The usual sports people were there to speak about turf. I had to save my minutes for deer culling, so I never even addressed turfing a school district field, let alone any Mt. Lebanon field. The sports people supported the YSA proposal and dissed the Robb Hollow plan. Only problem with supporting the YSA plan is that their days may be numbered.
Dave Brumfield made three recommendations for the next Joint Maintenance Agreement.
- Negotiate a longer term
- Have individual groups who want field preferences sign the JMA separately
- Draw up guidelines for using fields. Include field use rules.
112 comments:
I've got a suggestion for the Commission--resign. It's getting as bad as the mockery we call a school board. Bendel decides to chime in on something a year after he's elected and its to support what can only be called one of the dumbest ideas to hit Lebo since the last time it hit Lebo?
As for Linfante, if she's so hot to trot for a bunch of unqualified wanna-be cowboys to start popping off rounds in our community, she needs to fire the first shot and go kill a deer. But as I recall, she's the one who whined about Hoon bringing a bullet to a commission meeting. Typical west coast liberal--dont want to get your hands dirty.
10:21
Such a helpful post - yeah, resign thats the answer. Got any other solutions?
How about each sports group pay directly to the municipality instead of to the school district? The school district can't keep accurate records. Somehow,the independent auditor found the YSA payments are up-to-date, with no accounting irregularities. BTW, same auditor for the old Parking Authority. Now if someone could tell the IRS that their 990s don't match.
Elaine
There is an irony at work here that transcends grandiose school buildings, accounting impaired youth organizations, or "man vs. nature" - it is the fact that more people will vote in the upcoming presidential election than voted in the last Municipal/District contests; despite the fact that a single vote in a presidential race is statistically meaningless while a single vote in a local election has much more weight and might change the outcome. And with some notable exceptions (such as Obamacare), you are more likely to be affected by what local politicians dream up than by anything Washington throws at you.
Just to remind yesterday's "Get over it" poster....the turf issue is far from being dead.
I would recommend eliminating all payments by the YSA. The municipality should be thankful for the thousands of hours that are currently offered by volunteer parents.
David's recommendations may improve the JMA process, but they still do not address the root cause of the issue....limited all-purpose fields and poor field conditions (drainage)!!!
And if Kelly thinks that the issues in Bird Park have been addressed, she is sadly mistaken.
I thought Dave Brumfield indicated last night that a new JMA should be between only the Municipality and the District. I read that to mean that the District can/should deal separately with the YSA if they so desire without Municipal inclusion in a contractural arrangement. If I am mistaken, then that is my recommendation.
We should have no dealings or contractural arrangements directly or indirectly with the YSA. They have repeatedly defaulted in JMA's over the years, represent a classic high credit risk as a result and by their blatant behavior lack any credibility.
What does the Municipality receive in return for providing individual field sports groups priority in field scheduling ? In outdoor tennis, leagues pay a premium fee for reserved court times. In indoor tennis, fees for seasonal subscriptions for high demand prime time hours are higher than for non-prime time hours. Why should a sports group receive exclusive use of a field for an entire season v. the general public if there is no fee paid for such priviledge ? And, should so-called "priority" be limited to less than all, or 100%, of fields and/or field days & times ? What are the rules for golf, rink, paddle tennis, pool, basketball or any non-field sport in Mt. Lebanon ? Or USC, BP, Peters, etc. ?
Bill Lewis
How much are the Rec department's micro-soccer parents paying the YSA to ruin the baseball fields during the fall and winter?
How much do the Cheerleaders pay to the YSA to use the fields?
YSA why not raise the money and turf Mellon as a gift to the school district? It seems like the worst field and the school district can maintain it.
Middle/WC are good grass fields.
I would like to say something completely unpopular but I know I am not the only parent thinking it. I got to enjoy time with my family on Saturday. We didn't have to run to a game, sit there and run to the next one for another kid. I got to do some Halloween shopping, we ate lunch together and enjoyed the nice day. Sometimes a day off from sports is a good thing. I do like the Robb Hollow plan because if it will be anything like Bird Park it will be an asset for the whole community not just soccer.
Just a reminder to the 11:58 poster.
You still don't have the votes.
@2:34
You haven't lived here very long, have you?
This will end up being rubber stamped...just like the JMA....and the raises...and the high school. Should I go on?
What are you going to say to the parents of children who suffer a concussion? Ask Dave Reese about the number of concussions on the high school turf before it was replaced. They were so high he wrote emails about them and the school board adopted a concussion policy relieving students from academic rigor after a concussion injury. Turf is dangerous for concussions. Is that good for kids?
6:09, I've had. 2 kids suffer concussions at Mellon this Fall and another who dislocated his knee cap on the sludge @ Bird. What should I tell their parents!
Dave Franklin
Get insurance ?
Ha, yeah tell em to be in the band.
And turf won't prevent consussions. It actually causes more because its a harder surface than grass. Come on Dave.
Franklin,
Why in the world do you have your kids in sports? There are many other developmental opportunities. You should be more concerned about their well being rather than forcing everyone else to provide perfect world scenarios for sports you or they want to be in. Ever considered orchestra?
The Robb Hollow field plan has nearly doubled in cost since March and before it has been put out to bid. The muni engineer told us last night that we can't hope to grow grass on this land. And the plan will require a 2:1 slope cut and the elimination of 7 acres of trees behind the homes on Arrowwood and Pinewood. So 6:09, 8:25 and 8:33, please attend the meeting in the Commission chambers on Sunday @ 1:00 and tell us all why you think it's a great idea.
Dave Franklin
Commissioners, I have an idea. Why don't you just put in a parking lot there and let us enjoy the rest of the park in its natural state? Why waste money putting in fields? Nobody wants them.
Gee, what should Dave tell the parents then?
Elaine
Deer and Turf.
Can the Commission please just move on from both!
8:09 here.
Dave Franklin, tell the parents of the kids who have concussions that their memory, recall ability, and study skills will be impaired for a period of time. Their ability to do well academically will be impaired.
I talked to a friend this summer who recently regained his health. He had four concussions playing high school football and it left scar tissue on his frontal lobe. He later developed a serious case of epilepsy that was traced back to the concussions. Brain surgery was performed to bring him back to normal. His head was opened and scar tissue was removed from the frontal lobe of his brain.
Guess what? He won't sign a permission slip for his kids to play football.
Knock off the nonsense, Dave. You are a threat to your own children!!!!!!!!
I went on a walk with my daughter on some trails by The Outdoor Classroom in USC. It was beautiful. http://www.theoutdoorclassroompa.org/ I would love to see something like that at Robb Hollow Park. I am so sick of hearing all the whining from Dave Franklin.
Elaine
Yes, Elaine - it is so serene. We like to pack a lunch when we go there. It would be an asset to our community to have our own outdoor classroom, hiking trails and dog friendly environment.
Elaine,
I really like your idea for an outdoor classroom. I also think that if Dave Franklin wants more athletic facilities then we can begin by installing both a dedicated bike lane and a dedicated jogging lane throughout VA Manor.
Of course, we will also need a reserved place on the streets for visitors to park whIle they are there...
It seems like a no brainier. YSA is crumbling. The sports people don't appreciate Kelly's efforts to resolve some alleged field issues. So why bother? A man spoke at the commission meeting last night about how the stadium lights at 5:30 in the morning are intrusive to residents. Put in more fields and you have more neighbors complaining about noise and lights in the wee hours of the morning.
I say quit trying to please an ungrateful bunch.
Elaine
Voting for out door class room which can be utilized by far more people in the community. I wonder why people are so obsessed with sports for their kids. Aren't there any better things to do as a student? Why should I waste my tax on a small portion of hardcore sports fans?
I believe the sports groups do appreciate a majority of Kelly's efforts. However, the proposed Robb Hollow field will not resolve the issue. It will simply create another field with poor conditions.
I actually think the turf proposal would be far more effective to address this issue.
If you build a field on Robb Hollow, the issue is not resolved and we will be addressing this issue over and over again.
Unfortunately you are putting us all in a category with Dave Franklin and YSA as parents of kids involved in sports. We don't all agree with Mr. Franklin. Actually a lot don't.
This is what I want to hear. The way Dave talks and the others he sends to meetings, the public thinks otherwise. Speak up! I wish more like you would come forward.
Elaine
8:26, I'm sure there are plenty of sports parents who don't agree with me or the YSA on this issue. That's fine. My position is simply this - if we are serious about solving the field shortage that that all 5 commissioners believe exists - turfing a field is the most practical, efficient and full proof method by which to do so. And as the the Robb Hollow estimates go up, it appears to a more cost effective solution as well.
What strikes me as a bit odd though is that there has never been a resident speak in favor of Robb Hollow at any of the Commission meetings that I have attended or listened to.
8:26, as a sports parent have you ever participated in a spring or fall scheduling meeting for fields etc? It is a very eye opening experience. Also, all of the associations have discussed Robb Hollow and the turf plan at their meetings. Have you expressed your opinion to the associations that you participate in?
Dave Franklin
Yes, it is unfortunate that when Mr. Franklin puts out a call to all his buddies that only one or two show up. That to me doesn't say the YSA (who Dave thinks he isn't the head of only because his wife's name is on the letterhead) holds the majority opinion on this issue.
It's funny how Dave argued for years about how there was a field SPACE issue. That is, we don't have enough field space to accomodate all youth sports. Suddenly he thinks turfing a field and creating a parking and traffic nightmare on Cedar will solve his problems.
Even the staff at the municipality agreed that there just wasn't enough field space. But adding a field plan with the possible addition of 2 fields somehow isn't good enough to address the field space problem that has been harped on for years?
In addition, you get to beautify a park in Robb Hollow that is essentially a gravel pit. And you get to beautify a space along Cedar at the bottom of the Public Works yard that is an eyesore.
Doesn't anyone remember this letter circulated by the sports groups just a few short years ago:
Fearing that nothing may be done for several more decades to timely address the needs of current and future Mt. Lebanon students and residents as it pertains to the dedication of sufficient resources for improved outdoor athletic facilities, our group is now prepared to take ownership of this matter. In so doing, we are exceedingly confident that as the only group within the community that has commenced mobilizing in support of a private-public partnership to address the challenges of the High School renovation project, we are well postured to respond to the needs of Mt. Lebanon's students and residents. To this extent, we are unlike any other group within the community -- we are committed to putting our own skin in the game, in terms of our collective good will, sweat equity AND millions of private equity dollars.
Dave, where are the millions the sports groups have promised? Mt Lebanon Field Sports Partnership. Yep, that's the one. This is where you run into the wall. There has been no money to the municipality from sports groups for maintaining fields. Yes, the municipality gets some money from the school district but that has been the same exact amount every year for a decade.
Finally, I don't get how a field space problem is not solved by adding more field space. The math there seems pretty simple.
One addition to the previous comment...
Dave Franklin commented on the linked article over at BlogLebo regarding this letter.
His comment was this:
Like it or not, we are at a point where those who step up (with the money and public support) may accomplish their goals faster than those who do not. Talk is cheap and ideas are great -- but the cash to fund those ideas is even better.
@9:08
I'm curious, why would turfing Middle/Wildcat suddenly create a parking nightmare?
I stand by my words. The YSA turf plan includes a significant financial contribution from the sports associations. It would also likely generate corporate commitments given its prominent location. The Robb Hollow plan has no private funding and is not attractive to corporate sponsors.
Dave Franklin
I believe there are a number of people who are fed up with all the turf talk. Dave and Dave, it is obvious that you got to Bendel who wants to look at turf again. May I remind you two that four votes are needed for a rec bond. Because of turf, I fear that the rec bond will be delayed again and nothing will get done. Do you see what you are doing? Why don't you pursue your turf dreams with the govt. body whose auditor found no irregularities with YSA? It sounds like they are your biggest fans. Stop holding up the much needed improvements in Mt. Lebanon. You are not doing yourselves any favors by pushing turf.
Elaine
Elaine, there are 3 Commissioners who would support the full Rec bond with turf and only one who won't. So from where I sit, that lone commissioner is delaying the work to the pool etc by not joining the majority.
It's already a parking and traffic nightmare. That's why you had residents along Cedar attend a meeting a few months back to oppose turfing Wildcat/Middle. There was even an article about it.
Dave F says anecdotally that some of the neighbors on Arrowood would have a problem with Robb Hollow. I doubt this is the case a well designed park behind their house will certainly increase home values. Well, there are many more that ALREADY voiced publicly their dissatisfaction with your turf idea. They did so in a public meeting. They did it because it is a parking and traffic nightmare when multiple practices are happening at the same time. According to YSA, the turf plan will allow for EVEN MORE practices. This will make for an even worse parking and traffic situation if there was turf.
9:44 AM, I would love to know which commissioner you are. There are two commissioners who do not support turf for a rec bond. Pull out the turf issue, so we can get moving.
Elaine
I will answer Mr. Franklin's question. I have been told to shut up about my concerns about turf. If I say anything I am not loyal to the sports program and that means my kid won't play. I have shared my support of the Rob Hollow plan with the Commissioner that proposed it. I think even if it may cost a bit more to do Robb Hollow we should invest in it because the area would benefit the entire community.
9:47, do you know that the Commission just approved spending about $140,000 to create up to 96 paved parking spaces next to Wildcat? Parking is no longer an issue.
I'm pretty sure the folks on Arrowwood have no clue as to what is planned for their backyards as outlined by the engineer on Tues.
I assume that Bendel is looking at turf once again because he finally realizes that it is a viable plan.
Instead of supporting Kluck's no-plan approach, or Kelly's honorable but misguided plan that will not solve the problem, he obviously now sees the merits of the YSA plan.
9:58 AM, I had a feeling it was like that. Just as I waited for all my kids to graduate from Lebo, so that I could express my opinions, I see that it is the same way with sports. How sad for all of us.
Elaine
The YSA plan? You have lost all credibility with all your millions promised. Elaine should keep a running total of all your promises right along with her list of change orders.
10:13 AM, that is an excellent idea. Will someone put together a list and submit it as an anonymous comment? I will start a new list in the sidebar. I won't be able to get to it right away, but I think that would be interesting to keep track of all their empty promises.
Elaine
I have been here for years and plans come and go. The plan discussed Tuesday was not the plan that Commissioner Frasch suggested and we will probably go over several ideas for that area in the coming months. Commissioner Brumfield said he was supportive of the Robb Hollow plan so why is this about Commissioner Frasch? Why is she holding this up? I have seen nothing but progress in recreation come from her. Barely anything has come from the other Commissioners in terms of ideas for recreation.
Misguided? Is Frasch misguided because she doesn't like fake grass? Misguided because she has thought about the whole community and made sure benefits are given to all of us. I attended the meetings where she was not getting full support of funding for parks/parklets. She didn't draw a line in the sand as it appears the sports people are doing. Commissioner Frasch just started asking each of Commisioners who could support each line she proposed. She got 3-4 parks funded that evening. I sat in another meeting and someone asked her about the turf field. She said she had some concerns with not only the field itself but the two locations proposed. She said she wanted to see more fields and found a space to do so. This person (a sports person) had no idea about the possible field space and shared the concerns they had about turf. Misguided no, honorable absolutely. She is doing her job and far better than any other Commissioner I have seen.
I want to see Robb Hollow looked at with a fine tooth comb. We should give it a chance and it appears the Commission (not just Commissioner Frasch) has decided to do just that with the encouragement of Frasch. What if we end up with a spectacular facility for everyone to use? Will we suggest she was misguided then?
In this community we often suggest that we shall all consider things that are 'out of the box' but when someone brings that thought process to the table we squash them like a bug. No wonder the honorable don't run for office.
Why aren't we turfing Mellon? USC has put in a couple turf fields in the past couple years. Oh that's right we are paying for a $113m school and have no money for anything else. Should have thought about that.
The last commenter brought up a good point.
All of USC turf seems to be at school district facilities.
There would be NO fight with the School Board on this issue since they all answered that silly questionairre linked earlier. They would all support it.
What would/could the commission do if the YSA worked with the school district to turf Mellon?
Still a stupid idea, but an easier path give the difference in gene pools between the two bodies.
Hey, I just thought of something. Are we being set up with the PK study identifying donors for the School District and then it will be switched to pay for turf?
Elaine
Elaine,
You should instead keep a running total of the PK dollars donated versus the dollars collected to advertise on the new turf? I wonder who will win....
Turfing Mellon was the original plan of the YSA. Unfortunately, some members of the public and a certain commissioner strongly opposed doing anything with a school field. I don't agree with the us vs. them mentality because all fields are used by both groups - muni programs use school fields and school programs use muni fields. I'm also pretty sure that the residents along Cedar expressed support for turfing Mellon. It's a win-win for everyone, but even the anon posters on this site and Elaine fought me about it when we originally put it on the table. Perhaps they can explain their objection, bu I sense that it invlolves their deep rooted hatred of all things school and not much else.
Dave Franklin
Hey thanks, Dave, Yeah, that's what it is, my deep rooted hatred of all things school. Glad Posti is praying for me.
Elaine
I bet my kid wouldn't have gotten much playing time either, if I still had one in school.
Elaine
Correction, Dave. Did you ever approach the school board directors ? I have no recollection of anyone approaching Mt. Lebanon SD about turf issues being funded through
MTLSD.
- Another hateful anon poster
Dave,
Anon posters and Elaine have fought you for a lot of reasons.
Turf makes sense to you. I get it. You see the good things about it. And yes, there are good things.
But there are also bad things. Cost being one of them. Annual maintenance costs are on par with grass, right? Maybe even a little less. But you have to replace the turf every 7-9 for another capital investment. From a financial perspective, I do not want to float a 25 year bond to pay for 7 years of turf. We will just stack bond after bond after bond on top of one another and it makes no sense.
Annualize the replacement cost of turf, add that to the annual maintenance costs for turf (including disinfecting and specialized equipment), and then you have somewhat of an apples to apples comparison for annual cost to maintain painted artificial turf vs grass. But even you won't do that because the numbers don't break your way...well, let me clarify. If you do the math right, the numbers don't break your way.
I get that we lose a dozen or so dates a year to rain. But even this past weekend the little ones were out there playing on the grass fields a day after heavy rain. I am ok with this tradeoff...losing a few days for each sport per year is worth it to me so that I dont have to have years of stacked bonds paying for a want and not a need.
We NEED more field space. At least that is the argument that has been made for years. Your solution to a field SPACE problem is to change the existing space at Wildcat/Mellon to artificial grass with removable pitching mounds and brown, painted baseball infields. While this will give you a slight amount of additional space, you will not be able to have more people practice at the same time. You are still limited by the field SPACE.
If you add in Robb Hollow and perhaps even a Junior field at the end of the Public Works, this actually addresses a field SPACE issue by adding field SPACE.
Now you can have more teams practicing all at the same time because you actually have more space. Your scheduling that you complain about gets less complex. You even have the chance to rest fields properly when the need arises.
Turf increases utilization of an existing field space but not without other ramifications and significant cost.
Adding just Robb Hollow at a lower cost than your turf place actually solves the problem of not having enough field space and at a significant savings to the municipal budget.
I'm not screaming at you. I'm just saying the main benefit of turf appears to be the reduced loss of "rain days" from 12 to maybe 6 (kids still won't practice in thunderstorms). For those 6 days saved, I am not willing to fork over the increased cost. Inconvenient to you and the YSA for those six days? Yes. But if the commission is to address this issue, Robb Hollow is the fiscally and most sound way to address it.
The idea that you and the YSA say you don't want more field space to address your field space issues just makes you look like you are whining. You say it would be one more improperly maintained field. However, you fail to mention that part of the Rec plan was to increase funding for proper maintenance of existing field space.
To most outsiders, all soccer moms, all baseball, and others that I have talked to, Robb Hollow is not just a good plan, its a slam dunk of a plan. Every single one of them that gets this plan even slightly detailed to them is actually excited about it. I really wish you would get on board and stop dividing this community the way you are.
You mention that people near the park will be upset by the loss of trees. I think that plan is still a work in progress but without question homes near a park will increase in value more than homes that back up to a gravel pit. Once the facts are explained I suspect your anecdotal evidence about these homeowners will shift in the opposite direction of your observations.
Mr Franklin,
I hope that your legacy will not be the instigator of a crippling debt that brought a great community to its knees.
Think of what our children can learn from an outdoor classroom and all of the beauty that it will bring to the immediate neighborhood and the community.
Dave is not whining...he is spot on in his observations.
Robb Hollow will cost more than turf and will not solve the issue.
By the way, all the kids you mention who are further ruining Wildcat by playing on it the day after those heavy rains...they pay no fees for any field maintenance.
Regardless of any turf, there will be a debt. The YSA plan will actually lower the cost.
"The YSA Plan will lower the debt"
Fuzzy math alert!
Ok, I have to ask.
What is the issue? Because this whole time I had been led to believe that there is a problem with field space...there isn't enough of it.
If you are now saying field space is NOT the issue, then I will email my Commissioner to stop all work on fields except to maintain what we already have.
If you don't understand how turfing Middle and Wildcat will significantly improve our field situation far more than just 6 rain dates, you have no understanding or appreciation of scheduling practices and games for kids in nursery school through 12th grade in Lebo. I think there's a reason that the YSA plan is supported by the Rec Dep, the AD, every youth sports Association, every high school coach, etc.
This is where you lose me. I reread the YSA plan that I posted here on June 25, 2012. They talk about the number of slots available. I think the presentation is out of date. Since then, the commissioners have allocated unassigned funds for field improvements.
John Grogan was quoted as saying, "As the school district’s athletic director, I see the daily need for additional and improved field space."
With the Robb Hollow plan and the field improvements from the unassigned funds, both needs have been met. But Franklin and friends are insatiable. That is why I threw my hands up in the air and said, "screw it." Build a parking lot, throw in some trails and call it a day. Franklin and friends are dividing the community. There is no agreement, no cooperation, no compromise. For this reason, do the minimum at Robb Hollow. Maybe YSA can put up a sign like my son designed for Pitcher Park. Future site of YSA Field. I can volunteer his services to design it. Singlehandedly, Dave, you can be blamed for delaying recreation improvements. You guys can't agree.
Elaine
I say additional fields...no turf at Wildcat/Middle.
Soccer mom for 12 years
No turf at Wildcat Middle fields! The area is too crazy now and field groups want to increase use. That's nuts. Wildcat Middle fields are the best fields in Lebo.
Let's start sports after fourth grade. We free up space we help scheduling, we have no bond issue, no taxpayer funded baby sitting, and no more whining. Hey, maybe then some folks can even afford the huge tax increase coming our way from the reassessment.
Have you forgotten about the reassessment?
John Ewing
Kelly should just pull the plan like the ysa is pulling everyone's chain.
Dave, Take the Balanced Brain Test and tell us how you do.
http://www.fridayslaws.com/test1.html
Kelly has wrapped a plan with a bow to the YSA and they gave her the bird. The YSA doesn't deserve the patience the Commissioner has given them.
Does the comment, "you can't grow grass in Robb Hollow" mean anything?? The Fraasch plan is at $1M and our own engineer told us we can't grow grass there. Isn't that reason enough to stop the plan that is supposed to improve our grass field inventory?
If we take out acres of trees behind Pinewood will houses slide over the hill?
Do the words "softball field" mean anything to you?
Yes, there used to be a perfectly good softball field there that had perfectly good grass.
What you say about the grass is completely untrue and made up.
Why don't you quote exactly what was said?
The engineer said grass would be hard to grow on the slop not the field...No problems with coal... this is doable...
Do you understand that the Robb Hollow plan helps you?
Turf almost $1,500,000.00-$1,600,000.00 with the added hard costs not included in the YSA proposal for Wildcat Middle field. $1,500,000 for one field not new space with no added benefits in the area for other members of the community.
Someone still hasn't answered...
Is the problem a lack of field space or not?
I suggested it was and the way to address a lack of field space was to add field space.
But one of the sports people corrected me and said that adding a field won't deal with the "issue".
Now I am confused about what the issue is.
@10:03
THANK YOU. Most of these posters are older and they have to read things a few times before they can comprehend.
7:56 AM, you can tell a person's age? Really? That is amazing. For those of us who can't, listen to the podcast as to what was really said. In fact, through a RTK, I read that the commissioners and engineer do that from time to time. If there is something that they are not sure of, they go to the podcast. Many people do that. Nice try.
Elaine
11:47
Yes, when you lose an argument, revert to scare tactics. You would have been a good Democrat spin artist after the Presidential debate.
Obviously everyone does not agree with the YSA plan and everyone does not agree with Commissioner Fraasch's plan. I amazed at the personal attacks on Dave F. He is trying to improve our community. Youth athletics are part of the community. Improved and increased athletic fields would be an asset to the community, as would improvements to our beautiful parks, swimming pool and library. There is common ground here where ALL benefit. No one is absolutely 100% correct or incorrect in this debate, myself included.
So now we can't grow grass up there and removing a few trees means the homes above the field are going to slide right down onto people playing soccer.
Think of the carnage! Those poor kids crushed by a landslide of homes! It'll be like the scene out of the Wizard of Oz, except Dorothy will be wearing a magic soccer cleat singing, "There is no place like Upper St. Clair where the grass is fake and I can play soccer when it rains!"
With the sports people simply LYING about what the plan on Robb Hollow would or would not do, it's time for Ms. Fraasch to walk away. Let these people fight the fight with the next commission and see where it leads. This commission has focused on field space for the entire year and it is beyond a joke that the sports people won't take a plan that improves their "plight" and at little cost to them.
Commission, move on. Move on to discussing pension obligations. Move on to discussing road construction and sidewalks. Move on to discussing how to pay for police and fire. Move on to dealing with how to fund the library and historical society and Outreach.
All of these issues are far more important to discuss than adding field space that the sports groups don't even want.
I was supportive of a plan to add field space, but now, after seeing the dishonesty (landslides? seriously? can't grow grass? seriously? residents above the field don't want it? all of that is untrue!) and lack of "skin in the game" from the sports groups, I'm completely agnostic about it. I don't care. The sports groups can fund their own field with private money.
That's the thing here sports guys and gals. There weren't too many people here arguing with you about adding the fields. In fact, most people were quite supportive of that idea despite the cost. But the stomping of the feet and pounding of the fist about how taxpayers need to fund a turfed field instead of adding a grass field to a park that needs an upgrade anyway has really turned me and others off.
I'm done debating field space. I suggest the commission be done as well.
And we are glad you are done 9:04, because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.
Ba Bye.
I don't see anything wrong with what 9:04 AM wrote. I am tired of it too, as are many.
Elaine
@9:38
One more post because 9:38 expresses the exact attitude that turned me off in the first place.
Rather than look internally and saying, "Crap, maybe I ought to think about ways not to lose people who might otherwise support an improvement for field sports", he flippantly dismisses the loss of someone like myself.
Thanks for proving my point.
Face it Elaine. Despite your delusions, your handful of disgruntled posters are not "many" and turf will become a reality.
So if you are tired of it, I suggest you post about some other malarkey.
I know. No credibility. Few followers. Thanks for reading.
Elaine
With the makeup of the current commission, you WILL NOT get turf at Wildcat and Middle.
It's that simple.
It is amazing how much acrimony one deadbeat boneheaded lawyer can cause in a community. He will do the fundraising if you pay him $$400,000 but he won’t get off his lard ass and raise funds for his own kids.
It really is too bad we have commissioners and managers who are too single minded to walk away from a really bad smell.
a few years back there was a porposal from the ysa to turf mellon with the help of the municipality. the ysa came up with 250K from a state rep if they had a shovel ready project. they had 100k form private corps and another 25k form the SD. Municipalty was asked to put in 500k, district would take responsiblity of facilty to maintain - rec dept would have been given time on field and ALL youth groups were going to increase fees at minimum $25/player to help defer costs, maintain and at some point replace. do the ysa mathe $25 x 2900 per year = !!!!!!! now multiply that times 5 years!!! as one parent said show me turf and we will pay! had this been done you would have no early morning practice for the freshman team, no one would have been concerned about turfing wc & middle everyone would be happy and ms frasch could build her field of dreams that can not be used for anyone over the age of 12 and only suits one or two sports. if anything rob hollow needs to become a walking trail for everyone to relax and enjoy. we have enough fields. we need another turf to accomodate all sports & all ages in the next 4 years bethel park will have 1 or 2 turfed fields, peters may have another and usc may look to do it again. are all those fine citizens not concerned with concussions, enviroment, taxes? i think not they are intelligent people who are looking at their comunity as a whole and thinking how they can entice people to move to their community, facilites and education are what bring people to a community. love you all but we need to get along. p.s irs is only concerned with what an organization takes and and sends out they could care less who they owe. lets go after the big culprits residents who don't pay the sd & municipal tax
David Franklin reminds me of the nasty old man we saw on the vice presidential debate last night. He just can’t shut up.
Good one 10:55.
I suggest you reread the first post. As of a few days ago, there was only "one" vote???
Joe must have been laughing at you last night.
I am sick of the badgering by the Franklin's around here too. Aren't there really more important issues that affect more people? Like the previous poster - pension obligations, public safety, road repair, economic sustainability here, economic development...and the list goes on. Every minute that these selfish sports enthusiasts continue to harp on the commissioners is one less minute they have to deal with everything else. Enough is enough, commissioners! Take control of this out of control situation! Table it once and for all and move on.
Elaine,
11:28 is the first to do name calling. I don't like the turf idea either but you can't let posters call people names.
I'd appreciate it if you took it down.
Elaine - if the comments written at 11:28am, were written about someone else, would you ahve allowed it to be posted?
Those comments are disgraceful and cowardly
Turf folks it has been said multiple times. Commissioners won't pay for the turf out of taxpayer money. Find the money and work on a location. This is as simple as it gets. By the way, USC School District pays for the turf. Bethel School District pays for the turf. The Municipality has HALF the budget the School District has. What seems fair here? Why aren't you harassing them? The fields at the School District are horrible!
We should have sympathy for Mr. Franklin because he is working so hard for the kids, but not Commissioner Fraasch because she is misguided? I don't get it. She has given a plan to this community to help all the kids not just sports kids and I have seen her slandered on many occasions by several on this blog sports and others. Is it because she's a woman?
Turf on Wildcat Middle would be a nightmare for parents, visitors and the neighborhood.
Don't turf Wildcate/Middle fields!
I have been very upset at the comments made about Mrs. Fraasch in recent games and sport affiliated activities. To the point I stopped going to association meetings. If I were her I would not put anymore time or energy into any of the fields projects and I am a sports parent.
Recently? How about since her coffee on St. Patrick's Day when Franklin and Chip were yelling at her?
Elaine
Who asked for sympathy for Dave F.? The request was to not post personal insults or to mention other people’s children.
I’m for turf. I reside in Commissioner Fraasch’s ward. I appreciate all the effort, time and thought she’s put into Robb Hollow. If we can’t turf a field, I’m all for Robb Hollow. Her efforts have been commendable and I’ve shared this sentiment with her. I will gladly vote for her again. Reasonable people disagreeing in a civil manner…… an easy concept
An email that was between an Association leader and Mrs. Fraasch back in the Spring paints a very different picture to all the sympathy towards the sports group. I received a forwarded email that the Association leader sent to Mrs. Fraasch and it would make anyone think twice about the ill mannered behavior. She handled it in such a professional manner. It was apparent that the leader wanted us all to be backing his agenda for turf but it showed most of us sympathy towards Mrs. Fraasch and that she is willing to negotiate if members of the YSA were even remotely civil. This has not be a civil discussion on behalf of the sports groups and I think it is really a shame for Lebo. No one that saw the email would blame her if she left the fields people without an improvement. Actually a bunch of us have supported her since the email was distributed.
You would save me from filing a RTK if you sent that email to me at EGIllen476@aol.com. I would not share the source. I would love to see it and post it. They are bullies, as far as I am concerned. To have one come to my door and lie to my face is ridiculous. Why make the effort, if it wasn't true. Franklin can never look me in the eye at meetings, let alone say hello like everyone else does.
Elaine
Elaine,
I would like to thank you and Commissioner Fraash for your efforts to improve Robb Hollow Park. An Outdoor Classroom would be a tremendous addition to our neighborhood and the community as a whole. I also think that we'd be teaching valuable scientific principles to the next generation. What a great idea Elaine!
How would Mr Franklin feel if we inscribe both a bike lane and a jogging lane on every street in VA Manor - and then we provide dedicated on-street parking on every street for all who want to make use of this cost effective recreational area? Then, we will give the VA Manor residents the bill for it!
This athletic area probably wouldn't be welcome in Franklin's neighborhood, but Franklin and the deadbeat athletic supporters don't mind doing this to other neighborhoods!
Whn you think about it, isn't that what Mr Franklin has advocated for other neighborhoods in Mt Lebanon?
Here's a Newsflash Mr. Kendrick...Wildcat already exists!!!
Thank you for not using the words "lard ass" when talking about Dave Franklin. It is perfectly acceptable for him to tarnish reputations, spread half truths, and commit other forms of character assassinations, but call him anything, people get defensive. I don't know who submitted the comment, but I have gotten complaints. Thanks for understanding, Folks.
Thanks for your support, John, but I don't want to discount the hundreds of hours that Kelly Fraasch put into this plan. She met with countless people over at Robb Hollow, spoke with many neighbors, professionals, and sports folks to come up with a comprehensive plan that would meet our needs. I trust Kelly and know that she makes all decisions wisely and with the community in mind. I get so frustrated with the Dave Franklins of the world who take a good idea and twist facts and then minimize anyone who disagrees with them. Here, she is coming up with a plan which meets the needs which were identified in the YSA plan, and it is still not good enough. Out of frustration, I suggested the Outdoor Classroom. I have no idea how many it would serve and don't want to step on anyone's toes. I always run the risk of being accused of hate for everything around and in my heart, having no credibility, etc., etc., but what does it take to satisfy these people? We have gone from buying Twin Hills, MCNeilly, turfing the high school, building a premier athletic wing at the high school, wanting to turf Mellon, to turfing Middle and Wildcat Fields. It is never enough! They are insatiable. I am pretty tired of it. And for that, I get character assassinations left and right.
Elaine
I have been reading these posts and find it interesting that we can complain and call names, but never come up with solutions. Here is mine:
We have made some very imprudent field/rec decisions over time. We are saddled with Twin Hills and McNeilly, along with the debt associated with these properties.
My suggestion is to see if we can swap one or both of these parcels for the Robb Hollow site. If so, we get out from under a unusable burden and gain a more centrally located site.
The compromise is that we pick up two fields and a green space, but we don't get turf. If you view this option from this perspective, it makes more sense.
Our commissioners should focus their energy on this possible swap, as it appears to be in the best interest if the community. If a swap is not possible, then we need to re-define what we can do with Twin Hills and McNeilly with respect to development like housing or something that can generate revenue for the community.
Why not build houses at Robb Hollow Park, Chuck?
Chuck, thanks for your suggestion. Actually, solutions have been offered, but if turf isn't a part of it, it "ain't" a solution.
Thanks for thinking outside the box. I am sure you will be shot down for that one too.
Elaine
12:28, did you know that the Teachers Union has tried for years to have the municipality transfer Bird Park to the School District so that the School District could sell Bird Park to developers? I remember attending a Mt Leb Republican Committee meeting many years ago when the teachers union mouthpiece in attendance (the union sent a talking head to every meeting) advocated using all of the proceeds of the sale as a bonus payable to the SD teachers.
We need natural parks with hiking trails where people can relax. We don't need more ball fields, and our community certainly does not need more overhead or debt.
Chuck has a nice suggestion, but I'd like to see something in Ward 5 that is distinguishing and a positive for the local neighborhoods.
We spend too much money in VA Manor. We let the residents of VA Manor dominate the conversations in the community - and if you doubt what I am saying, just read the pages of MtL Magazine an you'll notice the very lawyerly accent in every issue.
The community belongs to ALL of us! Enough!
The major premise of the field sports people is this: Although there are fewer kids in Mt. Lebanon than there were a decade or more ago, the number of kids playing a variety of field sports has increased, putting pressure on existing field usage. The issue is then confounded, as some sports supporters maintain the problem is defined by available space, while other sports supporters maintain the problem is defined by available time. For both factions the minor premise is that the community at large will benefit from whatever method is employed to solve either problem; i.e., local property values will increase because we have either a)more fields, or b)more usage of given fields. Unfortunately, neither faction brings proof of this assertion; only anecdotal evidence.
If the sports groups are sincerely interested in helping kids play field sports, and they truly believe that increased field space or time increases local property values, why is it necessary for the Mt. Lebanon Municipality to own the fields? What is wrong with purchasing land and developing your own field sports complex?; or offering a long term lease on a municipal field in exchange for making improvements to suit your needs?; or if neither option is feasible in Mt. Lebanon then why not seek similar options in a neighboring town (I doubt that football plays differently in Scott Township than it does in Mt. Lebanon)?
The answers to the preceding questions are obvious; the Mt. Lebanon sports groups just don't have the money for any of those options. And even if they did, it is much easier and cheaper to steal money from your neighbors via increased taxes to build and maintain your field of dreams than it is to bear the responsibility yourself.
Regardless of the perceived "community good" these sports groups advert, it is morally wrong to force someone else to pay for a sports benefit that primarily devolves upon less than 20% of Mt. Lebanon residents. We all should have the right to determine how philanthropic we wish to be, and to whom our philanthropy applies.
Chuck, I think that is what Kelly Fraasch is trying to do. If you go back to her presentation she refers to your idea without saying it directly.
Richard is correct!
How many proposals have there been to locate sports facilities in VA Manor?
How would the folks on Osage feel to have municipal debris dumped on vacant land or township property in VA Manor?
The problem is that VA Manor residents don't mind dumping municipal waste in Robb Hollow Park, or disrupting the peaceful enjoyment of others quiet neighborhoods with 1000 screaming kids and 500 minivans - see, in their minds that's okay because it's not in their neighborhood.
Keep Moertel's analysis in mind. The tax increase to pay for folks like Mr Franklin's athletic projects is very regressive. In other words, the bill goes to the rest of us.
It's a great deal for them. It's not in their backyard and we get the bill!
The question is whether or not the rest of us are going to stand for this crap!
Anon at 12:28--We could build on Robb Hollow, but you would still have two latent properties that bring no value to the community. We have enough of those already. Why not develop something that brings some value, especially if it replaces some that do not.
I understand that Mrs. Fraasch's plan alluded to this possibility. I just wanted to make it more visible and gauge the reaction.
The field space issue highlights two issues: 1) fewer kids and 2) more demands for field space because we have more groups. Take soccer as an example where we used to start kids in 4th grade. We now start them in kindergarten and also have a soccer group for the over 60 year-old group – so we need more fields for fewer kids because we have more groups scheduling time. If we reduced our high-school class size to 10 we would also need a bigger high school.
Also, when we built the two ice rinks, we built two because we didn’t want to have another pool problem where we had one group was taking all the available time. The second rink was intended for resident skating while hockey groups played on the big rink. Now the hockey parents want both rinks paid for at the expense of those they will prevent from using the second rink. That is just plain selfishness from inconsiderate neighbors.
Mount Lebanon doesn’t have enough space to build a larger tax base or more fields but that doesn’t stop the whining from parents. It also doesn’t stop the Commissioners from unrealistically looking at ML before spending $1,000,000 on recreational facilities or considering TIF’s and TRID’s that create blighted designated areas and a lower assessed value for public purposes in ML for the benefit of very few at the expense of the many. Picking pockets for the benefit of the selfish seems to be what government is about in our town no matter who sits in the elected offices.
The folks who built ML always tried to avoid picking single issue candidates but neither political party was able to run a full slate of candidates for school board in the last election and I have difficulty picking out commissioners who are committed to a balanced approach to meeting municipal needs.
When your roads start to crumble and your sidewalks continue to deteriorate from improper maintenance and the fields are not properly maintained we can all look back to the athletic boosters’ candidates who spent unwisely on their buddies and blame ourselves for electing athletic cronies to public office.
John Ewing
Well stated John!
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