your family of 6 generate. More urine, more excrement, if they're girls more tampons and sanitary products that must be treated before going into our river system.
Should by all means, lets have a Pay As You Flush fee. And don't tell me we already have one... You kids don't pay to use the restrooms at school.
Speaking school, how about a Pay As You Learn Fee?
Your 6 kids Mr. Baram , take up more space, require additional paperwork, more electricity, more desk, more food than my family of one, or a single person household, so let change to a Pay As You School fee!
Again, when are we going to stand up to these people?
Linfante wants deer killed, so everyone must pay for her want.
Baram thinks his family his environmentally friendlier than everyone else, so we must pay.
Well, Mr Baram, ifvFranklin gets his turf, your must Pay More!!! You have a family of six, which potentially will get more use out of it than another household of one!
Oh and Mr. Baram, how come the ESB isn't discussing where that artificial turf will go every 7 to 10 years when it needs replaced?
How avout the electrity the field lights will need to make the artificial field playable far into the evening?
Following PNC's lead (Mr. Baram's employer) of charging customers user fees, I think the municipality should issue debit cards.
Need a desk in class at school, swipe your card, need to use the restroom or one of those new cool looking water fountains... yep you got it, swipe your debit card.
Want to use a playground or ballfield... swipe the card!
Welcome to Mr. Baram's Pay As Youu Go world.
Oh wait, he didn't say put a fee on everything did he?
Correction, after rereading tbe PG article it appears Mr. Baram's family comprises 4 people not 6 as I initially thought the article in the PG said.
That still doesn't change the observations made in my comments.
A family of four uses more of everything than a household of one. Two students occupy or use 200% more school space, materials and supplies, teachers than a household of one with no children.
9:05 AM, not to take away from your message, he is a family of four plus a cat.
I want to know why the ESB never says boo about artificial turf. Am I asking too much by expecting consistency?
Elaine
Elaine, that is a major point. The environmental groups in Mt Lebanon are sitting on their hands while turf projects are being pushed. They should be the first ones fighting against turf as it has a major environmentally negative impact.
The environmental groups in Mt Lebanon should be extremely vocal about a deer cull.
Their duplicity is not going unnoticed.
Yes Elaine, somewhere I got it in my mind that he and his wife had four kids and I submitted a correction, which apparently hasn't appeared yet.
Never said I was above making errors or typos.
What struck me funny in the PG article was that Mr. Baram is preoccupied with checking out how much garbage his neighbor's put curbside.
Then, after he does that and suggest they need to pay for their frivilous ways, he doesn't offer any solution beyond separating their waste and paying for it.
What is he suggesting... One truck for food waste, one for cans... one for bottles... One for newspapers and MTL magazine... One for old mattresses and chairs?
Ask Mr. Baram about the environmental impact of stadium lights! The production of electricity to run the lights, the disposal ogf the bulbs, the lights impact on the animal world.
Then ask him what homeowners are supposed to do with their trash that he doesn't want them putting curbside?
Ask him how many 40 gal. recycling cans a used up artificially turfed soccer field will fill.
That'll occupy him and take his eyeballs off my curbside garbage for a while I hope.
"They should be the first ones fighting against turf as it has a major environmentally negative impact."
I'm in no way in favor of the artificial turf. But the concept that there is "environmentally negative impact [sic]" is silly. The amount of energy and carbon output from regular mowing, watering, fertilizing and pesticides (both in application and production) comes close to having as much of a negative impact as artificial turf. It's just about a wash: http://www.treehugger.com/green-food/artificial-turf-versus-real-grass-which-is-greener.html
"The environmental groups in Mt Lebanon should be extremely vocal about a deer cull."
Now this is utter nonsense. The existence of humans has caused the deer population to explode. I'm sure you're familiar with the food chain. We tolerate deer but do not tolerate the species that would keep the deer population in check. Thus, the idea that there's a negative environmental impact to culling the deer, a process which we're preventing from naturally occurring, is preposterous. Moreover, deer are inextricably linked to forest degradation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White-tailed_deer#Forest_degradation
"[The environmental group's in Mt Lebanon] duplicity is not going unnoticed."
Similarly, your demonstrated lack of a grasp of environmental concepts is not going unnoticed.
Really 11:01?
Ask Mr. "Person You Should Know" Because He Counts Garbage Cans why the ESB doesn't stand up at the meetings on artificial turf and stadium lighting.
http://www.lampclick.com/effects-of-light-pollution.html
"Artificial lighting has a significant impact on plants and animals. Some plants only bloom at night. Excessively bright skies can prevent this from happening, according to Florida Atlantic University. They also make it more difficult for nocturnal creatures to pollinate these plants. Light pollution disrupts the normal development of deciduous trees. It can cause them to keep their leaves during the winter. If wet snow or ice accumulates on trees with leaves, the extra weight will break their branches. Unnatural lighting interferes with bird migration and insect reproduction as well.
Plants are more biologically active at night, and when the natural ratio of light is affected by manmade light sources, their ability to photosynthesize and properly flourish can be hindered. Think of animals as well. Many animals use the safe protection of darkness to forage, but when their environment is suddenly illuminated by a new light source this can throw all of their routines and rhythms off balance. Studies show that about twenty percent of primates and about eighty percent of marsupials are nocturnal, which obviously is affected by excess light pollution. Bats, rodents, and owls – they are all at risk. Their foraging patterns are compromised, their risk of becoming a predator increases, their biological clocks can be affected, road mortality increases since many animals need a few seconds for their eyes to adjust from darkness to light, and if they are suddenly on a lit road, they may not see a car approaching. Artificially lit areas are not as friendly to animals as they are to us.
There have been studies on mice that prove their biological clocks are affected by light, and in Hawaii the bright lights of a football stadium were so disorienting to certain birds that they mistook the lights for the moon and flew around in circles until they dropped from exhaustion. So you can see, we need to implement solutions for our own safety and for the plants and animals that are harmed."
11:01 ask the ESB to do an analysis of the environmental plein air artists.
What do they do with their Old aluminum tubes of acrylic (plastic) and oil paint? When they wash out their brushes where does the wastewater containing solvents and turpentine go?
How about the flurocabons emitted from spray cans of fixative, varnishes and spray mount?
How about all the drawings and sketches on paper that get thrown out? Solder from jewerly making and the gases from their torches and soldering irons.
Seems you need to get a grasp on environmental concepts 11:01.
The deer aren't being culled due to forest degradation. No one cares about what they are doing in our parks. The people who want the deer eradicated are the gardeners. However, I'd like to know what they have done on their properties to address the problem. Why do we have to pay for deer to be culled so their gardens look better? There is not a safety issue with deer in Mt Lebanon that is legit. If there is, then show me the data.
11:47, data, they don't need no data, they don't need to show you no stinkin' data!
These green weenies are truly bandits in my opinion.
Hey 11:01, did you actually read that article or just do a quick search and punt it?
3rd paragraph in case you missed it:
"But all is not well at the fake green side. Artificial grass does not have the natural mechanisms for cleaning and renewing itself that the natural variety has. So the question of hygiene arises, especially where children or sweaty athletes are involved. Many synthetic grasses have antimicrobial components. "
And the 5th paragraph in which he clearly discounts the point he made in the 4th paragraph:
"Manufacturers will certainly protest that the rate of release of silver ions is very low and the antimicrobial chemical is bound tightly into the plastic polymer. But with silver ions showing up in carpeting, appliances, cleaning products and even your socks, the impact of growing amounts of silver in the end-of-life product cycles certainly raises concerns about silver biocides."
The write does not draw a conclusion, rather brings up points to consider and in the end, leans towards not having a field at all(in case you missed it).
It is funny that you refer to that website. That website also has an article where the author says that current recycling is BS.
Recycling is BS; Make Nov. 15 Zero Waste Day, not America Recycles Day
The article is rather funny because he completely ignores that re-usable bottles are heavier and require a lot more fossil fuel to haul around which leads to more emissions. That's why the industry has moved to light-weight plastic and aluminum to cut their logistics costs.
As for the cull, if you've ever read anything I've posted here before, you'd see I am neutral about the cull if it was done the right way. There's no place in Mt Lebanon that you could fire a rifle and responsibly say you aren't going to risk hitting a human (especially if you are hunting). Likewise, if you saw my posts of "pay as you plant," they are clearly cynical (In case you didn't notice).
Thanks for the feedback though.
11:25 AM and 11:35 AM, I said nothing about stadium lights, garbage cans, paint, solvents, turpentine, "flurocabons [sic]," or solder. With whom are you arguing exactly? Because I didn't anticipate and address every thought that crossed your mind, you find me lacking? I'm pretty sure any rational argument I might make wouldn't work on you. So, please just pretend I didn't write anything at all.
11:47, since I care what deer are doing to our parks (and our forests), your statement that "[n]o one cares" is false on its face.
"Did you actually read that article...?"
Quite. You claimed there was a "major environmentally negative impact." I said, "it's just about a wash." Guess which statement the article supports?
You criticized environmentalists for remaining silent on the topic. In light of the fact that turf installation has a nearly identical environmental footprint to keeping the grass, there's not much get my panties in a twist about.
11:01 I understand environmental concepts probably as well as you so... If I'm going to pay a trash collector out of my own pocket, I'll choose which one I'll use, OK?
If I want to pay extra for a hauler that will take all of my garbage in one truck and sort it at their facility rather than me doing it that is my choice.
I'm paying as I'm throwing and I don't need you or Mr. Baram telling me I'm not the environmentslist you two are.
You're plan requires multiple trucks, more paperwork and doesn't save the environment any better than my plan.
So get off your pedestal!
Oh no Jack, 11:01 has the market cornered on grasping environmental concepts anything you might point out is hijacking or asking questions is just plain ignorance on your part.
According to them!
11:01 did you fail to grasp this environmental concept from your tree hugger comparision?
"Plus the waste from the chemical manufacturing processes for artificial grass must be taken into account. Score that game "rained out." It will take a significantly more thorough life cycle analysis than the scope of this article to judge the winner of that argument."
So 11:01 its not the wash you somehow deduced it to be!
A couple of things. If artificial turf and natural grass is a wash, why do they sell ecofriendly turf? Wouldn't the ESB be high on that?
Second, as much as I am against White Buffalo, they did say that the "browse line" is not noticable here. On the municipal video, go to the 7:16 minute mark. A browse line is when the deer are eating things they don't normally eat. So they are not struggling. The deer are not doing anything to our parks and our forests.
Elaine
The ESB was Cappucci's brainchild. Blame her if they don't do their job.
Cappucci is also the person that replied to the CAC 'experts' when they said building C didn't have to be torn down she had no intention of revisiting building C.
So much for grasping concepts, eh 11:01?
Life cycle analysis, total cost of ownership are completely foreign concepts to people like Cappucci, Linfante, Baram and Papke.
For them, its I thought of it, I like it, and I want it now!!!
Damn the torpedos, damn the facts, damn the costs (its not going to come out of my pocket) governance.
Elaine, please point to a single artificial turf manufacturer that makes both regular and "ecofriendly" products. FieldTurf doesn't. Neither does SYNLawn. Nor does Polyturf.
You sure you're not thinking of actual turf? 'Cause lots of companies sell grass seed marketed as environmentally friendly.
Nobody can answer my question about ecofriendly turf?
Elaine
2:59 PM, evidently, Mr. Bendel found one. http://www.kellyfraasch.com/2012/10/19/a-compromise/
Elaine
http://www.newgrass.com/products_newgrass.htm#sport
NewGrass Green Aware Products
The Green Aware Difference
NewGrass products are truly unique … genuinely green in every sense of the word. The blades of NewGrass products are 100% polyethylene - no nylon. Their backings are an ultra-soft composite of non-woven eco-friendly EnvrioCel™. The entire product is 100% recyclable. NewGrass® is proud to be an ally in the EPA’s GreensScape Program and the only artificial lawn that is Certified 100% Eco-Friendly, from the way it is manufactured to the company’s pledge to properly recycle any NewGrass® lawn at the end of its usable life.
Sounds ECO-FRIENDLY to me 2:59. Field turf for one makes 10 different turf products, are you sure they don't have differently grades of eco-friendliness?
This sounds like a job for the League of ESB crime fighters!
We wouldn't want to install any type of turf that wasn't ECo-FRIENDLY would we Mr. Baram?
12:08 PM - If you care about the parks, then you would have listened to the White Buffalo representative that evidence of the browse line indicates that they aren't damaging our parks.
Also, here is how a Bethel Park couple responds to wildlife in their yard from the news TODAY:
http://www.wtae.com/news/local/allegheny/deer-gets-basketball-stuck-in-antlers/-/10927008/22376388/-/8jgxcez/-/index.html
Mme. Moderator:
Please keep in mind that the experts told us:
1. that the HS would be built for $95million
2. that the Affordable Care Act would let you keep your insurance and reduce premiums
3 that municipal and SD pensions were properly funded
4 that school population would steadily increase
is there anything the experts have told us that made anything better?
The Swamp Fox #2
11:01/12:08 no one said you talked about the environmental waste produce by the Plein Air artists, nor am I suggesting we stop the Plein Air event, but you said: "Similarly, your demonstrated lack of a grasp of environmental concepts is not going unnoticed."
See if you can grasp this. You were essentially defending the ESB after someone said their duplicity was obvious on things like turf, deer calls, PAYT.
Mr. Baham appears before the commissioners supporting PAYT, because it will increase recycling. That's good in a sense, why not recycle aluminum and glass if its cheaper and more energy efficient than creating new aluminum and glass from scratch. I suppose if it were the same for paper or vegetable oil and potato skins, and food waste it would be wise to recycle that as well.
Why PAYT is necessary to do recycling like that is beyond me and rather than making snarky comments explain the rational please.
Such as why in our current trash collection plan can't we recycle? If the trash isn't seperated the hauler doesn't take it until its separated.
I'll bet once a homeowner finds their trash not being picked up, they'll learn to recycle pretty darn quick.
PAYT or not.
Or look at it this way. If someone generates 1 can of trash and cans, diapers, bottles, newspaper is in that 1 can, how does PAYT contribute to recycling?
But as you're making your defending the PAYT idea, could you please also explain why these environment protectors are conspicuously absent on the turf issue or tearing down a very usable 6 story building?
Both will eventually fill a landfill. Doesn't the ESB care that several tons of plastic turf will end up in a landfill? That used tire rubber pellets end up in our streams and rivers.
That several thousands watts of electrity to turn on and keep the new stadium lights burning?
A coal fired, oil burning or nuclear plant is going to probably generate the power, that has to come from somewhere to light the lights.
But the ESB is silent on those environmental issues. Why? Isn't saving the environment important?
PAYT is the limit of their environmental concerns?
Just one question.... If Dave B. gets away with this and all our money is spent to turf fields and light them can us old farts demand to use them too? What would happen if non-youth groups flooded for weekly permits for these fields? I've paid taxes here since 1962 and NEVER used a single baseball/basketball/tennis or other sport field. My kids ALL went to private schools 1-12. Funny how none of them lives in Mt Lebanon. Two live in Peters and the smart one lives out in Washington County.
I'm passing on an article sent to me about PAYT not working. Pay-As-You-Throw Blamed for Trashing up Presque Isle Roadsides
Elaine
Another article sent to me: Pay As You Throw Programs: A Contemporary Sham
"'Pay-As-You-Throw,' programs have enjoyed nominal success in some communities but has otherwise been an abysmal failure in others. Proponents and Advocates of PAYT dismiss the contention that PAYT will fail in some communities. Often times, PAYT programs are nothing more than creative cost-shifting measures for lazy community officials to avoid dealing with their own trash disposal challenges. Nevertheless, there is one constant in all PAYT programs...Great pains are taken to conceal the negative externalities of these programs. From the EPA right down to the local city government official, more often than not, the "paid trash hack" will not be candid."
On another note, I have been known to take my metal scrap to Castriota Metals just before the Liberty Tunnels. Wear old shoes because it can get pretty muddy. You also have to bring your driver's license since there are some who are trying to sell those copper downspouts that they steal. There is a lot of money in scrap metal. Just ask anyone in construction. Or a particular athletic supporter.
Elaine
The Nature Conservancy, an advocate of stewardship, writes that, absent control by predators or humans, superabundant whitetail deer present a greater environmental threat than climate change:
http://blog.nature.org/science/2013/08/22/too-many-deer/
Thanks, C. And since White Buffalo has determined that our habitat has not been degradated by deer, that makes the case for sterilization that much stronger.
Elaine
6:16, your kids are lucky. Peters and other Washington County communities are leading the way when it comes to turfing fields. They've installed about 3 or 4 in the last couple of years. North Strabane's new facility is great.
6:16, They all live in Washington County, because Peters Township is in Washington County.
http://www.peterstownship.com/
Not sure if their smarts came from you.
Thanks, Dave a.k.a Lebo Fields for that information about North Strabane. It turns out they charge fees for the different sports groups and require that the sports groups provide general liability insurance. They also prohibit signs and banners. Maybe we're going about this all wrong.
http://www.northstrabanetwp.com/wp-content/uploads/Park%20and%20Facility%20Policy.pdf
Elaine
Are you suggesting that the sports groups don't purchase liability insurance?
I can't respond to that, 12:07 PM. I do know you don't pay any fees to the Municipality.
Elaine
"[S]ince White Buffalo has determined that our habitat has not been degradated [sic] by deer, that makes the case for sterilization that much stronger."
Elaine, could you please make up your mind if White Buffalo is to believed or not? Seems that you alternate between taking them at their word and portraying them as manipulative monsters depending on the argument you're trying to make.
12:21 PM, early in the presentation, the technician was showing examples of browse lines that were not observed here in Mt. Lebanon. I had never seen any browse lines nor did I know what the term meant until it was explained during the presentation. So why would I disagree with that? Is it a case of all or nothing, 12:21 PM? I don't agree with deer culling and I think their methods are dreadful.
Elaine
Kelly had asked the technician whether or not residents should leave their homes during culling. His reply was that no, people should just go about their business. He also mentioned culling during the day. I wonder how the person who had a hard time explaining a dead deer on Castle Shannon Blvd. would handle sharpshooters killing deer outside their homes. Let me tell you, it will give your kids nightmares. Kids need to feel safe in their own homes. Actually everyone needs to feel safe in their own homes. Trust me on that one.
Elaine
Culling during the day = absolute insanity. How are they going to keep people away from this shoot-out?
I don't know, i'd be more creeped out by someone in my neighborhood walking around with a rifle or the sound of gunfire in the night!!!
There is no good time or place for a cull in densely populated Mt. Lebanon, except possibly on the golf course, and couple of parks. Even then, how do avoid not hitting a dog walker that chooses to walk their dog or kids sneaking a few drinks.
The cull proponents constantly exclaim we must do this because its only a matter of time before there is a serious injury with a deer collision.
How come its not "a matter of time" before an errant bullet misses its target or deflects off a branch and hIts an unintended or unseen target?
Plus, if you only hunt in the sparsely populated areas, how do you get all the deer?
If the hunter is hanging out at the park at night and the deer are peoples' yards eating their plants how does the bag the deer?
Furthermore, does a property owner have no rights as to whom can and cannot come on their property? If I see someone in my yard late at night with a rifle and felt threatened enought to fear for my safety shot them would I then be guilty of murder?
After all we just had a Lebo alert for break ins in the Beverly Road area.
Commissioner Fraasch wrote on her Ultra Party blog: "This new initiative, Accessible Lebo is close to my heart as I feel that every parent, child and person should be able to enjoy our green spaces in Mt Lebanon without concerns of accessibility."
If we allow daytime culls I can imagine this conversation: "hey kids grab your jackets we're going to go for a walk in the woods and see if we can watch Bambi's mom get shot!"
E.T.
You must not have read that Nature Conservancy article.
"In some sense one of the greatest losses of all is that deer are no longer viewed as the majestic and even mystical animals of the forest that they were only a few decades ago. To quote Bloomberg: '… it’s hard to think of a more insidious threat to forests, farms and wildlife, not to mention human health and safety, than deer.' ”
The beasts are a regional problem which calls for a combined effort by the communities afflicted by them.
Or, our communities will become like Estes Park Colorado where the whitetail's larger cousins have the run of the town, menacing the citizens:
Downtown Estes Park
Elk Attack
C., we're talking deer in Mt. Lebanon, not elk in Colorado.
Elaine
9:48 Blogs about elk, forests, and farms. We have none of those !
ET and 10:55 anon:
The Nature Conservancy article is about deer and their deleterious effect on the habitat of wild birds and small mammals. We do have those here in these neighborhoods.
C, i am really trying to understand what you are saying. Believe me. What are the deer doing to our wild birds and small mammals? Where are those reports on Kristen's deer "incident" report?
I am saying we should do sterilization before things get out of hand. Are you saying that we need to kill deer because of what is happening with elk in Colorado? That we should kill deer because of "deleterious effect on the habitat of wild birds and small mammals?" You're kidding me, right? Is that the safety issue now?
Elaine
I have to clarify something I said in my previous comment. The money on sterilization should be spent after we do a second aerial survey AND the flooding issues have been addressed and corrected in Mt. Lebanon.
Elaine
I'd like to read the whole Nature Conservancy article, C Durkin. Can you provide the link?
Beast... a nature conservancy article refers to whitetail deer as beast?
News Flash ELaine !
Alvin and the Chipmunks were just wiped out in Bird Park ! Oh the humanity !
C Durkin, is the Nature Conservancy referenced in this youtube video - your Nature Conservancy?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pFfo11W3IVI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DpFfo11W3IVI
Before the muni pulls the trigger on killing deer, I suggest they do a prospective study collecting data yearly on deer counts, vehicle collisions, browse lines, etc. This what they would HAVE to do in other settings before they spent tons of money addressing a so-called problem. I've been going through the parks for many years and I have actually been seeing fewer deer within them. Seriously.
Recent Almanac article re: deer in Mt Lebanon:
http://www.thealmanac.net/article/20131011/NEWS/131019993#.Ulm_or-Zw20
Ah yes, the same Almanac that wrote in a recent editorial:
"Pizza and more in Peters"
"Peters Township is the place to go for a good education and to buy an upscale home for more money than the average Joe makes in a decade."
I guess MTL will be the "place to go" for fresh venison!
Anon, here's the Nature Conservancy article. It was posted without live link so here it is again:
Nature Conservancy - Too Many Deer
ET:
Please read the article.
Nature Conservancy is an advocate for reducing deer population for the purpose of a balance ecology which, absent predators, requires humans to fill that role.
The several pounds of deer feces I remove from my yard each morning indicates that these animals are a problem.
Anon Oct 12 3:59
Yes it is the same Nature Conservancy as you'll see if you read the article, which is dated August 2013. The video you cite is from 2009. The problem of superabundant deer is geometrically increasing.
In a conversation I had with PG nature writer Scott Shalaway on his now ended WMNY radio program "Birds and Nature", he said that the only way to deal with excessive deer is by culling them. And Mr Shalaway prefaced his remarks emphasizing that he likes and cares about all animals.
C, sorry to disagree with you, but deer feces in your yard is not what I consider to be a reason to spend thousands of dollars for killing deer and endangering neighbors. The studies done here, not in Colorado or Timbuktu, so far show no wildlife at risk, no vegetation issues such as browse lines, or any other issue you have raised. I have read your article and I disagree with you.
Why don't you ask Kristen Linfante to update her website and let her promote your cause. You may get a better response.
People are dealing with flooding basements. I think if you ask them what is more of a danger, it would be flooding. My guess is that sidewalks and roads are a bigger issue in this town than the amount of deer feces in your yard.There is just so much money to go around.
Elaine
Also, C Durkin, our commissioners want us to pay for garbage. I don't think people are too keen on paying for your deer feces.
Elaine
ET:
My deer feces ?
We'll I have to dispose of it, but they aren't my deer.
The lord of the manor, the Commonwealth of PA, through the Game Commission claims all authority concerning all wildlife, so perhaps you mean theirdeer feces.
This problem is not only Mt Lebanon's. As Nature Conservancy writes and I wrote earlier, this is a regional problem that should be addressed by a combined effort of the afflicted communities of Allegheny County.
C Durkin, there are plenty of experts and articles suggesting that culling does not work and may actually increase the problem.
MTL had a cull just a few short years ago and there is still a deer problem here.
I do agree it is a regional and state problem, so killing a hundred or so deer in Lebo in tiny Mt. Lebanon will do nothing to rectify your deer feces problem for more than a few months at best.
Perhaps you should change your selection of plants to ones that deter deer. You can recycle the deer manure as free fertilizer for your new plants.
Hate to break this to you C Durkin, but there is no "lord of the manor!"
Pennsylvania is a Commonwealth and an online dictionary describes that as:
"com·mon·wealth (kmn-wlth)
n.
1. The people of a nation or state; the body politic.
2. A nation or state governed by the people; a republic.
3. Commonwealth
a. Used to refer to some U.S. states, namely, Kentucky, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and Virginia.
b. Used to refer to a self-governing, autonomous political unit voluntarily associated with the United States, namely, Puerto Rico and the Northern Mariana Islands."
So you see C Durkin, it is your feces after all.
Did you see the article regarding deer population control in North Park in the Post Gazette sport section this morning? Check out with whom they are discussing the issue.
2:05 PM, I did see that. Thanks. I want to remind everyone that Mt. Lebanon is six square miles and has a population of 33,000 residents. North Park does not have 5,500 people per square mile. Forests and farms do not have 5,500 people per square mile either.
Elaine
C Durkin, I don't think you read the very end of the article you keep pushing. It states:
"Opinions expressed on Cool Green Science and in any corresponding comments are the personal opinions of the original authors and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Nature Conservancy."
Elaine
C Durkin your comments please on the evidence that deer culls had no effect on the deer count?
"For example, after 10 years of an annual urban cull, the environmental manager for Wilton, Connecticut, concludes "If we harvest 300 a year it could take us maybe seven [more] years.... But of course that does not include baby deer." The city of Little Canada, Minnesota did a deer survey in 2010 finding 110 deer in the town. They culled 52 animals. The next year, in 2011, the survey showed 109 animals, basically no change in the herd size. Rapid City, South Dakota, has been killing deer in the city since 1996 with no measurable effect and at a cost of over $350,000, a program that has recently come under scrutiny. InLewis Morris Park, New Jersey, an annual deer cull since 1996 produced the following effect: 63.2 deer per square mile in 1996, 65 deer per square mile in 2009. Cost analysis typically ignores this effect."
http://www.deerfriendly.com/deer-population-control
ET:
You are just bobbing & weaving.
All three authors are officials of the Nature Conservancy:
By Allen Pursell, Southern Indiana Program Director, The Nature Conservancy in Indiana; Troy Weldy, Director of Ecological Management, The Nature Conservancy in New York; Mark White, Forest Ecologist, The Nature Conservancy in Minnesota and the Dakotas
C Durkin the numbers in the article offered at 3:38 isn't bobbing and weaving! I say its more like a right upper cut to the jaw.
Bobbing and weaving? You mean like talking about elk in Colorado, promoting a blog which doesn't necessarily reflect the opinion of the Nature Conservancy, deflecting to deer being a threat to forests and farms, moving on to a threat to wild birds, and small mammals, continuing to a conversation you had with a PG nature writer on a now defunct radio program, to finally declaring that you have too much deer feces in your yard. Who is bobbing and weaving? How about some facts that apply to Mt. Lebanon?
Elaine
Several pounds of deer feces every morning C Durkin?!
That means our wooded lots must be covered in tons of the stuff. That is unless you and your Conservancy pals are bagging it up too.
C Durkin,
Thanks for sharing the Nature Conservancy article.
One question, however: The article argues that deer are a threat to "eastern forests," offering northern Minnesota and Smoky Mountain National Park as examples. Mt. Lebanon isn't a forest. Is there reason to believe that reducing deer in suburban Mt. Lebanon will prevent deer-caused damage in eastern forests?
Cheers,
Tom
I just got back from Williamsburg Park. While there, I saw the 5 deer that usually frequent my back yard walking around. There were kids in the area but the deer steered clear of the kids.
For those who are familiar with Williamsburg park, it's ringed with houses in all directions.
This brings up a point that James Cannon made and I've made a few times. There's no place in Williamsburg park that you could shoot off a firearm and could not say 100% that you would not risk hitting a house (and I am in no way anti-gun). I don't care how much a "sharpshooter" you are, you cannot, especially if you are hunting, reliably say that you're not going to risk hitting someone's house.
The same goes for Mt Lebanon Park and even Bird Park.
I'm not against a cull if they would do it by bow hunting, which has a reduced risk because the range is reduced.
I think if there's any risk to people, they should not be hunting in Mt Lebanon. A "sorry" from the commission would definitely make up for the consequences.
And... I said in the beginning, there's 5-6 deer that frequent my back yard (including one who had her fawn in my back yard). Frequently, there's deer feces in my back yard along with circles of smashed down grass from the deer taking a rest. It's no big deal. It's not 1/2 as bad as dog feces that shows up despite the fact I don't have a dog.
Jack, I agree though maybe not on using a bow in Wlliamsburg Park.
I was a very good shot with a bow and arrow at one time and could hit center most of of the time from 50-75 yards at a target on a stationary.haybale.
Bet no one would appreciate me practicing in the park and I wouldn't be firing at a moving target where braches and brush could easily deflect an arrow.
Jack and 7:40 PM, the deer "management" people discourage bow hunting because it is less "humane" and don't want deer running around with arrows in them. Williamsburg Park is one of the largest parks in Mt. Lebanon. Remember that all the parks were used, as well as private property which is even smaller!!!! I posted a map of how far a bullet can travel. Without interference, it can travel two miles. How does that make you feel if your neighbors a few doors away OK deer culling in their yards? Certainly people like me living next to parks are not safe. That is why I keep coming back to sterilization. No flying bullets. No arrows stuck in deer running around. Do you want this sort of activity going on? The woman who is behind this felt that dogs on leashes in Williamsburg Park were dangerous!!!! Not of it makes any sense. We did this already. TWICE!!!!!
Elaine
How refreshing! http://triblive.com/mobile/4840867-96/elk-game-bull
What a difference in attitude.
Elaine
I nearly took my family up to see the elk in Elk County but we ended up somewhere else viewing wildlife. They reportedly have an amazing welcome center featuring the Elk that obviously draws tourists and revenue.
Does Mt Lebanon need a Welcome Center for visitors interested in learning more about deer? They are a part of SWPA history. There was even a "deer park" at Fort Pitt (see the museum for more details).
I think we need to put up a fence to keep out the California Loons!
It was a joke folks.
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