I am at the meeting right now, but I wanted to include this quick post. Dave Brumfield said that he will not support fields for Robb Hollow. There are some other components of Robb Hollow that he would support, which he has not revealed yet. He will support School in the Park, as well as other improvements up to $730,000.
Too bad, sports people, but evidently you don't need more fields. Kelly just proposed addressing drainage for Wildcat and Middle. John Bendel and Kristen Linfante would not support that. Dave Brumfield did not say either way since there were two commissioners who were against it already. So, no new fields and no drainage improvements for Wildcat and Middle. I don't get it.
Update:
Kelly also wants the words, No Turf, added to the verbage of the bond. The commissioners will support that.
67 comments:
As a Mt Lebanon.resident of 35 years and a second generation Mt Lebanon homeowner I would like to thank Commissioner Brumfield for taking this courageous position while investing in the education of the children for decades to come.
I got you beat by six years, John.
They are still talking about the bond.
Elaine
OK, the public hearing for the bond is set for Nov. 13. The aggregate principal amount is not to exceed $4.8 million to include improvements to the pool, golf course, Robb Hollow, and Public Works but not to include turf in the municipality.
No field improvements are in the bond.
Elaine
This is a tremendous victory for all Mt Lebanon residents!
Don't be overly relieved. Dollars to donuts they're betting that there will be a 2012 general fund balance surplus sufficient to fund a turf field without the necessity of a bond issue or a 4-1 vote (only a 3-2 vote required for fund balance spending).
I asked John Bendel why he did not want to improve the drainage of Wildcat and Middle. He said that he wanted to turf those fields and to address the drainage would be a waste of money. I asked him how the turfing would be funded. He didn't know, maybe fundraising?
Elaine
I am skeptical. It is not like them to give up so easily.
When does the bus of disappointed YSA members depart ?
- Doubting Thomas
Thomas, I'll be posting the podcast tomorrow morning. You aren't the only one who is skeptical. It is not adding up. Franklin was there tonight. He never spoke. Kristen was quick in her response on the phone about not supporting the drainage issue at Wildcat and Middle. She is for turf too. We know Dave B. is for turf. We heard quite a few residents' sad stories about needing more fields last year. Yet the YSA turned down more fields.
There is something rotten in the state of Denmark.
Elaine
I'd rather see that fund balance used on the pension, especially since this is an issue that John Bendel ran on. I'd be disappointed if Mr. Bendel changed his tune to turf. Funding the pension is a NEED. Installing a turf field is a WANT.
Unbelievable.
Figure it out, Elaine. Four votes needed for a bond issue. Three votes needed some other way. Kristin, Dave, and John are on board. Done deal. We're getting turf on Wildcat and Middle.
President Obama's wisecrack during last week's debate about whose pension was bigger than whose. The subtext was clear: You should resent this rich guy.
But let me tell you what I resent: I resent class warfare, and I resent politicians who ignore the true pension crisis in our society. That crisis has nothing to do with guys (or gals) who got rich through convincing others to buy their goods and services voluntarily, and everything to do with politicians who are forcing the rest of us to pay for the unwise deals they've cut with government union bosses and deadbeat athletic supporters. Thanks commissioners.
For those of you who are disappointed with losing two fields at Robb Hollow, now would be the time to pull out of YSA. Are they representing the membership? Hardly.
Elaine
Let's not be mistaken that Mr. Brumfield only pulled from support of fields because he and his friends didn't get all they wanted and for FREE!
I am trying to sort it all out, 12:17 PM, and I think you are absolutely right. Eco friendly turf with the sports groups paying for most of it was on the table for Robb Hollow. They don't want more fields. They want plastic turf at our best fields and they want us to pay for it. All of it.
Elaine
Raise your hand if you feel like you don't pay enough property taxes.
For your slower readers, like me, can you put together a simple summary? Drainage, bond for pension, eco turf but not turf. I just want to know where this stands.
OK. I'll try. Bill L., please help me with this, if I am wrong.
The commissioners were going to issue a rec bond worth $5.5 million. This was based on Kelly's presentation. She included in her comprehensive plan to improve the pool, golf course, and Robb Hollow. Through many discussions with sports people, she was told repeatedly that there was a shortage of fields in Mt. Lebanon. People like Dave Franklin claimed that turf was the way to go, based on his blog, Lebo Fields and his petition. Kelly had concerns with the turf that the YSA presented, so with John Bendel, they found an ecofriendly turf. The commission would do the prep work and the YSA was to pay for the turf and the maintenance in Robb Hollow. Also, Robb Hollow was getting out of the leaf collection business and Public Works needed a makeover, so Kelly took all this into consideration. Brumfield said that he would not support the athletic fields portion. So the commissioners started to pick apart the rec bond with the largest portion of the bond, $3.3 million for the pool. There was full support. $500,000 was going towards the golf course for either a practice facility or towards Holes 4 & 5. OK, moving forward. Now on to Robb Hollow. The engineer presented options for Robb Hollow. $100,00-125,000 for trails, $264,000 for grassing and fencing Public Works, landscaping along Public Works was $200,000, turfing Robb Hollow - including lights would have cost $2 million. Lighting for parking was $1.165 million. A new road only to the flat area would cost $330,000. Since Dave wouldn't support the fields option, Kelly said that there were complaints about the drainage to Middle and Wildcat Fields. Bendel and Linfante said no and would not support that. Bendel had explained later on that he said no because he wanted to turf those fields. So drainage repairs was out.
After much discussion, it was decided to borrow funds not to exceed $4.8 million. The total came to $4.53 million. The rec bond was for improvements to the pool, golf course, Robb Hollow and Public Works but not to include turf in the municipality. So the Ordinance was introduced. The public hearing is set for Tuesday, November 13, 2012. They are required to advertise, have a hearing, etc.
Does that help?
Elaine
Commissioner Fraasch says on the podcast about wanting to continue with field improvements we should look at Wildcat and Middle because of complaints. She mentions Bird and Brafferton. What else has been done to the fields?
Bird Park Drainage $25,000
Brafferton Field improvements almost $200,000
so theyre in favor of turf and will vote it in at the november meeting or not?
Elaine,
I can't vouch for "Lighting for parking was $1.165 million". Kelly also added a provision to be included in the bond resolution that "no turf" would be funded with bond proceeds, agreed to by other Commissioners. David Donnellan tried to promote a number of additional "amenities" adding up to several hundred thousand dollars more for the pool as his "top priorities" in recreation, which went nowhere. Tom Kelly provided a long list of assorted and necessary equipment & vehicle assemblage and storage uses for the lower Robb Hollow PW acreage for which no other land exists if an athletic field were to be built on it. Contractors would allegedly add 10%-20% to bids if they were not able to park/store vehicles, equipment & materials at the PW site. That seemed to nix further consideration of a lower Robb Hollow field or park use.
Otherwise, it was as you described...bottom line, there would be no athletic fields in Robb Hollow, upper or lower, natural grass or eco-friendly artificial turf, period.
The $4.53 million figure represents the cumulative total of cost estimates for projects agreed to that a bond is to fund. The not to exceed total of $4.8 million in bonds to be issued includes provisions or allowances for bond issuance costs. They expect the actual final issuance will be something less than $4.8 million.
Bill Lewis
No they will not vote for it in November. There is no money for turf fields since it was not included in the bond.
So no turf. Not right now. The three commissioners that want turf will need to figure out a way to fund it. That funding will either come from private funds or from undesignated fund balance. Undesignated fund balance at this time is not enough to turf fields so they are crossing their fingers that they will have enough next year.
What I want to know is, did the YSA and three commissioners turn down the extra field space at Robb Hollow WITH TURF because they couldn't pony up $200,000 in private funds? And if so, didn't the YSA propose raising more than that for turfing Wildcat/Middle anyway?
Since Kelly's cost to turf Robb Hollow was now almost TWICE the YSA cost to turf Wildcat/Middle, I'm not surprised that no one voted for it.
In my opinion, after the estimates for the grass fields doubled in a month, and the bad news kept coming, all of the Commissioners quickly agreed that fields @ RH were a pipe dream. A one lane road in and out, removing 7 acres of trees, cutting the hillside behind Arrowwood, significant retaining walls, no running water, the need for USC approvals all added to the decision to avoid RH as field alternative. A full sized turf field at RH was never a realistic option on the table, from Fraasch or otherwise, let alone one that was capped at a $200,000 contribution.
Ok, now you are twisting things. Brumfield would not support any fields, turfed or grass. Wildcat and Middle are Lebo's best fields. Even Franklin admitted that. His argument was that turf would add more available slots to the schedules. How many slots would have been added with two or three NEW fields? The issue is that a handful of bullies want turf on Wildcat and Middle and that is what they strive to get. Preferably without having to pay for it. You see, YSA may be an endangered species. They are not representing the membership. They are pushing their personal agendas. Even Lacrosse, which Brumfield is on their staff, said that they have to play outside of Mt. Lebanon because of the shortage of fields, and they made the YSA presentation.
I see that a comment just came through saying that RH fields was a pipe dream. That is not true. Stop trying to spin this. You want turf on Wildcat and Middle and you want us to pay for it.
Elaine
I just heard that the Rock Pile is getting turf. Come on!
I am so sick and tired of my tax dollars going to sports. You just had to have new turf at the High School. You just had to have a new athletic wing at the High School. You had $225,000 approved to spend on field upgrades at Bird and Brafferton.
Kelly had worked out a plan to meet your "needs" and it wasn't good enough. I am glad that you shot down Robb Hollow. Now the taxpayers are getting money spent on the rest of us. We should close the book on any more field upgrade discussions. Now turf for the Rock Pile?!?!
Elaine
Let's think about this $1.6m for turfing Wildcat Middle in actual costs. One field. Already exists. No increase in space.
vs.
$1.9m project for Robb Hollow. One eco-turf field, one practice. Extra space. Hum, might have been worth a little extra cost.
Might have, but they shot themselves in the foot like Wildlife Services is known to do. I am so done with field improvements. Enough is enough. We had an opportunity to get a skatepark at virtually no cost to us. I understand that money is still coming into Carnegie for the park. Any more improvements should be done at YSA's expense. Stop being a bunch of deadbeats making empty promises.
Elaine
The District's debt is already out of control. Why are commissioners adding to the problem? It seems we have crony government at everyone else's expense.
I heard from a realtor yesterday that the taxes on houses in Mount Lebanon are killing home sales. Obviously, the YSA doesn't care and neither does the Commission or Board.
P.S. A turfed Rock Pile was part of the deadbeats Public/Private Partnership proposed to the District in the Grogan emails released under the RTK Act. Those emails are all posted on this blog.
The bottom line is - the bottom line! Look at the financials (via IRS 990's) of the various field organizations in Mt. Lebanon and it will become obvious that these sports groups do not have the money to pay for turf - which is why YSA wants the residents to foot the bill. And even perchance they could raise the cash, various sports actors would still prefer that the taxpayers pay for it on the grounds of "public good." This is the single most disingenuous argument the sports cartels make, and they know it! A "turfed" Wildcat field will not increase the value of my home one penny - but it will increase my municipal property tax.
I hope our commissioners have figured out that any sports cartel promise to pay for improvements on public property had best be accompanied by a sound financial balance sheet; otherwise all the residents will get out of the deal is the same thing Charlie Brown gets when Lucy holds the football for him to kick.
Elaine, stop with the nonsense. Did the YSA or sports groups ask for or support $200k at Brafferton? No, that was a Fraasch idea. She spent your money all by herself there.
The $300,000 for tennis? Another one that she boondoggled at no one's request.
As you know, the sports groups advised her that any money spent on RH would not be worth it, given the size and slope limitations. Members of the softball association even offered to meet with her to explain the limitations on this site that they ran into many years ago. Again, she didn't listen.
She also championed the $150,000 in parking improvements at Wildcat, despite advice from several associations.
If you have problems with the money spent on sports and fields lately, look no further than Commisioner Fraasch.
Stop with the nonsense? Sorry, but I don't see it that way. Everything that has been spent was passed by a majority vote. That is true of all forms of government. Kelly is a great commissioner, but you are giving her more power than she actually has.
Elaine
10:22 AM, you were mum on the Rock Pile turf comment. Is that Kelly's doing, as well? Is she to blame for the new turf at the high school? Is she to blame for the over the top spending on the athletic wing at the high school? Stop being such jerks and blaming Kelly for everything. She has spent countless hours with sports people, both pleasant and unpleasant trying to accommodate YOUR "needs."
Elaine
The countless hours line is my favorite. When you ask someone who has met with Kelly, which isn't as big a number as she would have you believe, the one common theme is that "she didn't didn't really want to listen" or "once she learned that my ideas weren't in line with hers, she stopped calling."
As for turf at the Rockpile, that would be smart and it would make sense for the YSA to work with the district to see that it becomes a reality.
Richard, who is paying for everything in the bond (pool, golf, parks)? Who is paying for the Fraasch plan in Brafferton? Who is paying for the quarter of a million plus in tennis improvements? Keep in mind that there are no recommended increases on user fees at these facilities for 2013 despite these upgrades. Please be an equal opportunity critic when it comes to who is paying for what. Tennis just got about $300,000 in improvements with a 6% contribution. If that's the going rate for tax payer money, I'm pretty sure the YSA can cover it. But I'm sure you'd expect more than 6% from them, right?
Save it, spineless blogger. We would be shocked if YSA came up with any money. You have short arms and deep pockets. Or your wallets are at home along with the paperwork from Jan Klein.
Elaine
So we are spending $500K on a training facility at the golf course? There is certainly no conflict of interest there....since that's where Commissioner Kluck gives golf lessons.
Cool Springs is less than 1 mile from the Golf couse and already has a training facility. I'm surprised we don't hear you complaining about that Elaine?
I wonder if Kluck will sue the community again if these dollars go towards improving holes 4 & 5 vs his new training facility.
You're desperate, aren't you, Spineless? I am all for improvements on assets that generate revenue for the community.
Elaine
Given the view previously presented about a realtor and how the taxes effect sales here, don't you wonder why another realtor signed a petition for turf and thus promoted more tax dollars being spent for the sports cartel?
Isn't Cool Springs owned by someone on our school board?
As for turf at the Rockpile, that would be smart and it would make sense for the YSA to work with the district to see that it becomes a reality.
So that is your next move?
The storm water fee ordinance will also generate revenue for the community and is almost as ridiculous as your last comment.
11:33 AM, yes that would be the realtor with the initials V.P. I thought that was a stupid move on her part. People take their business elsewhere over less than that.
Elaine
I'm curious, did Kluck recuse himself on this vote (which included a new training facility at the golf course where he works)?
I find it funny that someone suggests that Kelly didn't listen.
She did. And the YSA was outvoted 2-1. How do I know? Because I have kids on a team that contributes to YSA and there is not a parent that I talked to that wouldn't have wanted more field space. Nobody really gave a crap about turf except for our "leadership".
How do I know she listened to people? Because I am basically a nobody and I called her. She had already talked to a number of people I thought she should talk to. She took the time to explain something to me that I had no time to follow.
The comments about her spending money on stuff we don't need? Seriously? All those were recommended by municipal staff including Feller. Kelly make sure they needed the money at it went there. All the other commissioners followed suit. Plus, have you looked at our parks and our pool? They need upgrades. They have been neglected for years.
Why leadership from the YSA would say that nothing needs done at Brafferton is beyond me. Staff recommended we fix it. Kelly listened. The commission voted unanimously.
The Robb Hollow and Wildcat/Middle fields were cost comparitive. They would cost the same. The things you say about the street, the water, whatever, well, I can tell you from experience that it is no picnic trying to park at Cedar as it stands. I can't imagine how it will be with turf.
The YSA leadership did shoot itself in the foot here. More fields is what we need. Turf would be nice, but additional fields would be a better deal and for the same cost.
Kristen is always quick with her response. And always mad. Someone needs to tell her that not everyone is out to get her or something.
The silly comments from the YSA are coming from the same people who refused to tell their people that there was a plan to do a new field at Robb Hollow and that it could be turfed.
Whatever comes out of the YSA's mouth or keyboard is is either wrong, twisted, or a half truth.
Maybe Kelly can find $400,000 to turf the district's rock pile. We don't want tp pay it. Kelly how is your household budget?
I understand the realtor who signed the turf petition is not a nice person.
re: October 24, 2012 11:06 AM
It is my policy not to directly address anonymous posters. For anyone else interested, I am on record as being opposed to ALL publicly funded forms of entertainment venues in this community. I am on record as having supplied the Municipality studies from the Reason Foundation (I am a sponsor) showing how these venues may be privatized. But the facilities we have now are "done deals" - and it is unlikely the Reason studies will change things at this time. I will admit that PPP's are an initial step in the right direction.
My post dealt with field sports, and I stand by what I said. If this anonymous poster wishes to identify himself I will be happy to respond further. But I will not have words put in my mouth, nor have an intellectual debate with a ghost.
1:57 PM, get help.
Elaine
This summer I was sitting on the bleachers at a baseball game and I turned around and saw Commissioner Fraasch with a notebook talking to parents. She came to me asking questions about turfing Wildcat. I shared my opinion, I think it's a horrible idea. She asked my thoughts about other recreation needs. She took my email and I have heard from her several times.
How many other commissioners were booked solid for a coffee with residents?
The issue at hand is that the sports ringleaders did their members no favors. Even Brumfield is taking the heat for you bullies. Your comments here carry no weight. It is a shame that you are going after Kelly and me. You are going after Kluck and he won't even vote yes for a bond, Dumb ass. Why should he recuse himself?
I guess it will continue with the rock pile. The YSA presentation would not count the rock pile for slots. If you can convince the school district to turf the rock pile, are you still going to want to turf Middle and Wildcat? My guess is yes. We'll have slots for the two year olds. Start 'em young. Don't forget to sign up for those fatherhood tips through football with JBF.
Elaine
@ 2:46
Interesting....can you please share with us what specific questions Kelly asked you?
Richard,
Please tell us how much you property value will increase when we spend $3M to fix the pool?
I only know one person who uses @ on this blog. And that person signed the petition for turf. I can say that your commissioner never asks about recreational needs.
Elaine.
He is not going to answer you because you don't have the kahunas to sign your name.
Elaine
@ Elaine
Wrong again.
Kelly Fraasch is my commissioner.
But nice try.
We all believe you 3:33 !
No need for Richard to answer....we already know the answer.
The operative word in your question is FIX, 3:25 PM.
Elaine
Our community is out of control. I went past the high school today with both WPXI and WTAE parked out front with camera men and reporters interviewing students. No doubt it was over the grinding and drinking of some of our young people as reported in the PG today. But keep on bullying us, guys. Turf is the most important issue around here. Don't fix anything else.
Elaine
Elaine, an $800,000 zero depth entry at the pool is not a repair or a fix. It's a plain old want. Just like a golf practice center or reshaping holes 4&5 (which will add no revenue), lights on 2 tennis courts or trails at Robb Hollow for $500,000.
I believe I have had this discussion with you before. A zero depth entry will help with seniors, those with young children and for the folks with disabilities. I see that as a fix,not a want. Staff already showed how lights on the tennis courts will generate more revenue. Trails at Robb Hollow have more value than you know. I don't know enough about golf to respond. I just know that staff sees putting money into the golf course as a good thing.
Elaine
Realtors who sign petitions for things that other people don't want to pay for isn't being so nice to those who can't afford to pay.
I can see where this is going but I will give you the basic questions Mr. Franklin. Kelly asked my thoughts about the current fields and not just the Cedar Blvd ones. I told her these were the best we have. I did share my concerns with the overcrowding and pointed out the parking trouble.
Kelly asked if I knew about the idea of turf on Wildcat Middle fields. I didn't. I thought it was her idea so I refrained from further comment. Another parent joined the conversation. That parent said we need more fields not turf. I agreed. Kelly asked about the field space near Baldwin. We both told her how expensive it was and it didn’t seem to make sense. Kelly agreed. She also asked about Sunset Hills. Another parent came up and began talking about the turf idea and was rather cross with Kelly. The parent thought Kelly wanted turf and it was the first time I heard Kelly say that she was not in favor of the idea. She said her first priority was the current fields we owned and operated. She talked to parents most of the night. I personally find she is doing an excellent job.
http://davebrumfield.com/
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