Mr. Suley sympathized with a previous speaker who was caught up in the newcomers tax. He said that the commissioners should apologize to the newcomers and asked for the commissioners to withdraw the appeals. Suley identified the problem by comparing Dave Brumfield's house on Crystal with neighbors' homes. He also focused on Roycroft and Arden, Linfante's and Bendel's streets respectively. A homeowner on Roycroft is paying $500 more A MONTH for a similar home on the same street. John Bendel asked Mike to wrap up his comments, but then you hear Brumfield interrupting him. I love how Suley pointed out, while VP Bendel had asked him to wrap it up, Brumfield was stammering away (my words, not his.)
Thank you, Mike, for highlighting the problem and offering solutions. He disagreed with Dave Brumfield's quote in the paper that it was the County pulling the trigger. Suley corrected Brumfield by saying that the commissioners are pulling the trigger.
Suley is past vice-chair of the Allegheny County appeals board and also was the manager of the Office of Property Assessments.
171 comments:
I'm sorry how does this fix things?
Yes, its great for the newcomers that got hammered by the municipal appeals, but it only perpetuates the broken system.
It doesn't fix the values on homes that were assessed thousands less than what the paid 10-15 years ago.
Gi back and review Moertel's excellent analysis in the disparities between neighborhoods?
I'm sorry, I don't see the win here.
They'll proceed with their free spending ways and raise millage rates.
So, a home in Virginia Manor is assessed for only $20,000 over its 1996 purchased price, while a Sunset Hills home goes up $70,000 in the same time frame.
If a Virginia Manor home only went up $20,000 since 1996 the school district is not preserving property values. It is time to cut staff, cut buildings and increase class size substantially.
What Mr. Suley is saying in his letter to the Almanac is some newly sold homes are being "spot" assessed. The law says you can assess the whole County but you can't just assess on a "spot" basis like the commission is doing.
If the commissioners endorse this you can likely bring a personal liability lawsuit against those commissioners who support this folly and split the legal fees.
I don't get how dropping the appeals fixes anything. The commission should task the solicitor with looking at ALL underassessed properties. Part of the reason that our taxes are so high is that there is a large contingent in the community who pays relatively little because their homes are so underassessed. They have no reason or incentive to speak up against overspending. When homes that would be listed at $1.2 million are assessed at $300k, there is something seriously wrong. I know the county does the assessments, but the municipality has the responsibility to appeal the bad calls. And if they did that consistently (regardless of when the house was purchased), the millage rate could likely be reduced because the properties would be assessed at their actual value. This isn't about newcomers or the old guard - it's about fairness.
I remember Mr. Suley. He was fired by Rich Fitzgerald back in 2012. His inept management of the county reassessment fiasco is legendary.
Perhaps you should do a bit more research before you designate him as a "hero" to Mt. Lebanon residents.
The following sentence sums up Mr. Suley's total ignorance of the reassessment process.
"It’s safe to assume that values have gone up on all properties in three years."
I'm betting he has a better chance of "shooting fish in a barrel" than he does supporting this ridiculous comment.
Wow! I touched a nerve!
Elaine
I'm with 7:57, though I'm at a loss on how we get the system fixed.
If the board follows Suley's advice and undoes the "Newcomers Tax" the 156 complainers disappear.
They'll be happy as Jay Birds knowing they are paying far under the fair market on their homes and leaving a broken system unscathed.
Plus the commissioners will have wasted thosands of dollars on appeals with nothing to show for it.
Lawyers love it, staffers love it but in the end they'll have done nothing... absolutely nothing, but drain the public coffers.
I'm still trying to figure out how freezing base assessment values for 10 years helps the situation?
8:38 AM, I believe the newcomers and Suley are looking at the commissioners' properties and comparing them to their neighbors' homes. Right now, the commissioners are unscathed. This is as bad as Timmy going to the unions and asking them if they would consider pay cuts, while he gets a 7.5% increase.
Elaine
See and link the Allegheny Institute's latest Policy Brief on this. Perhaps the root cause of the problem is the Commonwealth. Everything else is symptomatic and attempts at solutions addressed to symptoms don't solve anything, and may make things even worse !
I said this before and I will say it again.
What is not fair is that there many, many homes in Mt. Lebanon assessed at fair market value. Why should the newcomers get a tax break just because they moved here in the last few years?
If the commissioners wanted more fairness, they could simply institute an automatic assessment every time a home was sold. The assessed value would equal the sales price. For those homes that transfer (the $1 gifts) you could automatically pay for an assessment if it hadn't sold say in the last few years.
But stop arguing that just because you moved here three or four years ago that you should get a 50% break on your assessed value while there are many of us who pick up your share of the taxes that you DO NOT pay because we are properly assessed.
You do realize that it is those homes less than the avg price in Mt. Lebanon that are carrying the water here. Most homes over $215,000 got a break on their assessments while those under that threshold are paying full (or greater than full) freight.
8:56 and Haulk are absolutely correct.
The politicians love it when rather than go after the root problem, we fight amongst ourselves, while they sit back and do nothing.
Why are we focusing on how to gain more tax dollars and not focusing on using less?
There are a few areas that can be cut or privatized with no downgrade in service.
a good start would be going after properties purchased on roycroft and james in 2005 & crystal in 1998.
Because 9:35, people like 0:39 would rather go focus on individuals.
The politicians are playing a little social game game called: "Lets YOU and He fight" while they go on their merry way.
I, as a "newcomer" do not want a tax break. I am all for paying a fair property tax. I don't feel I should pay on 100% of my sales price when there are hundreds and hundreds of homes paying nowhere close to their sales price of YEARS ago. And I could get behind the idea of re-assessing at each sale as long as homeowners are aware that this can happen. Buying a new home is a big deal --finding out months later that your taxes have just gone up thousands of dollars is ridiculous. Home buyers need to be aware that this can happen to them (but might not depending on how the commission votes next year which just further widens the gap). The data doesn't lie, the "newcomers" are assessed 40% more than the community.
And I said it before too, if you believe your home is assessed at fair market value because it is assessed at what you paid a few years ago, then go ahead and list your house for that same amount. I am sure you would be ok selling it for what you paid since that is the fair market value.
You are on it 9:53AM, it's the perfect game of divide and conquer and we are all playing into it like pretty little kids, because that is what the commissioners think we are: A bunch of little kids that need their help to tell us what we want and don't want.
Privatize the Rec Center, Golf Course, and abolish mtl Magazine. There is no need for government to be involved in those areas.
“The present style of management is the biggest producer of waste, causing huge losses, whose magnitudes can not be evaluated, can not be measured”
“The New Economics” 1994 – Ch. 2 -The Heavy Losses-, page 22 by W. Edwards Deming
Need an example of the above... look at Allegheny County's Assessment.
Management, (the politicians and public employees - Suley was one of them) set up and spend millions on a system they know is flawed, because they immediately set up and spend millions on an expensive review process to try and fix it-- the appeals process.
Taxpayers foot the bill to conduct the assessment, then they pay people to review the assessment and then they spend tons of money and hours of time fighting to prove its broken!
Who benefits-- certainly not the homeowner/taxpayer!
The school district/teachers union certainly doesn't care, they get their money regardless of what the assessment figures are.
Perhaps Harrisburg, because we keep returning the same do-nothings to office year-after-year that let this system run perpetually without fixing it.
If you had a company would you start out build a product and figure— screw accuracy and quality— we'll spend millions looking at and fixing all the broken ones later?
You wouldn't if you wanted to stay in business for long.
You'd design and build the best damn product from the get go.
Government doesn't have to do that.
10:07 exactly right.
Bower Hill Swim Club isn't a cess pool, does anyone ever ask why our community pool turned into one and Bower Hill didn't?
http://www.bowerhillpool.com/
"For almost 50 years, Bower Hill Swim Club has offered the South Hills community an alternative to Country Club amenities. With a heated pool, Cabana, snack bar, large sunning area, ample lounge chairs, changing rooms, lap lane and baby pool, Bower Hill is the answer to so many South Hills residents on hot, summer days."
9:16am. You stated that " there many, many homes in Mt. Lebanon assessed at fair market value". Come back with your number. Even if that is true, there will be far far more homes that are underassessed just because they are not recent sales. This is what new buyers are trying to convey.
I am always disgusted with this guy's (DB)comments against citizens. He always tries to avoid core issue of his idea by asking one sided question without thinking the other bigger side of the spectrum. What can I say? Everytime I watch recorded meetings, I wish I can scold them about their attitude like when I teach college kids.
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/region/2013/06/02/Despite-so-many-appeals-no-Allegheny-County-reassessment-mandate/stories/201306020148
"But critics disagree, saying the high rate of appeals shows the reassessment's sloppy methodology, which used computer models to calculate values and relied on fact-checking from homeowners to fix mistakes.
"Their attitude is that you can appeal your way to uniformity," said attorney Ira Weiss, who represented Ms. Cranor in her suit against the county. "Instead of doing it right, they tried to fix it through the appeal process, which is the worst way to do it. It cost them time and money.""
Think Brumfield is going to turn up the heat on his fellow democrats at higher levels of government... not a chance!
To be fair a republicans probably wouldn't either with the Governor.
Dave Brumfield is not going to turn up the heat on himself and fellow commissioners.
Dave, you want to make this go away? Look at your own homes first. I believe the newcomers have been saying all along, that they don't mind paying their fair share as long as you do too. Look at how much money Mt. Lebanon has been losing since 2005 and before? Why stop at 2006? Could it be that two of the commissioners bought their homes in 2005?
It is bad enough that taxpayers are funding your damn toxic turf, but now you are sticking it to the newcomers who will come here because of your damn toxic turf, at least you perceive they will be coming to Lebo because of your "crown jewel."
Question to those in the know. Where do the appeals go, once Lebo collects? Please don't tell me that it goes in the unassigned funds.
Elaine
I stand by my comments at the meeting. The reassessment wasn't my idea. A taxpayer who was reassessed because he bought a house sued the county. A question: Why can't someone put his name after his comments?
The state constitution madates uniformity in taxation. Similar homes should have similar tax bills. The Mt. Lebanon Commission scheme will only result in more assessment inequities.
Mike Suley
Mt. Lebanon Resident
Elaine,
There seem to a lot of very upset residents...
Exactly what is the role of the Community Relations Board?
http://mtlebanon.org/index.aspx?NID=67
It seems to me that hot political issues that have polarized our community like: the municipality's participation to support the high school addition; the current tax reassessment policy of targeting specific homeowners; the legacy of smartass comments by municipal staff about residents, etc should be managed through a program of community relations.
So, where are our Community Relations representatives and why aren't they making an effort to reach out to the community?
You'll love this, John. Susan Morgans is on the Community Relations Board. It is the school board and the commission who divided this community. They can fix it if they wanted to.
Elaine
"Over the next 40 years and in response to changing society, the CRB has moved far beyond its original singular mandate of encouraging compliance to laws in the area of human relations. Today, the board plays a proactive role in creating a welcoming environment for people of diverse backgrounds and ensuring that all residents of Mt. Lebanon have the opportunity to enjoy a high quality of life. Through monthly meetings, dialogues, forums, studies and surveys of individuals and groups in the community the board has attempted to identify the residents’ needs and to bring them to the attention of elected officials and the general public."
http://mtlebanon.org/index.aspx?NID=1021
haha, Nancy Carroll, the attorney from Diversified Service, who represents Mt Lebo during appeals, is on the Community Relations Board. Let's see her reach out to the upset taxpayers.
The Community Relations Board is essentially defunct, inactive, unaccountable, impotent, irrelevant and a window dressing dodge for the Commission just like several other boards.
WOW! That is SOOO SHOCKING!
Susan Morgans????
OMG! Isn't that Merle Jantz and Laura Lilley's direct manager?
I wonder how John Pinto would feel to learn that Merle Jantz has a boss that is responsible for Community Relations?
What is that amount that we pay Susan Morgans? Something around $100K plus benefits?
Mr Suley, thank you for your comments last night and for your fine public service.
Mr. Suley, I agree with your explanation above at 3:50, you are exactly right.
But you argument to the commission seemed to be focus only on "rolling back" the newcomers tax.
How does this fix the uniformity of the assessments?
With your proposal, the newcomers aren't paying the fair market price!
As the newcomer proclaimed, he's OK with paying his purchase price in taxes, its the inequities that disturb him.
My husband and I just found out about this today when we came home from work to find the tax reassessment notice in our mailbox. Had we been aware that this was even a consideration by the municipality, we would have been in attendance last night. We are VERY appreciative of those of you who spoke out against this. As new residents (less than a year) this is icing on the cake to what is proving to be a frustrating experience being a new homeowner here. We want to support those who are trying to influence change -- please let us know how we can help. And THANK YOU again to everyone who attended last night and spoke up.
Rachel - are you a 2013 home buyer? It was actually on the agenda at the last meeting 2 weeks ago but added at the last minute so the only people who could speak out about it were those who already had this happen in 2011-2012.
Thanks for the clarification - yes, we bought our house March 2013. It's our first home and everything about this is new to us, but clearly we need to become more involved in the community to stay abreast of important municipality activities like this.
So this has been happening to new Mt. Lebanon homebuyers since 2011?
Are you aware of any upcoming meetings on this? I suspect the visibility of this issue is heightened now as others are finding the notices in their mailboxes.
Several years ago, a group of us sent out notices to over a thousand residents in Mt. Lebanon who were not taking advantage of the Homestead Exclusion. I hope any Lebo Citizens reader who reads this blog will reach out to newcomers and neighbors and share the following information. You can reduce your assessed value by $18,000 by applying for a Homestead Exclusion. Information is available here or by contacting the Mt. Lebanon Tax Office. Unfortunately, the deadline was March 1 for the exclusion to be in effect the current year. I noticed that a newcomer who spoke last night should file an application for this tax break.
Here comes my dig at the PIO. I had a long telephone conversation with Susan Morgans when we were reaching out to those were unaware of this tax break. Susan would not mention our efforts in the magazine because we were affiliated with the political group, Concerned Citizens of Mt. Lebanon, (later to be associated with Lebo Citizens.) Nice, huh?
Elaine
We have Mr. Suley to thank for this too:
Mt. Lebanon man fought to get assessment records onto the Internet I knew I liked him. He is all about transparency.
Elaine
I wonder if as those realtors drive prospective home buyers past the Taj Mahal and the new Crown Jewel they'll warn those clients that your new home's assessment will probably go up due to municipality appeal and your will skyrocket because the school board has no intention of reining in employee costs.
*I had a long telephone conversation with Susan Morgans when we were reaching out to those [who] were unaware of this tax break.
I updated my website by replacing dead links and adding current information. You can read more about Tax or Rent Relief here on Lebocitizens.com
Elaine
This may help individuals who believe that chasing sales is fair:
https://www.nycourts.gov/courts/9jd/TacCert_pdfs/SELECTIVEREASSESSMENT.pdf
Michael Suley
Mike,
So how do we make this fair? Should the commissioners start in the 1990's, for example? There have been readers who have posted properties that are underassessed by hundreds of thousands of dollars, especially in Virginia Manor, for many years. What about them?
Elaine
Visiting that link in your 7:45 commenting, the athletic boosters never did deliver on their $8 million pledge on the house did they?
Plus the millage rates don't reflect the anti-windfall provision of the reassessment.
Are you referring to the bar graph, 8:10 AM? That is correct. That chart was from several years ago.
And no, they never delivered on the $8 million.
Elaine
Grr. 8:10 PM.
Elaine
EG:
You ask, "How do we make this fair?" Good question. The answer is, you can't.
Once again everybody is chasing their collective tails. There is no relationship between the tax on personal real estate and the owner's income out of which the tax is paid. For the "rich" in Mt. Lebanon the real estate tax is a small percentage of their after-tax income; not so for those living on fixed incomes made up largely of Social Security and pensions. But in neither case does the tax have any relationship to income. Do the powers that be actually believe that private real property produces income? I can't bring myself to believe that even our commissioners would be that addled!
This constant bickering and fighting about making an archaic tax system "fair" is like people fighting over getting a good seat on the Titanic. The entire tax on personal property has to go.
Rachel, I am not aware of any upcoming meeting on this specifically but the commission meets twice a month: http://mtlebanon.org/index.aspx?NID=299
Last year, the municipality targeted sales in 2011 and 2012. Recently those folks have joined together as almost everyone was reassessed at their sales price and received back tax bills.
At the last meeting, the commission voted to target 2013 (and more) so I assume those notices have started to arrive. Make sure you go to the hearing or hire an attorney to attend for you. Comparables will mean nothing to them as all they care about at the appeal is the sales price. Try to find some defects in your house that you can use to your benefit. Welcome to Mt Lebo.
Well, one could argue reasonably that the house's biggest defect is that it is located in Mt. Lebanon in 2014.
Rachel, an attorney won't be able to hep you. Diversified Municipal Services, the company hired to handle appeals, will ask you at the hearing, "what did you pay for your house?". Your answer is their entire case. In all but 1 2011 and 2012 appeals, MTL won sales price and not a penny less. Also, get ready to pay up a few extra thousand dollars as a result of your future "escrow shortage". It's a total scam and the Commissioners have effectively exempted themselves from paying their fair share. As a final slap in the face, they will use your tax $$$ to pay for their pet projects which benefit only a microscopic sliver of the community at the expense and detriment of everyone else. This is a result of a violinist and an attorney with very little or no litigation experience holding commissioner positions.
12:28
The research has already been done for you at Bloglebo when the county-wide reassessments happened.
Apparently because your assessment wasn't adjusted to where it should have been, you didn't care that the County got your number wrong.
Now that the municipality is trying to fix the problem and it is impacting your bottom line, you have an issue?
Maybe it is time for people again to check out this link:
http://bloglebo.blogspot.com/2012/02/making-sense-of-new-assessments-winners.html
The heat map shows the winners and losers. If your assessment went up by more than 30%, you had a tax increase. If your assessment when up by less than 30% (or down), you were one of the lucky one.
I wonder how many of the newcomers made out in the reassessment? I wonder how many are in the third ward? I suspect ALL of them have homes valued at greater than $300,000.
I am sick of carrying their weight because their $300,000 house is assessed the same as mine while my house is only $200,000.
Their is no relief for the newcomers that is equitable.
The question at 8.09: How do we make this fair. The Pennsylvania Supreme Court ruled that the General Assembly must enact legislation updating its flawed assessment laws. At this time, Pennsylvania does not require updated values. The base year assessments are essentially a freeze on values; however, the low uniform base year values are under attack from the Mt. Lebanon Commission. The biggest lie from county officials is: If you like your base year assessment, you can keep it. The real estate market is not frozen in time like to three year old base year values. Selective reassessment on appeal by Mt. Lebanon may be legal but it is nothing more than a back-door tax increase after the millage has been set. The General Assembly will not update its assessment law. It is satisfied with the courts ordering reassessments while new homebuyers are hammered with huge tax increases. Nothing infuriates a property owner who is paying double what many of his neighbors are paying for the same house. The goal should be to preserve the uniform base year values until the next reassessment. A taxpayer should also be allowed to test the base year or current value on appeal. In short, taxing bodies have declared war on new homebuyers under the guise of "fairness."
Mike Suley
anon 6:07 - you don't have the newcomers data so you really shouldn't comment on it. There are absolutely homeowners who own houses below $300K. I believe most of them are between $200-300K. I think you are totally mistaken on what you think is going on. There are plenty of underassesed homes in all the wards - not just ward 3-- targeting the newcomers did nothing to fix that.
the map on bloglebo doesn't take into account any of the houses that went up or down during appeal. Up on appeal from the municipality and down based on homeowner appeal --the pdf Elaine posted with those who went down at least $50K on appeal is very interesting.
Mike, you had me right up to when you wrote "The General Assembly will not update its assessment law."
But, then after earlier noting that base year assessments are flawed you close with "Nothing infuriates a property owner who is paying double what many of his neighbors are paying for the same house. The goal should be to preserve the uniform base year values until the next reassessment. A taxpayer should also be allowed to test the base year or current value on appeal. In short, taxing bodies have declared war on new homebuyers under the guise of "fairness."
Earlier, in this chain you stated that the state constitutions demands equity in its laws.
Now, you're saying we should keep a system that you acknowledge is inequitable and broken.
You can't have it both ways, though our legislators are doing a damn good job of doing it, simply because they're to clueless on how to fix the problem!
It would be a full-time job to keep that map up-to-date.
Even though the reassessment was suppose to be a model of accuracy and fairness, everyone knows it is nowhere close to that.
BRAVO 8:37!!!
6:07a - Your point is misguided as you appear to be directing it only at 'newcomers'. Here are some facts - based on the actual assessment data - to consider...
* In Mt. Lebanon, if you paid under $200k for your house and you bought your house after 1980 - the assessment range is 75 - 90% of your home value.
* If you paid more than $200k for your house, the assessment range is between 50% and 75% of your home value.
* If you bought your house in 2011 and 2012, your home is assessed at 100% of it's value.
The "newcomers" are not upset that their value is representative of market value. Rather, they are upset because they are the ONLY citizens in Mt. Lebo paying property taxes based on 100% of market value. Also - technically speaking, these aren't all newcomers. Several of those impacted by the municipality's actions actually relocated within Mt. Lebo after kids left for college, etc. and just happened to make the move in 2011 or 2012. The disparity in assessed values results in the 2011/2012 homeowner paying ~40% more in property taxes than his/her neighbor. (See 9:54a yesterday, that isn't me - but that person obviously has seen the data as well.)
Given the circumstances, a fair outcome would result in all homeowners paying the same % (give or take) of their actual market value. This can be done two ways: (1) address the ~150 properties that were appealed and bring them in line with everyone else in Mt. Lebanon or (2) address the 9,800 other homes that are under-assessed relative to market value. The municipality has opted to pursue #2 and will focus on the biggest disparities. For those who bought homes between 2006 - 2010 and in 2013, the municipality has announced the next round of appeals are aimed at you.
There are solutions on the table 9:00 am, but there are too many parties— the teachers union, PSBA, appraisers, lawyers, judges and officials that are afraid of change and want to preserve the status quo.
How come the newspapers aren't doing in-depth reporting on these bills?
http://www.ptcc.us/solution.htm
9:11, that is bullshit!
I paid under $200,000 for my home after 1990 and it is assessed at 160% of its purchase price.
In Virginia Manor there is home purchased around 2005 and it is assessed at almost 50% of its purchase price.
You must be a product of that new TERC math.
9:36a
You are confusing purchase price with market value. I would certainly hope your house is assessed higher than you bought it 24 years ago. At the rate of inflation, $1 in 1990 is now worth $1.80 ~ and homes in Mt. Lebanon have generally appreciated at a faster clip than the consumer price index over the last twenty years. (Yes, we have the data on that too.)
For your market value, try zillow.com or visit the nearest home for sale in your neighborhood and then compare it to your assessed value.
Despite your deep misunderstanding of economics, you are correct about several houses in Virginia Manor and elsewhere that were purchased before 2011. Those impacted by the municipality appeals (i.e. the newcomers) are arguing the exact same thing.
well said 9:11. It seems those who have not purchased a home in years confuse purchase price with market value. Yes, your home should be assessed more than you paid 10-20 years ago! Heck, even 5 years ago! If you do not agree then sell your house to someone at the purchase price you paid (i.e. market value in your mind.) That person would one heck of a deal and would not see their taxes increase based on a new sales price!!
9:36AM
Are you David Brumfield? If you are not, it seems like you and David went to the same school. If you think the house you purchased is worth the same today as when you bought it in 1990 you are clueless. That is the problem that we face with our commissioners.
Tell me if you think that our commissioners are paying their fair taxes? Guess what, they are going after neighbors starting in 2006.
Steve Silverman
154 James Pl.
Sale Date: 12/6/2005
Sale Price: $660,000
2014 Assessed Value: $591,000
2014 Zillow Estimate: $799,108
Kristen Linfante
85 Roycoft Ave.
Sale Date: 9/8/2005
Sale Price: $359,000
2014 Assessed Value: $315,300
2014 Zillow Estimate: $445,267
Inspite of your conjecture that I have a "deep misunderstanding of economics", I understand do understand the differences in purchase price and market value and was trying to point out- admittedly rather poorly the inconsistency of your comment.
I do agree with most of it, but there seems to be very little rhyme or reason in the assessment system.
You/they talk about fair market value... how do you determine fair market value on a home without entering it?
Fair market value is nothing more that what the seller and the buyer establish it is.
Not some drive-by assesors or computer algorithms "guesstimate'.
Next you refer me to Zillow for my market value.
Zillow has never visted my home, it could be a 1930s dilapidated hell hole or it could be an Architectural Digest's show piece on the inside, they have no clue and has nothing to do with the neighbor's recent sale down the street.
Property assessments in their present form have no relationship to the real world. Te commissioners know that otherwise they wouldn't be trying to fix the inequities by going after "newcomers" real world, fair market price closings.
There is no defending the system.
Here is the most important question to 9:11s comment.
"* In Mt. Lebanon, if you paid under $200k for your house and you bought your house after 1980 - the assessment range is 75 - 90% of your home value.
* If you paid more than $200k for your house, the assessment range is between 50% and 75% of your home value.
* If you bought your house in 2011 and 2012, your home is assessed at 100% of it's value."
WHY? Why wouldn't ALL homes be assessed at 100% of their value?
Where are all the "overassessed" residents who, as the Commission's red herring, were freaking out about the underassessed? Could it be that these people, like the purported turf advocates, are fictitious and exist only in the minds of Linfante and Brumfield? Please come forward if you are not imaginary... and please, Dave Brumfield, do not continue to respond anonymously in pretending that you are a concerned, overassessed citizen. We know it's you.
Has anyone heard from Mr Franklin since all of this got started?
Attention Mt. Lebanon Newcomers - Let's work together on this. Email mtlebanonnewcomers@gmail.com if you are interested in joining together to review our legal options and the legality of the actions taken by the commissioners.
6:07am
Funny you are mentioning "one of the lucky ones" while you are arguing fairness. So in your world following would be very fair; If so many people got lucky due to decrease in their reassessment AND newcomers got screwed? I wonder what kind of logical process is followed in your brain when you are thinking about this issue.
Why should it be limited to "Newcomers"?
As Newcomer 9:54 wrote yesterday - they're fine with being taxed on 100% of their homes value. It was the inequities that were driving them crazy.
As Suley commented, the state constitution demands equity though somehow we're not getting it.
If everyone were paying their FAIR share tax rates would probably drop across the board!
9:36
You do realize that half of your argument is bullshit too, don't you? How much can you sell your house today when you bought it at $200k about a quarter century ago. Probably between $350~$400k?
Think of you as a new buyer and ask yourself if you are willing to pay for it while older you are thinking 160% ($320k) is too much. Still BS? Well......
We've started a facebook page and contacted local media to spread awareness of this issue. Join us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mt-Lebanon-Newcomers/1410066365922078
I'm going to ask this question again, because apparently I'm a complete dolt when it comes to economics.
So someone please explain it to me.
"* In Mt. Lebanon, if you paid under $200k for your house and you bought your house after 1980 - the assessment range is 75 - 90% of your home value.
* If you paid more than $200k for your house, the assessment range is between 50% and 75% of your home value.
* If you bought your house in 2011 and 2012, your home is assessed at 100% of it's value."
Why should a house purchase for under $200,000 be assessed at 75-90% of its market value and a house purchased for over $200,000 be assessed at 50-75% of its value and a house purchased in 2011-12 be assessed at 100% of its value whether they paid more or less than $200,000?
For that matter why ranges of 75-90% and 50-75%?
Fair market value is - ta da - FAIR MARKET VALUE! Nothing more, nothing less.
As it has been explained to me, the money Lebo gains on underassessments, could go to lowering the millage. Another win for the underassessed commissioners who are exempt from the appeals process.
Elaine
12:47 what you say is exactly what I'm arguing.
How can a home bought in the 90s for over $200,000 be assessed at only 50-75% of its market value, but a home purchaes at the same time for under $200,000 be assessed at 70-90% of its market value?
Shouldn't both be assessed at 100% of their market value just like the newcomers are?
Or the money gained on municipal appeals could go into undesignated funds and be applied to turf!
With 150 wins on the Newcomers values has any commissioner yet or school board director mentioned lowering the millage rate?
They are hinting at a TOD tif though. Which is essentially a big tax break for somebody at the expense of long-time residents.
No, 1:11 PM. I specifically asked about undesignated funds. Like the School District, the Municipality can't have a windfall. So the u derassessed commissioners will win twice.
Elaine
People - stop bickering among yourselves. Better to focus your anger on the School Board and the Commission.
Elaine, if that is the case shiuldn't every property taxpayer being seeing a rebate check and/or a drop in the millage rate for 2014?
After the anti-windfall provision was in affect when the millage rate was approved, they're getting more tax $ from the newcomers than they expected so I should've paid less taxes.
Might only be a nickle, but hell money is money. With the refund I have two to rub together finally.
Residents Against Mt. Lebanon's Newcomer's Tax - join us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Residents-Against-Mt-Lebanons-Newcomers-Tax/1410066365922078
Let's organize.
Newcomers - Email mtlebanonnewcomers@gmail.com if you are interested in joining together to review our legal options and the legality of the actions taken by the commissioners.
MtLebo Newcomers - are you in the current group or are you one of them newly targeted??
12:57 PM and those asking why? That's the big question! It doesn't make sense. Those percentages are the facts based on the county data of all Mt Lebanon homes. No, it doesn't make sense. Yes, everyone should be taxed on 100% of their market value but THEY ARE NOT. Only a small group are.
12:12 if that is the case, why are we quibbling with neighbors, commissioners, and school directors.
We should be demanding audiences with Fitzgerald, Smith, Miller and the Governor.
Perhaps a tersely worded open letter placed in the PG or Trib would do far, far more than bickering amongst ourselves.
Corbett's up for re-election, we have democrat candidates pledging even more money for education and we're operating under the tumb of a broken and inequitable system.
Time to try another approach.
12:12, read the original article. Mt. Lebanon Commissioners pulled the trigger and therefore must face the consequences. They should be uncomfortable showing their faces in public.
3:13 PM, to be clear, they should be uncomfortable showing their faces in public, out of embarrassment and not because they are in any danger. I don't want Kristen Linfante filing another police report against me.
Elaine
Mt Lebanon is paying $20,000 to Diversiified Municipal using tax payers money. All Mt Lebanon is getting is $80,000 per year. Can't they be more creative or not overspend on useless things? Their decision is causing the 149 "newcomers" to pay an additional $400,000 per year and making this homes to be at a disadvange with the next door neighbors all paying 2000-4000 less per in year in taxes. It is causing inequality in taxes between similar homes on the same streets, same bedrooms/bathrooms, maybe difference color brick.
I don't the figures for the muni appealed homes but if your figures are correct that means the school district is getting $320,000 more than they budgeted for. More if the values are retroactive.
It should be divulged to exactly where that "found" money went or is going and whether the district's and municipality's milage rates have to be revised in 2013-14.
http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/issues/detail/approaches-to-property-tax-reform
"The problem with property taxes isn't just in the nature of the tax, but in the growth of spending, particularly by school districts, which receive the lion's share of property tax revenue.
From 1995-96 to 2010-11, Pennsylvania doubled taxpayer spending on K-12 education from $13 billion to more than $26 billion. This increase is common to all revenue sources. Local school tax revenue increased by 115 percent, while state and federal subsidies to public schools grew by 97 percent. Factoring in inflation, real tax revenue per student increased from $10,000 to more than $15,000 last year.
These spending increase have done little to improve the quality of education. SAT scores have been flat and state results on the U.S. Department of Education's Nation's Report Card haven't improved much since 2002. Studies of school district performance show no correlation between district spending and student achievement."
"5 Fixes for Property Tax Fires"
"Indeed, weighted student funding is a better way to fund education, and prioritizes students over staff. It is a particularly important reform if Pennsylvania lawmakers choose to shift funding away from property taxes to other state revenue sources."
http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/policyblog/detail/5-fixes-for-property-tax-fires
Isn't mt Lebanon one of two western pa communities that sought and won the right to be excluded from anti-windfall laws? If this is true and still in place, they can collect as much as they want in a year without reducing taxes.
Questions for the newcomers: Do you want the municipality to stop the appeals? Or do you want the commissioners to broaden the appeals?
Elaine
http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/policyblog/detail/whats-in-the-property-tax-elimination-bill
"Spending Limits: Government spending growth should be limited to the cost of providing services. K-12 education spending could be kept in check by limiting funding increases toinflation plus enrollment growth."
Enrollment in Lebo is falling but spending keeps going up!
Broaden the appeals! Go back to 1900 and make every one of those SOB's pay their fair share!
I would personally love to see the appeals broadened so that there is true fairness but that is just not possible. We keep saying that those who bought in 2011 and 2012 were targeted but that' s not a completely true statement-- it's just 155 homeowners who bought in those 2 years. Others narrowly escaped based on a dollar or 2 or a day or so. Based on the impossibility of achieving their goal of fairness, I would like to see them get out of the appeals business.
Be careful what you wish for!
4:38, the 2013 anti-windfall millage adjustment is here:
http://www.mtlebanon.org/DocumentCenter/View/9197
Mt. Lebanon did apply for an exemption in 2012, but the assessment was delayed until 2013 for tax purposes:
http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/s_774689.html
Not sure if the Fresh Market should be considered a windfall or not:
http://lebomag.com/14527/growing-the-tax-base/
Government is not going to revamp the tax code until enough dissatisfied voters vote out the old and bring in the new. Their is no fairness in government. Initially, it was designed to protect, not provide. Free markets level everything out unless government gets in the way. Unfortunately for us, they are in the way too far!
Constance Spicuous Consumption
Is there any provision in the HRC that would allow for a recall vote?
5:22, that link shows a [Reat] Estate Tax Adjustment of $60,800.
It doesn't show an adjustment in the millage rate, but I'm assuming these budget adjustment are prior to the millage rate being set.
Couple of questions though.
3:51 reports Mt. Lebanon is getting $80,000 from the appeals. Are they wrong - $60,800 isn't $80,000.
That document doesn't show the districts windfall which they get from the newcomers new values.
6:01 - Simple answer - No
You know, we really have to hand it to Mt Lebanon. Emotional issues like this that anger and divide the community come up, everyone goes off like seltzer in water, and then what happens - nothing!
Know why?
Because they've crafted these channels for people to vent/blow-off steam, yell, stammer, rant-and-rave, etc.; and when it's all done it doesn't matter whether or not you're on a blog or standing in front of one of their many BS Commissions that have no authority because nothing will ever change.
In fact, the only thing that all of us have become is a big fat joke in the eyes of the men and women who make a living on taxpayer money.
I suppose that all of this would be bad enough, but do you know what I really hate? It's having these municipal and school district employees run their big disgusting mouths insulting all of us while that arrogance permeates across the landscape - trust me, they will look all of you straight in the face and tell you that you're nothing, you can't do anything - hell, you can't even hire an attorney to represent you with your civil rights!
It's a shame really, because we're all paying for it. Not only are they taking money from your paycheck, money that you'd use to provide the basic necessities of life for your families; but now they are actually embarking on a course to take real property from each and every one of you.
I certainly hope that this all remains peaceful, but I could certainly understand how the anger and frustration could escalate into a very unfortunate situation.
God Bless all of you,
6:01 here is a link to access the HRC and Codes.
http://www.mtlebanon.org/index.aspx?NID=2020
5:03 and 5:17 PM, are you considered "newcomers?"
In theory, you agree, but in reality you want opposite things. What is the concensus of the newcomers? What exactly would you like to see happen?
Elaine
Young families work hard, save and buy their exciting first home. It takes everything they have, but they make it happen. They budget deeply and it works. When asked about the low assessed value their Realtor shrugs it off and says it can only be increased in a county wide reassessment. No worries.
Then along out of the blue a group of faceless "commissioners" come along and destroy not only their dreams but their vision for their future by substantially almost doubling their property taxes. In fact now their property taxes are more than their house payment. There is no way anyone can budget for that. Who has ever heard of singling out a group of residents for tax increases?
To quote another: "The commission should task the solicitor with looking at ALL underassessed properties. Part of the reason that our taxes are so high is that there is a large contingent in the community who pays relatively little because their homes are so underassessed. They have no reason or incentive to speak up against overspending."
Want to see property values drop and empty unsold homes. Continue on the path you are on. Do what's right, reassess everyone to their real value eventiually perhaps with a reasonable inflationary or 5% cap each year so no one is harmed spreading the costs out across the entire community as it should be and everyone wins in the long run.
If you received an appeal notice on your newly purchased home, find a home that is similar to yours in your neighborhood. If the present assessment of your home is similar to that home let me have the address and your appealed address. This is the best way for the media to understand the problem.
Mike Suley
I mentioned this home at the Commissioners meeting. The homebuyer at 637 Crystal Drive is assessed over 40% higher than a larger similar home at 684 Crystal Drive. Why? One sold and the other didn't. It's not fair. Similar homes should have similar tax bills if there is to be uniformity in taxation.
Hey Mike @ 7:54 AM - a really great suggestion, but don't count on the PIO & mtl magazine to touch this subject journalistically even though it affects every resident in the Lebo bubble. The Muni does not subscribe to or tolerate fair and balanced reporting. Only the "positive" aspects of life in the bubble.
I went back to the video at 03:05:23 here.
The commissioners voted to "develop an underassessed identification process for homes sold PRIOR to 2006."
That would include Linfante and Silverman. Is this something that the newcomers have been asking for? I know I have. For some reason, I thought it stopped at 2006. I was mistaken.
Elaine
Elaine, they did ask for that but it won't happen at least for a year. It's something I would like to see really happen but I admit I am skeptical.
11:38 is spot on- with escrow shortage for back taxes, our payment went up $700 A MONTH - there should be a cap on the amount you can reasonably hit someone with at once.
Mike - I am not interested in posting addresses nor do I think it will do any good, but we are assessed more than every house on our entire street by a large amount. In fact, w are assessed more than every home within a 5 street radius.
Here is some proof of how this process (targeting home sales while others are left alone) destroys home values.
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/south/2005/04/13/Fighting-for-fairness-But-assessment-cap-is-undoing-Mt-Lebanon-appeal-victories/stories/200504130347
In this 2005 article, a homeowner is quoted as saying her home was on the market because she couldn't afford to live here. She paid $374K in 2003 and says the assessment went up from $165K to $337K. That home is 1063 Summer place and sold in 2006 for $310K. It's now assessed at $223K. Makes no sense. That homeowner lost $65K on the sale of her home? And the new owners are not even assessed at their sales price from 9 years ago.
There are some comments that I must address:
1. You cannot cap assessments. It is unconstitutional. The issue before an appeals board is market value.
2.Wendy Bell and I did an eight minute piece on WTAE_TV in 2005 showing the disparities between the solds and non-solds. It did have an impact. It's complicated but thousands of those assessments based on a sales prices were rolled back in 2006 and 2007.It could happen again...
Mike Suley
Mike Suley@8:49.
At first after reading your Almanac letter and several comments here it appeared to me at least you were suggesting just undoing the newcomers tax.
Now after reading your 8:49 comment I see I was mistaken.
Since youhave probably more experience on assessments and been in the beauracacy can you share how you'd fix the system to operate as you suggest and what steps we can take to make it happen?
We've been through to expensive reassessments once in 2002 and again in 2012 and its still inequitable.
Speaking to the commissioners isn't going to change the process, that has to happen at the county or state level.
Though if the commissioners and school board were really serving their constituents they'd join the fight.
Thanks in advance Mike.
9:46am, The PIO (Susan Morgans) and the attorney representing the municipality in the appeals (Nancy Carroll) are on the Community Relations Board.
What does that tell you about the community?
Welcome to Mt Lebanon!
Attention Mt. Lebanon Newcomers - Let's organize. Email mtlebanonnewcomers@gmail.com or join the Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Residents-Against-Mt-Lebanons-Newcomers-Tax/1410066365922078?ref=hl If you are interested in joining together to review our legal options and the legality of the actions taken by the commissioners.
Very interesting about Susan Morgans. We've actually had some email correspondence on this issue with her this week that is worth sharing.
Here's our response to a comment she made implying that the tax reassessments only affect a small number of people:
"We appreciate your response but remain deeply concerned by the actions of this municipality in singling out newcomers for tax increases. We strongly disagree that this will only, as you put it, affect a relatively small number of people. The long-term implications are very serious to this community. The actions of the commission will push out young families like us and discourage others from moving in. This should be a publicly debated issue and I am very pleased to hear that in addition to the local Mt. Lebanon publication, the Post-Gazette will be covering this story as well."
The combined county, municipal and district property taxes on my home consume 20% of my after tax, take-home income. If the commissioners get their way that percentage will increase. This Gideon person is right we can argue all day about fairness and fixing the system, but it'll never happen because the system sucks. We are outta here this summer, one year in an asylum is enough.
Bob D.
I would love if someone would figure out how many of these appealed homes ended up back on the market. I know of 2 on the market right now.
Dear Anonymous - I have written dozens of Op-Eds about assessment reform with solutions. State laws do not mandate cyclical reassessment when values are out of whack. There are model assessment systems all over the country. For example: Ohio mandates cyclical reassessment with a county canvass every six years. I teach a seven hour class on Pa. Reassessment law, practices and procedures. My message is simple: Pa. Law must require cyclical county canvasses followed by a mandatory reassessment. There are industry metrics to measure assessment uniformity. When a system is out of whack, a statutory reassessment must follow. The present laws
Permit a base year to exist and this screwed up hybrid system of old and new values. Since other counties are not pressuring state lawmakers for assessment reform the status quo will exist for many years.
Rachel, what an inappropriate response from Susan Morgans. It will "affect a relatively small number of people." Isn't that why it is called the newcomer's tax? It won't affect Susan or her family. Actually, ask her about the home on Forest Glen listed here.
Elaine
So if it "affects a relatively small number of people" makes it OK... is that Morgans mindset?
If so, does she dispense public information based on the number of people it might affect?
If its only a few— oh what the hell, why bother.
Precisely the reason she needs to go.
This "let them eat cake" eliteism has no place in Lebo.
11:45 AM, Nancy Carroll is pictured in the latest issue of mtl Magazine. She is on the Ad Hoc Home Rule Charter Study Committee. You can read about the committee's recommendations on page 11.
Elaine
Correction- elitism, not eliteism
Now you know why the Home Rule Charter review is a joke.
Can you say "protect the status quo!"
Rachel - your response is grea. this needs to be public information and realtors should be held accountable for giving out this information. this is a matter of home affordability - a $700 month increase could mean the difference between affording a home or not.
Off topic here but the mtl magazine article was brought up.
On page 12 it writes about the procedure to issue debt from a super 4-1 majority to a simple 3-2 majority to bring issuing debt in line with other commission votes.
In line... like approving toxic turf!
Shouldn't going into debate be one of the hardest things the commissioners do?
OK, I have some more information, hoping this will help. I understand that newcomers received their reassessments about ten days ago. They have until Monday to appeal. However, there have been newcomers who received notices from the Municipality as late as TODAY saying that they are appealing the reassessments. The notices came from Diversified Municipal Services with an explanation that Lebo is appealing and the homeowner will be notified of the hearing date. So actually, this may be a two step process. If you are unhappy with your reassessment, you have until Monday to file an appeal, which is explained in your letter. If you got a letter from DMS, then Lebo has already started the appeals process. Let's say you bought a house for $350,000, got reassessed for under $350,000, let's say $310,000 (I am just picking numbers) then Mt. Lebanon is automatically filing an appeal for the full $350,000, which is a "slam dunk" as Mike Suley liked to say. I think in any case, you would be wise in hiring an attorney.
Elaine
If you received the appeal notice you should also file an appeal by Monday, March 31. You should take this appeal seriously and show up for the hearing. You will be arguing base year value while Diversified will be arguing current market if you file the appeal. As an owner you are entitled to give an opinion of value. Since Diversified personnel are not appraisers, they may not give an opinion of value. Why? They are not appraisers.
I sent an email to the Mt. Lebanon Commission:
Once again, I am requesting the commission to withdraw the assessment appeals based on sales prices back to 2006. Although you have the right to file the appeal, you also know that the results are pre-determined because the county appeals board will raise the assessment, in most cases, to the sales price. I disagree with Commissioner Brumfield’s statement that this process is fair. If similar homes have totally dissimilar tax bills as a result of your action the results will be disastrous to the fabric of this community.
The welcome stranger policy is frowned upon by many assessment professionals and taxing jurisdictions around the country. Here are the three year old sales that were used for the Court-Ordered Reassessment:
http://www.alleghenycounty.us/salesbysd.aspx
These are the sales that the commission should be focusing on. If uniformity in taxation is your goal, then you should ignore sales after the base year. The taxpayer should be able to test the base year value and the current year market value and be able to choose between the two. As I told you the other evening, the recent sales may be an indication that property values are appreciating. This may spawn litigation which will force the county to reassess all properties sooner rather than later. If you truly want uniformity in assessments you should petition the county to revalue all properties…based on recent sales…countywide.
I know the individuals that Mt. Lebanon hired to assist you with the “sales chasing” scheme. They are fine individuals but they are not appraisers or day-to-day real estate practitioners. If an assessment is raised to the sales price and the owner wants to sell the home a few years later it will be difficult because of the high taxes. Similar homes that were not selectively reassessed on appeal will have much lower tax bills. I have seen this model locally and around the county since 2002. In 2006, County Executive Onorato filed appeals on all of the sales price increases by the appeals board and forced Mt. Lebanon to fight the attempt to lower these properties to the base year values. Is the added revenue to our municipality really worth it?
Do the right thing. Drop the appeals.
Mike
P.S. I would be happy to discuss the negative impact of this scheme with any or all of you in the future.
Mike Suley
474 Haverhill Road
Thanks for that link, Mike. Here is what the County website shows:
"Sales by School Distict [sic]
One of the factors taken into consideration in setting the assessed value of your property is comparable sales in the county. Any homes that were sold between January 2009 and March 2011 were taken into account if they sold at a fair market value. (This means that homes sold at auction or foreclosure or below market value, such as between family members, were not included.) Then, a computer analysis was run in each neighborhood to show recent sales of comparable homes in that assessment neighborhood. If a comparable home in the neighborhood could not be found, the analysis searched for similar properties moving out from that neighborhood in a concentric pattern like a bull’s eye until one was found.
The majority of properties in the county have three or four comparable properties that were determined as noted above. If you do not believe that the comparables listed for your property are comparable, your best argument is to find other comparable homes that can support your case for what your property value should be. In order to help facilitate that, the full listing of properties that sold between January 2009 and March 2011 is being provided for your use and reference. Municipalities have been grouped together by school district to assist you in finding a broader sampling of homes. Simply click on your school district and the full listing of recent sales will open, sorted by municipality. The document also includes type of property, lot and block information, property address and sales data.
Please note that you should look for comparables within your same neighborhood number first and then in other neighborhoods within your own municipality."
Mt. Lebanon Sales
Elaine
It would seem that since Nancy Carroll , who is on the Community Relations Board and the Home Rule Ad Hoc Committee, has a direct conflict of interest. She is a Municipal Employee and directly benefits when home owners lose their appeals. This needs to be reported.
I don't see a website for Diversified Municipal Services.
I looked at the minutes from the Community Relations Board and found this gem from Sept. 11, 2013.
"Staff Liaison Report: Susan Morgans talked about the increasing number of people with mental health issues who are having trouble with their neighbors. Nancy Carroll expressed a desire to make this a topic of a future meeting."
Elaine
Has anyone seen an article on mental health issues in mtl magazine?
Didn't Jordan Halter present the YSA turf plan for Brumfield?
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/south/2006/10/19/Mt-Lebanon-resident-asks-school-board-to-drop-appeals/stories/200610190265
It appears that Mr. Halter is luckier with his new house. Maybe it has something to do with wanting artificial turf.
Elaine
Let me understand this, the resident buys a house in 2004 for $450,000. In 2012 after the reassessment, the property is valued at $279,500. Hence, the resident's neighbors are subsidizing (and have for many years, assuming the rollback to 2002 base year was also far below the resident's purchase price) his potential underassessment and then resident steps up to raid his neighbors' rainy day fund, in case it rains and the resident wants to use a field. Is this a great bubble or what?
Yeah, I think you got right, 9:14 PM. I thought it had to do with his old house, but the article was from 2006. It turns out that it is assessed at what Jim Leyland bought it for in 1988, two owners before him.
Elaine
He could get another $18,000 knocked off with a Homestead Exclusion.
Elaine
The resident argued before the school board and didn't file for a Homestead Exemption? It appears the resident knew enough not to get the County involved.
You need to do some more research, Elaine. The resident in question is listed on your appeals list. The old assessment was $385,000, now at $279,500. (-105,000)
So the resident wanting to raid the rainy day fund, in case of rain, goes to the county and says the house the resident paid $450,000 several years earlier is now not even worth $385,000 . The county agrees and lowers the resident's tax burden by more than 25%, saving the resident more than $5,000 in annual tax contributions, which the resident's neighbors will make up with higher taxes of their own, while the resident drains the surplus monies the resident's neighbors paid to the town. Am I following this?
Price History for
HALTER JORDAN W & SHEILA C HALTER (W) 10/12/2004 $450,000 SALES PRICE
FLORES MICHAEL A & KATHLEEN M (W)
7/27/2000 $391,500 SALES PRICE
ASSESSED VALUE $279,500
8:17 AM, you left out the part about municipal staff and his commissioner helping raise nonmunicipal dollars to fund the rainy day fund project, not to mention that Lebo didn't appeal his appeal. But yeah, you got it.
Elaine
Don't forget, the commissioner who said that it is a fair process, started the board which is raiding our rainy day fund.
Elaine
Today is the deadline to file your appeals.
Elaine
MTLSD CAFR Report shows Total Assessed Values.
2010 - $2,175,275,286
2011 - $2,159,216,301
2012 - $2,164,809,298
2013 - $2,156,859,685
A loss of $18,415,601 in property value comparing Total Assessed Value in 2010 to Total Assessed Value in 2013.
It doesn't take a whole lot of homes (or commercial property) getting preferential breaks in their assessed value compared to their old (or new) purchase price to drive up property taxes for everybody!
Are there really people in this community that believe a home sold in 2000 for $391,500 and then sold again in 2004 for $450,000 is valued in the reassessment at $279,500 is fair and equitable?
Do we have a county executive and two state reps that will sit with their thumbs up their you know what and defend this nonsense?!!!!!
Mr. Suley,
Dominick Gamino of Diversified Municipal Services is indeed a certified appraiser:
http://www.licensepa.state.pa.us/Details.aspx?agency_id=1&license_id=2029348&
http://countypropertyanalyzer.com/
Son of a gun, 1:10 PM, Diversified Municipal Services DOES have a website. http://countypropertyanalyzer.com/about.php
Thank you.
Elaine
Dear Ms. Anonymous - Dominick Gambino is a Certified Pennsylvania Evaluator (CPE). I also have the same certification. He is not an appraiser. He may only value property as a county assessor. He and I do not work for Allegheny County anymore. That means that we cannot appraise property in the private sector. Only a state certified General Appraiser, Residential Appraiser and a Broker/Appraiser may appraise property. I stand by my initial comments.
Mr. Gambino ran the assessment office under Jim Roddey from 2001-2003. I was an assessment consultant for the County Law Department in 2005. I was manager of the assessment office under Dan Onorato from 2006 through 2012. Mr. Fitzgerald fired me in Nov. 2012 at the completion of the reassessment. In closing, Mr. Gambino is not an appraiser.
-Mike Suley
the real question to ask is why don't the commissioner's pay their fair share when their homes are clearly taxed at an unfairly low assessed valuation compared to the bases on which their neighbors and constituents are taxed? aren't these the same people who accuse the rest of us of not being willing to pay OUR fair share---what about their FAIR SHARE??
the "root cause" of inequitable targetable municipal appeals of tax assessments is the municipal appellant itself--the Mt. Lebanon Commission....let's not play word games when it is the aggressive policy of 5 specific people that is clearly the source of the injustice, and increasingly imbalanced taxation of this community
this is not about what method we use to tax everyone, it is all about why some people pay taxes on a different and inequitable basis than others do--tax fairness requires that everyone pays on a level playing field in which values are assessed as of the same time and on the same formula for all-here, the commission wants others to pay on current market values while others (including themselves) pay on an outdated and unrealistically low valuation, thereby evading their social obligations to the community, their neighbors, and their constituents...shame on them
Doesn't every elected official take an oath to abide by the laws (Constitution) of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania?!
If so they are breaking the law of the land by letting some people be assessed at today's market value and others by an outdated base year.
This unconstitution behavior runs from the SB/Commissioners, through Fitzgerald, state reps to the governor's office.
Has anyone thought about the county appeals role in this?
Mr. Suley,
Your CPE expired in June 2013
http://www.licensepa.state.pa.us/
Aren't you the one who decided a commercial property sold for $9.3 million should be assessed at $2.8 million?
http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/1999/11/15/story7.html
So are we here to rip down one more individual, this time Mr. Suley, or are we here to find a way to fix a broken system?
Suley may or may not have an answer but at least he is trying!
More "Lets you and him fight".
The commissioners, Fitzgerald, Smith & Miller and the Governor love it, long as we focus on bickering with each they can continue to play their power games.
I think Mike Suley explained everything in his March 31 at 6:55 PM comment, 4:19 PM.
Linfante must be dancing inside her underassessed house over your comment, 4:19 PM.
Elaine
Yep Elaine, with the attention diverted to whether Suley is still a CPE the commissioners can continue to pick and choose whose property they assessed, the board continues raising millage rates and the county and state do business as usual.
But we'll have sent Suley packing... hurray, hurray.
Sorry for the crosspost, but this is too good of a comment, in my opinion, to write just once.
Another lessoned learn for me. Not only do you get a break for making a presentation in favor of a commissioner's pet project, you are also given amnesty for being the first to donate toward it.
Elaine
Mr. Suley did a great job with his presentation to the commission. I don't think the commission will act on his recommendation. I pointed out Mr. Suley called out commissioners for being assessed lower than their purchase price, yet he said the Walnut Capital property should be assessed at 1/3 the purchase price. Call it bickering between taxpayers, but I'm not sure whose side Mr. Suley will take next. One time he says the recent purchase price doesn't matter, the next time he says it does.
I have always been consistent regarding my position on the selling price. I was quoted in the article regarding the Walnut Capital Property. I said that a stand alone sale, in this case, was not enough evidence of market value. There were no sales comparables to support the selling price either. An appraiser will tell you that market value is the probable selling price. The selling price is what it sold for last week but it may not be evidence of what it would sell for next week. All sales should be scrutinized. The walnut capital property was a speculative sale and the appraiser for the school district would not give an opinion of market value. I have never subscribed to a belief that all sales are market value. That is the problem with chasing sales and making the assumption that the sales price and market value are the same. By the way, a buyer would not care what a property sold for eight or nine years ago...and neither would an appraiser. The questions in an appeal are: What is the current market value? What is the base year market value? The question should never be: What did it sell for in 2006? That's absurd. My point: Chasing sales on appeals destroys uniformity in taxation. Period.
Anonymous wants to know why my CPE certification expired. As I wrote in a previous text, the CPE certification is limited to assessing for a county in Pennsylvania. I haven't lost my certification, anonymous. I chose not to renew it.
There is no need to renew the certification. I hope this helps anonymous understand things a little better.
Thank you,Elaine, for giving everyone the opportunity to discuss the appeals by Mt. Lebanon. I would like to get back to the original issue instead of having to correct people regarding my position on the fair and equitable distribution of the tax burden.
In my original letter to the Almanac I suggested that the commission should have asked the county to review all properties instead of singling out people who bought homes. I have written dozens of Op-Eds on this topic. I sent Ellen one of them today. Please contact her or me if you would like to have a copy of it. I hope that this blog is helpful to others in understanding why chasing sales in the appeals process is a bad idea.
Elaine - You and I seem to be the only ones putting our names behind our comments lately. It appears that "anonymous" may only be two people. What a shame.
I don't regret writing a letter to the editor. I don't regret speaking to the commission.
Again, keep fighting Elaine, and make a difference.
Email me at EGillen476@aol.com, if you would like a copy. Unfortunately, this is what is written at the bottom of the Op-Ed. "Unauthorized reproduction or Web posting prohibited." Unless Mike thinks otherwise, I cannot post it on Lebo Citizens.
Elaine
Mike, believe me, this blog is getting a high volume of traffic. Don't let the anonymous thing get you down. Your message is getting out to many people. Thank you for coming forward and sharing your expertise with your neighbors.
Elaine
Just want to remind everyone that this is about the municipality hiring Diversified Municipal Services to appeal assessments going back to 2006, and figuring out how to go back further than that at some point.
The next commission meeting is April 8, 2014. We have five commissioners making the decisions. I have pointed out how there are irregularities in the assessments and the appeals process. Others have pointed them out too. Let's get back to what the commission is doing about the process and stop shooting the messenger.
Elaine
Mr Suley,
There is a silent majority that is behind you. The sad reality is that most people will not sign their names because they live under the fear of retaliation by the school district, the municipality, and the local police.
There isn't any reason for anyone to live in fear. Nobody should be afraid to post their name or to express their view. Free speech is the foundation of a democracy.
Sincerely,
John David Kendrick
Is there a way to file for an extension for an appeal?
I have to totally agree with Mr.Suley about his comment that all assessments in Mt.Lebanon should be reviewed, not only the new sales. A number of houses with long-term residents are still under-assessed and that turns into a problem when they are being sold and when huge discrepancies between the market values and assessments arise. And I'm pretty sure none of the real estate agents would point out to prospective newcomers that they might be hit with a higher tax in a year or two. In fact, they don't like questions about real estate taxes at all - at least that was my personal experience.
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