Three commissioners were there, so it WAS a public meeting. Dave Brumfield, Kelly Fraasch, and Steve Silverman attended the meeting.
David Donnellan, Dan Deiseroth, and Jim Sauer walked residents (angry ones, at that) through the project.
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Neighboring residents were uninformed, took notes and asked many questions.
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Unfortunately, because of the photo below, I was unable to hear what was going on because I ended up calling the police.
Dave Franklin was talking with He Who Shall Not Be Named, when He Who Shall Not Be Named came charging over to me and threatened me with a wiretapping charge (See County drops wiretapping charge against South Fayette High School student who recorded bullying) and how I couldn't take his photo, and warned me not to mess with him. So I cropped He Who Shall Not Be Named out of the picture. Even though it was a public place, during a public meeting, I certainly don't want to mess with He Who Shall Not Be Named. He knows where I live. Bullying!
I missed most of the meeting because I spent it talking with the police. At the tail end, I asked David Donnellan if I could speak, and he ended the meeting abruptly, due to another meeting. I could not speak. Bullying!
Kelly Fraasch told us that the Turf Project Task Force was the meeting that Donnellan, Deiseroth, Franklin, Chip and Jim Sauer were attending. Kelly said that we could go to the meeting after asking Dan Deiseroth if it was public. He said that it was. People heard him say that. Two residents walked up to the meeting at the Rec Center and were asked to leave because they were told that it was not a public meeting and they were not invited. They were asked to put back the agendas they had taken. David Donnellan told one resident that he was gracious enough to let her speak at the concession stand since it was not a meeting for the general public. Remember, any time there are three commissioners in one place, that constitutes a quorum. All of us could have spoken, but they had "time constraints" due to the private meeting on how to spend taxpayer dollars. Bullying!
After David Donnellan hurried off to the Turf Project Task Force super secret meeting, I asked the crowd to stay and reminded them that this meeting meant nothing. The commissioners are the ones who made the decision. Residents must come to the Commission Meeting on April 28 and let their comments go on public record. There was a petition circulated and was signed by all the residents who attended the meeting. An online petition will be available soon.
On Saturday at the Main Park, residents will be able to sign the petition, pick up flyers and stickers at the Earth Day celebration.
So here is my recommendation, for what it is worth. Sign the petition. Email all of the commissioners (commission@mtlebanon.org). Go to the meeting on April 28. Speak during Citizens Comments. Ask Commissioner Silverman where he stands on this issue. His constituents were pretty upset tonight. I will be asking the commissioners to rescind the vote. If that won't happen, I will be demanding their resignations.
Update April 25, 2014 1:59 PM Through a Right To Know, here is All fundraising emails to and from the Recreation Department. I love the question asked on page 9. More facts for Monday night's commission meeting.
Update April 25, 2014 8:06 PM Here are the agendas for Monday's Commission meetings.
Commission Discussion Session starting at 6:30 PM Note Items 3, 4, and 6.
Commission Meeting starting at 8:00 PM Note Item 2 - Citizen Comments.
96 comments:
Thank you, Elaine, for this blog! I attended the meeting tonight and was shocked at how few questions were answered by the very people who are spearheading this project. Neighbors with flooding problems - including a master plumber - knew more about the problems the project will create than the so-called "experts".
One neighbor asked if a traffic study had been done and the answer was no!
How the hell did we get here? I expected better out of Lebo governance. It's embarrassing, really. Bullying, hiding, secrets, lying, avoiding - what a mess the Democrat Commission has gotten us all into! Time for a change!
Wow. This sounds quite horrible. Thank you for the photographs.
I wish I had a videotape as I think this entire story deserves a documentary. In case readers haven't noticed, it's been a big couple of years for Pennsylvania with local communities featured in 'Kids for Cash' and 'Gasland.'
So perhaps my documentary will be entitled, "Kids for Cash in Turfland"or "Cash for Turfland" or "Turfed Kids for Cash" or just "Kids, Cash, and Turf".
It's OK people, if you steal my idea, just do a great job with the documentary.
Documentary ideas/titles "It's all about me!" or "Everyone wants what I want, and even if they don't they are paying for it anyway!"
Who is bullying who? Those on this blog constantly call people names, accuse them of being liars, thieves, and much worse. Just because you don't want something doesn't mean the people that do are evil, it is just a difference of opinion. There are many people who want this, just as there were many people who wanted the new high school. And speaking of a new high school, how long has their been turf at the high school? Since the early 70s? But suddenly turf is toxic? Really? Have you been protesting turf for the last 30 years at the high school? What about the University of PIttsburgh's TURF field? Do you think these major universities are clueless? How many of you claiming environmental issues have contracts with Chemlawn for your green grass? Again, a difference of opinion, you are entitled to yours, but don't claim others have to agree or they are bad people. Let's be honest, you showed up at this meeting knowing it was just for invited residents just to get into conflict with anyone who was interested.
As far as anyone on Cedar complaining, you did purchase property across from a rec facility. You had to know you might encounter some traffic and noise. You don't own the ballfields. Plain and simple. I don't own the park, the pool, or the golf course. I don't get a refund check for not using those facilities. Sometime you pay for things in a community that don't directly benefit you.
If you are not in support of something, you should speak up. You should ask questions and make your voice heard. But don't attack people who don't agree with you and then throw out the bullying card. Bullying is trying to intimidate someone through hostile means. You might want to look in the mirror on that one. Cheap, very cheap.
I had a rough night so I won't be checking the blog for much longer tonight. I hope that residents share what they heard at the meeting with Lebo Citizens readers.
Elaine
I was absolutely amazed at how the turf presenters avoided answering questions from residents, and the few explanations, or so called answers, provided were incomplete and inadequate.
Donnellan's alleged meeting time constraint - it had to end in no more than 1 hour or 7:00PM because of a following meeting commitment - was absolute BS ! All four of the 7:00 PM people were at the 6:00 PM meeting.
11:10 People are lying and stealing money from the residents by not including them in the process. It's unethical and it is on record.
You missed the meeting, or weren't listening because you don't have your facts straight on the high school turf. It has been replaced several times and parents are requesting that it be removed.
Pitt's field doesn't host young children who are growing and developing. I do not have a contract with Chemlawn. Honestly, the people who showed up were anti-turf residents and were motivated to attend. Any meeting held in a public place by municipal employees is PUBLIC! Only permitting a select few to attend when everyone here would be footing the bill is discrimination. So, I went to hear the plan and the lack of answers only solidified my position.
How dare you dismiss the residents who live on Cedar's concerns by scolding that they knew what they were getting into when they purchased their homes? Were the trees behind their houses sliding down the hill and was the land eroding when those people purchased their homes many years ago? - No! Why is the municipality prioritizing turf over regrading and resolving that situation?
We all pay for everything in this community and not all of us use every facility, but jeopardizing our bond rating by spending our (unassigned fund balance - :"emergency fund" )on this is completely irresponsible fiscal management.
I am against this turf project and I ask questions. The problem is that there aren't answers coming back in spite of my efforts. I want to review the work papers in detail to see firsthand all of the alternatives that were considered, the cost/benefit analysis of them, ongoing cost comparisons, additional anticipated costs such as for more parking, maintenance equipment, etc. No answers are coming, so given our boards and authorities were not consulted and there appear to be no work papers, what am I to think?
You seem to be strongly in favor of this - can you help to answer my questions?
I am signing my name even if you won't.
-Charlotte Stephenson
11:10 And by the way, the bullying is real. I witnessed it firsthand. I saw a man approach a woman very angrily. She put away her ipad and was quite shaken.
I talked with the residents who were kicked out of the "public" Turf Task Force Committee meeting afterward because suddenly it was "private". Go figure, a meeting with municipal staff and the bully on the Sports Advisory Board suddenly being proclaimed "private" with a demand to give back the agenda copy. Really? Is this how we operate here in Mt. Lebanon? Bullying is alive and well as far as I can see.
Will you sign your name, or are you a bully?
-Charlotte Stephenson
11:10 on a point or two I agree, yes the high school stadium does have turf and unfortunately with the heavy use artificial turf is a necessary evil.
That doesn't make a case for turfing Wildcat/Middle. There are natural grass alternatives, such as improving Brafferton, Bird and adding a field at Robb Hollow that would aleviate some of the stress on the grass at WC/M.
Its not like this is the same catagory as the stadium.
I personally prefer a well-groomed natural field over an artificial one and believe WC/M could be better maintained for less money than turfing it.
You say the residents in close proximatey to WC/M don't own it. In a sense we all do, so lets give every shareholder a say... put the turfing to a vote! If the majority wants it they get it, if they don't it doesn't get turfed.
As for as the name calling, if someone lies they are a liar!
If someone demands someone not take photos in an obvious public place where there is no expectation that your photo be taken, that is bullying.
Elaine What time Saturday? We need some signs on Crystal Drive! I'll stand next to you at the meeting and DARE any of these sick bullies to even look at you.
http://www.lebogreen.org/earth-day/
I'm too tired to make it a hyperlink.
Thanks, 12:06 AM.
Elaine
If the Trib, PG been there taking photos would the 'bully' accosted and accused them of wiretaping?
First, they'd have laughed in their face, then continued shooting.
Second what was the bully trying to hide or afraid of?
To be honest I really don't care that the fields are turfed or not. My kids are NOT involved in any field sports BUT I do have a problem that the community lost a large section of OUR park to 3 sports groups. If any resident dares to set onto these fields for a pick-up game or to just kick a soccer ball around they will be ticketed or arrested. My sons and I spend several Saturdays a year launching our rockets and flying our kites and how do I explain to them that only a few kids are now allowed to be there? Where in Mt Lebanon's Home Rule Charter does it state that commissioners are allowed to give away PUBLIC space to these sports groups? I know there are lawyers out there that are pissed about all this.... Step up and HELP! These commissioners are NOT going to stop here. They plan on raising taxes and building an indoor field house for lacrosse and soccer. They are talking about turfing and LIGHTING Mellon.
12:29 Well, it's time for these Commissioners to go. Throw the bums out!
12:29 You make great points, but the lawyers in this place are notorious for remaining silent because they don't want to jeopardize work coming in. It's a sad thing, but they never stand for anything if they aren't being paid. I wish they would step up, especially considering all of the legal violations we are experiencing from our elected officials. My guess is that the only time they voice their opinions is when they go to the polls - IF they go!
Where in the Home Rule Charter does it give commissioners the power to create a revenue generating scheme using public property then give the revenue to a non-public entity.
They're doing that with the field sign revenue, 12:29 and what is the big revision to the HR Charter proposed... making it gender neutral!!!
Oh boy!
FYI Residents PNC PARK home of the Pittsburgh Pirates is on a NATURAL GRASS surface. HEINZ FIELD home of the Pittsburg STeelers is a natural GRASS surface,
Do you think these PROFESSIONAL SPORTS team don't know what they are doing? Get real, and by the way they can afford turf.
And of course, none of your want to hear something from someone who isn't of your exact like mind.
Ms. Stephenson, did you really just stoop to accuse me of being a bully? Did I not acknowledge your right to ask questions, have an opinion, and in fact encourage you to do so? But that doesn't apply to me, does it? And you accuse others of bullying? I think it is shameful that grown people are using that term.
This project has been discussed on some level for years now. I am not sure why you didn't know about it. However, if a resident feels they need more info, they are certainly entitled to answers. However, if the answers aren't the ones you want, you can't kill the messenger.
Let's explore facts:
There isn't any room for a full sized field here. Kelly's plan, I spoke with her myself, was not for a full sized field, it was for a field that would be used for 12 and under. These were her words.
The grass fields get no time to rest. Without time to rest, the fields deteriorate.
As far as the public being able to use the fields, it is no different right now. When groups have permits to fields for specific times, they have use of the fields. Comments here suggest that is related to turf, but it isn't.
Toxic-that is really a stretch, because there has been turf in LEBO for over 30 years and there hasn't been any public outcry. One has to question why it is now a problem? Are we expected to believe those commenting have never been to the track or high school field in 30 years? Is every district wrong? This isn't a reference to keeping up with USC, but many, many communities here have turfed fields.
It is true that the residents of Cedar do not own the fields. It is true they knew they were buying property in a high traffic area. It is not reasonable to think there won't be challenges when purchasing such a property. They also do not have anymore of a vote than any other citizen. To say "not in my backyard"--guess what? It isn't your backyard. It is a community field.
CONTINUED:
Brafferton quotes for repairs came in many times higher than expected. I've been told that directly and I've heard it in a meeting, so I know some here already know that. I don't get the constant push for Brafferton repairs when that field has the same challenges as the others, even more so. The parking there is non existent. Even with Brafferton repaired, there is still a shortage. I am personally not against repairing that field at all, it just won't solve the issue.
For years, field space and rec facilities have been the topic of discussion. These facilities are a large part of any community and something that is important. It is something that has to be addressed, it can no longer be ignored. Plans have been explored and other fields were explored. I attended a meeting where there were renderings for other fields and suggestions at least a year ago.
Again, I stress the point that just because you do not agree or like something, doesn't mean it is a bad idea. The level the discussions go to here are shameful. Ms. Stephenson, how dare you call me names with all the nameless comments here? How dare you suggest your ideas are the one true word and no others matter?
At the end of the day everyone should be able to have a respectful exploration of the facts, opinions, and ideas in order to come to a majority decision on any topic. When it devolves into the rhetoric, nothing gets accomplished. It is too bad some people here just can't see that. I guess I should throw a fit and call people names over the things I don't want to pay for? Does that mean if we are on opposite sides of another future issue and it goes your way I get to call you a bully?
Again, I encourage everyone's right to their opinion, the right to ask questions, but as far as bullying, as I said, look in the mirror while you call that next name.
The Power of Parks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-MWdpZW8G8
Was that profile shot of Dave Brumfield taken with a wide-angle lens?
8:33 it's unfair of you to make the general statements you do without backing them up with facts. Once again, can you show the public the work papers and detailed analysis of how this decision has come this far? Can you explain why our Boards and authorities have been kept out of this process? You say it's been discussed for years, well, was it behind closed doors with the special interest sports group like the meeting last night where interested residents were kicked out?
Why won't you sign your name? You can take shots at me behind your keyboard and hide in the shadows, isn't that what bullies do?
-Charlotte Stephenson
No shots, who is taking shots? You are. Do you demand all post their name? No just me.
Unfair? What is unfair? I stated facts. I didn't even give my opinion of the entire thing. The facts can't be debated, only the solution.
Have you answered my questions? No, but I knew you wouldn't. That's ok. Why haven't you protested turf at the high school for the last 30 years if you have such grave environmental concerns?
I don't have any papers about this, I am not on a board or a commissioner, but I would guess you would have access to all of that. I cite info that was presented at normal, open meetings. I am sure the bid info on Brafferton is readily available. What board has been kept out?
Why do you constantly want to attack? People who sign their kids up to play a sport are NOT evil.
OK, 8:34 AM. Let me dumb it down for you. I was the first Mt. Lebanon high school graduating class to have Commencement on artificial turf. That was 1972. "We've come a long way, baby." Studies have been done all over the world. EPA, in the Fall of 2013, said whoa, we're not sure how safe it is because we don't have all the pieces to the puzzle. How do you build a jigsaw puzzle, 8:34 AM? You find the corner pieces. You find all the straight edges to the puzzle. You put all those pieces together and then start putting the other pieces of the puzzle together to complete the picture. We don't have enough straight edged puzzle pieces to come up with anything. We haven't found all the corner pieces yet. Studies were done on adults, not young children. We're going to have micro soccer with little kids three feet tall running on these fields. Their metabolisms are much faster than adults. Getting them to wash their hands before they eat or after they use the bathroom is a challenge. Everything goes in their mouths, including boogers! Yes, I said boogers. Why would you give kids the chance to put crumbled tire crumbs in their mouths? Try to throw away a tire, 8:34 AM. You can't. Why is it OK to let kids play on this? Following your logic, why are we doing asbestos abatement in our schools? It must be OK since we had it there for many years. Come on, 8:34 AM, you know what I am talking about is true.
Don't talk to me about bullies. Is it normal for a man to come storming up to me in a public meeting after I took pictures with my iPad and "throw a fit," with this same man knocking at my front door, unannounced to clear things up and has called my unlisted phone number in the past? Is having to call 911 standard operating procedure at an information session?
Oh please, 8:34 AM, help me get my facts straight.
Elaine
8:33, this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship. Thank you for so ably and civilly making these points.
Ms. Stephenson, et al., discussion including presentation of plans and options has been part of public Commission meetings (and public meetings of other boards and authorities) for several years.
10:06am
Out of respect your factual information isn't factual at all.
Please look at Kelly's blog all that follow this issue know that the Robb Hollow plan had one junior field in the lower half and one full size regulation field on the top half. Two new fields. Again one regulation full size and one junior.
Come on, you know there isn't any credible evidence that turf is harmful. Come on you know you didn't care anything about turf being toxic at the high school. It didn't just happen!
I have no idea about the police incident, which is why I haven't commented on that. You point out you called the police, so if there was a crime, I am sure we will all hear about any arrest or charges. My point has been you must see that there is another side and that doesn't make people evil and bad. I have done nothing but ENCOURAGE everyone to get the info they feel they need. But your constant lowering of the conversation is just silly.
I've presented many facts and no one wants to address those facts. Why not problem with hs turf? Why do people think turf makes access different? Why ignore the Brafferton bids? Doesn't mean you should change your view, just don't cut everyone down for having a differing opinion, unless you think it is ok for them to do that to you.
8:34
I appreciate the wading into these waters. I, for one, appreciate a different perspective.
I agree that part of the Kelly plan would have added jr fields down on Cedar. These would have been for the 12 and under crowd. However, at the top of Robb Hollow there was already a softball field used in the past. This was the area being looked at to add back a large field.
Yes, I know Gateway could mess around with drawings and the like but I can guarantee that the homeowners that back up to the dump that is the former softball field at Robb Hollow would have loved to have seen that developed into something that resembles a park instead of the current dump. Again, they already had a softball field there once and they removed it for grinding. Now I want it back.
Just want to correct that bit. Kelly has changed the proposal many times as the amounts of money have changed and according to what votes might be there on the commission.
Just so you know, she changed the plan again to reflect the idea that turf will be installed at Wildcat/Middle. The sports groups came back and said that there isn't a field SPACE issue, that turf will cure it's ills. That's why she changed the jr fields on Cedar to being a possible dog park. So now even those jr fields are gone.
As for the toxicity of turf, well I think there is conflicting data. We do know for a fact that non-organic turf does contain heavy metals and we know that heavy metals are linked to autism and other health issues. Are you willing to chance it? Just because something is done doesn't make it right. Remember when everyone thought asbestos was the best thing for fire protection? I put the probability of artificial turf being the next asbestos at greater than 25%.
I hope others will follow the lead here and not be offended by nor attack posters that offer a different viewpoint.
10:15 There you go again making a general statement. You won't explain the work steps undertaken to arrive at this grandiose scheme nor will you say why the associated boards and authorities and residents have been kept out of the loop.
I won't be responding to you any further, Mr. whoever you are, because you won't sign your name.
-Charlotte Stephenson
I'm confused about the comment regarding Pitt's turf field. Doesn't Pitt play their home football games at Heinz field? Do they also have a turf field on their Oakland campus?
This is to 8:33/8:34--The fields are municipal public land. Thus, they do, in fact, belong to everyone including the people who live on Cedar. It's nonsensical to make the argument people who live there bought houses just assuming the risk of some half-assed and unnecessary construction project. That's pretty far removed from any logic. you seem intelligent and articulate so I think you can do better.
Second, this isn't about a "difference of opinion". It's much larger than that. This entire saga, just like the high school project, is exposing the real lack of transparency in our community when it comes to spending public money. My original objection to the turf was solely economic. I stated as much. In fact, I said personally to Dave Franklin if the sports groups wanted to buy the land and fund the project themselves, I would happily bring a shovel and help dig. But to spend public money--my money--on something this dumb is not what I would call responsible spending, especially given the condition of roads and sidewalks in our town.
After some time, and after witnessing what I can only refer to as questionable behavior on the part of several commissioners, I started to examine the process, not just the project. What I've found, along with many others, is governance in Mt. Lebanon has not been and is not being conducted in a manner consistent with our community messaging or image, nor is it consistent with plain old average ethical expectations. ("Ethical behavior is doing the right thing even when no one else is watching--even when doing the wrong thing is legal", Aldo Leopold).
We've heard the claims about the project being discussed for four years. Funny how nobody who lives closest to the fields knew anything about it until recently. True, Mr. Brumfield can claim the commissioners have followed the letter of the law by properly advertising the public meetings and conducting such meetings as prescribed by the MPC. In essence, though, he's saying as a Mt. Lebanon commissioner, he's okay with doing the bare minimum when it comes to the residents. Well, as a resident, I'm not okay with that kind of approach. Further, if Mr. Brumfield and the others had put as much effort into notifying the community as they have getting their plastic field of dreams designed, there wouldn't be any questions regarding the lack of communication.
Regarding your indignation over the term bullying, I also witnessed the nonsense with Mr. D'Alessandro. Interesting he chose to confront a woman. Want to talk about bullying? I saw it. The SAB might want to consider picking better ambassadors in the future.
If you'd like to have a conversation regarding this project, I'm happy to do so. I sign my name and provide contact information because I believe in my stance. You, however, must not have strong convictions since you choose to leave your comments anonymous. Either you believe it what your write or you don't. But feel free to contact me. There is a standing offer with anyone in the community who wants to talk over breakfast--and I'm buying. My phone number is 412-304-6114.
Let's put aside the health and environmental issues for a minute. We cannot afford turf. We are using our reserve funds for a "want" instead of a "need". When (not if) this gies over budget, what then? Another mill increase? We have the highest taxes in the county - it's already a huge turn off for prospective hone buyers, and the newcomer situation isn't helping matters. We need to stop spending so much $$$ and focus on wats to reduce taxes - and this is coming from a proud left of center person! I'm not a conservative, but I am a realist. Endless taxes are going to destroy this community.
8:33/8:34, some rebuttal to your facts.
You write "there isn't any room for a full size field here."
According to https://www.athleticfieldmarker.com/soccerfield/
Soccer Field Dimensions and Layout Tool for All Age Groups
Soccer Field Dimensions
***SOCCER FIELD DIMENSIONS - BY AGE****
AGE FIELD WIDTH FIELD LENGTH
Age (MIN to MAX) (MIN - to -MAX)
U-6/7 (15yds TO 20yds) (25yds TO 30yds)
U-8 (20yds TO 25yds) (30yds TO 40yds)
U-9 (30yds TO 35yds) (40yds TO 50yds)
U-10 (40yds TO 50yds) (60yds TO 70yds)
U-11 (40yds TO 50yds) (70yds TO 80yds)
U-12 (40yds TO 55yds) (100yds TO 105yds)
U-13 (50yds TO 60yds) (100yds TO 110yds)
INT'L (70yds TO 80yds) (110yds TO 120yds)
So your statement 8:33, like so many in this discussion isn't entirely accurate. There are plenty of fields that can accomodate appropriately sized fields. By creating and maintaining age appropriate sized fields we can alleviate the stress to any one by spreading play around. Fraasch's plan would do just that.
I'm told there are grass field designs that recover and are ready for play 1 hour after a rain storm that cost far, far less than $1 million. We could have 3 of them for less than the taxpayers contribution of $750,000.
As for the cost of fixing Brafferton, I find Gateway's participation in all this curious. Seems it would be in their best interest to overestimate fixing Brafferton to reap the rewards of a bigger more expensive project at Cedar.
I believe I read an Almanac article that quoted one of the authorities stating that redoing the grass at WC/M could be done for around $200,000. They then proceeded to talk that option done because it wouldn't hold up. But here's the obvious question. If you can redo the grass at WC/M for $200,000, why is the Brafferton redo over $350,000?
The claim that turfing WC/M increases game slots by 60% is mathmatically impossible!
You may consider your facts-- facts, 8:33. That doesn't necessarily mean they are.
8:33/8:34, you say the WC/M turf has been discussed for years.
But as recently as APRIL 20, 2012 LEBO FIELDS HAS BEEN PROMOTING A
"Field of Dreams"
http://lebofields.blogspot.com/2012/04/field-of-dreams.html?m=1
They posted:
"I think this great picture from the FieldTurf website shows just how special a Mellon project could be. It would provide a full size baseball field, together with a multipurpose field for football, soccer, lacrosse and field hockey. Multiple teams and sports could utilize this space at the same time with proper planning and cooperation. Lights would allow us to significantly increase the hours of use for the benefit of not only our youth, but also for adult soccer and softball leagues. Keep in mind this facility would also be about a 5 minute walk from the central business district, and would offer a true recreational showcase in the heart of our community."
Now I could buy into this plan if it included two items.
One a quick drying, well maintained natural grass fields at Mellon and Wildcat/Middle.
I personally contacted the people at Hummer Turf and they gave me a ballpark estimate for their Sand Grid system at Wildcat/Middle of around $350,000 tops.
You can see photos of this system at:
http://www.usaturf.com/hummersportsturf/services/sandgrid.asp
They claim their natural grass turf dries and is ready for play 20 minutes after a heavy rain.
So I'm think we could actually have TWO natural grass fields for approximately $700,000. Figuring that we saved $500,000 by not installing artificial turf at one site we'e'd have plenty of money left over to recondition these fields or improve others year after year.
I submitted the above to a commissioner so while I'm anonymous here (for reasons) that doesn't mean I'm spineless or hiding out.
Is Hummer the only company that can create great grass sport fields, I don't know.
To 10:24 AM - For you to state that "we" know there isn't any credible evidence that turf is harmful is beyond ridiculous. You are delusional and just plain silly! You are the one who is lowering the conversation and it is very clear that you have not been following along. Elaine has posted many links to scientific studies which show the harmful effects of the materials that are present in this plastic turf. Believe it or not, science has advanced in the past 40 or so years since artificial turf was first installed at the HS. Remember that 40 years ago we also thought that asbestos was safe. We all know how that turned out. We treat it like the hazardous material that it is and are paying dearly to abate it at the high school. When you read the list of chemicals and toxic metals that the turf is made of how can you honestly say that it is not harmful?
Will the sports teams be selling cigarettes and alcohol at the concession stands to raise money for the toxic turf? obviously they DO NOT CARE ABOUT HEALTH HAZARDS!
12:10 PM, thank you for that ! The SAB proposed design for a turfed "full size game field" at W/M by the SAB has turned out to be 165'x 320',or 55yds x 107yds, which is a U-13 rated field. Does this mean the field is suitable for only up to age 13 children, and not "full size" for high school ages ?
Regarding strange cost estimating, another glaring example is the 93 space parking lot off Cedar, originally considered in August, 2012 at a Gateway total cost estimate of $249,000. By early 2013, a decision was quietly made to proceed with construction of only an initial 35 spaces. A contract was let in April, 2013 for the 35 spaces at a cost of $117,400. The Muni then proposed in August, 2013 the remaining 58 spaces for construction in a 2016 Capital Improvement Program (CIP) proposal with a Gateway cost estimate of, hold onto your hat, $299,000 ! Now $117,400 + $299,000 = $416,400, which is $167,400 or 67% higher than the Gateway original cost estimate of $249,000 just the previous year !?? This was never questioned by the Commission or explained by the staff or Gateway. But this 2012 *lowball* cost estimate was to disqualify two other parking lot options under consideration, and give the SAB field jockeys precisely what they wanted.
BTW, the 35 space lot does not fully conform to the Mt. Lebanon Zoning Ordinance, Chapter XX, or Chapter XI, Parks & Recreation of the Mt. Lebanon Code.
More facts for Monday night's meeting in my 1:59 PM update. Don't miss page 9's question. It's a keeper! What is disturbing to me is that the bcc's are not showing up in Sandy Kyper's email. I was under the impression that over 8000 emails addresses were included. Email addresses may be redacted in RTKs, but not names of people over 18. The municipality is getting shadier and shadier.
Elaine
To those who argue that this has been discussed publicly for years, are you arguing that new residents shouldn't get a say? Even though we are still at a stage when the project could be cancelled? Welcome, newbies. Here are your reassessments and, by the way, we are using 1M in "surplus" ie overtax, to turf fields. But since you weren't here for the discussion yrs ago, you have no right to be upset.
Anyone read the pages from Commissioner Fraasch in the RTK?
Please give the Commissioner a hand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11:10 Perhaps if the people who "want something" were "civil" to the concerns and expressions of those who have a differing opinion, there would be a calmer tone. People tend to respond when constantly told that the opinion of no one counts unless it supports the Bully 3 on the commission. By this phrase I do not intend to excuse the others (none of whom I consider to be truly representative or inclusive in the conduct of their offices), but I do intend to make it clear that it is the height of hypocrisy for you (it is Dave Brumfield writing, is it not?) to tell everyone who disagrees with you that it is only a difference of opinion when you fail to show the same courtesy to others. Yes, it is "bullying" and, yes, it is the constant feature of the behavior of the commission and its members. Maybe soon there will be true electoral choice so the people can throw the "machine" out of power. You see, Dave, it is not partisan, it is all about the few abusing the power that belongs to the people who elected you.
12:39; I like the way you think!
8:33/:34; You have a bit of knowledge to be a bit dangerous but you really do not have all the facts. Read up a little on Ms. Stephenson. She tends to do her homework REALLY WELL!!
In the meantime, James Cannon is very well versed in this subject. A commissioner asked him to do a presentation about the pluses and minus' of artificial turf. Please read the presentation if have not done so. It may enlighten you. As to the more fields versus better usage; the issue has always been about field space until two years ago when the bond issue for McNielly and the swimming pool failed to pass. Artificial turf was not part of the discussion then but it is now. As for Brafferton; this field was to include additional parking and be used for field sports particularly LX. The Comprehensive Plan mentions Artificial Turf but it stresses additional fields with the EMPHASIS on environmental concerns. The entire Comprehensive Plan stresses Environmental concerns! Flooding issues will be exacerbated by impervious surfaces proposed for this area. Do you realize that additional parking, the high school and now another huge impervious surface at WC/MID will only further the damage property downstream. I can go on and on but the truth be told, I am older, tired and do not see a responsible government spending your tax dollars wisely. Mrs. Fraasch has a great plan to utilize the Robb Hollow park. Use her plan!
Constance Spicuous Consumption
8:33/:34-you have enough knowledge to be a bit dangerous with the facts but I would brush up on your homework before you start challenging Ms. Stephenson on facts.
12:39;I like the way you think. This has always been about the number of fields and their usage. Mrs. Fraasch had a plan to utilize Robb Hollow wonderfully but could not garnish enough support. Former commissioners had a great plan for McNeily but the bond issue did not pass due to the majority of the funds being redirected to the swimming pool. This is when artificial started to enter the picture.
8:33/:34, Brafferton was to be reconfigured to include additional parking and a field size large enough to be utilized for field sports, particularly LX.
James Cannon was asked by a commissioner to present the pluses and minus' to "Artificial Turf" which he turned into a very unbiased presentation that presented facts, not opinion. Such is his tact!
Taxes are high and continuing in that direction because of wants. The continuous creation of impervious surfaces will continue to affect property downstream. These include the high school project, the new parking lot, and now an artificially turfed field. This area is presently flood prone and these additional projects will only exacerbate the problem.
A highly taxed community has ramifications that cannot be quantified until people start finding greater value for their tax dollar elsewhere. Hopefully the leaders of this community realize this fact before it is too late.
Constance Spicuous Consumption
Constance,
I guess when pro-turf people kept saying that the turf project "is in the comprehensive plan" they figured that no one would actually read it! Did they expect everyone to just say, "Oh, I'll shut up about this now since it's in the plan..."?
Because of what I observed with the misrepresentation by a Commissioner regarding the Environmental Sustainability Board's support when, in fact, they weren't included it got me thinking. I won't take anything coming out of anyone's mouth at face value anymore. It's not reliable information. The presentation yesterday by the installation consultant was not at all reassuring. There are so many unanswered questions here that there is no way anyone could justify moving forward in good conscience.
-Charlotte Stephenson
I went back to the April 8 Commission meeting video and asked during Citizens Comments about the Dick's Sporting Goods donation at the six minute mark. Steve Silverman said that Dick's wrote a check for $5000. Yet, when I look at the RTK, page 11 of the RTK shows correspondence from Dick's on Thursday, April 10 that the check should be in hand by April 14. Gee, did I remind Mr. Donnellan to collect? I don't think Steve Silverman would tell me something that wasn't true.
Elaine
I read that Comprehensive plan earlier in the year and it didn't have the elaborate plan for artificial turf, lighting, parking, etc. I inquired about this with Keith McGill and he wasn't sure when the edits were made or by whom because he said it was a 14 month process.
So, in my view, forget about the comprehensive plan as an argument for turf. The commissioners and rec guy can put whatever they want, whenever they want, and say "it is what it is".
According to Livestrong there is quite a bit of latitude in high school soccer field diemsions:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/404575-size-of-olympic-soccer-field-vs-high-school-soccer-field/#page=4.
8:33/:34 needs to fact up their "facts" if they want to be taken seriously.
Me. Stephenson, if this project goes forward, every single person who has direct influence in the way the municipality is governed should be dismissed. Shameless and disrespectful behavior is not acceptable.
Constance Spicuous Consumption
Elaine,
I'd ask the commission why we haven't heard from a board of medical and/or public health professionals.
ACHD just hired a new epidemiologist and if you look at what she studies, it speaks volumes about Allegheny County and the environmental health concerns we have here.
Note of translation for anyone that is new to these issues: Allegheny County Health Department is hiring someone to keep track of how sick environmental health hazards are making residents here. She has already tackled lead exposure, air pollution and asthma extensively.
By the way, if it weren't for our new ACHD leadership for outside of Pittsburgh, we probably wouldn't have this new epidemiologist. It takes outsiders to wake everyone up from their 1970s slumber.
Chief epidemiologist appointed at Allegheny County Health Department
April 25, 2014 10:37 AM
LuAnn L. Brink
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
A new chief epidemiologist has been appointed at the Allegheny County Health Department, where she will oversee the development of the agency’s surveillance systems, including health and disease monitoring, health director Karen Hacker announced today.
LuAnn L. Brink has worked previously for the health department as an epidemiology manager from 2004 to 2008, supervising disease outbreak investigations, conducting environmental hazard assessments and developing active surveillance systems for monitoring hospital emergency department visits, according to the department.
She currently works for the University of Pittsburgh Graduate School of Public Health, where she served as co-director for the **Academic Center of Excellence to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Environmental Public Health Tracking Network**. She worked extensively on various environmental issues including **lead exposure, air pollution** and asthma,** the health department said.
In her new role, Ms. Brink will oversee the department’s Bureau of Epidemiology and Biostatistics.
Ms. Brink has a doctorate in philosophy and a master of public health degree in epidemiology from Pitt and a bachelor’s degree from the University of Notre Dame.
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/news/health/2014/04/25/Chief-epidemiologist-appointed-at-Allegheny-County-Health-Department/stories/201404250162#ixzz2zwJ3monn
There are so many loose ends in the way the commissioners are operating on this 'plan' that its immpossible for anyone following it closely to believe their facts.
Furthermore why all the secrecy? What is is, the Manhattan Project? Are we afraid that the Axis Powers of USC, Cranberry and Peters will get wind of our super secret SAB bomb?
We're talking about fixing up our spots fields for Christ sake, can't our officials do it in the Sunshine?
I'd like to tweak my comment at 12:39 just a bit.
I could buy into installing quick drying, natural grass fields at WC/M and Mellon because these are our two most visible and central locations.
Plus they should make they'd make the realtors happy and perhaps help some Washington Road businesses like Betsy's, Mineo's, Il Pizziolio with after game patrons.
But I could also see the improvements being made at WC/Bird or WC/Robb Hollow.
Robb Hollow especially if it allowed us to get rid of the McNeilly boondoggle.
I don't buy into the claim that we need more fields although we do need better cared for fields.
The number of fields were sufficient when we had a K-12 population of around 8,000 in the '70s. Today, we have 5,200 and its falling, plus in the 60s and 70s kids actually got out and played baseball and football-- alot. May not have been organized sport, but they used the fields.
Today, unless mommy and daddy drag them to scheduled practices and games the fields sit empty.
I noticed on mtlsd.org there is a PR story about the Markham students planting a Red Maple tree on the playground for Arbor Day.
Maybe for Earth Day they could plant a rubber tire and a plastic milk jug on the ball field to represent planting artificial turf at Wildcat/Middle field.
That is a great and very creative idea, 8:20 AM ! However, while the MLPD are not but should be ticketing illegal parking on and all over the grass in the Wildcat off street parking area, Donnellan would have them immediately cite anyone placing a tire and milk jug on or around a field.
Today, Mt. Lebanon is celebrating Earth Day in the Main Park. It starts in four minutes. I understand that anti turf stickers will be available. Also, sign the petition that has been started.
Earth Day 2015, the Recreation Department will have a booth set up and manned by Chip Dalesandro, David Donnellan, and Dave Franklin to talk about how green and safe plastic turf is. Warning: Don't take any photos.
Elaine
Elaine - aren't they there today begging for donations for the green and safe plastic turf ?
Elaine...have someone get any printed material being offered by the Chip/Dave/Dave "Turf Table" !
No, silly. That is all done with the over 8000 email list in the Recreation Department.
When I was at the "not for the general public" turf project informational meeting and before I was threatened with wiretapping charges, I noticed the lonely (1) sign at Dixon Field. The sign ordinance was amended for what? One stinkin' sign? Even Dick's Sporting Goods didn't want a sign.
Elaine
So 10:34, will Donnellan call the police on the commissioners and himself once the artificial turf is installed?
That is exactly what they'll be doing—
placing old worn out tires and plastic on the field.
Ironic isn't it- the progressives go to great lengths to indoctrinate our kids about "respecting nature", "minimizing our carbon footprint", not filling up landfills (right Kristen?), protectimg the water then turn around do exactly the opposite.
Want a real education kids... in the very next class where the teacher begins to spin the "green" agenda, put 'em on the spot and ask them to defend artificial turf.
Oh by the way, don't fall for that bull that natural grass fertilizers pollute too.
Ask them for real numbers. Ask how much oil, chemicals and CO2 is produced in the creation of plastic grass!
Start to think and discover for yourselves kids... then you'll get a real education.
Anyone giving giving odds on a photo of artificial turf table showing up in the propaganda rag-- mtl magazine?
Ironic, a table promoting artificial turf at an Earth Day Celebration, one has to just love the stupidity in this town.
I wonder, while the Markham educators were indoctrinating the kids, did they happen to fill them in on how many trees they'd have to plant to counter the effects of artificially turfing a sports field?
Better start eating your Wheaties, you young athletes. You'll need to plant over 1,800 according to researchers.
Happy Arbor Day!
One red maple tree planted at Markham School, 1860 more trees to go!
Elaine
This just in.
Elaine
"This is an important notice from LeboALERT.
Earth Day in Mt. Lebo NOW @ Mt. Lebanon Park thru 3 p.m. Ribbon cutting for new
accessible playground equipment @ 1 p.m. Music, food, shopping, fun."
Elaine and fellow Bloggers:
The wiretapping charges were dropped in SF. http://www.thealmanac.net/article/20140417/NEWS/140419954/1001#.U1ve0K1dWGI
Headlines...BEATING BULLYING
The student used his iPad to record two students bullying him during math class. Courtesy:The Almanac
Videotaping bullying is not committing wiretapping. Mr. D'allesandro is not up to date on his current affairs. He can and should have been videotaped when he was bullying you Elaine.
Thank you for posting that link, 12:37 PM. I don't always get The Almanac delivered. Here is the article saved in Google Docs. Beating Bullying, Charges on SF victim to be dropped
FYI, I wasn't videotaping, just taking photos. I didn't even make a podcast, although it would have been priceless to have my digital recorder picking up his "nonsense" when he "confronted" me. There were quite a few people who witnessed his behavior. I put away my iPad, because in that split second, it was either taking the risk of it being knocked out of my hands, or protecting the photos that I had just taken of my grandchildren at Easter.
Elaine
Just came from the Earth Day celebration and the No artificial turf table is doing quite well.
If the turfers had a table it was just as stealthy as their plan.
Does calling unfairly over-assessed residents "greedy" and telling them they do not pay their "fair share" count as name calling and bullying? Funny charge coming from the deadbeat commissioners who do not pay an equal share - let alone a fair share - compared to their neighbors who are over-assessed, often at the aggressive instance of the hired-guns of the very commissioners who posture and presume to lecture those who pay more per square foot in property taxes. It is time to call the game. It is time to stop the rhetoric and go to the substance of the matter. It is time to acknowledge that the emperor wears no clothes!
Earth Day presented a terrific opportunity to collect anti-sports turf signatures. Most people weren't aware of the project and those that were knew little about the details. A few of the folks who signed are also newcomers.
Only two people gave me flack, one yelling soccer Dad (I actually felt sorry for him that he was so out of sorts) and one woman who said she was involved with this a long time ago.
MTLHS students signed and put their stickers on. One graduate is going to write about her experience on the HS turf including turf burn. Moms said they wouldn't allow their children to play on it.
This community if filled with people who are interested in what is going on, when they know what is going on.
-Charlotte Stephenson
Correction: This community IS filled....
-Charlotte Stephenson
Hallelujah....let the sun shine in !
Hmm...could Mt Lebanon baseball be trying to improve this:
http://multimedia.mtlsd.org/Play.asp?342733829089034!4
I just wonder.
President: Chip Dalesandro chip142@verizon.net
General Counsel: David Franklin
davefranklin4@gmail.com
Such a pleasant day and pleasant event and still a resident can't step back, exchange pleasantries with a neighbor that doesn't see eye-to-eye with them.
Such a shame, such a waste.
5:07pm,
Thank you for the link.
anyone interested in reporting this to the RIAA (like I did), go here:
https://www.riaa.com/reportpiracy.php
The MtL Home Rule Charter states this re: health and safety:
Authority of County Health Department. It is hereby declared to be the intention of the Municipality that the Municipality will not exercise any of the public health functions vested in it by law and is subject to the jurisdiction of the Allegheny County Department of Health.
http://mtlebanon.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View/3873
The next public Allegheny County Board of Health meeting is scheduled for Wednesday, May 7, 2014 at 12:30 p.m.
The Board of Health meeting will be held in the Conference Room, Building 7, Clack Health Center, 39th and Penn Avenue, Lawrenceville (See map below).
Did Dick's Sporting Goods get those 8,000 email addresses for a $5,000 check?
That is an excellent question. Ask it on Monday night. If you don't think you will get an honest answer, then file a Right To Know. But you can't ask it in a question. Let us know what you find out.
Elaine
10-4, to unpublished comment.
Thanks.
Elaine
Question Elaine.
You write that their is one lonely sign at Dixon.
At a discussion several weeks ago, the commissioners were still debating the sign material and pricing.
Did I miss the commission vote that established the specifications and rates for the field signs?
Or is this one more case where proper procedures are ignored?
The sign ordinance may be amended. The sign that is there is in compliance, but now they are considering use of a mesh fabric type of sign. This is a case of never being satisfied with what they ask for.
Elaine
They were also debating not only the type of sign, but the rate schedule.
Things like the sign production costs and discounts for long term sign commitments.
5:07pm, not making sense what you're saying. The video is for the high school program, not the baseball association. Last time I checked, neither of the two you name are directly associated with the high school program.
So as you hear or read about the candidates for governor wanting to send more and more money to k-12 schools and commissioners wanting to buy $1 million wprth of artificial turf... you might want to ask 'where does the money come from?'
Yes, I know, the Commonwealth Foundation is a right wing group, but USA Today certainly isn't and what about Standard &Poor's?
http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/policyblog/detail/sp-worried-about-pennsylvanias-overspending
"Standard & Poor's is sounding the alarm, once again, on Pennsylvania's record of overspending. A new S&P report singles out the commonwealth for not putting our fiscal house in order, spending more than revenue, and not preparing for the next downturn in the economy.
As USA Today notes:
"Of the states singled out by S&P, the State of Independence has the largest projected state reserve decline: 83.8%. The problem is the budget is out of whack, S&P says. "The budget is not structurally balanced and relies on one-time savings, deferrals and other measures that add uncertainty," S&P says, adding that it "could leave the state ill-prepared for a downturn."
As we noted previously, the state has beenspending more than revenue for 6 consecutive years now (see chart below) and has yet to completely close the budget gap left by Gov. Rendell. Moreover, with rising pension costs, the funding gap is predicted to grow.
For recommendations on how to build a better fiscal foundation for our future, check out our latest policy report, Blueprint for a Prosperous Pennsylvania."
These are DEMOCRATS people!!!! They have to make sure that the signs can only be printed by "certain" like-minded printers. Or should I say Printer... Dave's friends like himself need "special" rules so they get a job. Don't expect to see these rules either. There's NO corruption here... Not even a smidgen! Right Dave B.? Prove it by having an outside audit with NO connections to you and your friends.
Dave Brumfield prays to the alter of obama. Only hope Mt Lebanon has is Miller or Smith quit or move up and Brumfield takes their place. There are enough stupid people around here that vote straight "D". Don't be surprised if Brumfield makes Mt Lebanon tax payers pay for his kid's college educations. He'll vote himself a new entitlement and of course the other democrat mules will follow. Sort of like the missing Parking Ticket money!
Weird but you never hear the baseball 'people' talking about an indoor facility. It's only the soccer and lacrosse loons. Earlier today a neighbor told me that tax payers pay to send Mt Lebanon High School baseball players south for training. Is this true? What other sports teams are we forced to pay for fancy vacations?
I was torn about publishing the 8:52 PM comment. I have not been publishing many of the negative comments about Dave Brumfield up until now. Yes, believe it or not, Dave, I have been kind to you. But then when I told you what happened to me at the concession stand, you turned away. What the hell?
Elaine
I think I have shared this previously, but since there are so many new Cedar, Vee Lynn, etc. readers who are concerned about flooding, I thought it should be shown again. Southmoreland tackles flood-damaged turf
For those who were not at the Planning Board meeting or the "not for the general public" meeting, residents living on Cedar Blvd. said that FEMA rezoned some of their properties as flood plains.
Elaine
To be fair, I still maintain that it isn't R or D's in this town. Kelly Fraasch told me to call 911. She is a Democrat. I am friends with quite a few D's. I don't hold that against them. :) I will still ask for resignations tomorrow. I don't care what political party they are. They are bullies. 7:56 PM has it right.
Elaine
Ahhhh yes, Elaine at 10:19 PM, but you know of course that the multitude of rain gardens they plan to install all along Cedar will drain all that flood plain water. And they will prevent the already overloaded storm water pipes from creating even more flooding. And it has absolutely nothing to do with turfing fields or constructing parking lots.
At least that's what we will be told by our credibility-challenged local government. And pigs fly in the bubble too, don't you know.
Please, if you will, stop blaming democrats. This is about the madness associated with youth sports, and the corruption of creating a new board and 6 months later, listening to the advice of a select few from that board, to outlay at LEAST 1 million for synthetic turf field on what is already the crown jewel field in Mt Lebanon.
This field should be protected like a scarce natural resource in a community that is "99% built out" (quote from Post Gazette interview with Deiseroth in relation to storm water issues).
Where are the Mt Lebanon historians? When else, in the history of Mt Lebanon, has a brand new board been awarded $750,000 combined with donations from the elected official(s) and support of the entire municipality for their project, while at the same time dismissing public input, transparency, and the input of the other dozen boards?
This is poor governance on steroids.
Please ask for information about a retaining wall. I just learned from National Geographic last week that Pittsburgh is a serious hot spot for landslides.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/04/140422-surveying-american-landslides-interactive/
The Lebo people need to see all the plans that will be shared during the bid process before they go out to bid.
THANK YOU, 11:24 PM!
Elaine
11:24PM, let's list a few of the various Mt. Lebanon Boards that were not involved in this turf boondoggle, but should have been: the Planning Board (it was described to them as informative, but not allowed to give opinion or recommendation), Zoning Hearing Board, Environmental Sustainability Board, Parking Facilities Advisory Board, Parks Board and Community Relations Board immediately come to mind.
Of course, the Commission majority have informed us that they do not have to accept or abide by Board opinions or recommendations because they, as the Commission being elected officials, make all the final decisions.
9:06 Traffic board, Historic Preservation board...
Wow 11:24, that would be government bureaucracy at its worst!
Completely agree with 11:24. These grass fields should be protected and treasured for the scarce natural resource that they are in a community as built out and densely populated as Mt. Lebanon. As a first ring suburb we should be protecting every inch of green space that we have left.
I'd like to thank the Democratic Committee of Mount Lebanon for electing commissioners that are embarrassing our community. Thanks a bunch Tommy.
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