The bids for the swimming pool, which included architect and engineering costs, came back high by several hundred thousand dollars.
The golf course bid has come back so high that they may be reducing the scope of work and re-bid the project.
Brafferton Field came back higher than estimated, so they may bid the project two ways: one as currently designed with a larger field and one with a smaller field.
How many people will be asking the commissioners to turf a field now? What will the Sports Advisory Board think about this? What happens to the unassigned funds - still going to the School District?
This and more will be discussed at Tuesday's Commission Discussion Session.
Update August 10, 2013 12:18 PM The agendas for the Commission Discussion Session and the Commission meeting have been posted. Plans for the golf course improvements are going to be scrapped, revised and rebid. Looks like the pool will be getting every conceivable upgrade possible. This is from the agenda:
Also on the agenda is to approve the 25 car parking lot for Brafferton, even though the bids came back higher than estimated. The field may need work and has no approved bid, but at least it will have a nice parking lot.
This and more will be discussed at Tuesday's Commission Discussion Session.
Update August 10, 2013 12:18 PM The agendas for the Commission Discussion Session and the Commission meeting have been posted. Plans for the golf course improvements are going to be scrapped, revised and rebid. Looks like the pool will be getting every conceivable upgrade possible. This is from the agenda:
Renovations to the swimming facilities includes pool recirculation, filtration, zero depth swimming pool addition, deck equipment, gutter system, pool heater, epoxy pool coating, surface drainage and concrete decking. The project has 13 alternate bids including a recreation storage building addition, east deck retaining wall, subsurface drainage system, removal of earth mounding at west side of bathhouse, splash pad assembly, water slide assembly, climbing wall assembly, deep water well slide assembly, aquatic features for zero depth entry pool, spectator bleachers, video surveillance system, drive/pedestrian walkway (options A and B) and site gas line.
Also on the agenda is to approve the 25 car parking lot for Brafferton, even though the bids came back higher than estimated. The field may need work and has no approved bid, but at least it will have a nice parking lot.
90 comments:
Isn't it funny, how a surplus can vaporize in the wink of an eye!
Hmmm, seems Mr. Franklin will need to round up some more well-heeled donors for his school district turfed field ooooooooorrrrrrr.... stack the school board with pro turferd willing to vote that the district turfs their own field.
What was, Mr Hill withdrew from the SB race and the Ds are free to appoimt a replacement. Hmmmmmmm
I think Mr. Hill is smart enough to see the cuts coming and decided to let those who made the problems decide how to fix them. Who wants to cut staff, buildings and programs? Imagine the retribution toward your family when the teachers find out what isn't coming to Mt. Lebanon.
Let's try to keep this about parks and recreation. Thanks.
Elaine
Why don't they just float more bonds. It's not like they need to pay them back... oh wait... they do.
Jack, They could act like Detroit and make the pension payments with the bond money.
well, maybe we can avoid the imprudent and unsafe "climbing wall" at the pool on the face-saving grounds that it is just too expensive----whatever it takes to get to the right result
They could always look for some rich alum who can afford to donate a lot of money in exchange for a field with his name on it...
or....
they could ask the taxpayers in a binding referendum ballot (which should have been done in the first place).
Or......
They could return the money to the taxpayers (my preference)
Or .....
They could fix the roads and sidewalks.
Or they could put some fertilizer on the golf course fairways that look like the mud slide at Coolspring Driving Range. Fairways are supposed to be grass.
Maybe we should turf the golf course so we don't get more mud. See what a turfed golf course looks like here:
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/golf-devil-ball-golf/video-dave-pelz-backyard-better-yours-everyone-190026013--golf.html
Maybe the Aqua Club and men's & women's golf groups will each donate a hundred thou or so towards the facilities they use and rely upon - and then the deadbeat field sports jocks will stonewall and hyperventilate as usual and Brafferton will become a permanent monument to their trickery, chicanery and deceit.
What are the alternate deletes for each project, and would they, if imposed, bring each project to or under budget ?
Elaine,
Never underestimate the influence of the sports groups.
The first point is, whoever did the estimates (should have been our engineering firm) should re-evaluate how they come to their numbers.
The second point is that my guess is the sports groups will ask their friend on the commission to ignore any other project and just invest the money on turf since it is a "known" project.
We've seen how this goes down many times before.
Here's wishing the commissioners some balls to say no.
Better do an update, Elaine !
The Com mission agenda for Tuesday shows that the overbudget pool, bid at $3,953,900 v. $3,300,000 budget is being recommended for contract awards, plural because it was bid multiple prime v. single prime. The $3,953,900 includes $396,900 of add alternate enhancements, $367,000 of which are add-on's for the pool ! !
There is no indication where the extra money will come from, but it will likely be primarily taken from the golf course and Brafferton field portions of the bond issue, and perhaps some from the 2012 general fund surplus of $829,000.
The discussion and vote on this will be one for the record.
Does anyone remember this news article from the Trib?
Mt. Lebanon weighs surplus spending
By Matthew Santoni
412-380-5625
Staff Reporter
Published: Wednesday, June 26, 2013, 9:00 p.m.
Updated: Thursday, June 27, 2013
Mt. Lebanon commissioners are considering how to spend an $829,000 surplus from last year's budget, just as representatives of sports groups have asked for upgrades to playing fields.
"Commissioners John Bendel, Dave Brumfield and Kristen Linfante — a majority of the five-member panel — later voiced support for putting some of the money toward the advisory board's recommendations, though Kelly Fraasch and Matt Kluck had reservations about doing so without a clear plan for the improvements."
Am I the only one that thinks the only two commissioners with any sense on the commission are Kluck and Fraasch?
They had reservations about spending the $829,000 without a plan. I bet part of their plan would be knowing for sure how much they have to spend and knowing exactly how things will cost. Only then prioritizing which demand immediate attention, which ones would be nice to do, and those thingd that can absolutely wait for another day.
The three free spending democrats on the other hand are ready to spend, spend, spend because they can always tax, tax, tax.
As a side note... Mr. Franklin keeps asking why everyone targets him when it comes to discussing turf.
He didn't seem to mind being interviewed like he was the SAB spokesperson in the paper!
Hey Mr. Franklin, are you familar with this quote- "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." - Harry S. Truman
If you attended the meeting, you would know that I was not interviewed, but instead the quotes in the paper came directly from the citizen comments portion of the meeting. Perhaps you should come into the kitchen.
Dave Franklin
Or that article may have followed the discussion session, in which case three members of the SAB spoke to the Commissioon, including the representative of Men's tennis, women's golf and myself. Incidentally, both of those non-field sports groups support the turf recommendation.
Dave Franklin
I updated this post to include the agendas for Tuesday's commission meetings. I also added a photo of the pool improvements which goes along with the high school renovation.
Elaine
So all the money is going to the bottom of the Mt. Lebanon Pool. It just isn't enough that we have an eight-lane High School pool. We have to put money into pool number two while the roads and sidewalks rot and the Golf Course has mud slides for fairways.
And somebody thinks there are brains on the commission. No brains, just jocks and moms.
Damn, I like it! Sure hope the completed pool product looks as good as the arhitect's rendering! Snicker, snicker
1:22 PM, there are brains on the commission, just not enough to make a difference.
The pool is Feller's and Donnellan's baby. But as 11:31 AM wrote, the commission doesn't have the you know what to say no.
Kristen expressed at the budget retreat that the commission cut improvements to the golf course. By saying no to a tractor and reducing the scope of the golf course improvements, it looks like she is getting her wish.
Elaine
Elaine, your selective memory strikes again. Let's not forget that our own golf professional commissioner has rejected the golf course improvements out of hand ever since they were raised. Not because of the cost, but because he did not think re-grading two holes was a necessary expense at this golf course. Wouldn't any commissioner be wise to follow the lead of someone with Matt's knowledge and experience?
Also, I do not think Matt would be surprised that the bids for the regrading work came in as high as they did. Anyone in the business can appreciate the significant cost involved with regrading two holes in our part of the country.
Personally, I think the golf course needs some work, but regrading two holes at this point in its lifespan is a waste of money.
Dave Franklin
Dave Franklin,
What work would you do at the golf course?
John Ewing
The sand traps and tee boxes are in dire need of work. I'm sure the irrigation (sprinkler) system is about due for an overhaul. Let's face it, the one thing that will drive business away, is the condition of the golf course. If it's in bad shape, people will go elsewhere. Living in western Pennsylvania, golfers are used to holes that are uphill, downhill or sidehill. It is senseless to try and regrade two holes hen it will not bring in one additional golfer. Also, the women's golf association has suggested the need for a pavilion style structure to host events. Lastly, If we are serious about generating revenue at this facility, we should seriously consider food and beverage sales like most golf courses in our area.
Dave Franklin
But of course, all this after turfing Mellon.
Elaine
Last I checked Elaine, there is $500,000 of bond money earmarked for the golf course and ready to be spent long before any turf goes in anywhere.
Dave Franklin
Mr. Franklin, has several good comments/suggestions to consider at some point for the golf course.
One missing factor in talking about the pool, the golf course and a turfed field.
To use the pool one buys a pass, maybe a hot dog, soda or ice tea.
To play nine holes of golf one pays a greens fee and maybe a cart, a sleeve of balls, or a new glove.
While the above may or may not make a profit, some of their initial cost are underwritten by user fees.
Aside from registration fees paid to participate in a turf field sport - which may or may not find their way back to the municipality, is there any other income. Wildcat does have the snack bar, would Mellon have one? Would this take customers away from the Washiington Rd eateries if it did?
3:26 you are implying that the municipality receives the funds from the concession stand at Wildcat.
Dave Franklin,
I see some areas of agreement between us on the golf course. The sand traps have been a long-standing disgrace. It would be nice if they would fill them with sand now and then so we would not be hitting hard ground just underneath the shallow layer of sand.
Unfortunately, hole number five was not reconstructed properly the first time around so it is on the list for repair of a repair. With the list of needs we have in Mount Lebanon for other needs I would prefer to replace a Lebo “Leader” before we reconstruct hole five. Hole number four needs work. I suggest it needs repaired from approximately yard marker 100 to yard market 300.
The tee boxes do need upgraded, but is that need really dire? I would appreciate your thoughts on that.
The sprinkler system needs to be maintained and the currently muddy fairways need to be remediated promptly or we will be missing a fair number of golfers, and a return on our investment. The Golf Course generated over $75,000 in profit last year.
Food and beverage sales could bring in additional revenue but a new Club House was suggested years ago but discussion has been lacking.
I am also disappointed in the reported treatment of the representative from the Women’s Golf Association by members of the SAB. If the reports are true, it reinforces a negative opinion of the sports representatives in our town. Perhaps you can speak to your friends about reconsidering her point of view.
John Ewing
No, the only thing I know for sure is a snack bar exist at Wildcat.
I think I heard volunteers helped with the construction and operation.
I have no idea where the money goes.
For that matter, I have no idea where the sales revenue goes from the golf course pro shop or the pool snack bar. They may be set up to break even.
If that is so, at the prices charged that may be something to look into.
While I'd like to see the improvements suggested by Mr. Franklin and Mr. Ewing, maybe this is the time to do only what is necessary to keep the course from deteriorating.
If after we take care of the necessities like roads and flood-prone areas if there is anything left we look at climbing walls, sand traps and turf.
Mr. Ewing, the "reported treatment" is just that - reported. I'm sure you can ask Mrs. Pajak about her experiences on the SAB and she'll give it to you straight. I've known Joy for almost 40 years and she's a great representative for women's golf, the SAB and Mt. Lebanon. I'm sure the other members feel the same way.
We can agree to disagree on Nos. 4 and 5. I've never played a course where I thought every hole is perfect. Unfortunately, we have 4 & 5. You and I won't stop playing there if those holes stay the way they are. Regrading those holes is, in my opinion, window dressing when there are other basic necessity such as the tees and bunkers and especially at a price tag of close to $800,000.
Dave Franklin
Mr. Franklin, i agree I won't stop playing because of #4 and #5. If the greens and tees deteriorated I might look for another convenient course. Time and cost also factor in. If 9 becomes more expensive than 9 at South Park or you have to wait behind 2 foursomes at each tee that can kill wanting to play there as well.
You make a good point. I wonder will MTL youth quit playing sports if Mellon stays the way it is amd they don't get a $1.2 million turfed field?
Nope, but more kids could play more often and there would be less of a likelihood that we will (a) have to turn away kids from certain sports as they grow or (b) have to rent field space outside if Mt. Lebanon.
Dave Franklin
Dave, on August 8, 2013 at 4:07 PM, I asked you this. My selective memory isn't failing me this time. Please respond:
"Let's try this again. Why didn't you START with the school district concerning the conditions of the fields? You are trying to tie up the limited unassigned funds by going through the commission, while the school board directors are sitting on your pot of gold. It doesn't make sense. I have been asking this all along. Mellon is a school district field. Deal with the school district. Unless, you are doing a bait and switch and will try to fund turfing McNeilly or back to Wildcat and Middle.
You are one slippery son of a gun.
Elaine"
BTW, I don't have tunnel vision, so it is difficult to keep track of every aspect of Mt. Lebanon govt. while maintaining a website and a very active blog. I have run for office and have only missed an election one time and I have a damn good reason for not voting that day in 2005. I have forgotten more than you will ever know about Mt.Lebanon. Now please humor me and respond to what I wrote to you on August 8.
Elaine
Saturday, August 10th, 7pm. Mellon Field empty.
8:15 pm still empty except for two teens playing catch in the middle of the field, with lacrosse sticks.
I thought I have, but let me try it again. The SAB has had 5 meetings. As you know, representatives of both the school board and the commission attend. So do Dave Donnellan and John Grogan. At one of our last meetings we prioritized some projects. The #1 priority coming out of that meeting was to turf a field. Our goal is to improve all recreational opportunities in our community, and we don't distinguish between what's a school field and what's a muni field. After all, muni programs use school fields and vice versa.
Is this starting to sound familiar? OK, then I'lll keep going.
We then identified Mellon and Jefferson as perhaps the leading candidates for improvement. Frankly, Mellon is a disaster. Further, we were also aware of the upcoming discussion amongst the Commissioners regarding the allocation of the 2012 unassigned funds. since turf costs money, we went there first.
The Commissioners and muni staff that I have spoken to directly don't think that there are any "significant" roadblocks to having the muni invest in a school field. I have had some discussions with a couple school board members and they feel the same. Ultimately though, those are issues that we will need to resolve. I'm optimistic that most of our residents who support a turf project will be happy that something is being done with their tax dollars, without fretting over which taxing body holds the deed to the real estate.
I think it is important to note also that the sports groups have always met with the school district relative to fields. The president of the YSA for as long as I can remember has met at least twice a year with both the athletic director and Jan Klein to review the JMA, field allocations and field conditions. These meetings have always been very positive and the productive. In my humble opinion, all of the discussion about fields in the last couple years has actually improved the condition and maintenance at school fields. That's a good thing.
However, the fact remains that we continue to try and do more with less. Our programs are greater in both number and size than at any point in our history. As the self-proclaimed Mt. Lebanon expert, you probably know that. Participation among our youth is at an all time high, especially among young women. As the father of a teenage daughter who loves to play field hockey, that's awesome to see. Field hockey didn't exist when you were in high school Elaine (nor did girls' lacrosse - the fastest growing sport in the country) but of course you knew that. I'm sorry . . . where was I?
Oh yes, so if the Commission graciously decides to allocate funds to a field project, the discussion will then turn to which one. At that point, I trust there will be plenty of meetings as to the where, how, what and when. Discussions that will certainly involve the school district.
So, that's pretty much a run down of the entire process. We started where we thought we should, keeping in mind that we've only had a handful of meetings. I honestly don't have a better answer for you. I'm not hiding the ball, and there's no hidden agenda. If that does not meet with your approval, I apologize. If you want to come to our next SAB meeting and blast the process to date, I'll save you a seat. If you want me to send an email to the school board letting them know that we would to turf Mellon (with municipal funds, if we get them) and also letting them know that it would be awesome if they pitched in, I'll do it tomorrow.
Dave Franklin
David Franklin,
I understand your view that redoing holes 4 and 5 are not worth $800,000. You are looking at a cost benefit outcome. Just to be clear I conceded a redo on 5. Unfortunately, we did it wrong the first time because of poor management.
Where is the cost benefit of $1.2 million for turf? We’ve had better sports teams in the past and WPIAL playoffs are a joke anyway. In the past we had to win more than 2 division games to get into the WPIAL finals.
Also, why do we need to make room for every kid, all the time, with turf or rented fields? To me, both are nice to have but not at the expense of basic infrastructure and educational needs. Part of a good education is learning you may not be as good as others in athletics or science or math or English, and so fourth. OK, that is life, and we all need to deal with that at one time or another.
If we were honest about recreation costs we would include the cost of the debt service in the recreation cost reports. Instead we ignore debt service costs when we expense recreational activities. In short the municipal cost reports are lies to the community and the commission and on we go issuing more debt in an era of deleveraging and private industry cost reduction. In an older community with basic needs that benefit many more folks, how do you justify the lies of financial reporting and the misallocation of scarce funds by our local governments?
John Ewing
8:33, football starts on Saturday. Stop by.
Dave Franklin
I'm not here to justify anything Mr. Ewing. Nor am I here to suggest that turf will improve WPIAL playoff outcomes. Frankly, I don't know anyone who is deeply involved in this process who gives two hoots about WPIAL playoffs , scholarships or any of the other nonsensical theories that people create as to why "they" think we want turf. Lets set the record straight right now - my oldest kids won't see any benefit to a turf project that's completed in the next two years and none of them are going to school on an athletic scholarship. Please believe me when I say, it's not about that.
Let me ask you this - Would you prefer that kids 7-10 do nothing in the way of organized sports? That's pretty much what we did at that age. When I was growing up baseball, football, etc all started around 10. These days, things start much earlier. Is that really a bad thing? Given all of the other crap in the world and even in Lebo these days, are we really suggesting that giving young kids a safe, positive outlet is a bad thing?
And please, our kids learn faster than most that they can't be the best at everything. The level of competition in Lebo teaches them that real quick. When you have a pool as large as we do, kids learn the brutal truth real early that there are only so many QBs, so many shortstops and so many point guards. That's why I played golf. But you'll never convince me that engaging as many young kids in sports early and often is a bad thing.
Dave Franklin
John Ewing is correct.
Mr Franklin, if Mt Lebanon really needs all of the athletic provisions that you advocate then let the private sector profitably provide it!
The invisible hand has been proven to be the most efficient and the most effective way to solve the problem of scarcity.
Mr Franklin, free market capitalism is the best road to prosperity. If there is a need for turf, sand traps, swimming pools, football stadiums, soccer ball fields, nerf football leagues or anything else that your little mind conjures-up then let the free market provide it and get the government off our backs!
I'll look forward to seeing you at the commission discussion session on Tuesday night.
John David Kendrick
Mr. Franklin, so what if football starts next Saturday.
Today, was a nice day, the field waa open and no one on it
No pick up baseball, soccer, lacrosse or football. One would think with Steeler pre-season starting and your football starting next Saturday, some kids would be chucking a ball around and playing two-hand touch in preparation.
Nope, these sports facility deprived youth will wait for youth sports next week to start, to handle a football.
What in the hell are you going on about, Mr. Franklin. Our kids learn early on that they're not a QB, shortstop or point guard, before they reached puberty, fully developed or mentally matured.
That is the most rediculous thing I've ever heard.
Many a pro athlete didn't find their best position until college or later.
What you're actually saying is that some adult pigeon holes a kid.
It was Mr. Brumfields' plan to turf Mellon last year ! Mr. Brumfield put you on his board, Mr. Franklin. The SAB didn't come up with this ! Mr. Brumfield did ! Mr. Brumfield is there to serve the schools, not the muni. You are just his puppet, Mr. Franklin !
Awesome. Do you realize that I was nominated by someone in the Parks Board? Do you also know that I initially rejected the appointment to the SAB? Do you know that I don't even get a vote? Do you know that I've probably been more critical of Mr. Brumfield on this issue than perhaps anyone else? Please stop pretending you have a clue.
Dave Franklin
Sorry, Dave but 11:15 PM is right. As i said before Dave Brumfield introduced the idea to turf Mellon or Jefferson at the Joint Discussion meeting 17 months ago. Dave Brumfield started the SAB. Is this starting to sound familiar? OK, then I'lll keep going. It was no surprise that the SAB's #1 priority was to turf a field. It is dreadful that is the Commission majority's #1 priority too. What I don't understand is, with all the water features going into the pool, who is going to be using the fields? Or the reverse could be asked. With all the kids playing Lebo ball, who will be using the climbing wall and the slides? The senior citizens?
I just saw your comment, Dave. You rejected the appointment at first because you had a hissy fit that you didn't get a vote. Your wife gets a vote. And the groups most represented on the SAB are field sports. Is that fair? How many groups don' t get a vote, Dave? This whole thing has been a farce.
You will get your turf Dave. The golf course will suffer. People's homes will continue to flood. Morgan Drive will continue to flood. Cedar Blvd. will continue to flood. No more debates of grass vs. turf. No more discussions of eco-friendly artificial turf vs. artificial turf. You win, Dave. You will get your turf. The democratic process is dead here in Mt. Lebanon, both on the municipal side and the school district side.
Elaine
I like this author's thoughts on the Inside Youth Sports blog.
http://www.insideyouthsports.org/2012/02/unequal-playing-time-in-youth-sports.html?m=1
They write: "Like many other issues in youth sports, the equal playing time one is magnified by today’s youth culture that places so much emphasis on adult-run organized youth sports. Promoting more opportunities for children to engage in self-directed play (e.g., pickup games) would enable kids to naturally get the “equal playing time” they need to develop their skills and have fun."
Dave Franklin,
Great! We agree on the WPIAL playoffs! More progress has been made here.
I live in Pittsburgh where sports are a good thing. What I am suggesting is our spending scarce resources on sports are unbalanced with other community needs. That spending is coming from community pressure and management that is too weak to say, NO! That is not how we became a great community.
Did we really NEED a vomatorium for the high school?
Did we really NEED three high school gyms?
Did we really NEED a giant field house?
Is our school really a community resource? If so, why are the residents routinely ignored by the Board, the Superintendent, and the Commission?
Sports are expensive for everyone, parents and residents combined. And today’s parents are stretched further than our parents used to be on expenses. Just look at the prices paid for real estate in Mt. Lebanon, let alone the cost of sports equipment and travel.
You make a good point that sports start much earlier. The earlier start increases the demand for fields even though the school age population is declining. But the number of needed street repairs, sewer repairs, and traffic needs, basement flood control, and sports facilities repairs are constantly increasing in price. We can only spend a dollar once, or borrow the money when most folks are paying down debt because of a sluggish economy.
David, I’m not trying to convince you engaging kids in sports is bad, I’m making the point that we need more balanced spending in Mt. Lebanon and your comments about the golf course show you understand and agree with some of what I am saying. So sit back and reflect on my thoughts before you respond and I’ll think about your comments too. Perhaps we will find even more common ground in the future.
John Ewing
This place is so dysfunctional it makes me want to vomit! Good luck everyone, there's no hope for you or for the future. The township has been taken over by a bunch of incompetent special interest groups and the political groups are completely out of balance due to a lack of leadership among those other than the democrats. Mt. Lebanon was once a great place to live, but it is on the decline. Call it "Urban Sprawl".
By the way, the golf course is the only community amenity I use, and it seems that it is not a priority with the Commissioners.
-disgruntled and disenfranchised resident
I agree with 12:34 AM: the one expenditure I would support is the municipal golf course.
The golf course is used by a wide variety of age groups; it's even used for sledding in the winter.
It seems to be our tax dollars should be spent on what benefits the most residents.
A curiousity.
What is the one sport that people, male and female can play almost their entire lives. A sport where they never sit on the bench, practically never at risk for a dibilitating injury, learn etiquette and social graces, dads and moms can actually play WITH sons and daughters rather than sit on the sidelines.
The answer is ta da... golf, of course.
Mr. Franklin is aware of this of course and he brings up a number of issues with one of our best assets, the golf course.
But what is he lobbying for? Making $500,000 worth of improvements to a sport our kids will be able to play their whole lives... No. He's after $1.2 million for a turfed field that most kids will stop playing once they leave high school.
Serioisly, how 50 and 60 year old do you see plaing lacrosse, soccer, field hockey and football?
Elaine, for two years you've been saying turf is a "done deal". You told your readers to stop debating it it because it was going to be in the rec bond for sure. A year later, you're still telling us its a done deal, but you know that even if the Commission allocates every penny of undesignated funds to the project, it would still be about $400,000 short. Turf was kept out of the rec bond, despite a majority of commissioners being in favor, so one would think you would be doing back flips. Democracy seems to working quite well for you. If its a done deal, why do you bring it up in every blog post?
Since that time we've borrowed $500,000 for the golf course and borrowed $600,000 for Robb Hollow. We've spent money on the tennis courts. We've spent money on the Rec center. We'll spend more money to fix the parking lot on Cedar to satisfy another small group for Commissioner Fraasch. The $600,000 earmarked for Robb Hollow would help fix some flooding basements along the Cedar corridor, don't you think? Would those residents rather have safe sewers or a dog park? Those aren't sports association projects. Have you asked the commission to re-examine the use of those funds?
I'll let you enjoy your fantasy about Dave Brumfield's master plan. It will hopefully distract you while get on wiith our work.
12:34 and 12:50, what are your thoughts own spending $500,000+ to re-grade holes 4 and 5 at the golf course? Do you think it's necessary? Do you think residents who don't play golf think that your special interest group is taking money away from other needs? I'm not suggesting its your idea, but I think you see my point.
Dave Franklin
8:48, again if you've paid attention over the last two days or been to a meeting in the last two years you'd know that I've lobbied for money at the golf course. I previously served on the commission's ad hoc committee to study improvements and revenue generation at the golf course. Where I think you and I and some others differ is that I still think its important to improve our fields even though I or my kids may no longer use them. What kind of community would we be if we all said, "We'll, now that I'm 50 and the kids are grown and gone, I have no use for any of this stuff." Those who came before us didn't say that to me or my kids, so why would we be so shallow?
Dave Franklin
Mr. Franklin, i agree with you on many of the improvements suggested to the golf course. I hate hole #5, it would be nice to see it reconfigured. Does it have to be done today, or I won't patronize the course... no, i'll keep playing there as time, money and health allows.
What I don't understand is this fixation that people that oppose turf are against youth sports. That's just not true.
Since the break up of the JMA agreement their seems to be a modest improvement to our fields. Maybe our fields don't need turf, just proper care.
8:48 is shallow Mr. Franklin, because they don't make turf a priority... is that your point?
12:34 here, Mr. Franklin.
I don't think regrading holes 4 and 5 is necessary. What is necessary is having a tractor (wasn't that purchase scratched off the list?) to maintain the golf course. There are many courses around the area to play on and no one should expect the Mt. Lebanon course to be the best one around. Hole 4 is horribly soggy after heavy rain, but try golfing in Scotland with the rain coming at you sideways in sheets. I'm certainly not whining for a perfect world to satisfy my needs, unlike other whiny people around here.
Dave, a podcast of Brumfield's master plan is not a fantasy.
It is a done deal. You stopped blogging on January 29, 2013. You have three commissioners who will spend unused municipal tax dollars on school district assets. You write, "The Commissioners and muni staff that I have spoken to directly don't think that there are any "significant" roadblocks to having the muni invest in a school field." That muni staffer should be removed by the municipal manager. If you spoke with the municipal manager, Dave, the commissioners should fire the manager. The Home Rule Charter states that the Manager "shall keep the Commission fully advised as to the financial condition and future needs of the Municipality and make such recommendations to the Commission concerning the fiscal and all other affairs of the Municipality as he deems desirable." Commissioners that you spoke with should resign. They are not governing with the affairs of the Municipality in mind.
You, Dave, need to be dealing directly with the School District concerning District fields. The Municipality should be dealing with and maintaining their own assets, not "graciously decide(s) to allocate funds to a field project" as you write. The school district is sitting on MILLIONS of dollars. They can take care of their own fields.
Elaine
10:29...
Whats ykur point?.
We have driving rains coming down in sheets in Lebo too. Do you grab your sticks and head to our course?
Perhaps we should purchase some wind machines and have the fire dept. spray water so you can enjoy the manly game.
Question. Did you wear a kilt in that driving Scottish rain?
9:40, I don't think that everyone who is against turf is against youth sports, but even a casual reader of this blog would acknowledge that the anonymous posters who oppose turf love to blast youth sports. Just search "turf" and read some of the comments. In opposing turf, why do people have to write stuff like:
"And im not clearing my uae of the field with some wanna-be jock living vicariously through his kid. The first time im denied use of the public field im initiating litigation. This'll be fun. Good luck, sports geeks. You've just opened the door for a battle. I'll make sure nobody can use the fields."
"Games from the Little League World Series were on TV this weekend, how come our youth baseball doesn't compete? Williamsport is only a few hours away. Japan can send kids to compete but we can't?
The Great Affluent Bubble, builder of athletes, maker of men can't get it up on the world stage?
Sad."
"You throw a t-shirt on a 7 year, make him stand in right field for an hour, an promise him a snack do he don't cry... and that makes him an athlete!"
Given that so many seem intent on bashing youth sports, please forgive me if I defend them.
Dave Franklin
8:48 You are incorrect. The sport that anyone can pursue, during all stages of a lifespan is of course...SWIMMING.
11:13 The point is if I want to do something I'll do it and put up with less than perfect conditions. If hole #4 is soggy I guess I'll get wet feet that day. If I want to golf bad enough I'll do it. Maybe these kids (or parents) who want turf just don't really want to be out there enough to put up with less than perfect conditions on the fields.
12:52 i sent a follow post about the pool which apparently didn't go thru. My battery died seconds after hitting publish.
I didn't include swimming as a sport, though certainly there is competition for all age groups.
But the biggest percentage of pool goers don't use the pool for competition. Fitness most certainly, so yes you are correct.
There are also senior softball and hockey leagues to be fair. I wonder if we turf Mellon how many blocks of time will be made available to adults games and practice?
4:15, one of the goals/benefits of turf and lights is the ability to create and schedule adult leagues.
Dave Franklin
So basically, everyone is on-board with fixing the golf course. That is, after the municipality addresses actual needs in Mt. Lebanon like sidewalks, drainage improvements, road repair and on and on. I think it's wonderful the various sides of the issue and all the respective parties have utilized this blog to fuel a public debate that has resulted in a consensus.
Good job to all, and thank you Elaine.
Sorry 3:47 I misinterpreted you comment. I thought you were referring to the people wanting new holes 4 & 5 as whiners. Sorry. I agree with you.
If one loves a sport, you'll find a way to play it, whether it is clearing a vacant field and measuring of the base pads or tying a rusted basketball goop to a phone pole, if you want it you'll find a way to play the game.
I will say I wouldn't let a soggy fairway go that way for long, it will eventuallt get worse and more expensive to repair.
The problem with the turfers is they absolutely refuse to raise money, or commit to raise money for their project or use of facilities.
As noted many times over, swimmers, golfers, basketballers, bocciers, tennisers, hockeyers, skaters and other ers make meaningful contributions to the facilities they use, and appreciate what the community contributes as well. Not so for the turfers.
The turfers are the first to say the readers do not pay for the library. Maybe not, but the libraryers unselfishly raise thousands of dollars each year for the benefit of the readers. So this should count.
And last, as the community has been reminded several times over, when the turfers commit, they often do not pay.
5:20 No problem, I think we agree and you are probably correct that a significant problem will cost more to repair later.
Mr. Franklin why not just light a couple of natural grass fields which is substantially less ecpensive, if adding adult games is your goal.
Take one step at a time.
Turfed fields for adult leagues is Franklin's Folly.
Mr. Franklin,
We built a third gym at the High School for adult use.
Don't you remember?
John Ewing
Have you all seen the book "How Children Succeed: Grit, Curiosity, and the Hidden Power of Character" by Paul Tough? It's relevant here. I believe kids should develop GRIT in Mt Lebanon when and where they can, safely. I played in mud, muck, snow and on less than desirable fields as a kid and everything turned out much better than fine. Kids aren't traumatized by rained out games. They look forward to the next one. Instead of staying inside when field conditions are terrible, they should go next door, and weather permitting, play pick up games in their neighborhoods.
Sooooo, what about Brafferton, Dave? It is going to have a nice new 25-car parking lot for Brafferton, yet the commissioners are going to decide on Tuesday what to do with the bids that came back too high. Do they go for a smaller field? But you keep pushing for them to give money to the school district who have millions of dollars because they overtaxed us too.
Elaine
Right on 12:51.
It was a topic of discussion at many of our youth sports games anbout how the parents had to round up the kids shin guards, or glove, or cleats, or T-shirt, bat and the oh so essential water bottle, gotta have that water bottle... to get them ready for the game.
Back when you played on those terrible fields, moy and daddy only obligory duty was to demand you brush your teeth before you ran out the door to play ball with yyour frienfs!
One of our favorite activities as kids was playing tackle football in the rain and mud. We looked forward to It though the moms hated it... "you go straight to the laundry room young man!" Under their beathe though they were laiughing out loud at their Joe Namath wannabe covered head to toe in mud and grass.
Nobody got hurt except for the occassional black and blue mark. Oh we did have one fatality. The kid with the loose baby tooth got it knocked out and play was delayed until he ran it home and got the bleeding stopped.
One might debate how well some of you turned out since you don't even have the mental toughness to sign your names to a blog post. How can you even begin to question anyone's grit and character when you aren't even willing to stand behind your convictions?
Dave Franklin
It's my blog, Dave, not yours.
Elaine
They don't stand in front of a fan at ball games like you have to.
Soooo, Dave, what about Brafferton?
Elaine
If we get turf, the kids in Mt. Lebanon will have turf and "Grass" and alcohol. See what happens when you elect California dreamers to the Commission.
Brumfield isn't from California, and he is calling the shots on the commission. Matt Kluck is president in name only.
Elaine
What we have to answer to Franklin now?
How does he know we don't communicate with our commissioners and directors and sign our names?
This is a community blog Mr. Franklin, run by a private citizen. Not you!
Seems I remember hearing that you too have blogged anonymously Mr. Franklin and if memory serves, there were some anon post on your not so popular blog.
It is amazing to me that when comments don't fall in step with yours, Mr. Franklin, you get miffed and demand the game gets played by your rules.
Amazing how a silly little community bnlog with 3 or 4 "wingnuts" is such a threat.
Brumfield can't chase an ambulance fast enough to buy himself a hose as big as Raja's living room, but he is the leader of the commission. How sad?
8:54, I'm definitely no fan of Brumfield's and don't want to see him reelected, but have we arrived at a point in the bubble where the size of a man's house is the measure of his wotth?
Plus, Raja is the benchmark of a good commissioner?
Dave Franklin, always the great unifier striving to reach compromises for the good of the community makes comments like the one at 8:25.
Never, ever will he answer direct questions like Elaine's on how we handle Brafferton, or what about the overage on the pool. What is most pressing at the golf course?
No its... "I want my million dollar turf, I want my million dollar turf!"
"I'm not talking to you until I get you to buy me my million dollar turf!"
Or the size of his hose? I think 8:54 AM was making reference to something that Brumfield said.
Elaine
I try to forget everything Brumfield says.
Mr. Franklin - There's more grit around here than you could ever imagine, don't be fooled by anonymous blog posts.
I sign my name, Dave. Would you care to continue the debate?
Should I once again point out that turf does nothing to enhance athletic performance? Or maybe I can note turf does nothing to reduce injuries? Maybe I should point out that during the last Commission meeting you made a statement to the effect, "Every school and university is changing over to turf (paraphrased but pretty close), while offering zero evidence to support such a claim (and for clarificaiton, the opposite is true. Many universities are actually reverting abck to grass but facts can be pesky things).
Maybe I can ask why, if turf is so wonderful, Heinz field, home to both a professional team and a Division 1 college team, is grass? Or PNC Park? Or are you saying they would be all be more competitive with an artificial surface? Last fall, I offered stats from the NFL Players' Association survey. 70 percent of the players prefer grass. Are you saying that somehow you and the other coaching dads know better than professional players? And aren't we supposed to be going "green" as a community? If so, how does it make sense to use an artifical surface as opposed to one that is renewable as well as oxygen-generating?
I can certainly point to the silly arguments used during the Commission meeting in favor of pissing away public (meaning it doesn't belong to the Commission) money on something that isn't needed and will be used by only a handful of residents while not generating any revenue. See, the golf course needs the grass and the holes repaired or else it ceases being a golf course. It just becomes a bunch of hills. The fields in the center of the turf debate have been used constantly for their intended purpose. I remember being on them 30 years ago. Not much has changed. Kids can still play baseball on the diamonds and can still run through the grass to play soccer. Amazing. This goes back to what I've said before, both to you personally, Dave, and in writing--the turf idea is all about convenience and luxury. It's not a necessity. Your group came pretty close to admitting it a couple weeks ago. Again, I odn't think anyone owuld object to the idea if you would walk in to a Commission meeting with an actual plan and the funding in place. I'd like a roller coaster in my backyard, Dave. And I'm sure some of my neighbors would want to ride it. But I'm not going to ask the Commisssion to pay for it. Turf is exactly the same.
Please stop trying to reframe this whole thing as sports/anti-sports. It's all about priorities. Why does the township have a surplus? Well, either they extracted too much upfront, in which case it should all go back to the people who paid it. Or costs were managed in such a way that the money wasn't needed at the back end, in which case the money should go back to the people who paid it. The last thing we should be discussing is how to spend the "extra". But if that conversation has been killed, then I would ask the Commission to do what's right, use common sense and spend the money on something practical like sidewalks, radios for the fire department or something that will actually lend value and security to our town. Artificial turf for little kids doesn't.
Since Mr. Franklin IS willing to sign his name, I wonder what his employer thinks about him blogging during work hours as he writes about "mental toughness." I'm willing to bet that his law firm has a "no blogging policy."
How come the SAB school commissioner liasion doesn't chime in here. Mr. Franklin says the SAB is looking to turf a school district field half paid by the municipality and heaven knows where the rest is coming from.
The school district will be left holding the bag for the light bill, the maintenance and the future replacement probably.
Now Mr. SB liasion, isn't it about time you alert your constituents on the school district's position on this matter? Or at least suggest the board president speak up. Is the board "on board?" Or is the board HIDING OUT so that voters won't know where it stands before the the election?
How about the 4 remaining candidates, any of you care to alert voters to where you stand on increasing school district expenditures on non-academic stuff?
The SAB and commissioners seem to think they have control over your fields?
Mr. Franklin, you do not realize how you get in the way of getting anything done.
You don't have a plan, you don't even have a commitment from the school district that they are OK with you vaporplan for turf and you're institgating fights in the blog. You don't even know that the municipality HAS $600,000 lying around to commit to turfing a school district field!
Whether I sign my name or not doesn't change the facts. The above is true and you pretty much said so yourself.
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