Discussion Session – Tuesday, October 8, 2013
Open Discussion Session (Room C)
6:20 P.M.
1. Deer:
• Wildlife biologist with White Buffalo
6:45 P.M.
2. Brafferton Field bids.
6:55 P.M.
3. Financial planning review:
• Financial trends
• Overview of municipal debt
• Proposed CIP for 2014-2018
• Proposed user fee schedule for 2014
• Proposed equipment replacement schedule
7:15 P.M.
4. Update on Academy Avenue parking and traffic.
7:25 P.M.
5. Pay as you throw.
7:35 P.M.
6. Dog park.
7:40 P.M.
7. Invasive species in parks.
7:45 P.M.
8. Commission liaison activities.
7:50 P.M.
9. Review of Regular Agenda.
63 comments:
No underbidding or the Pool? Disappointing.
WOW! - 20 minutes on finances - No wonder we are in financial trouble.
I'm on strike when it comes to fees. I'll wait for parking tickets to be collected.
Maybe the municipality can learn something from Washington? Hopefully the House Republicans will link the next continuing resolution to the debt limit. When you really think about it, all that we need is the Treasury to collect the taxes and to pay on Treasury debt and funding for the Department of Defense.
Many of these other organizations that add little value like: The Department of Education; The Department of Labor; The EPA; HUD; etc can be extingusihed once and for all thereby removing a thorn from every American's side.
We've had a partial shut-down for about a week now and we're all still alive, breathing, eating, driving our cars - notice that the end of the world never came.
We should think about the elimination of all municipal functions outside of Public Safety and road maintenance from Public Works.
We can cut everyone's taxes, fire minicipal staff and make the world a better place for all of us!
I am REALLY looking forward to attending this meeting!
Will it be standing room only?? What time should we arrive if want a chair? Ty.. btw.. enjoy your informative blog..
Thanks, 11:34 PM. The Discussion Session is scheduled to start at 6:20 PM in Conference Room C. I have been there many times when it was SRO. I would guess you could get a seat by 6:15. Remember, the public doesn't speak during the discussion sessions. We have a chance to speak at the start of the eight o'clock meeting in the commission chambers. The sign up sheet for citizen comments is on a clipboard on the table as you enter the commission chambers.
Elaine
I hope John Bendel has time to give his report for the Sports Advisory Board meeting. I watched the video and saw that the commission has three votes for turf; they don't care where. John would prefer to see Wildcat turfed. Dave is still hoping for Mellon. We don't know about Kristen's preference. Dave Franklin thought that it would be better to finish up Brafferton, but started doing the math for raising fees $25 per kid per sport. I am not exactly sure how much money was being earmarked for turf. I want to say $400,000 but it could be up to $700,000. TA vote was taken and the recommendation will be to turf Wildcat.
Keep this in mind when going to Tuesday's meeting. The commission majority said that they want to spend money on turf. No one has a plan. But before "Mr. Bendel pisses away more money on other projects," the Turf Board needs to submit a recommendation ASAP.
So when we all get charged for garbage collection, keep in mind that the commission is willing to fund deer culling, artificial turf, and increase fees. We haven't even touched upon discussing an increase in stormwater fees due to the frequency of 100 year storms.
You elected these people. I didn't vote for any of them.
Elaine
Apparently, Brumfield's democratic cohorts on the school board are not publically siding with his plan to turf Mellon.
It would be nice if they put it in the record before the SB election their promise not to turf Mellon. I could see first meeting after the new board is installed a move to reexamine Mellon turf.
After all these are the people that have "cut the budget to the bone" them immediately turn around and distribute bonuses, above market salaries and raises.
After the change in the bond issue designation for funds and the swimming pool bid deceit I don't trust any commissioner or manager at the municipality and that trust will not be restored until the bid fixer gets fired.
I especially don't trust Dave Brumfield or David Franklin Esquire. And I still don't trust the Deadbeat Athletic Supporters. Speaking of the DAS has anyone heard if Mr. Grogan got his $100,000 for a weight room machines?
By the way, when we get the turf some jocks need so desperately, will children be injured by concussions like the Pittsburgh Steelers were? Wow! $765 million won't take care of all the injuries on the Steeler team. Shame on the Steelers money grubbing management.
Yes, John. John Grogan announced at the Sports Advisory Board meeting that Mr. McMurry put Mt. Lebanon in his will for $100,000 more. There is a nice write up about him here. http://www.mtlsd.org/district/greatalumniprogram.asp
Elaine
Anyone know what the meeting last week at Howe School was about? There were more cars up there that evening than on Election Day.
Are concussions more likely on turf? If so, I think you have a real argument against turf. Not only the cost of turf, but now it becomes a safety issue for kids. A new coalition (see AP headlines) was just formed to examine the impact of sports related concussions on kids.
It is a conspiracy 10:33, Open house!
This Tuesday at 10:00pm on PBS
League of Denial: The NFL's Concussion Crisis
October 8th
What did the NFL know, and when did they know it? In a special two-part investigation, FRONTLINE reveals the hidden story of the NFL and brain injuries.
At Howe, it was probably Curriculum Night. Lincoln is having a meeting that will cover morning drop-off concerns. Ask the crossing guards what they see everyday....
10:39 read this article about the NFL and the $765 million lawsuit to compensate some NFL players for health issues. It might help answer your questions about concussions and turf. Heinz field now has a grass field.
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/sports/steelers/concussion-lawsuit-and-the-steelers-is-765-million-enough-706423/
When the high school replaced their turf the board considered saving the e-layer (layer under the turf), if possible, because it is expensive to replace.
The e-layer stuck to the turf and the two layers could not be lifted separately. Saws were brought in to cut the turf combined with the e-layer into several hundred pound blocks and the the two layers were removed stuck together.
There were also emails released under a school director's Right-to-Know Request from the Athletic Director's office that raised the issue of concussion problems as a reason to replace the turf at the high school. Those emails were published on this blog.
We all know there are new Act 1 restrictions on school millage increases. What happens to our kids if a money crunch prevents replacing turf at the appropriate time? Will the kids have more concussions?
You may also remember the board passed a Policy dealing with learning problems experienced by kids with concussions. Remember what that policy said?
Thankfully, turf is not on the agenda for Tuesday. That was the only hot topic remaining that could pack a room. Gone are the discussions of grass vs. turf. It is, "Which field do you want turf, Boys?"
Elaine
Here's an interesting story that was recently published on NFL.com:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000242620/article/idaho-state-researcher-finds-fewer-injuries-on-field-turf-than-grass
Also, if you'd like to read more studies (both public and private) about turf fields, injury rates, lead, environmental issues, etc please visit www.lebofields.blogspot.com.
Dave Franklin
Dave,
Save the electrons. You are getting your artificial turf.
Elaine
By all means visit Mr. Franklin's 'unbiased' Lebofields blog.
While there make sure to look for a TCO (total cost of ownership) discussion. I'm almost certain tbere is no comparison of natural grass vs turf that includes the disposal and replacement of turf once its installed.
Perhaps Mr. Franklin will make available the Moms Team examination at http://www.momsteam.com/health-safety/turf-wars-pros-and-cons-of-artificial-turf.
They don't appear to have a horse in the turf debate far as I can tell. They don't work for a grass company or a turf company, they're not university ADs and don't need to justify purchasing million dollar fields.
To paraphrase what one of our California immigrants said in a school board meeting...
They're just moms!
"Cass explained that the Ravens have problems growing grass because the layout of M&T Bank Stadium doesn't allow the sun to reach the entire field. Toward the end of the year, the Ravens would be playing on "packed dirt," Cass said.
Still, in the latest players' poll, a majority of Ravens preferred to play on grass.
"Turf fields in general are better than the old turf fields, but there's nothing like grass," cornerback Domonique Foxworth said. Grass "is harder to maintain. I think it's more difficult for a reason — because it's safer.""
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-05-06/sports/bs-sp-ravens-turf-stadium-0506-20100504_1_turf-fields-lardarius-webb-ravens
Two additional items in the above article worth noting--
It states the new rubber infill turf has a 10 year life expectancy. I'd imagine the Ravens use a very expensive grounds crew to maintain the turf in that ten years. Do you really think Lebo will make the same maintenance investment?
We should hold the SAB to include disposal and returfing every 7-15 in their cost comparisions.
Isn't it funny that a 'professional' cornerback prefers grass-- "because it's safer."
While desk-bound Mr. Franklin argues for turf. I'd tend to take the opinion of the guy whose livelihood depends on safety issues before those of a lawyer or turf company sponsored analysis.
Now to be fair, the article does point out that Heinz Field natural grass is considered one of the worst. They did have problems, but notsure if that still holds true.
Here's an interesting calculation.
Let's say a 10 year lifespan turfed field cost $1,000,000.
$1,000,000/10 years = $100,000.
Currently, there are approximately 5,300 students in the school district.
$100,000/5,300 kids = $18.87 per kid
So lets say 1/2 of those kids participate in an activity requiring Mr. Franklin's turf. That'd mean a fee of $40/year would cover Franklin's Grass.
That's $10 less than Director Coopers 2 large pizzas.
Can't your SAB or YSA manage that Mr. Franklin? Apparently, not since we saw the financial fiasco the old field maintenance agreement turned into.
Synthetic Turf Playing Fields Present Unique Dangers
http://cafnr.missouri.edu/research/turfgrass.php
Wonder if Lebofields will offer the above study from the University of Missouri?
I don't think the most prestigious colleges with the biggest endowments would risk the legal liability of the health effects on students that the NFL concussion lawsuit is revealing about turf. I'm expecting some of these colleges to reconsider their participation in college football contests. Stay tuned to see if the news about turf dangers to college students leaks out soon.
Oh My! lebo fields won't like that news story will they Mr. Franklin?
Dave Franklin can only recommend. Go after Brumfield, Linfante, and Bendel who are pushing turf somewhere...anywhere. Dave Brumfield wanted it at Mellon, a school district field. So Ward 4, are you still going to reelect Dave as your commissioner? Is he a good steward of your ward?
Elaine
I see that the municipality is anticipating a long discussion session as the video links are listed as Discussion Session, Discussion Session Part 2, Commission Meeting.
I hope people come to the meetings tomorrow night and let the commissioners know how you feel about the agenda items. Pay as You Throw, Deer, Dog Parks, Academy Avenue - which could have quite a few parking spaces eliminated or making it one way, municipal fees, Brafferton Field bids, to name some of the topics.
Elaine
So now you are defending Franklin who fronted for Brumfield?
Is that what you got out of my comment, 11:47 AM?
Elaine
11:47 didn't see any comment by Elaine that defends Franklin, could you please direct us to it?
What she says is fact, Franklin is not a voting member of the commission, his only position is that of sitting on an advisory board.
Do he and Brumfield see eye-to-eye on turf? It appears so and that is why I hope the people in Ward 4 don't accept the unopposed Brumfield and write-in W. C. (What Cost) Fields for their commissioner!
Can you imagine the shock to the local local political scene if W. C. Fuields actually beat an unopposed candidate!
It'd be better to have a real alternative, but for now a write-in is as good as it gets.
I will be surprised if Ward 4 gets 30 votes for W. C. Fields.
Then 12:33 suggest an alternative or are you happy with Commissioner Brumfield?
12:48 with the information on the NFL concussion problems, should we have a football program?
Live film of Anthony DeNicola, Murder for Hire, Evil in America
Warning!!!! This youtube video has this description under it.
"Uploaded on Dec 18, 2009
*WARNING - Graphic Violence*
Film of Anthony DeNicola and his company, White Buffalo, a/k/a Killers for Hire.
There are four non-lethal alternatives for population control:
1. DeNicola's barbaric removal of ovaries. Invasive, high-risk surgery not recommended d by any university or scientific expert.
2. Tubal ligation (if permanent and immediate results are required by government agencies who are in control)
3. Gonacon (no--it's DeNicola's drug of choice and not proven effective)
4. PzP -- best option. Costs are $65.60 per doe. Do not believe the exaggerated and unsubstantiated costs printed and posted by people and groups who do not have the credentials to make up fabricated figures to persuade public opinion away from it's use. It is still considered "experimental" by the government, but it can be obtained easily and used if the Kansas Dept. of Wildlife issues a permit. Preferable to surgical sterilization, it does not require "trapping" the deer as seen here.
Please work in your community to persuade government officials to avoid culling year-after-year, or selecting the worst possible method of contraception. The deer can best be helped by using Anthony Marr's brilliant DAA non-lethal solution. Administer PzP if they must reduce the deer population in suburban areas. DeNicola is a Killer for Hire and nothing else. He'll kill anything for Last published count is over 9,000+ deer. Another video DeNicola promoted himself (live) shows him cuddling a newborn fawn and he next holds a gun to the newborn's head and pulls the trigger ... with a big smile on his face. He's a dangerous sociopath."
Elaine
3:47 yes we should, soccer, lacrosse, hockey all have a potential to inflict concussions on athletes.
Falling down stairs does as well. Should we ban stairs?
Ms. Linfante and Dr. DeNicola are kindred spirits. Both enjoy the act of murdering deer.
What I don't understand with the case for culling is that no one discusses what happens after the cull.
Won't the deer in the surrounding communities quickly discover the abundance of the lush vegetation and migrate here and undo the results of the cull?
By using birth control while it only eliminates a few deer (from shock as argued here) it keeps the current population from expanding.
CFulling on the other hand opens up the area to a new and growing population necessitating another cull in a few short years.
Yes, 4:46 PM, that is exactly what happens. It is called rebounding.
"Definition of Compensatory Rebound Effect
Less deer, after hunting, plus the same abundant food source, equals better overall health, increasing fertility of female deer and causing them to conceive earlier and give birth to twins and triplets. The population rebounds right back up to the original number and eventually higher , m uch like the position Solon now finds itself in.
Hunting to control populations is a manufactured myth, used to justify hunting. Deer can out-reproduce any extermination plan."
https://sites.google.com/site/solondeerdotcom/SolonDeer-myths-and-falsehoods/rebound
Elaine
I am starting to get cold feet about tomorrow's meeting. I would rather not listen to this man. I have emailed the commissioners the video link that was submitted. I don't think me missing the meeting will make any difference. I hope others who are braver than me will go to the meeting.
Elaine
Calling Mrs. Linfante and friends! Calling Mrs. Linfante and friends!
Care to make a comment about rebounding or is this beyond your ability to reason?
I got it, instant gratification and an apparent effort to make your followers believe something is being done trumps logic... right?
4:50 you forgot the concussion possibilities in cheerleading, wrestling and soccer.
A reader shared Kristen's reply.
"Thanks for your comments, but I respectfully disagree with your feelings about culling. Experts in the field repeatedly tell us that there is no non-lethal method that will solve our current problem because our deer numbers are simply too high to manage with non-lethal methods alone.
I agree that these are tough decisions that we are facing, but the safety issues that the deer are posing can no longer be ignored in my opinion. It appears, according to the experts, that at least an initial cull is necessary. In addition, I have no doubt that the current risk of hitting a deer in a car is much higher than the risk of being harmed during a cull.
Thanks again for your input.
Best regards
Kristen Linfante
Sent from my iPhone
Please forgive any texting typos "
I never heard back when I sent the link to the video.
Elaine
Elaine, you make all the difference attending the meetings! You have no idea! Perhaps you can step out while 'Tony' chats up the commission and then go back in...
Don't let the muni/commission win by staying home.
Ok, in 10 years, 10, how many motor vehicle accidents have occurred in Mt Lebanon with a deer?
Tired of everyone from the municipality, district and commission referring to people they want to hire or have already hired as "experts". I don't care what the "experts in the field" have to say. The residents, who live here, disagree. Perhaps, if Kristen and others can't stop hiding behind "experts", we should be called "expert residents".
Several points that Linfante misses. We already had an initial cull a few years ago and we still have a deer problem.
These "experts in the field" that she refers to, do they have names? Wouldn't be the same people that make money off surveys and lethal methods, would it?
She completely avoids the topic of rebounding. So we cull, are we going to erect border fences to keep USC and Bethel deer out of Mt. Lebanon.
Is she going to issue deer green cards?
I wonder if her experts will guarantee their work? No one's plants will be eaten and there won't be any deer/car accidents - or your money back!
11:20 PM, we will never know. Maybe a RTK?
11:12 PM, I considered doing that. I stepped out when the Game Commssion addressed the commission. I resented it when she called us whiners and cryers. This truly does take everything out of me.
11:23 PM, math experts, traffic experts, deer experts they listen to, but they wouldn't listen to structural engineers. When I brought up my experiences in 2006 and 2007 with deer culling, it was dismissed by the commssioners in 2006, 2007, 2011, 2012, and 2013. I guess I am an expert in having deer culling next to my house.
Elaine
I found this website, http://www.cayugadeer.org/news.htm where a town outside of Ithaca paid DeNicola $150,000 to sterilize deer last November. Boy, this guy is making a lot of money. The town mayor sounds like Kristen. She has been trying to get a cull even though 95% of the does are sterilized. The town would not sign the release forms permitting culling within 500 feet from their homes. FIVE HUNDRED FEET.
White Buffalo was hired in San Francisco to kill deer. There was trouble there too.
"Ranchers in the area have complained about finding deer carcasses near residences and trails, with apparent gunshot wounds to their stomachs and other vital regions, indicating the animals endured slow, painful deaths. They insist the shootings are unnecessarily putting residents and park visitors at risk.
Community outrage ramped up this week after local residents spotted White Buffalo hunters and reported seeing deer corpses being carried away. A rumor began circulating that the hunters were herding deer into a hole, mowing them down and burying them.
"There is no truth to that. That has never happened. That never will happen," said John Dell'Osso, chief of interpretation and resource education for the seashore. "Helicopters are being used to monitor and find out where the deer are located. Then shooters drive into the area on ATVs, trucks or on foot."
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Seashore-deer-culling-resumes-3296112.php
There is controversy everywhere White Buffalo goes.
Elaine
I found another website where hunters were saying that they would rather have a hunt instead of having White Buffalo. I am not suggesting that we have a hunt, but the evidence is overwhelming that White Buffalo is bad news. One place decided to have their police force kill deer. I know that our chief is not interested in doing that.
I wish the commission did not have so many hot topics on one agenda, because all of them deserve their own thread. PAYT, Deer, Dog Parks, Financial review, and Academy Avenue...
Elaine
Elaine: In an earlier Blog, I read that White Buffalo recommended a two- phase approach: phase 1 and phase 2. Both phases were the same - culling and sterilization. How will the "experts" determine which deer have been sterilized ? in the dark or anytime ? Will they have magical goggles ?
If they do have magical glasses, that would make for good fodder for next year's commencement speech.
Elaine
11:25
No need for magic goggles....sterilized deer are tagged on the ears.
As usual Linfante makes her usual bold statement that 'her' experts have the only answer.
There are no other experts because she doesn't want any other experts... she found the information that supports what she wants to do, and that's that!
But sorry Kristen, there are alternatives to culling that are safer, more 'humane' and less expensive. Too bad, you've closed your mind.
"Urban wildlife: There are humane alternatives to ineffective culls"
"But Nicholas Read, author of a book on urban wildlife and how to live with it, says culling problem populations of animals in city landscapes is generally an ineffective practice that only makes irritating situations worse while granting governments the expedient appearance of doing something useful."
"“We have created a home for a lot of these animals, Read says. “No wonder they come to town. We took away their territory, their food and their safety while providing a safe haven in the city.
“I wish people would recognize that this is our doing, not the animals. You can’t blame the deer. It’s a problem of our making. I don’t think the deer should pay the price for our problem.”
There’s exhaustive science, he says, which shows that culls of problem animals simply don’t work."
"Regarding deer, one solution, for example, is to make gardens less attractive by adapting them with plantings of shrubs, flowers and ornamental species that deer are known to dislike.
Steve Whysall, our gardens expert at The Vancouver Sun, has written extensively about the growing strategy of what he has called “camouflage gardening.”
“Substitute the unsavoury,” advises Rhonda Massingham Hart in Deerproofing Your Yard and Garden, a book frequently recommended by governments and animal welfare organizations concerned with the conflict between humans and urban wildlife.
“For nearly every plant that deer pilfer,” she writes, “there’s bound to be at least one substitute that deer detest.”
For example, although deer are partial to hybrid tea roses, Hart says, hardy rugosa hybrids that originated in Asia can provide a fragrant, colourful alternative that deter deer with their leathery leaves and sharp, spiny thorns.
She advises that gardeners take inventory of the plants that deer are browsing, then consult lists of deer-repelling plants to find alternatives that will discourage visitors browsing for a free lunch."
http://www.vancouversun.com/touch/story.html?id=8511310
From Amazon--
City Critters: Wildlife in the Urban Jungle
Nicholas Read(3)
""This beautifully illustrated volume introduces readers young and old to the diversity of wild animals that share urban environments with us. Through entertaining anecdotes and compelling and often humorous narrative, Nicholas Read explains where these animals live, how they have adapted to life in the city, and how we can better coexist with them...The book will find ready audiences among younger children, teens, and adults alike. A great resource for urban families seeking to learn more about the animals around them,City Critters also provides an excellent foundation for classroom studies in biology, geography, and environment." (The British Columbian Quarterly 2012-12-01)"
What was the snarky comment made on this blog a while back... "live and learn."
Yes, Kristen and pals... Live and learn!"
For people who don't want deer, perhaps they should reside an environment with more cement.
What are the biggest complaints about the deer?
1. They eat expensive gardens
2. They're starving, so killing them limits their suffering.
3. They poop all over the place.
4. They charge animals.
5. They cause traffic accidents.
Culling will not solve ANY of these so-called problems.
It only takes 1 deer to dart in front of a car "causing" an accident.
I am not against eating meat, but culling here in Lebo is just idiotic. We are supposed to have some of the most intelligent kids that come from parents here.
Seriously, this can't be figured out?
I guess being promoted to one's level of incompetence is clearly demonstrated here in Lebo.
The regular commission meeting started at 10:10 PM. I want to share my citizen comments here.
"Today is National Face Your Fears Day.
I am celebrating this day by coming to your meeting. I chickened out at the Discussion Session and had to leave during the deer management portion of the discussion.
I am fearful that you did one deer survey last February and will not repeat it this February in order to track the true growth of our deer population.
I am fearful that you will not produce a map of true deer incidents recording car accidents instead of deer sightings in people's yards.
I am fearful that you will be hiring White Buffalo to perform cruel acts to our deer and to subject residents and our children to these brutal acts. Deer culling has been proven right here in Mt. Lebanon that it doesn't work. If you won't accept that as proof, there is exhaustive science which shows that culling doesn't work. It is a bandaid approach which results in rebounding. You end up with healthier deer producing more fawns in the vacuum created by the cull. Culling isn't safe. It is controversial. Even the Church has blessings for the animals. Culling is expensive. There is no grant money for culling. Our community is too densely populated for deer culling. It is just a way to appear that you are something useful.
And I am fearful that you will be handing out money to artificially turf a field, any field, where there is no plan or need established. I am fearful of Mr. Bendel when he went to the Sports Advisory Board and said that there are three votes for turf, any field you want. Your choice, guys. What a waste of unassigned funds, when there are so many other ways to spend that money, for projects of needs, not wants. Ways that affect everyone, not just those whose children are in Field Sports.
That's all I got.
Happy National Face Your Fears Day."
Elaine
PTA might spend $100 to re-elect Bendel.
It's getting old... Put it on November's ballot if the people of Mt Lebo want to cull the deer. Want turf so SOMEONE's son can play lacrosse without mud. A pool so SOMEONE's daughter can swim in a "real pool". Dave why was Aqua Club allowed to highjack the pool we have? They screwed it up and taxpayers got the shaft! Guess that will happen AGAIN...
How did the Aqua club "highjack" a pool? Aqua club pays for pool time, without the club the community and SB would be looking for $ in order to pay for upkeep.
Did you know that there is a Master's program at both pools. There are quite a few seniors who use the pool, not just someone's daughter!
Yes, your rants are "getting old".
What is a Master's program?
I think a Master's program is a committed group that practices regularly and rigorously for serious swimmers of all ages -- but older than high school/college.
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