For those of you not at the Commission Discussion Session last night, you missed a lively discussion about block party fees. Unfortunately, my recorder went on the fritz, so I can't post the podcast. Bonnie VanKirk proposed a $50 fee for block parties, to pay for Public Works to drop off and pick up the saw horses. Matt Kluck, Bonnie VanKirk and Joe DeIuliis agreed to charge $25. Dave Brumfield objected because having block parties in Mt. Lebanon is such a positive activity which brings neighborhoods together. According to Tom Kelley, we had around 105 or 107 block parties last year. Based on a $42 million budget, $2500 or so is such a small expense that it is hardly worth discussing, Dave felt. Joe DeIuliis said we could cut back on roads. By this time, it was almost 11:30 p.m. The final vote (5:3) was to charge $25 for block parties. I wonder what would happen if people just blocked the roads with chairs or put up their own barriers.
It was also brought up last night that the Youth Sports Alliance does not contribute to municipal fields as Dave Brumfield had pointed out at a previous meeting. Steve Feller verified that using municipal fields does cost taxpayers since there are no fees being charged.
22 comments:
"Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Should five per cent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman
If you drive a car, I'll tax the street,
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat.
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat,
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet.
Don't ask me what I want it for
If you don't want to pay some more
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Now my advice for those who die
Declare the pennies on your eyes
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
And you're working for no one but me."
- George Harrison
Mr. Harrison, you're back!
Elaine
Why don't they just tap the Stormwater Slush Fund. They seem to do it for other things.
THEY WON'T TAP THE STORM WATER FEE BECAUSE THE D. A. S. WANT SERVICES WITHOUT PAYING FOR THEM, RIGHT DAVID?
ALL DEADBEATS WANT SOMETHING MORE FOR FREE.
YOU ALL SAW THE PATHETIC FUND RAISER - WHERE THEY RAISED FEES ON PARENTS OF YOUTH ATHLETES INSTEAD OF HAVING A REAL FUND RAISING EFFORT LIKE THE LIBRARY, THE DENNIS THEATER, AND THE PUBLIC SAFETY BUILDING.
THEY RAISED THE FEES $100,000 AND FORGOT TO INCLUDE $125,000 FROM THE SOCCER ASSOCIATION
WE ARE GETTING TWO NEW SOCCER FIELDS. WHERE IS THE $125,000 FROM THE SOCCER ASSOCIATION TO BUILD THOSE FIELDS?
THE DEADBEATS ARE KEEPING THE MONEY FOR THEMSELVES AND SOME COMMISSIONERS ARE PULLING THEIR OWN PERSONAL AGENDA TO BUILD 2 SOCCER FIELDS ON THE CHEAP.
Wasn't it nice of Joe to vote another fee before he sells his house and moves?
Yes, it is for sale on Caldwell bankers website - if you want to pay REAL property taxes in Lebo, Joe's house can be had for $615,000 - a real bargain down from $674.000.
If you want to say, thank you, to Bonnie and Kluck you can stay home from the block party this year and avoid the new municipal street-barrier tax.
Mr. Ewing, you've outdown yourself.
For the last couple of years you've been shouting at me that the sports associations need to pay for the fields. I could waste days going back through old comments and finding all of your tired "deadbeat" references.
Fast forward to the last few weeks and there are now proposals on the table that will require significant user fees (virtually unprecedented in Lebo) and other contributions from these groups. However, even with these concessions (that you have begged for), you now seem to be complaining that the families are paying these fees. Isn't that what you have been asking for all along? If the users aren't paying, who on earth should? Who else is there Mr. Ewing? Do you seriously still believe that these associations are sitting on make believe bags of money that they are withholding at the expense of the families that pay registration fees? Seriously?
As for the soccer association's funds, do you for a fact know that there have been no discussions as to how those funds should be contributed? Do you know for a fact that there have been no discussions about applying those funds to improve Bird or to add amenities at McNeilly?
Of course you don't.
Dave Franklin
Well, why don’t yinz all jist putcher chairs out front n call it the block party? Yinz kin play botchi ball n dat! Have someone pick up those Primanti sandwiches and make chipped ham sandwiches? Why do yinz need fancy block parties in the first place? Spit some watermelon seeds and throw water balloons! Wear a babushka! Hec’ save the $25 for the Stiller games!
-Stanley Zellersowich
I suppose I am equally confused about anyone being upset about a $25 block party charge. In connection with the McNeilly debate and other field issues, I've been told by just about everyone on this blog that the majority's tax dollars should not pay for the whims of a small group of users. In response, I asked for those same folks to tell me where else in our community user fees should be charged - after all in Lebo we have plenty of services and amenities that are used by a few and not for all. Generally, I got no response.
Now, the Commission has created this block party fee and all of the sudden the whims of the small group should trump the majority. Some people are willing to make an 8 yr old pay an extra $50 to play soccer, but its somehow unfair to make a entire street kick in $25 to have the public works department to drop of and pick up the horses. Personally, I was surprised to learn that we don't already charge a fee for block parties.
Look, I'm not un-American. I certainly understand and appreciate the importance of the block party. But if we all agree that the coffers of Lebo are no longer deep enough to cover "fluff" and that the residents/users need to contribute over and above their tax dollars for things that they want (rather than need) then why stress over a $25 or even $50 fee that will be divided up amongst 20 or so households? Tossing in $2 for the annual block party hardly seems outlandish and I am willing to bet that no neighborhood will cancel or significantly alter its plans for the annual bash.
I understand that the receipts from this fee may be so insignificant that it's probably not worth collecting, and at first glance this argument seems logical. However, when you consider that Lebo strokes a ton of $5000 checks for a lot of worthwhile things, it's nice to know that with little or no effort we can collect some money so that one of those worthy causes doesn't get chopped in the future.
Dave Franklin
David,
The municipality receives no fees for the use of their athletic fields because deadbeat athletic supporters like you are too cheap and too lazy to do any fund raising work.
The municipal budget is still out of balance because of cheapskates like you and because some commissioners are pushing personal agendas instead of cutting costs,
One cost cut can be no delivery of street barriers - just park cars and block off the street for the party.
A better cut would be for you to get off your lazy duff and do a real fund raising effort instead of putting down everyone else you need to recognize how cheap you really look, David.
Now about that $125,000 the Soccer Association is sitting on - If you took that $125,000 and added the $100,000 in fee increases you would have a $225,000 base to challenge the community to a decent match and get a fund real raiser going.
Put-up or Shut-up, David
Mr. Franklin, you make an excellent point and I agree with your comment. You can't demand one group pay more and at the same time argue you should pay less.
What I don't understand is why this surge in fees? $25 here for block parties, $8 a month for rain water, proposals for student parking and fees for AP courses. Higher parking fees. It goes on and on.
Have we reached a stage where we just want too much? Has Mt. Lebanon reached a tipping point where the legacy cost and new desires are outpacing the mature, built-out community's ability to find new sources of revenue?
Is the bickering simply an affect of the bad economy or has our community reached breaking point?
Giffen Good
One last thing, if you want to complain about pitching in 2 bucks towards the block party fee consider the following line items from the current proposed budget:
1. Support for mentally and physically disabled children in Lebo to attend Camp AIM $1,500
2. Weekly business district street and sidewalk sweeping $1,980
3. Curb Repair and Patching $1960
4. West Penn Tennis Tournament $2,000
5. Washington Rd, Beverly Rd and Clearview Commons Christmas decorations $3,260
6. Washington Road Planters $4000
7. Historical Society $5,000
8. Mt. Lebanon Partnership $5,000
9. Mt. Lebanon Village $5,000
With a $25 block party fee we can cover the entire cost of 1, 2, 3 or 4. With a $50 block party fee we can cover the entire cost of any one of these . . . all of which I'm sure most people would agree are important to the community.
Just a thought.
Dave Franklin
Mr. Good, I think you're right in one respect and I think the jury is still out in another. First, the legacy costs (things like parades, free block parties, Xmas lights, etc) have probably caught up to us, particularly with the rising cost of everything else. So we probably need to start looking at how best to afford what we want.
Where I think the jury is still out, is on the issue of whether or not the community will freely accept a roster of new fees. I've long argued that the residents of Lebo have never really been asked to pitch in over and above their tax dollars, particularly for things that are indeed "extras". Don't get me wrong, we have a number of generous folks who give of their time and their money to make Lebo special. And these folks do it a lot without asking for anything in return. However, I think we can agree that such a group is indeed the minority. Most of us show up at the parade or at Light Up Night with no appreciation for the cost and effort involved. We just take it for granted. A year or so ago when the Memorial Day Parade was temporarily cut from the budget, everyone proclaimed the sky was falling. However, I made the argument that if we as a community can't figure out a way to fund the parade outside of the budget, then we're not the special community we claim to be. The parade was ultimately added back to the budget, but I think the same is true in this instance. If people want to run for the hills because their annual block party now has a $25 fee attached, perhaps our neighborhoods aren't as unique and special as we think.
Contrary to what you've read here, under the various field proposals, the sports groups will have to step up. We will probably be forced to raise registration fees for our parents and I'm sure that the municipality will impose additional "rental" charges for a day's or an hour's use of time. Those new costs will have to come from somewhere. Under these same proposals, if we want to add bleachers or a scoreboard, we'll have to pay for them. I'm cautiously optimistic that these new fees and expenses will not ruin our great sports groups. I'm optimistic because I sense that most parents in Lebo generally try to do right by their kids (even if it involves some sacrifices). For those families that are stretched to thin, I'm also optimistic that us "deadbeats" will do as we have done in the past and step up to make sure that no kid gets left out.
Dave Franklin
I have been getting private emails about the latest block party fee.
1. It is another hidden tax.
2. People in Virginia Manor don't have block parties. They hire caterers.
3. If we offer food to the Public Works crew, will they waive the fee?
4. Does this mean that we will be paying for fireplace inspections by the fire department or child safety seat checks by the police department next?
5. Mt. Lebanon has gone too far.
Elaine
Mr. Franklin,
I see on your post:
3. Curb Repair and Patching $1960
The Storm Water Fee totaling over $$1,400,000 has been diverted into Curb Repair in the amount of several hundred thousand dollars.
The Commission taxed our churches to fix curbs and to keep water from running to Dormont and Castle Shannon and they still haven't a clue how to balance the Budget with new athletic facilities.
If your area of expertise does not include fund raising why not ask Bonnie to raise the funds to fund McNeilly instead of asking her neighbors for nickels and dimes on a new non-deductible street-barrier tax?
Personally, I have absolutely no problem with a fee for a block party, if it involves the Municipality providing services to effect it. I have made the point on numerous occasions, on this Blog and Blog Lebo, that a local government's obligation to its residents is to provide police and fire services, and to see to the needs of infrastructure. And for the record, Mr. Franklin has, in the past, asked me if I would charge a fee for, as an example, a library card, and I have answered "yes" - in clear terms. Lots of towns out West do this and have not impoverished their residents. I have also expressed my opinion, openly and without reservation, that I would charge fees for sports field usage, swimming pools, and other venues owned by the Municipality and offered primarily for entertainment - and, yes, I'm aware we do this to a certain extent already.
With respect to most of the line items in the proposed Municipal budget adduced by Mr. Franklin in his 10:08am post, if I am to be consistent in my views then I would have to oppose them, unless they are related to the items I have heretofore mentioned; items #2 and #3 qualify because they involve the Municipality's infrastructure. As to the other items in that list, while it may seem heartless to oppose spending public money for Christmas decorations or flowers, etc., these kinds of things are not essential services; but I am confident that, with the right campaign, enough voluntary contributions could be gleaned to pay for them.
I certainly can't and won't speak for others, but for me, Mr. Franklin's observation that "...I've been told by just about everyone on this blog that the majority's tax dollars should not pay for the whims of a small group of users" is spot-on correct! As to what other services are open to fees, I think the bigger question is, "What other services should the Municipality be providing, at a fee or not, in the first place?"
Richard Gideon
Mr. Good, I guess the folks who have chosen to email Elaine fall into the category of residents who think that all of the nice stuff that makes Mt. Lebanon unique just happens . . . overnight . . . for free. Oh well.
PS: The Annual Virginia Manor Halloween block party is a blast. No caterers, unless you consider some take out pizza to be "catering". Every family throws in $20 and most people bring something too. Really fun night for kids and the adults, and I hope it sticks around for a long time. I'll gladly cover the public works fee for as long as I live there.
Dave Franklin
Dave, the people who have chosen to email me know that I will deliver their messages without revealing their identities. I think in some of their cases, they would fall under the category of not making ends meet. Look at the poll to see that presently, only 17% of the votes are from people who have more money than ever. 41% are drowning. It is just another nail in the coffin.
I personally don't care if we have a block party tax, since our last block party was twenty years ago. Since we have more renters than ever before, we have neighbors moving in and out constantly.
Elaine
Mr. Franklin, I can't argue with your observations except for this -"Where I think the jury is still out, is on the issue of whether or not the community will freely accept a roster of new fees. I've long argued that the residents of Lebo have never really been asked to pitch in over and above their tax dollars, particularly for things that are indeed "extras".
You see I think there is a huge misconception that unless you belong to one of the "cliques" and recognized you're not pitching in. I know a number of people whom have put in long hours, contributed services, money or both and do so anonymously. They do it, not for the recogniction, not for accolades but because its the community thing to do. Are there slackers, probably but I'm not going to judge that.
Now as to whether the community is prepared to accept new fees! I for one might, if we hadn't wasted so much money up to this point.
The purchase of the McNeilly or Twin Hills properties for instance.
Or the school board suing the municipality over zoning ordinances when they could've simply complied in the first place.
Considering charging students for parking in school lots their families pay for while also contemplating paying $20,000+ for teacher parking while the HS is built is insulting.
I might accept some field maintenance or upgrading even in this economy, but overpaying for property that is of dubious value and then throwing good money after bad TODAY is maddening.
Hell, the municipality can't even pave existing streets without floating bonds to do so. That's nuts!
Giffen Good
Mr. Good, I can't disagree. I think had the plans to develop McNeilly and Twin Hills occurred contemporaneously with Reid acquisition it might have been a great idea. Unfortunately, that didn't happen and everyone seems to have an opinion as to why or why not. Frankly, I don't think it's worth debating so long after the fact. I also think that a number of folks would just as soon forego McNeilly and spend that money or some portion of it on existing fields. You can probably include me in that camp at this point. I appreciate Dan and Dave giving it a shot and I was happy to support those efforts. However, as we saw, those efforts fell short. I think there's still hope for some sort of field project, but I'm not sure it needs to include McNeilly.
Would the person who submitted the last comment please identify yourself? Thanks.
Elaine
Mr. Franklin, I wasn't suggesting we debate the Twin Hills/McNeilly purchases any more. Just recognizing that a substantial sum of money that might have been put to better use is gone.
Existing field improvements perhaps might have been a better path. That is the whole point I believe, to discuss these ubjects here. Are our elected representatives making wise choices, can we offer them opinions and sometimes professional advice. Unfortunately, every discussion seems to draw up sides.
The $113 million initial HS that failed for example. There were warnings that weren't heeded. It boiled down to a nasty battle between proponents vs. opponents. The district could've slowed down and saved some money and effort. They didn't and now they, Celli and construction companies have to labor through the process once again. Not very efficient!
And yes, Dan and Dave deserve appreciation for their efforts to make it work.
Giffen Good
There's $4000 in the budget for Washington Road planters?
I did not know Jimsonweed seeds were that expensive.
David Huston
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