Wow! What a night! I am hoping to hear from the newcomers and post their stories, charts, graphs and comments from tonight's meeting. I had the pleasure of meeting many of my new Lebo Citizens readers.
Until then, I just want to say how happy I am to see residents attending a Commission meeting. Newcomers, you really need to go to a school board meeting. You heard the solicitor tonight. If the municipality "presses that pause button," the school board can and probably will proceed. Somebody has to pay for those raises, the $74,000 trophy case and the new teachers' contract.
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| A resident was wearing this sign at the meeting. Copies were available on the table. |
Not to be disrespectful, but I saw a similar reaction last night.
Update April 10, 2014 7:35 AM Residents who bought homes in 2011-12 fighting Mt. Lebanon's assessment appeals
Mt. Lebanon to hold meeting for property owners whose assessments are being appealed
Update April 10, 2014 12:02 PM The April 8, 2014 Mt. Lebanon Commission Meeting video has been uploaded on the Municipal website here.
115 comments:
"Civil" now means, go along or shut up. Kristin wants to run a court room, not a public town meeting. It is interesting though, that the public comments were so clear: if the members of the commission would only listen and not distort what other people are saying, people would be less emotional.
Most astounding of all was the proclamation by Duke law school grad Dave Brumfield that the municipal appeals are "not for the revenue" -- did he seriously expect anyone to believe that? The credibility of the commisioner's is what is under fire here, with such claims as it is the county's fault that the municipality files assessment appeals against its own citizens --- what a whopper that is!
In the end the commission admitted it had the power to stop the appeals, but it declined to actually do so --- this raises serious doubt that they did anything more than a strategic "advance to the rear" so they can come back at the matter another day. The final insult to the community came when the commission made clear that they prefer a one size fits all negotiation with "a representative" so they don't have to address the inequity they have done to over a hundred families. It was poignant to hear one early speaker say that he and his wife now have to consider if they can afford to start a family in Mt. Lebanon as the reassessment consumes the economic resources they need to do so.
"The power to tax is the power to destroy." Oliver Wendell Holmes, Chief Justice of the United States.
This sounds an awful lot like the TERC math citizens effort with the school board and district. Having given up after getting involved with the school board regarding the math curriculum, its refreshing to hear some residents have organized and are being heard on other community matters. Finally. Now if only the school board could sense some pressure and be more responsive to those paying their salaries, benefits and skyrocketing pensions. Ineffective leadership in all areas.
"The power to tax is the power to destroy" says it all. Yes, commissioners, it IS all about fairness and tax equity.
Very interesting how two commissioners skirted the true reason they voted "no" on the municipal-sponsored appeals --- both of them are in the sights of the "next group." Funny how transparent it all is.
Kristin is irrelevant--as she proved tonight. Her only contribution was to tell people not to demonstrate to the commission how outraged they truly are. That does not seem consistent when she and her group refused to allow opponents of the school boondogle to meet in peace by picketing, screaming, and interfering with the right to peaceable assembly. Just another example of the demagoguery of the municipal cabal of insiders. How about a little respect for the people, Kristin?
"The devil made me do it!" Flip Wilson
Wait, Kristin, really? After you and your cohorts ignorantly picketed a town hall intended to predict and wake residents up to the taxation nightmares that are now coming true and tonight you threatened to shut down a public meeting? At least the town hall filled the room to capacity and still succeeded in facilitating engaging discussion.
Wow, what a hypocrite!
What were the realtors mad about?
Please keep that video as it will make a wonderful political yard sign "Shut Up Residents" coming from her mouth. I'm sure she made an ugly face when screaming it.
Anyone notice a theme with a certain group of people? Funny how the dirty dozen who were behind the high school money pit are the same people who oppose dissent. Posti, Pooch, Linfante...know who else has the samw mentality? Despots, tyrants and other maniacs who see the world through a very small lens. Way to go, girls. You all continue to foster selfishness, immaturity and a total lack of respect for anyone else. But you will reap what you've sown. When I try to sell my house and can't because you gals, along with your boy buddies, have pushed taxes to fantastic heights, I am going to pursue every legal avenue available and come after each of you personally for financial restituion. Oh, and Kristin, enjoy that reassesment. You wantes Lebo to be more like the left coast, right? Well here it comes!
taking responsibility for what you do is a basic tenet of being an adult---Brumfield, Linfante, and Bendl need to admit they made a serious mistake and cast a vote to undo the harm they have done to this community --- then they should "in the interest of fairness and tax equity" show leadership by appealing the assessments of their own homes to "market value" --- will the doctor take the medicine he prescribes for others?
The "Newcomer Tax" label for this taxation debacle is a misnomer because it fails to incorporate the impact of this tax on residents who wish to move out of Mt Lebanon. It wouldn't be fair to call the latter issue the "Trapped in Mt Lebanon" tax right? Because residents who wish to move out of Mt Lebanon are going to have a much harder time selling their houses now that the commission has decided to raise property taxes under the guise of "fairness and equity".
Payback's a bitch, isn't it Kristen? Remember how you heckled me four years ago at a school board meeting? Organizing a protest of which you and your fellow protesters had been invited to and declined while your campaign manager was inside taking photos? Screaming at fellow commissioners in Executive Session, which could be heard down the hall in the Commission Chambers? Writing nasty emails to your female counterpart, as revealed in my RTKs? Talk about civility! I couldn't help but laugh last night. Karma, Kristen. We shouldn't feel sorry because you are the only commission president that has been permitted to miss half the meetings, and still be president. I understand you will be missing the April 28 meeting. You've got a great gig going, Kristen.
Elaine
How pathetic Linfante cannot maintain control of the Commission meetings. The boisterous cross-examination that the Newcomers were able to turn last night's meeting into was a fine example of how weak the Commission President really is. She allowed, with Brumfield's help, the meeting to devolve into a situation where the Commission was forced to defend on the spot their newcomer's tax stance- something which I doubt they ever dreamed of having to do. When Linfante attempted to give the happy Mt. Lebo Mag (Rag) version as her response, the newcomers called her out on her BS. To make matters worse, Brumfield could not resist flapping his gums (to the apparent detriment of the other Commissioners) and was backed into a corner regarding blaming the absent scapegoat, DMS. The commissioners were visibly uncomfortable and I think a turning point may have been reached, wherein none of them want to suffer through another onslaught of public backlash like last night. I hope Bendel and Silverman can impart some wisdom into the other three fools to take a step back and realize that last night was only a drop in the bucket of what is to come as the newcomers tax is expanded.
Why don't the commissioners who aren't paying their fair share take the first step and pay their fair share of taxes? Let's start with them willingly having their assessments adjusted to their purchase prices?
They won't because they are a bunch of hypocrites!
Mt. Lebanon neighborhoods have become Lexington and Concord. Buying a home is the American Dream....they are turning this experience into a nightmare.
Mike Suley
They looked weak because their position is weak. There was no real thought put into the process and that shows. I am glad this has opened my eyes and others to the way this town is run.
If the commissioners were to drop the 2014 appeals, the school district would have to wait until next year to go after new homebuyers.
Mike, do you know if the school district and municipality are sharing the cost of Diversified Municipal Services?
I remember a municipal meeting a few years ago when the commission decided against sharing the school district's cost for DMS. That was before this spot-assessment fiasco we're in now.
Last night was impressive. I did not expect to see what I saw. Dan Remely should be given credit for his prediction of a Tax Revolt. I don’t think he could have expected what’s headed their way.
I sympathize because I once was a newcomer and they came after me. When I was re-assessed in 2004, I was alone. I fought on my own but I felt completely alone. I wrote to Dale Colby and his response was something between "stop being greedy” and “well, the school board is to blame.” Oddly enough, I saw that same sort of deflection go on last night. The fact that these newcomers have been able to band together is awesome. I HOPE they don't eventually go-along to get-along.
I'm wondering if the commission will even put that video up on the website. It's so damaging to them (the waffling and 1/2 answers and lack of accountability). John Bendel took the risk of clarifying that he had in fact voted for this once before - I will give him that. Steve Silverman wasn't there for the votes so I'll give him the pass. But the rest of them? They seriously need to learn to stand up for what they believe in (besides turf). If you voted for something, you believed it in. Case closed. If you didn’t believe in it, why would you vote for it? Stand by your decision and be able to explain it without trying to hide your answer behind scapegoats catch phrases like “fairness” and “it’s not about revenue.” It’s 100% about revenue. Property Taxes are 100% about revenue. They’re not some great equalizer or deliverer of “social justice.” They are the way the township raises funds on top of the earned income tax.
The newcomers need to prepare for the school board next. They WILL push for the assessment if the township backs down. They have a Taj Mahal school they need to pay for (and if you look at your tax bills, you will notice they are the biggest hand in your pocket when it comes to taxes). $75,000 trophy cases and astro-turfed rock piles don’t pay for themselves you know.
The revolution has started!!! We need to get long-time residents to stand with the newcomers. We need to stop the abuse of newcomers and stop the looting of the public treasury for the whims of a vocal minority of special interests.
--Samuel Adams
Now, now, 12:17 PM. They did say that they were going to look at properties before 2006. But the question I kept asking last night was, "When?" Every month they stall, the better off they are. I heard how some people are paying $800 a month more! Considering how escrow accounts want the difference up front, that is a big chunk of change. I also heard that some have put their houses back on the market. And Kristen wants civility?
Elaine
Wait a second. A lot of people are jumping the gun here.
Fact is it is perfectly legitimate for the "newcomers" to get taxed at what they paid for their home.
In fact, it is pretty standard practice. Look at item number 6 at the Fox Chapel Area School District web page that has facts about the assessment. They will likely appeal anyone that is less than 85% of fair market value:
http://www.fcasd.edu/pages/Fox_Chapel_Area_SD/General_Info/Fox_Facts/Allegheny_County_Reassessments
Why do they do that? Of course it is to capture additional income but it is also an issue of fairness.
The newcomer argument boils down to them wanting to pay less tax than they should. They want all the other properly assessed properties in town to carry water for them.
It's a shame their realtors didn't notify them of this very common practice, one that was actually practiced in Mt. Lebanon itself as recently as 2004.
The substantially subsidized newcomers need to get a clue. You think the system is unfair? Change it at the State level. I am all for that but I, for one, am tired of subsidizing your share of property taxes in Mt. Lebanon under the current system.
I still haven't heard a good argument on why you want everyone else in Mt. Lebanon to subsidize your taxes. It's a far greater tragedy that so many of the lower than median-priced homes got over-assessed.
Our mortgage went up that much -- perhaps you heard that from my husband! : ) We would have never moved and certainly not purchased this house had our payment been that much up front. Who can plan for that?
I know of 4 houses on the market that were part of the first "newcomers" group. Only one is under contract. It will be interesting to see how long the others take to sell.
Not true, 2:03 PM. Did you go to the meeting last night? They aren't objecting to their house assessment being appealed. They get that. What they are upset is how they were targeted while the commissioners are sitting in underassessed houses. As soon as the commissioners get their homes reassessed, much of this will go away.
Remember how my house was reassessed for a stinkin' roof on my porch while my commissioner was sitting in a house that was assessed hundreds of thousands of dollars under his purchase price? I didn't object to paying my fair share. I expected to be reassessed, but it sucked that I was nailed for such a small amount when Clueless Joe was getting away with it and still wasn't paying his taxes.
Elaine
I don't know Mr Franklin, it doesn't sound like there are too many people in Mt Lebanon who feel that home ownership is not a right but a privilege that comes with the responsibility of paying taxes for things like turf...
Have you ever thought about reconsidering your position? ;)
If you look at the data, we are the ones subsidizing all others. We pay on 100% of market value -- the rest of the community on average is around 80%. If you are not paying tax on what you think you could sell your home for today, then you are likely underassesed. I have not heard any of the newcomers express that they are not willing to pay their fair share and many have said they totally understand their assessment going up but NOT to full market value because that is not what anyone else in the community pays including the commissioners.
It is a shame that this is not published on the MtL site as in fox Chapel. That would be a great step towards transparency in this community and then no one could say they had no idea this was coming. As it is, no one knew even those who moved within the community and were not truly newcomers.
2:03 - using your logic, if the township re-assessed the newcomers, then took, say, your house because one of the newcomer's houses was comparable to your house and filed an appeal against your house using that newcomer's purchase price, you'd be all in favor of that. Right?
You should DEFINITELY volunteer for re-assessment under those terms. It's all about the "fairness." You don't want to be living off of the "subsidies" of others, do you? Get out there and show us the right thing.
I hope to see you at the next meeting where you set a good example and volunteer for the re-assessment. I am sure everyone will be willing to let you talk first at the meeting.
--Samuel Adams
2:36,
Have you examined the comparables of the Newcomers houses? If the County feels that those homes owned by the Newcomers are more valuable than their initial estimate, why doesn't the County and Mt Lebanon challenge the assessment of all of the comparables that are listed for each of the 150 Newcomer's homes on the County web site?
After all, if these houses are all "comparables" then they should have a comparable assessment, right?
Maybe the 150 homes can ignite a wave of County-wide reassessments where the taxing authorities challenge each comparable, and their comparables, and their comparables...
To piggyback what 2:16 said, the Fox Chapel link merely concerns the countywide reassessment and what it meant for Fox Chapel homeowners. Fox Chapel states they will appeal the county reassessed value if less than 85% of fair market value. Based on this statement, it appears Fox Chapel intends to appeal all properties less than 85%, not just the recently purchased ones, which is what Mt. Lebanon is doing. This is an important distinction and the reason Mt. Lebanon's plan is resulting in disparate taxation as the muni drags its feet. Also, Fox Chapel may only be seeking assessed value on appeal that is in line with the average assessed value to full market value ratio for Fox Chapel, but this is unclear from the website link. Mt. Lebanon is going for full purchase price (not fair market value), which, again, is entirely different. Further, Mt. Lebanon is appealing 2006 houses to their purchase price while 2013 houses are appealed to their purchase price. A 200k house will often appreciate 50K in eight years in Mt. Lebanon (50K is approx 1500/year in taxes). This is not equitable or fair.
Also, as was discussed in the meeting last night, Mt. Lebanon does not have the resources to appeal all of the under-assessed properties in Mt. Lebanon in a time period that would be meaningful. There are thousands of under-assessed houses in Mt. Lebanon. Perhaps there are not as many in Fox Chapel. Theoretically, it would be fair if Mt. Lebanon could assess all of the properties to their full market value, but that is not what they are doing and that is not really feasible given the vast number of properties they would need to appeal. This is why a countywide reassessment is needed and why Mt. Lebanon shouldn't have inserted itself into a situation it can't fix.
2:03's comment is similar to what Brumfield was saying and shows a lack of understanding on what is happening and the state of assessed properties in Mt. Lebanon. A municipality trying to reassess properties through the appeals process is not common and the legality of such action is not settled. The appeals process is for fixing clear errors and unique cases, not for reassessing, which is the county's purview.
2:51, the problem isn't the algorithm, Brumfield's opinion or any other measure of valuation. The problem is that everyone is viewing the local taxing authorities (School District, municipal and County) as an onmiscent authority that dictates what we will pay them.
It's not what they tell us that they are going to take from us - it's what we are willing to give to them. That's the proper perspective.
Let's put the shoe on the RIGHT foot and put government back into the cage where it belongs!
OOPS!
Typo ---> omniscient is the correct spelling.
Very well said 2:51.
I envy the high profile speaker whose only worry was deer tapping on her window. President Linfante empathized with her.
Much like how the commission empathizes with coaches who can't get all their games in. Now those are big problems! None of this $800 a month increase in mortgage payments. Oh bother.
Elaine
2:03,
You seem to support the notion that assessment be determined by market value/sales price.
Do you support the notion that fairness then dictates that all homes in Mt. Lebo should be targeted for reassessment if they are significantly off from current market price?
If you do, you'd seem to agree with the newcomers. If you don't, why not? What's different about older assessments?
2:50,
You seem to be suggesting that fairness requires a full countywide reassessment. That seems to agree with the newcomers as well - that targeted reassessments are unfair. Am I misunderstanding you?
Matt C. Wilson
444 Clokey
Assessed at 120% of 2005 purchase,
79% of current Zillow estimate
Matt,
I believe that basing taxation on property values is problematic given the challenge in accurately determining fair market value as well as the disconnect between the ability pay and owning the home (seniors on fixed income comes to mind). However, if we are going to stick with using property values, I believe you have to have cyclical reassessments (every 2,3, or 4 years) done by the county to at least try to have uniformity. This is done in many states and is often coupled with a cap on the amount that the taxes can go up in a single year to prevent huge jumps in taxes that require significant lump sums to make up for the escrow shortfall.
Targeted or "spot" assessments are certainly unfair and that's why the county is not allowed to do spot assessments. Mt. Lebanon is trying to "spot assess" by using their appeal rights for county assessments. I agree with most of newcomers on these issues.
4:08,
I agree, mostly. IMHO the cost of a countywide reassessment needs to be justified by some measurable degree of deviation from market. Otherwise, you're doing it just for the sake of doing it.
So I'm somewhere between N-year cycle and fixed base year. I'd like to see something that surveys property valuation deviance overall, and triggers a reassessment at a given threshold. Similar to the 85% figure that Fox Chapel seems to use - say once X% of the homes are below the 85% line, reassess. But that data can/should be published so people can see the skew and "know when it's coming."
In any case, thank you for clarifying. Hopefully if we keep adding more light and data to the discussion, and less heat and noise, we'll get this resolved.
Oh - and yes, all that is predicated on us sticking with property values as the system in the first place.
Woohoo for outdated land tenure customs! ;)
http://m.cumberlink.com/news/local/no-consensus-support-for-property-tax-reform-not-enough-for/article_e9caffda-bd1e-11e3-9a2c-0019bb2963f4.html?mobile_touch=true
Yes, Elaine, there is a Santa Clause--as Dave Brumfield notes, all new buyers are paying HIS (that is, Brumfield's) fair share because his house is under assessed but protected from reassessment. Why shouldn't DMS appeal his admittedly unfair underassessment (Hint: maybe because he is on the commission?).The commissioners set the policy, and hired DMS, and they control DMS as their representative. It is up to the commission to come clean, and take "fairness" home.
Can it ever be fair to force only part of the residents to be subject to assessment appeals regardless of the valuations of the homes of others? If the goal is "fairness" then all under assessed properties should be targeted. But wait, if the injustice is so great, what about the people who sold those homes, were they not "paying their fair share" or is this just a great big shell game, orchestrated to take a cheap shot at those thought to be least able to protect themselves from arbitrary government action. Shame on the bullies who call themselves commissioners.
is it not "legitimate" to get long-time residents, who have enjoyed the services for which property taxes pay, to pay their "fair share" too? where does this notion come from that newcomers somehow disproportionately benefit? why is it "fair" that longer time residents can comfortably avoid the "fair share" imposed on the rest of us? it seems to me that a strong point is to be made that the under assessed longer-term residents are the freeloaders, having taken the services for which they now expect others who have only just joined the community to pay! The true freeloaders are Linfante, Brumfield, and Bendel who want us to pay what they themselves are unwilling to pay!
ancient notions that land equates to wealth do not reflect modern urban and suburban realities...your city lot does not generate "wealth" to pay taxes, what it generates is upkeep costs, utility costs, and property taxes -- the property tax-appealing commissioners are troglodites who are themselves the authors of inequity and injustice which they then try to pass off as the fault of others (I don't think DMS would appeal anyone's assessment unless they were paid and directed to do so by the commission-do you?)......
what better cover for letting someone else carry your load than to accuse those innocent others of not paying their "fair share" -- the commissioners admit that they are not paying their individual "fair shares" so by what right do they attack innocent newcomers who have never taken advantage of anything taxes here have paid for? the only way to view the behavior of the commissioners is as childish, selfish, and mean spirited....the conduct of our commission has been, and continues to be, antisocial
Bill 1776 is the right and fair way to go. The only tax that is not regressive is the sales tax. It is also the only tax that you can chose to pay or to avoid. If the commissioners want to be "fair" they should become the loudest proponents of the 1776 abolition of the property tax in Pennsylvania. In the meantime, they can stop calling others names while it is the commissioners themselves who are not paying their "fair share."
the commission thinks of itself as a board of equalization, without regard to "revenues" --- what a strange contortion of words and logic, totally contrary to their authority and the facts of what is actually being done. is dementia a known side effect of electoral politics?
A respectful question for our commission president: Ms. Linfante, is it respectful to treat the public like children, lecturing and threatening them while you call them names and suggest that they are less willing to pay their fair share than you are? Maybe on your next European trip you can visit the House of Commons and learn about robust public debate and the civility of tolerance for disparate opinions. You might consider what a great Democrat once said: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." That was President Harry Truman, FYI.
http://www.ptcc.us/tenreasons.htm
"Ten Reasons to Eliminate the School Property Tax
Runaway property taxes are destroying Pennsylvania’s economy, driving away its residents, and are discouraging entrepreneurs from starting new businesses that would create jobs for Pennsylvanians.
Here are ten well-considered reasons to eliminate the property tax that will benefit the lives of all Pennsylvanians and will help to make our Commonwealth an economic powerhouse and a great place to live, work, and raise a family."
Why are the so-called commissioners NOT going after errors in assessments caused by incorrect data? I have several neighbors that have built on to their houses doubling or even tripling the sq footage but have not seen an increase in their assessments. There's one neighbor whose house sits on 4 lots but is assessed the same for land as all the rest of us. There are neighbors that are said to have 2 bedrooms when in fact they have 5. We are in the process of getting our home on the market to sell. If we are forced to sell below the assessed value can we demand a refund from Mt Lebanon and Allegheny Country?
As long as we pay for Brumfield's turf and the commissioners and staff work toward raising non-municipal funds for the turf project, all is good in the 'hood. It took every bit of strength to restrain myself during Citizens Comments when Steve Silverman told me that Dick's Sporting Goods wrote a check for $5,000 for the middle aged jocks. That won't go toward our tax dollars. That will help Dave Brumfield's Sports Advisory Board get their damn turf. Did any newcomer's mortgage increase by $416 a month? That is the same as a $5000 check from Dick's Sporting Goods. The commissioners are using our overtaxed dollars from the unassigned funds to pay for the turf and donations are helping out the sports groups. Some are even going as far as suggesting to close an elementary school for indoor fields. Is that fair, Commissioners?
Elaine
Boy, it's a good thing I recorded the meeting. The commission meeting video is still not on the municipal website! The video for the discussion session was uploaded on mtl's site earlier this afternoon. To think I do this all for free and the others are paid staff.
Elaine
$416 a month buys Dick's Sporting Goods access to all the sports parents emails and a chance to sell sporting equipment to our sports teams?
Such a Deal
Is that all Silverman can do? He must not be well respected at Dick's. Heck, Silverman could write a check for $5,000 and never know it.
Newcomers,
Do you all know why Elaine tapes the public meetings? Well, a short time ago a little tyrant on the School Board didn't like what John Ewing had to say about Board policy and she ordered Mr Ewing's remarks censored. Mr Ewing didn't say anything offensive, obscene, indecent or improper in any way. She just didn't like facing the truth.
Anyway, the meeting was broadcast to the community with a seamless edit of Mr Ewing's remarks. If there is a moral to the story it is that we can't trust what our local governing bodies have to say. Even a rebroadcast of a meeting may or may not be what actually happened.
That's not to say that what comes out of the municipality is completely worthless, because, well, you might say that MtL Magazine has replaced the Sears Catalog in my humble abode. ;)
12:02PM Silverman is supporting the turf project that is going to cost us a bunch, so dream on.
Mr. Kendrick,
We had remarks about a drug user in our swimming pool censored too. He was swimming with our high school kids.
John Ewing
Mr Ewing,
That's unbelievable! Where does it end? Are we at the point that we actually need to count the number of times that we've been censored?
I don't believe anything that they say anymore. As far as I am concerned the school district and the municipality have no credibility, none, zero, nada!
Folks, the best thing for all of you to do is to go to the meetings, get informed, get involved, organize, vote and get elected! It's not a matter of community service - this situation has become so dire that you MUST act to save your homes, your economic future and the safety of your families!
Last night we all heard the Mt. Lebanon commissioners, loudly and repeatedly, reassure local residents that Diversified Municipal Services (DMS) has been instructed to negotiate on all assessment appeals. Below is an actual email exchange demonstrating how DMS actually addresses citizens against whom the municipality has filed property assessment appeals.
Citizen to DMS lawyer:
"You have previously advised that you are not authorized to negotiate regarding property assessment appeals on behalf of the municipality of Mt. Lebanon. According to the unanimous members of the municipal commission, this is not true. Therefore, as I prepare to seek further review of the municipal appeal of my own assessment ... , I ask again if you are prepared to negotiate, and if so, on what basis? Please advise if you insist on sales price as the only basis for assessment or compromise, and if you do, what legal authority you may have to justify that position. If you are prepared to discuss comparable property by square footage, please advise. It seems that within the Mt. Lebanon community it is only the members of the commission who believe that you have been instructed to negotiate with property owners. Thank you for your attention."
Reply from DMS lawyer:
"I am authorized to negotiate settlement of appeals that have been filed at the Board of Viewers. As of this date, court records show no such filing by you. Therefore, since you do not fall into this category of appellant, there is nothing for us to discuss further in the matter of the 2013 assessed value of your property. Regarding negotiated settlements of values at the BPAAR level, the Appeals Board is not permitted to accept stipulated values.
Nancy Carroll"
Response from citizen:
"Ms. Carroll: Well, if you are sincere about a potential settlement, then the formality of filing is just that, a formality. There is "something to discuss" as you put it if your client wishes to resolve the matter -- please advise (your tone conveys no interest in attempting to settle, but this is cold email, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt). Based on your statement, it also appears that you are contradicting the commissioners who assured a large audience last night that you were directed to negotiate all assessment appeals--either you have not advised them thoroughly about the process, or they misstated your authority.
I view this as a question of good faith: either you are prepared to talk or I have to report to the commission that you are stuck on procedural minutiae. It is not at all uncommon for parties to discuss non-litigated settlements before a filing, though perhaps you have more experience than I do. Again, let me know."
Reply from DMS pending. More to follow...
Elaine
118 Marlin Drive offering price $309,900. Taxes $7,883
Property Soccer Association sold for $125,000 at Conner and Terrace is offered at $995,000, with taxes of $135. One hundred and thirty-five dollars is not a typo.
Isn't Nancy Carroll a Mt. Lebanon resident? If so, she is basically doing the dirty work of the Commission, which is hammering only a small grouo of homeowners. That, in turn, will result in more money being funnelled to the Commission ( the gang that couldn't spend straight). I assume Ms. Carroll is being paid and by funds generated by the very homeowners in question. Doesn't seem all that neighborly. Of course, it's a pattern established a few years ago by certain people on the school board. It's every man for himself ( or woman for herself. Gotta be PC to stay within Common Core standards).
Conflict of interest
Comprehensive Ethics Law. Municipal officials and employees shall comply with applicable provisions of the Public Official and Employee Ethics Law, Act 9 of 1989, 65 P.S. §401 et seq.
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/south/2014/04/10/Mt-Lebanon-to-hold-meeting-for-property-owners-whose-assessments-are-being-appealed/stories/201404100096
They say they did this because residents told them their assessments were too high. Why didn't they tell those people to file an appeal to get relief? Brumfield keeps telling the newcomers to fight it if we feel our assessments are too high even though he knows that sales price is a "slam dunk". We saw the list Elaine posted of all the properties that were owner appealed and got significant relief upon appeal. Seems that is a smarter way to deal with a few people complaining. Wait, our commission is not very smart. I forgot. And Brumfield has some serious house envy -- he is leading this charge and says that he would would love to in any of our homes. Really? Does he want to pay my high taxes? Does he want to pay double what anyone else on my street pays? No he does not, he is underassesed and not paying his fiar share.
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/south/2014/04/10/Residents-who-bought-homes-in-2011-12-fighting-Mt-Lebanon-s-assessment-appeals/stories/201404100095
I wish someone would write an article about the one home that did not go in Mt Lebo favor. Corruption. No one will touch it. We've heard the audio from the hearing, I doubt the commissioners have. I am sure they haven't bothered to look into why they lost that appeal that they are paying Ms. Carroll (Mt Lebanon resident and hahaha Community Relations Board member) to fight for them. The owners themselves admitted they were underassesed yet their value stayed exactly the same.
6:53 mentioned a property for sale : 118 Marlin Drive offering price $309,900. Taxes $7,883
Hope someone is telling them that they will be appealed by the commissioners next year because that house is not assessed that high!
Buyers need to know this!
Look, before you villify DMS, you have to understand that they can only act the direction of the commission. The commission might have said that they have the ability to negotiate a settlement, but that might have been in the heat of the moment as they faced angry homeowners. They may have never given that explicit instruction to DMS. It's easy to get angry at DMS because they are the face of the appeal, but remember they are only carrying out the wishes of the commission.
8:14 understood. However, my guess is you have not been attending the meetings. Brumfield stated this two meetings ago and again this week. It was not in the heat of the moment. There is a lack of communication. I agree DMS is only acting based on the commissioners but I do not believe that the commission even understands the process.
8:14 Your are correct - however, Nancy Carroll has also said that the citizen in question started the appeal by filing to lower taxes, which is false -- Ms. Carroll has her own explaining to do.
Lebo can't see the forest for the trees!
"The real faces of the school property tax issue"
"Over the past few years the PTCC and PCTA has been asking homeowners to send us their real-life stories telling how relentlessly increasing school property taxes are affecting their quality of life. The response to this request has been overwhelming; the letters starkly demonstrate the frustration, fear, hopelessness, and anger that is widespread throughout ALL age groups and families from all areas of Pennsylvania over the lawmakers’ inaction in addressing this issue.
It is my opinion that many lawmakers tend to view the property tax crisis and other similar issues in the abstract, seeing them simply as pawns to be played on the chessboard of Harrisburg election year politics rather than considering how these problems actually affect the lives of the people who they supposedly represent.
These politicians who refuse to support elimination and offer nothing but lame excuses MUST be shown that their inaction and endless political games are jeopardizing the welfare and the lives of many thousands of Pennsylvanians. They MUST understand that what they are doing (or not doing) is destroying the future for good, honest people who only want to live their lives without the fear of financial ruin.
If the Harrisburg lawmakers truly care about the homeowners of this state, they will consider carefully the letters below that clearly show them the REAL faces of the property tax issue and how their procrastination and cowardice towards eliminating school property taxes is affecting the lives of REAL people."
http://www.ptcc.us/stories.htm
"Pa. property tax reform needs stakeholders' support
None of the current property tax proposals tie funding reform to public education expenses reform.
The problems, and the solutions needed, are bigger than the elimination of this onerous tax. Yes, we want to see it eliminated for all the reasons stated above. But we want it done right, with attention to efficiency in how schools are run and with reforms in public pensions that reduce the local burden of covering a $40 billion liability created in large part by bad decisions on the state level.
Fixing the school funding problem begins with property tax reform, but it doesn’t end there. And while we support SB76 as a property tax reform measure, we believe it needs some work in order to gain widespread support and achieve the goal of removing disparities from public education without causing undue harm to the economy.
The momentum for tax reform gets stalled each year as it nears the finish line. Changing that outcome requires bringing stakeholders to the table for a measure that solves these inequities once and for all."
http://www.pottsmerc.com/opinion/20140321/pa-property-tax-reform-needs-stakeholders-support
As promised, here is more.
Reply from DMS lawyer:
"There were two appeals heard on the property you currently own. The first appeal was filed by Mt. Lebanon Township and was heard on August 13, 2013. I represented the township at this hearing. The second appeal was filed by you and was heard on December 17, 2013. I represented the Mt. Lebanon School District at that hearing. You are challenging the results of the second appeal. I do not have authority from the school district to settle appeals filed by owners. If, or when, you file an appeal with the Board of Viewers, it will be handled by the solicitor for the school district. As I have already stated, there is nothing further for me to discuss with you regarding your 2013 assessed value.
I appreciate that you might have a level of frustration with the appeals process; it is fraught with hoops that all of us – property owners and taxing body representatives alike – have to jump through. While it may appear that who I was representing at each of the hearings on your property is a distinction without a difference, that distinction is important in this case. To reiterate, I do not represent Mt. Lebanon Township on owner-filed BPAAR appeals. In the interest of efficiency, I suggest you direct your actions to settle to the school district’s attorneys.
Nancy Carroll"
Response from citizen:
"Ms. Carroll: You know that what you say is not true...you filed an appeal, naming the prior owner but using the sales price basis my wife and i paid...you nonetheless only gave notice to the prior owner who had never moved in and still lives in Eau Clair, Wisconsin....you then attempted to take a "default" against us, which I had set aside on Due Process grounds.....if you say I filed any appeal, show me the appeal, show me what you say i filed, and show me what valuation change i sought (you took this appeal to raise my appraisal, i never challenged the previous assessment)....i remind you that counsel for both the municipality and the school district were consulted by me about this, and the school district lawyer told me that the school district does not appeal residential assessments, the "deal" is that the municipality does that and Phil Weis affirmed that fact,...I have the email chains, if you need to be reminded of the facts....you cannot make things up when there is a record....in fact, the tape of the re-hearing of your appeal will reflect that you did not know who you represented ...you said you did not know and that you represented the municipality or the school district, or both--it was actually comical, you are the one confused.....Your total disregard for Due Process and the obligations of your clients to the public are patent. I hope that when the commissioners read this they will realize what an abusive and mindless process they have unleashed and the unreasonable hands into which they have committed the interests of the community in DMS. I am sure that the school attorneys will also be troubled by your contortions and distortions. You are very arrogant, but the facts are the facts.
I guess the answer to my original question is that you are unwilling to negotiate an assessment appeal, and you will twist any way you have to to avoid fairness and the facts. You should be ashamed of your conduct. The commission must explain how such a situation was created under their supervision and direction. They also now have a clear policy choice and must defend your conduct or do something about it."
I hope the owner referred to in 9:19 AM , if correct, sues the hell out of Nancy Carroll, DMS and perhaps enjoins ML as well.
Mt. Lebanon has negotiated valuation and tax settlements with owners directly in the past, the most notable, fairly recent one being the Galleria based upon negotiations between owner Frank Kass and Commissioner David Humphreys, Esq.. The resulting legal agreements are submitted to Common Pleas Court, are approved (ratified), and bypass formal or BPAAR appeals.
Another one may have been Concordia right after purchase of the Covenant, now under formal appeal.
Notice a local state senator's name in the following editorial!
"To change Pa.'s property-tax system, everyone's voice must be heard
Lebanon Daily News
UPDATED: 02/15/2014 04:05:24 PM EST
We're here to be watchdogs for the communities we serve.
And like a good watchdog, we know when someone is creeping around the house.
In this case, they're creeping around the House and the Senate.
We've made it our mission this year to keep a close eye on property tax reform and the funding formula used by the state to determine how much money is allocated to individual school districts.
Our watchdog role will only take us so far, though.
Once we have the burglar backed up against the wall, the homeowner has to come in and take over.
That's your cue.
As the homeowner, your role is to contact your local legislator and let him or her know, in no uncertain terms, how important property tax reform is to you and your family. Your conversation with your elected official will be to let them know, in no uncertain terms, that if they cannot find a way to make property tax reform a reality, you'll be voting for someone who can.
This is an election year, folks.
The timing is right.
This year all 203 House seats are up for re-election, as well as half (all the even numbered districts) of the state Senate seats.
You can throw in the governor's mansion, too.
We the people of Pennsylvania have been clamoring for property tax reform for decades, but we the people have not banded together to make it a reality.
This is our chance.
We have the attention of our elected officials. Now we need to let them know we're serious about property tax reform.
We have impressive organizations touting the benefits of the Property Tax Independence Act, otherwise known as House Bill 76 and Senate Bill 76, including the Pennsylvania Association of Realtors.
The Property Tax Independence Act will increase the personal income tax from 3.07 to 4.34 percent and increase and widen the state sales tax from 6 percent to 7 percent. The first thing this will do is take the burden of funding public education off the backs of seniors and put it on wage earners, where it belongs.
This bill, unlike others the state legislature has proposed, has been vetted more than a Supreme Court justice candidate.
Unfortunately, the House and Senate versions of the bill are still languishing in their respective finance committees.
This is where we start.
The Senate finance committee is chaired by Mike Brubaker and the vice chair is Scott Hutchinson, with fellow Republican members Joe Scarnati, Pat Browne, John Eichelberger, Stewart Greenleaf and Pat Vance. Democrats on the committee include John Blake, minority chair, Matt Smith, Rob Teplitz and John Wozniak.
The House finance committee is chaired by Kerry Benninghoff, and the vice chair is John Lawrence, with fellow Republican members Eli Evankovich, Stephen Bloom, Gordon Denlinger, George Dunbar, Matt Gabler, Keith Greiner, Seth Grove, Lee James, Fred Keller, Duane Milne, Michael Peifer Kathy Rapp and Brad Roae. Democrats on the committee include Phyllis Mundy, chair, Madeline Dean, vice chair, Tim Briggs, Mary Jo Daley, Margo Davidson, Jordan Harris, Sid Kavulich, William Kortz, Rick Mirabito and Adam Ravenstahl.
So there you have them.
The timing is right. Sic 'em.
DFM Pa. Editorial Board"
http://www.ldnews.com/opinion/ci_25152673/change-pa-s-property-tax-system-everyones-voice
I wonder if Nancy Carroll's son resides on Forest Glen in a home purchased in 2011 that is currently under-assessed and not appealed by the municipality?
Cliff notes on the Commission & Muni:
They contract only with providers who will help them bully and/or lie to residents. Diversified is just the latest.
P.S. ML agreed to fix or freeze the taxable value of the Galleria for 5 years. It was a sweetheart deal for the Galleria - they had threatened to take ML to court if they did not get a lowered assessment. The Galleria also did not receive the TIF they had been offered by ML because the school board would not agree to or approve it. Galleria owner Kass stated in public shortly after the Galleria purchase, in response to a ML offer of a TIF, "I'm not asking for a TIF, but if you want to give me one I'll take it."
ML went to great, actually extreme lengths to get all the ducks in a row to "justify" and qualify the planned renovation costs for TIF subsidy. Kass went ahead with the planned and even additional renovations anyway. There was rumor that a couple of soccer-supporting commissioners had been negotiating behind the scenes with Kass to have Kass donate some of his excess land behind and to the West of the Galleria building integral parking lot for a soccer field if a TIF was arranged - a rumor mind you, but it could possibly have been connected to as an extension of a very nearby ML public park ?
Ohhh, certainly not beyond belief of the scheming ways of Lebo athletic supporters. That's for sure !
P.P.S. The 2 commissioners rumored to be scheming with the Galleria owner about land for a soccer field were also the ones behind the purchase of McNeilly for fields.
Quote of the Day from the Los Angeles Times:
"Frankly, I don't know what it is about California, but we seem to have a strange urge to elect really obnoxious women to high office. I'm not bragging, you understand, but no other state, including Maine, even comes close. When it comes to sending left-wing dingbats to Washington, we're Number One. There's no getting around the fact that the last time anyone saw the likes of Barbara Boxer, Dianne Feinstein, Maxine Waters, and Nancy Pelosi, they were stirring a cauldron when the curtain went up on 'Macbeth'. The four of them are like jackasses who happen to possess the gift of blab. You don't know if you should condemn them for their stupidity or simply marvel at their ability to form words."
Columnist Burt Prelutsky,
Los Angeles Times
We certainly see it with our Commission President.
Elaine
The April 8, 2014 Commission Meeting video has been uploaded to the municipal website here.
Elaine
Crazy idea....playing off what the Commissioners stated.
Shouldn't Lebo just sue (appeal) EVERY property in the township so that it is fair for every homeowner? Then it would be fair.
And let me say...listening to the conversation...the process that Diversified is following is exactly what happened to me in 2005. This is the process. I suspect the Commissioners knew this. If they didn't understand the process before implementing it then they are just plain dumb. This is their job.
The "newcomers" should be renamed as the "freeloaders".
Simple as that.
Those of us (including Matt) who were assessed either above market value or AT market value are screwed. Do you think we saved up all our pennies to deal with a 30-50% increase in taxes due to being reassessed? Of course not, we dealt with it. Most of us didn't think in a million years the assessment system would be so skewed in favor of homes above the median price level. Many of us have had to cut down on a lot of things. My taxes increased by about $200 a month. That's not chump change to someone who lives in a less than median priced home. If you do your part perhaps the millage reduction results in a $20 reduction to my taxes per month...maybe.
Matt surely appealed but I (having talked to literally dozens of overassessed property owners) have never heard of a successful appeal by a property owner.
So yes, "freeloaders", I expect you to deal with it the same way the rest of us did who were properly or overly assessed. If you do, then the overall millage should go down and positively impact the rest of the town.
It happened to me in 2002. This is nothing new. And undeveloped land is always assessed extremely low. The assessment skyrockets after the land is developed.
1:06 are you talking about Matt Wilson who stated his home was assessed at 120% of his sales price from 2005 - 9 years ago?? Sales price of 9 years DOES NOT EQUAL MARKET VALUE unless you think it will only sell today for that much. I am so tired of people who have owned homes for years thinking they are assessed fairly because their assessment is near what they paid years ago. We are all fortunate that in Mt Lebanon most homes appreciate every year and at a higher level than other communities. I am sorry you were burned in the reassessment but I am not a freeloader just because I happened to purchase a home with a low assessed value that was then challenged. My payment went up $700 a month. We are not the villains here. We are all for paying our fair share.
The citizen presses for the facts:
Ms. Carroll: After being quick to accuse me of filing an appeal that I did not file, I note that you are slow (or more accurately, unable) to produce the "appeal" that I never filed and you made up. This is a serious ethical problem for you and the commission. I trust the commissioners are considering this.
Further, while examining the facts and the accuracy of what you say, would you please respond the the following comment from another citizen of Mt. Lebanon as I would be very interested in your answer:
"Mt. Lebanon has negotiated valuation and tax settlements with owners directly in the past, the most notable, fairly recent one being the Galleria based upon negotiations between owner Frank Kass and Commissioner David Humphreys, Esq.. The resulting legal agreements are submitted to Common Pleas Court, are approved (ratified), and bypass formal or BPAAR appeals.
Another one may have been Concordia right after purchase of the Covenant, now under formal appeal."
Thank you.
Welcome to Mt. Lebanon, 1:26 PM. The residents who wanted to cap the high school renovation were called fear mongers, anti sports, anti kids, etc. That is how we operate here. If you challenge anything, you are labeled.
I have been challenging the turf project and what am I labeled? The crazy fat lady, disingenuous, and a wing nut.
I am so happy that the newcomers are exposing how incestuous Mt.Lebanon has become.
Elaine
Dear 1:06pm
it is a curious logic that concludes that those who pay the most, and highest effective rate, are the "freeloaders"
such rationalization demonstrates how little fairness or equity have to do with it, this is all about getting money for those the commission thinks are less likely to be able to defend themselves and are few enough in number to take on politically
it remains to be seen how politically isolated which side may be on this important issue
this is 1:38--i meant to say a way for the commission to GET money from the most vulnerable...it pays to proofread (oh well)
Are you suggesting that real estate tax should be regressing? That if you own a $300,000 house and I own a $150,000 house that we should pay the same amount?
Of course not. We should pay the same rate.
Suck it up and do what many of us have already done which is to pay the crazy tax bill.
If you are like me you will get the hell out of here as soon as the kids are done with school (if not before).
That's the boat these taxes have put my family in. We may not be able to wait until the kids are out of school. It may be sooner than that when we decide to escape with whats left of our modest pocketbook.
Please don't think for a second that people like me have sympathy for someone who thinks they are being unfairly treated for being asked to pay tax on what they paid for their home.
When you bought the home did you realize that your assessed value was supposed to be close to your market value? If not, buy a dictionary.
Yep, lets bicker amongst ourselves, calling one or another freeloaders, jealous that this property or that is paying too little or too much while the politicians and teachers unions sit back and laugh their way to the bank.
One more example of "Lets you and him fight."
In 2002, the county spent millions of dollars reassessing properties to make valuations equitable. Then it and residents spent years and more millions trying to rectify the errors.
In 2013 once again by court order new reassessessments were put in place at a cost of millions and millions. Then apppeals were and are being heard at a cost of millions and millions more.
I'm guesstimating at least $100 million has been spent in total since 20026 by all parties attempting to make this process fair.
It still isn't and by all indications the nonsense going on here in MTL won't make it any more equitable.
A lot of lawyers and government employees, politicians and their hired guns are enjoying this charade though.
Suggested reading— 9:17's & 9:57's posts. Your neighbor and the value of their property isn't the problem!
The citizen replies to DMS:
Mr. Gambino: Thank you for your message. Let me point out the problem as I see it. First, Ms. Carroll has said that I filed an assessment appeal--this is false, she has the obligation to back-up what she says (I can't prove a negative)--if she claims to have an appeal that I signed and filed, she must produce it, now, or retract her false statement. Second, I have asked questions that Ms. Carroll has not answered (for example, what is the assessment benchmark? on what basis is she willing to negotiate assessment appeals? has DMS negotiated with other property owners regardless of the procedural status of the assessment?, all the email thread). Finally, Ms. Carroll, on behalf of your company and Mt. Lebanon municipality has filed an appeal on my property - she IS the "proper person." It is time to come clean with straight talk and facts.
I do have one new question for you as an "appropriate person" -- what do you mean by "people like him [me]"? Are you offended that I defend myself and my family against your own lack of fairness and reasonableness? I guess you hit the "send" button before thinking about the addressees on your last email. I trust that you realize that the commissioners and the whole community is watching your behavior.
Thank you for your consideration.
out of the weeds they continue to crawl: here is Mr. Gambino's nasty game playing behind the scenes:
Commissioners: Here (see below) is how your DMS agents respond to your citizens. Do you see any respect, civility, or responsibility in their arrogance? Mr. Gambino clearly intended to send this to Ms. Carroll, but carelessly sent it to me instead. I submit it for your consideration.
Respectfully. Citizen
From: Dominick Gambino
Subject: Re: Municipal Tax Assessment Appeal
Date: Thu 04/10/14 02:43 PM
He can't stand that you won't react. That's the best weapon against folks like him
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 10, 2014, at 1:31 PM, [citizen] wrote:
Ms. Carroll: After being quick to accuse me of filing an appeal that I did not file, I note that you are slow (or more accurately, unable) to produce the "appeal" that I never filed and you made up. This is a serious ethical problem for you and the commission. I trust the commissioners are considering this.
Further, while examining the facts and the accuracy of what you say, would you please respond the the following comment from another citizen of Mt. Lebanon as I would be very interested in your answer:
"Mt. Lebanon has negotiated valuation and tax settlements with owners directly in the past, the most notable, fairly recent one being the Galleria based upon negotiations between owner Frank Kass and Commissioner David Humphreys, Esq.. The resulting legal agreements are submitted to Common Pleas Court, are approved (ratified), and bypass formal or BPAAR appeals.
Another one may have been Concordia right after purchase of the Covenant, now under formal appeal."
Thank you.
Read this quote from 9:57 A M,
"The Property Tax Independence Act will increase the personal income tax from 3.07 to 4.34 percent and increase and widen the state sales tax from 6 percent to 7 percent. The first thing this will do is take the burden of funding public education off the backs of seniors and put it on wage earners, where it belongs."
His suggestion for tax fairness is to have rising sales taxes, rising income taxes, and rising millage taxes. Can anyone tell me how this solution helps the kids. I know how it helps to boost union pay, healthcare and pensions.
Who is Matt Smith working for? There are more residents who vote than union members.
In response to 3:10PM:
I didn't make the earlier comment, but I don't think they were suggesting a regressive tax arrangement. I think the point they were making is that when 2013 homebuyers get assessed to their purchase price (or the 2011 and 2012 homeowners), such homebuyers are going to be paying a higher share of taxes than most in Mt. Lebanon because the average assessed value to fair market value ratio is around 75-80%.
Regarding the "freeloader" tag, this is can be a matter of perspective and not really productive. When 2013 homebuyers get assessed to full purchase price, you could be considered a "freeloader" in their eyes since you are very unlikely to be assessed at what your house would sell for today or six months ago. The fact that your taxes were raised when the county reassessed means you were "freeloading" all of those years prior to reassessment in the eyes of those who were already assessed close to full market value.
The goal should be uniformity. Whether that means everyone is assessed close to fair market value or close to some ratio, like the 80% average for Mt. Lebanon currently. The municipality's current plan isn't going to do this and doesn't have the resources to do this.
I have strong doubts that municipality's plan will result in a reduction in millage as you seem to hope. The current, arbitrary plan addressed 447 properties, which is a very small percentage of homes in Mt. Lebanon. Have you received assurances that will happen? Will the anti-windfall provisions force them to reduce the millage? Again, I have my doubts. From my view, you seem to be of the "misery loves company" mindset.
On 25 March 2014 I sent a long letter to all Commissioners outlining why the current system of property taxes is outmoded and fictitious. Since I've made that case on this Blog many times, and in other more national forums since 2011, I won't repeat them here.
However, here is a portion of my letter:
"Now you may, individually, decide that I may be on to something, but protest that this body does not have any power to eliminate taxing real private property. That may be true. But what you could do is to make a public declaration that the current property tax system in this Commonwealth is outmoded and should be replaced. You could contact Mr. Miller and Mr. Smith and urge them to support the elimination of the personal property tax. Those would be steps in the right direction."
Of course our commissioners did not publicly announce that the current property tax system is outmoded and should be replaced. They protest that their objective is to make the system "fair."
It simply cannot be done.
As long as one holds to the fiction that a piece of non-productive land "owes" the local government X amount of dollars per year - an amount paid out of the NET income of its owner(s) but bearing no relation to that income - the lunacy will continue apace, and no amount of Commission meetings with aggrieved citizens will solve the problem.
For context purposes, Lebo residential property sales range from 500 - 650 properties per year, and in 2013 were about 550 or so. While a small percentage of the total number of Lebo residential properties in place, even just owner occupied, the property appeals seem to represent a fairly high percentage of residential properties actually sold. Anyone have actuals ?
From: Dominick Gambino
Subject: Re: Municipal Tax Assessment Appeal
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2014 15:54:30 -0400
I know you were copied I have absolutely no problem that you were copied and you will not receive another response from diversified on your appeal matter because at this point we are not engaged to deal with your appeal. I have been copied on all if your previous correspondences to nancy and others and find them to be filled with accusations in what I would consider an overly aggressive style including referring to nancy as a liar. You also were verbally aggressive to her at the hearing. Those hearings are taped. She explained the circumstances involved with the travel of your appeal through the process. Again there will be no more response to your queries and accusations from this firm at this time. You had the ability to appeal to the board of viewers. Your due process was not compromised. Maybe you will find that level if appeal more to your liking.
Sent from my iPhone
Mr. Gambino: I am amazed by your lack of responsiveness. Ms. Carroll said I filed the appeal in question, it is a fact I did not; she can resolve the controversy by producing an assessment appeal form, if she can. She made the charge, do I have to allow her to assert that I did something I did not or be called names by you? Produce the document or your company must withdraw the false accusation made by Ms. Carroll. You cannot play word games in lieu of taking responsibility for serious misstatements by your staff. What is "overly aggressive" is your company saying things it cannot back up. So, consider this a formal demand for a retraction.
You also seem to miss the point that your client says you have been directed to do what you now refuse to do: negotiate.
I thank you for your consideration.
3:35 pm, in response:
http://www.ptcc.us/solution.htm
- The Property Tax Independence Act will ABOLISH the school property tax on all homesteads, farmsteads, and businesses.
- School property tax elimination will be accomplished via a two year phase-out of school property taxes. In the first year after enactment, school property taxes will be frozen at their current level; in the second year they will be completely eliminated except for a small portion that will be retained in each school district to retire the individual district’s outstanding long-term debt, typically 10% of the original school tax bill.
- The Property Tax Independence Act utilizes our current sales tax mechanism to fund schools, restoring the original intent of the tax. The “The PA Education Sales Tax” was enacted in 1953 for this specific purpose and virtually 100% of the revenue from the sales tax is still dedicated to education funding.
- The sales tax provides a predictable and stable funding source that automatically increases revenue in sync with economic growth. This is in clear contrast to the school property tax which is not based on economic growth and is subject to much variation, forcing annual increases in the tax to increase revenue.
- The sales tax is also the most desirable revenue source because, unlike the property tax that has no relationship to family income, it is directly tied to a person’s ability to pay.
- The Property Tax Independence Act moderately broadens the base of the state sales tax to include more services and purchases at a new 7% rate. While there are those who might object on an instinctive level to a sales tax on the last two items mentioned, consider this: If you spend eight thousand dollars annually on individual items of clothing over $50 and non-WIC food purchases combined, the total sales tax would be $560. If this is less than your school property tax bill you still will realize a substantial reduction in your overall tax burden.
- While the sales tax is The Property Tax Independence Act’s primary revenue source, small increases in other taxes are blended into the total to spread the cost of education over the broadest possible base. As part of the funding mechanism, the Property Tax Independence Act finance package also includes a modest increase in the state income tax from the current 3.07% to 4.34%.
To decrease the total revenue needed for property tax elimination, at enactment of The Property Tax Independence Act existing long-term debt will remain with each school district for them to service individually. Because of this a remnant of property tax will remain past the two year elimination phase-in but ONLY the amount of property tax necessary to meet current annual debt service that was on the books as of December 31, 2012. When that existing debt is retired the final bit of property tax will disappear and no further property taxes will be allowed.
On enactment of The Property Tax Independence Act each school district will be required to state the amount of property tax necessary for annual debt service and will not be allowed to increase that amount or add any new debt financed by property taxes.
Note that none of these funding sources are particularly burdensome by themselves but, taken together, provide the funds necessary to replace all Pennsylvania local school taxes. Further, The Property Tax Independence Act will more equally distribute the cost of school funding across all of Pennsylvania’s population and visitors to the state, rather than just depending on taxing homeowners."
PLUS, THE COUNTY DOESN'T SPEND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS CONDUCTING REASSESSMENTS/APPEAL HEARINGS WHICH DO NOT CONTRIBUTE ONE DIME TO EDUCATING KIDS!
http://realreform76.com/myths-vs-facts/
MYTHS vs FACTS [Senate Bill 76]
"IMPORTANT FACT
If your school property tax is $3,500/year and is completely eliminated by HB/SB 76, you would have to spend $50,000 annually on newly-taxed products and services to equal the amount of property tax eliminated."
http://www.ptcc.us/solution.htm
3:10 PM - what is people like you mean?
It sounds to me like you are upset about your taxes just like the rest of us. I can't understand why you think we are freeloaders if I am paying on 100% of my homes market value. I would love to be CLOSE to my sales price and I would be ok with that. I am paying more than lots of folks who have lived here 20 years or more in similar houses. I don't think I should pay the same as someone in a less expensive house. I think I should pay the same as someone in a comparable house in my neighborhood.
Also, Elaine posted a list recently of home who did appeal their reassessment and were able to get their value down by $50K or more. So, yes you can lower your assessment through appeal (just not if you have a recent sales price.)
Correction @ 4:26.
Should read PLUS, THE COUNTY SPENDS MILLIONS OF DOLLARS CONDUCTING REASSESSMENTS/APPEAL HEARINGS (our commissioners are spending too) WHICH DO NOT CONTRIBUTE ONE DIME TO EDUCATING KIDS!
Millions and millions of dollars and no roads get paved, no teachers get hired, no classrooms get built, no flooding alleviated, no ballfields fixed. It all goes towards deciding what somebody's house is worth!!!
Then after all that money is spent, we get down to actually taxing the property through millage rates.
Absurd!
3:10 I am curious, do you think your assessed value is too high? Or are you just unhappy that is now assessed close to its true market value? If it's the latter, you are no different than the newcomers.
unless we are all assessed on the same basis, the structure is unfair and someone is being taken advantage of
the question of the appropriate level of public spending is a separate issue, and we should all be able to agree on equal treatment on assessment regardless of what level of program expenditure we should budget
The bottom line coming out of the Monday night commission meeting is that they won't negotiate and have no respect for the taxpayer. This sweeps across DMS and the commissioners. They speak of respect, but they offer none.
4:57- In regard to the list Elaine posted, I would not be so sure that all of these homeowners appealed their assessments to get the reduction. I personally know of 2 homes on that list that received the reduction through the last countywide reassessment not because they appealed.
5:58, we've now experienced two very costly reassessments, neither achieved the equality advertised.
If they did we wouldn't see the hufe numver of appeals.
The ver fact that the commissioners choose to spend money going after newcomers is proof that the values set by the county have little connection to real market values.
Public spending of millions of dollars setting unreal values is a pertinent issue to this discussion.
If you're referring to school district or municipal millage rates or spending, yes that is indeed a seperate topic, but if all the money spent on assessing property were instead put into education, infrastructure we'd be better off.
Challenging the assessments of recently sold homes has little to do with fairness.
You will hear it claimed that your fair share of property taxes is determined by your property’s market value. This claim is false. Your fair share is actually determined by how your property’s market value relates to everyone else’s.
Therefore, if most of the community is assessed at 2010–11 market values, but the municipality has your home’s assessment raised to 2013 market values, you will be forced to pay more than your fair share. Market values have gone up around 10–15% in the last few years, so that’s about what you’ll overpay.
To be clear: Forcing new Mt. Lebanon homeowners to pay taxes on recent market values is not asking them to pay their fair share. It’s forcing them to overpay.
That it’s being done in the name of “fairness” suggests that our elected representatives have been misled and don’t understand the implications of what they’re doing.
Tom, the Commission super majority know precisely what they are doing. They have not been misled and do understand the implications of what they are doing, and know that they can and will get away with it. They are the liberal progressive tax and spend majority. They know that the state legislature and judicial systems are completely impotent in this statewide assessment fiasco and will not support and may even oppose any efforts to overall the system by the citizenry.
Why not appeal the newcomer's properties to 85% of market value and make the system more fair?
Does the municipality or the school district need more assessed value to pay the bills or borrow more money?
The district is about $900,000 away from their budgeted change order limit and only 71% of the project is finished. They still want a turfed field house on the rock pile, a remodeling of the middle schools and the closing of a central school building. This all costs money. Welcome to spendthrift Lebo.
I can't believe it.
The system is broken, it isn't equitable and people will be happy if we patch this and overlook that.
OK, we assess the newcomers at the 'lets pull a number out of the hat-- 85%', then what about the newcomers the municipality igmored because they were assessed at $49,999 or less and not $50,000?
How about the McMansion that is assessed at 50% of its 2004 purchase price?
Unbelievable!
I don't get this 85% number.
If you go that route then you must then assess ALL properties in Mt. Lebanon at 85% of market value resulting in the EXACT same tax payment that you would get simply by being put at market value.
I have been the one that has called for the newcomers to be relabeled the freeloaders.
The comeback to me being taxed at market value (I bought my home in the last five years and have been assessed right at what I bought my home) is that I should sell my house because it has clearly appreciated since I bought it.
Of course it has. But, my actual dollar difference of perhaps $20,000 absolutely PALES in comparison to what the difference is for what the Freeloaders are asking for. What is the minimum difference required for an appeal by the municipality? Isn't it something like $50,000? My paltry $20,000 gain is nothing compared to the hundreds of thousands that are being left on the table by the freeloaders.
One final point as over 100 comments starts to lose people.
I have talked to a handful of realtors and they have all said that they have been trained in Mt. Lebanon to tell you that you could have been reassessed at market value. If yours didn't have this conversation with you, perhaps its time you had a conversation with them now.
3:10 Um...maybe YOU should open that dictionary. And then look up the word "parochial".
My hunch is you have lived in Allegheny County all of your life and are not aware that assessments work differently (and much better) in other states. We moved here from another state where the assessment process works. Typically ALL houses moves and up and down with the market. The only huge jump is for tear downs...when a smaller house is torn down and replaced with a much larger one...or for additions. For major tax increases across the board, this is voted on by the voters.
The idea that you would buy a house and have your taxes jump 50% versus what your realtor said you would pay is just not expected. This happens in PA and just a few other states. If you haven't experienced it before, you wouldn't know. And trust me, the realtors will not tell you about it.
This is not about newcomers not wanting to pay their fair share of taxes. This is about everyone paying their fair share. The problem in Lebo isn't the newcomers, it is the elected officials (school board, commissioners) can't live within their means. Your venom is misplaced.
9:15 AM, I hate to disagree without sounding disagreeable, but this thread is very much alive at over 100 comments. Remember the story about The Devil's Advocate? 236 comments.
This isn't going away.
Elaine
To 9:15:
This has been explained several times in the comments. Here it goes again. 85% is being mentioned because that is close to the average percentage of assessed value to fair market value in Mt. Lebanon (data indicates actual average is probably 75-80%). Being assessed at full sales price from 2013 is pretty much 100% of current fair market value. If you are taxed at 100% when the average in the town in 80%, most rational people would agree that is not fair. I agree with you that, as far as Mt. Lebanon/School taxes are concerned, there is not much of a difference between everyone being taxed close to 85% or 100%. The key is everyone being close to some percentage. Mt. Lebanon's current strategy is not going to achieve this. Appealing 5-7% of the houses in Mt. Lebanon is not going to push the average from 80% to 95%.
I don't recall anyone saying you should sell your house, but maybe I missed it. You say your are taxed at market value for a house you bought 5 years ago (you said in the last 5 years, but I took that to mean about 5 years ago). But, absent unusual circumstances, you are not taxed at market value since you said your are assessed at what you bought it for five years ago. You seem to understand this as you agree that your house has appreciated. If you bought your house for 200K five years ago, there is a decent chance it has appreciated to around 230K. If this house is assessed at what it was bought for, the ratio of assessed value to fair market value is almost 85%. Now do you see why the 85% number was mentioned?
By your own definition, you are a freeloader since your house has appreciated. You seem to be ok with your house being under-assessed by 20K but maybe the newcomers just want to be under-assessed the same percentage as you.
Newcomers: I would enlist the services of a PhD level statistician.
11:18 you are so off base.
Do a little research and see that homes under $200k are on average OVERASSESSED -at more like 115% of market value.
The reason you come up with the skewed number is because homes like yours (over $215k) were UNDER assessed.
You are sticking it to the working class living in homes that are not on Hoodridge or in the Manor.
Look at the chart here that is compares recent sales price to assessed values.
http://bloglebo.blogspot.com/2012/02/reality-checking-reassessments.html
Those at the lower end are farther below the diagonal line meaning they were assessed at GREATER than market value.
Those at the higher end are above the diagonal line meaning that, on average, homes in the upper range were assessed at less than market value.
See that glut of homes under $200k that is below the diagonal line? One of those dots is me.
See the glut of home above $200k that are on top of the diagonal line? One of those dots is you.
Geez, just plug this into your browser and read all the articles that were done when the county did the reassessment.
http://bloglebo.blogspot.com/search/label/reassessments
After you read those articles come back and cry to me about how you are so unfairly singled out when almost every homeowner with a house under $200k got screwed in the reassessment process. We all appealed and lost. You will, and should, have the same fate. We don't have the money to hire expensive lawyers to fight our battles. Maybe you do. But even those in my group that did have attorneys represent them in the appeals process lost. Again, I don't know of a single Mt. Lebanon homeowner that won their appeal. I know commercial owners that did, but no homeowners.
To 12:50:
I'm sorry you are having trouble following what I said. I am not sure I can make it any more clear.
First, you are arguing against a straw man. I am well aware of the assessment data and agree that it's unfair that those under 200K were assessed close to 100% FMV and those above 200K were not. Mt. Lebanon's plan is not going to fix that since the current plan only address 5-7% of homes. Tom Moertel authored the articles you linked to and states a few comments above that Mt. Lebanon's plan is not about fairness. I brought up the example of the house purchased five years ago for 200K and presently assessed at 200K to try to explain why the example house is probably only assessed at 85-87% of present FMV. I never made any arguments about the county assessment data for Mt. Lebanon. Homes under 200K were generally screwed by the county reassessment. I fully support correcting this inequity. Punishing a small percentage of the community won't correct it.
Second, some of your comments appear to be disingenuous. I don't think almost every homeowner with a house under 200K got screwed. Most? Sure, but not almost every one. I owned a house in Mt. Lebanon assessed below 200K during the reassessment and sold below 200K after the reassessment. I did not get screwed by the reassessment. In fact, my taxes actually went down because I was already assessed close to my FMV so my assessment only went up a few percent (if your assessment went up by less than 30%, you likely received a tax decrease). So if your taxes went up after the reassessment, that means I was carrying your "freeloading" butt for the 5 years I owned my house prior to the reassessment.
You say that all of the ones under 200K appealed and lost. "Lost" meaning no reduction at all? I doubt that.
It's unclear whether you are the same person I replied to earlier. If you are, then your house is not below the diagonal line in the chart you referenced since you already mentioned that your house is assessed at what you paid for it five years ago. That would mean you are on the line or above it since your home would have appreciated relative the 2010/2011 sales figures in the y column.
If you are angry about your taxes and want others to feel the hammer regardless of fairness, just say so. At least I can understand that and it won't require any more back and forth.
Bitter and just doesn't get it because he/she doesn't want to. Not all of us newcomers have homes over $200K and not all of us live on Hoodridge or in the Manor. I actually live in a high rental area. And not everyone lost on appeal during the reassessment nor is every house under $200K over assessed. And real estate agents are not telling people this. Not at all. I don't care if you spoke to a few -- you most certainly did not speak to all of them. Then again, maybe you did since you seem to be an authority where "all", "everyone", "no one" are concerned. I tend to ignore people that speak in extremes such as this so this is my last post on this thread.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m2Wq_6GavIc
Just because my home is worth more than $215K doesn't mean I have hundreds of extra dollars a month laying around waiting for a tax increase. We have a budget like most people. $20,000 decrease in our assessed value would be wonderful. I would love to be under assessed like you by that much. We are all in this together. Stop the name calling.
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