 |
| Some of the protestors |
Comments to the protestors on the way in:
A Virginia Manor man actually told us he is better than us because he pays $8000 in taxes. (I would love to have gotten his address since he is clearly under assessed!)Jeannine Fleegle yelled at Dave Brumfield because he said the sterilization permit was rejected because they didn't specify the type of vehicle that would transport the deer.
2 men walking into the meeting said we weren't allowed to be there or have signs. Barbara told one of them it's our constitutional rights. He actually said "Bahhhhh you people and your Constitution!"
Matt Santoni on Twitter: (Listed with most recent Tweet at the top)
Jody Maddock tells #MtLebo commission he prefers at least a year of prep w landowners and training archers before a hunt. They seem shocked.
Matthew Santoni
Jody Maddock, organizer of managed archery hunts, talking about how to assemble properties to waive safety zones and allow hunting.
#MtLebo prez Bendel asks when sharpshooting usually occurs, how soon to apply - winter season, summer application
#MtLebo's Steve Silverman asks how early @PAGameComm usually issues archery deer permits: 60k tags in Co. should start selling shortly.
.@PAGameComm says there is no "rebound effect" after hunting deer; they're already healthy and breeding at full tilt.
Deer population counts now skipped as way of determining if there's a problem, @PAGameComm rep says. Hard to get and divides community.
.@PAGameComm's Jeannine Fleegel: "normal" no. of deer is whatever the community can tolerate. No "right" number for a community.
McGill: Upper St Clair tried archery in parks in '98 but couldn't meet goal of <100 deer crashes until sharpshooters started in '04.
McGill: #MtLebo did switch to deer-resistant plants in municipal gardens.
#MtLebo planner McGill: confirmed deer-vehicle crashes up to 54 last year, 9% of all crashes.
Deer not drawing a crowd in #MtLebo? Fewer than 50 people so far at discussion meeting where public was told it can't comment.
Update June 22, 2015 9:17 PM Following the Trib's Matt Santoni on Twitter:
- Est. cost of sterilization: $1K per doe w all paid professionals; $500/doe if vets & handlers volunteer, DeNicola tells #MtLebo
- DeNicola notes how hard, expensive sterilization gets on its own as fertile pop. declines. Says #MtLebo wd need to get 80% to reduce pop.
- Tony DeNicola of White Buffalo Inc talking about darting, surgically sterilizing deer w ovariectomies.
Update June 22, 2015 10:27 PM Kill! Kill! Kill!
- #MtLebo staff directed to make general plan for archery, incl comparison to sharpshooting & plan for survey. Could be ready by July 14 mtg.
- Now discussing bait. Illegal in most of Pa except for 5 cos or with a political subdivision permit from @PAGameComm.
- DeNicola says #MtLebo should 1st survey residents to see who would support archery program & offer land for hunting.
- #MtLebo commission asking staff to look at costs, "ramp-up" steps to start archery v sharpshooting program.
- #MtLebo commish Vuono asks whether police could be sharpshooters like in Fox Chapel, wonders if ppl would trust them more than contractors.
- #MtLebo commissioners now debating methods, surveys of residents over support, costs.
83 comments:
They (pro-violence) people want to survey residents to find out who would offer land for deer killing???
Am I reading/hearing this correctly?
It was bad enough to have bullets flying in our parks. Now, they are literally considering killing in our backyards?
THIS IS INSANITY.
Yes, you are reading it correctly. And in broad daylight.
Elaine
Now you know why I was calling it a sham? It was archery all along.
Elaine
I'm more than a bit concerned about my safety and the safety of my family if Mt. Lebo moves forward with this ill-conceived plan.
Elaine--- you had posted a quote from the one of the main deer killers on your blog. I could swear it said something like, with archery, 50% are missed shots.
Could you please post that again? (If I remember it correctly.) Thanks.
It is going to be on KDKA shortly.
The commissioners ignored what was discussed. They will not permit archers to kill when kids come out of school.
This is what happened back in 2006-2008. Shooting in people's yards.
Elaine
According to Trib reporter, Matthew Santoni, who attended tonight's deer-kill meeting, Commissioner Vuono asked if residents would trust the police, as opposed to hired thugs, to kill the deer--- like they do in Fox Chapel.
Ms. Vuono: please do some homework. Earn your seat on the commission. Here is something to think about:
Mt. Lebanon has 5,468 people per square mile: Fox Chapel has 690 people per square mile.
With Mt. Lebanon's high population density, it doesn't matter who is firing the bullets or arrows. Mt. Lebanon should not be considering any planned killing within its borders. Too many people live here. Period.
Wow. The killers will hold off with the bullets/arrows when the Mt. Lebanon schools dismiss kids at end of day.
How magnanimous of them.
I demand that the Mt. Lebanon commissioners and government staff immediately submit to psychiatric evaluations. Government sponsored deer killing in Mt. Lebanon is not a product of sound minds.
I live in Mt. Lebanon. I have followed this story to some degree. I apologize if this sounds ignorant, but what is the problem with the deer in Mt. Lebanon? Let's hold our fire until the commissioners define the problem.
What did Game Commission rep mean about "no rebound effect" in connection with deer killing? I am lost.
All these Commissioners received a comprehensive safe, humane, and non-lethal deer management plan from Sandy Baker on Thursday. I haven't heard one comment regarding this plan being discussed at this meeting. The only thing I've hear is basically the Commissioners telling staff to put together the details to compare a bow-hunting deer killing program to a high powered rifle bait-and-shot deer killing program, so that they can decide between which deer killing program to launch in the Fall. What a sham!
10:50 pm, as per your request.
Bow Hunting 50% + Wounding Rate
Bow hunting is not an effective deer management strategy. It is nothing more than recreational hunting. In addition, it's extremely inhumane. Twenty- two published scientific surveys and studies indicate that the average wounding rate for bow hunting is over 50 percent. More than one out of every two deer shot is never retrieved, but dies a slow tortuous death from blood loss and infection. These wounded deer will be dying in residents yards traumatizing families and their children, and running out into the roads causing accidents.
For example, "Preliminary Archery Survey Report" Montana Dept. of Fish Wildlife and Parks reports 51% wounding; "Archery Wounding Loss in Texas" Texas Parks and Wildlife Department (51% wounded); "Deer Hunting Retrieval Rates" Michigan Pittman-Robertson Report, Michigan Dept. of Natural Resources (58% wounded); "Effects of Compound Bow Use on Hunter Success and Crippling Rates in Iowa" Wildlife Society Bulletin (49% wounded); "Bow hunting for Deer in Vermont: Some Characteristics of the Hunters, the Hunt, and the Harvest" Vermont Fish and Game Department (63% wounded). The average wounding rate from all 22 reports is 55%.
More than one out of every two deer shot is never retrieved, but dies a slow tortuous death from blood loss and infection. These wounded deer will be dying in residents yards traumatizing families and their children, and running out into the roads causing accidents. In addition, bow hunters often mistake resident's dogs for deer.
Laura Simon, The Humane Society of the United States' wildlife biologist, writes, "Bow-hunting is undeniably inhumane and can incur crippling rates ranging from 40%-60% (Gregory 2005, Nixon et. al 2001, Moen 1989, Cada 1988, Boydston and Gore 1987, Langenau 1986, Gladfelter 1983, Stormer et. al, 1979, Downing 1971). In other words, on average, for every deer struck by an arrow, another may be crippled but not killed. The sight of wounded deer can be extremely traumatic for adults and children alike, and was one of the main reasons that a deer hunt on Fire Island in NY was called off and a immunocontraception-based program implemented instead."
Just noticed that John Hayes of the P-G penned another of his odd and heavily slanted "editorials" about tonight's deer kill meeting in Mt. Lebanon. Isn't he supposed to report the news? The editorial staff of the P-G, earlier this year, already condemned Mt. Lebanon's plan to kill deer within its boundaries. So, why does John Hayes continue to editorialize and, further, glorify killing in our community?
11:58 PM, Vuono said that it is more humane for the deer to die by arrows, than to be killed by a car.. The recreational archer expert said that if the goal is to reduce accidents by 50%, then we will not meet that goal. They didn't want to hear that. Silverman loves the idea because it is free. We could do it for many years. One of the experts said that the less deer available, the less interested archers. They didn't want to hear that. The reason for killing deer in private yards is because we don't have enough parks. They must go where the deer are. In our yards.
Elaine
12:17 am The Pa Game Commission is disputing the established scientifi research regarding the rebound effect. See overview and study regarding the rebound effect and compensatory reproduction below.
Why Killing Deer Doesn't Work
While it may seem counter intuitive, killing deer actually triggers an increase in deer reproduction and population. This phenomena is called compensatory reproduction and is a well documented population dynamic in deer and other mammals. When the deer herd density is temporarily reduced through hunting, culling, or trapping, there is reduced competition for food, and the number of twins and triplets born actually increases. Studies have show that after a hunt surviving females produced enough offspring to not only replace those killed, but enough to actually increase the size of the herd. This phenomenon explains why hunting as a management tool has resulted in an ever-increasing number of deer in this country. For example, a study conducted by the Dept of Wildlife and Range Sciences, School of Forest Resources and Conservation at the University of Florida sampled deer from five separate sites: three hunted and two nonhunted. The study found that the incidence of twins being born to a pregnant doe was higher on hunted land than on non hunted land. The study found the incidence of twinning was 38% on hunted sites and 14% on nonhunted sites. No twinning was observed among pregnant fawns or yearlings from nonhunted areas, whereas...18% of the pregnant yearlings and...33% of the pregnant fawns from hunted areas carried twins." (Reproductive Dynamics Among Disjunct White-tailed Deer Herds in Florida", Journal of Wildlife Management [1985]).
Laura Simon, The Humane Society of the United States's (HSUS) wildlife biologist writes: “One of the main problems with trying to manage deer through any kind of hunting or culling – as repeatedly cited during a Smithsonian Institute conference on Deer Overabundance (McShea et. al 1997) – is that deer are highly prolific, and their high reproductive rate can quickly compensate for declines in their population. They exhibit higher productivity (i.e. more twins and triplets are born, have higher survival rates, etc.) as their numbers lessen and more food becomes available for the remaining deer. In other words, they ‘bounce back’. ... We do not see any evidence that hunting or culling works over the long-term or is an answer for suburban deer conflicts.”
Killing deer is not a solution to a problem, but a commitment to a permanent problem.
Archery is free? I am afraid to ask--- who will be the archers? Mt. Lebanon residents?
I hope that local real estate agents are reading this. Nobody will want to move into Mt. Lebanon if arrows are flying among the back yards.
Thanks for the clarification. So, just because the community kills deer does not mean that the result will be fewer deer.
Then, why go through all this will taxpayers' dollars?
12:34 Thank you for that comment about the lack of success of bow hunting. So, that needs to be ruled out.
This is all just a bad dream, right? When I wake up tomorrow, surely the nightmare will be over.
12:48 am EXACTLY, it doesn't make any sense. Killing deer will not reduce deer-human conflicts. Killing some deer will not stop the remaining deer from eating the tulips. Killing deer will only temporarily reduce the deer population, but will trigger a significant rebound in the population the following year - based on scientific research. Killing deer will increase deer-car collisions. The killing is senseless, i.e. it will have absolutely no affect in reducing any deer-human conflicts, but will actually create more problems.
Then that leaves guns. Notice I didn't say sharpshooters. We didn't have sharpshooters in 2006-2008. We had biologists who weren't given drug tests and couldn't answer all ten questions about gun safety.
Bendel said never sharpshooting. Brumfield said never sharpshooting. Vuono wants anything that will kill deer. She has her house on the market and won't answer my emails if she is going to stay in Ward 3. Silverman wants whatever is free.
Elaine
Elaine - 12:54 am is a pro-cull troll. You should be able to recognize them by now. She wants to rule out bow hunting, because the lovely pro-kill ladies want a bait-and-shoot deer killing program. They don't want bow hunting, i.e. it doesn't kill enough deer for them. They want a deer slaughter in Mt. Lebanon. They want the AR-15 semi-automatic rifles brought back into our parks and back yards. They don't give a damn about safety. This is all about their friggin tulips. This small handful of soulless and hateful ladies are the worst I've ever seen.
"It's highly stressful because you always have to assume you're going to miss." Tony DeNicola, White Buffalo Inc., The Valley Independent Newspaper
Tracking the Blood Trail of Wounded Deer
Tracking of wounded deer and following a blood trail is difficult enough in the Pennsylvania State Game Lands with hundreds to thousands of acres of forest and woodlands, where the hunter has legal access to these large tracks of property to track and kill the deer. However, how are the hunters going to track and kill wounded deer in Mt. Lebanon and adjoining communities, when the vast majority of property is privately owned land, and it's illegal for the hunter to trespass on or use lethal weapons on this land? How can the hunter track the blood trail, and how can he kill the deer?
Effective tracking of wounded deer in Mt. Lebanon will be impossible. "Most deer can travel very fast when wounded. They can hit 35 mph [sound safe], and even if they die quickly after the shot, they can travel a long distance before collapsing. A wounded deer will not go far unless it is pushed. Therefore it’s always a good idea to sit still for at least a half-hour after the shot unless you want to make the tracking job a lot more difficult. ... Timing is very important. Tracking too soon is the No. 1 reason why mortally wounded deer travel long distances and make recovery difficult or impossible. Unless the animal drops within sight, no trail should be taken within 30 minutes. The deer you just shot will be looking at the spot where it was wounded to see what happened. It will bed down soon and try to lick or heal the wound, usually within the first 40 yards if there is good cover. Don’t turn a 40-yard trail into a 400-yard trail! Blood with green matter should dictate a minimum five-to-six-hour wait before tracking." ("After The Shot: Blood Tracking Whitetails" by Jerry Allen, 9/22/10)
I can just picture these bow hunters running and driving around on Mt. Lebanon's roads in their camo outfits with lethal weapons in hand, trying to track wounded deer from the roads. They can't trespass on a residents private property to track the blood trail or kill the deer. The wounded deer are not going to stay in these private resident hunting zones they are talking about establishing, or in residents back yards. There will be wounded deer running all over Mt. Lebanon.
OFFICER'S ERRANT SHOT AT DEER UPSETS RESIDENTS
The Buffalo News (Buffalo, NY)
Byline: Thomas J. Dolan - NEWS NORTHTOWNS BUREAU
Three days after an errant shot fired from a nearby woods struck their home, a young Amherst couple are still shaken by the thought of what could have happened.
Amherst police say that one of their officers -- a marksman who is taking part in the town's bait and shoot program to control deer -- fired the round and that the shot ricocheted before hitting the house.
But that's not good enough for residents of San Fernando Lane, where the bullet landed in the second-floor guest room of a young family's home.
"In my opinion they should not have been anywhere this close to a house," said a woman who lives in the house struck by the bullet. She agreed to an interview Monday on the condition that her name and address not be published.
"When it happens, your instinctive reaction is to be outraged. We felt that at the time and still do," she said.
At about 10:30 a.m. Friday, her husband was working in a first-floor room of the house and the couple's son was staying home from grade school because of illness, she said.
The bullet blew a baseball size hole in their upstairs guest room window and lodged in a picture on the wall.
Amherst police came to the house, and they were "extremely cooperative and extremely sensitive and sympathetic" about the incident, she said, but she added that nobody should be shooting a weapon that close to a house.
Police told her the officer involved was several hundred yards away in the woods, aiming down at a deer from a platform when the round struck something and was diverted toward the houses on San Fernando Lane.
Over the weekend, her husband took a walk into the woods and said it was "not that far." "If there's a chance of a fluke, they shouldn't be there," the woman said.
According to the town's online map system, the woods are located between Casey and North French roads, covering an area about 1,000 yards long and about 600 yards wide at the midpoint. The map also shows there are houses on three sides of the woods, the nearest of which are located about 300 yards or less from the center of the woods.
According to the woman, her neighbors are aware of the incident and they are "very interested in what's happening." As for her son, she said, it has been "difficult to explain" to him what happened.
Assistant Police Chief Ronald H. Hagleberger told Town Board members Monday that the bait and shoot program will remain suspended until the department concludes its noncriminal investigation of the incident in about three weeks.
Police were withholding the names of the officer who fired the round and the owners of the home that was struck.
"I don't want to have this unfortunate incident stop the program," Amherst Council Member William L. Kindel said, calling the incident "one in a million."
But Council Member Daniel J. Ward disagreed, saying the bait and shoot program is "an accident waiting to happen," because Amherst is not a rural community.
Program officials said they would continue nonlethal attempts to control deer herds during the suspension period.
ABC NEWS
Expectant Mom Recovering From Stray Hunting Bullet
Dec. 8, 2004
Loved ones of a pregnant woman injured in a shooting, apparently by a hunter's stray bullet, believe she is lucky to be alive, but they want new hunting regulations that will give greater protection to suburban homes and businesses.
Casey Burns, 18, remains hospitalized as she recovers from a gunshot wound to the head. She was shot while sitting in her car outside her North Whitehall Township, Pa., home on Nov. 30. Burns, who is seven months pregnant, was preparing to follow her fiancé to his mother's house at the time.
"When I looked through and saw the hole in the window, I opened the door and saw her bleeding," Robbie Katner, Burns' fiancé, told ABC News' "Good Morning America." "I took off my sweater and put it on her head to try and stop it [the bleeding] until the ambulance and everybody got there."
According to the International Hunter Education Association, hunters accidentally shoot more than 1,000 people in the United States and Canada every year. Authorities in Pennsylvania worry that more bystanders will be injured by hunters' stray bullets as more homes are built near wooded areas where hunting is common.
"We have had several incidents of people reporting that their houses have gotten struck by stray bullets," said Sgt. Andre Stevens of the Pennsylvania State Police.
Need for a New Common-Sense Hunting Law
Pennsylvania game laws require hunters to remain 150 yards away from occupied homes and businesses when they use firearms. However, Burns' relatives say lawmakers should consider requiring greater distances because bullets can travel farther than 150 yards.
"They [authorities] are telling us that it [the bullet that wounded Burns] came from the orchard nearby and these guns are actually capable of going anywhere from 800 yards to 1,000 yards," Allie Dickinson, Burns' mother, said on "Good Morning America." "To me, that seems like a common-sense thing, that if a gun [gunshot] can travel a mile, then you need at least a mile safety distance between the hunter and a person that's just an innocent bystander like my daughter."
Dickinson objects to suggestions that residents have to take extra precautions when they live near hunting areas.
"One of our state senators made the comment that we need to take extra precautions during hunting times," Dickinson said. "I'm sorry, but it is not my responsibility or my daughter's responsibility to take precautions when they [hunters] are hunting. This is our home. And what could she have done other than wear an entire bulletproof vest, bulletproof helmet and drive an armored car to prevent this from happening in her own home?"
Mother and Unborn Child Doing Well
Burns is recovering well, her family says, and her unborn baby is still healthy.
"The baby is doing very well," Katner said. "We couldn't ask for any more. As long as the baby is safe, and it is going to come out healthy like we originally planned, we will all be real [sic] happy."
Police have interviewed several hunters who were in the orchards near Burns' home at the time of the shooting but they still have not found the gunman. The Pennsylvania Game Commission is also investigating the shooting.
So what did Kelly Fraasch have to say at this meeting? Did she bring up Sandy Baker's report? Or is she now on board with these killing programs?
This is from the John Hayes article:
Jody Maddock, founder of the Whitetail Associates vetted archery group of eastern Pennsylvania, explained that property owners are protected from hunting liability by 1965 state legislation that was recently updated.
WPXI VIDEO REPORT:
FAMILY SAYS NEWBORN HIT BY STRAY HUNTER'S BULLET WILL BE BLIND
http://www.wpxi.com/news/news/local/aunt-baby-hit-hunters-stray-bullet-he-will-be-blin/nhYr8/
Pittsburgh - On Tuesday night, Channel 11 spoke with the great-aunt of a newborn baby hit by a hunter’s stray bullet in Indiana County.
Shayne Iverson was just 5 days old when he was hit by the bullet in his Saltsburg home as he was being cradled by his father.
“That was the worst phone call I ever got in my life,” said the baby’s great-aunt, Beth Sinclair.
Doctors said the bullet went through his head and came out his eye socket.
“He will be blind. His eye actually saved his life because the bullet hit that instead of his brain,” said Sinclair.
Shayne is in critical condition. He’s stable but will have a very long road ahead.
Matthew, thanks for your research efforts and writing fair and balanced articles.
The bait-and-shoot AND hunting accidents posted above are perfect examples of what can go wrong. A missed, ricochet, or misfired shot poses serious safety risks to all Mt. Lebanon families, children, and pets in this 2.20 mile area surrounding the killing areas. There are NO safe places to shoot rifles in a densely populated and developed community like Mt. Lebanon.
Matthew Santoni tweeted
McGill: #MtLebo did switch to deer-resistant plants in municipal gardens.
So McGill is saying that all the flowers and plants in Lebo's 30 public flower islands, and 22 public gardens are planted with deer-resistant flowers and plants. When did this happen? As I understand, when Sandy Baker was here a few weeks ago, they weren't.
Matthew Santoni tweeted
#MtLebo planner McGill: confirmed deer-vehicle crashes up to 54 last year, 9% of all crashes.
This 54 deer-vehicle crashes number that McGill is reporting are not the reportable deer-vehicle crashes that the Mt. Lebanon police and Allegheny County counts as deer-vehicle crashes. Mt. Lebanon reports car-deer collisions using the same criteria as Allegheny County. A reportable car-deer collision is one in which someone is injured or one or more vehicles cannot be driven from the scene. The Mt. Lebanon police reported (1) car-deer collision in 2011 (tracked since Sept.), (5) in 2012, (2) in 2013, and I believe (4) in 2014. This accounts for less than 2% of the car collisions with injuries in Mt. Lebanon.
The number that McGill is using is the other number that the police track, which are the dead deer that they believe might be related to car-deer collisions, i.e. dead deer found on the side of the road or in someone's yard. This is a subjective number. At last years Mt. Lebo Deer Forum, I believe Lt. Lauth reported 40 in 2012, 43 in 2013, and a total of 15 through August of 2014. Lt. Lauth said that these numbers have been very consistent since they started tracking them. So I guess McGill is saying that there were 54 of these events in 2014. This report is about as accurate as the deer incident report. I no longer believe these subjective numbers from the police department, i.e. the ex-Chief was one of the main architects of the deer killing program last year, and was trying to justify and promote it. I will only believe their figures in the future based on physical proof and with objective oversight.
So where was Kelly Fraasch, and what did she have to say?
Was Sandy Baker's comprehensive deer assessment and report discussed at last nights deer forum? They just received it last Wednesday, and in time for this discussion forum. If not, WHY wasn't it discussed?
I want to thank the protesters that made it out last night on short notice, and at a difficult time (5:30 pm) for most to make. Their protest statement was important to expose this deer forum SHAM, in which the Commissioners are trying to deceive Mt. Lebanon residents and once again sell them on their deer killing programs.
Kelly Fraasch asked the deer-kill panel a question. I forget the subject of the question. I don't know if she made any other comments or asked any more questions.
Wait. What? Jody Maddock is founder of Whitetail Associates? Why wasn't that listed on the agenda? It only showed "Jody Maddock, Director of Campus Services Bryn Athyn College."
Elaine
John Hayes' headline today: "Mt. Lebanon's deer management meeting sparks no protests." Seriously, John Hayes, when are you going to report the truth? See photo at the beginning of this post.
Elaine
Vuono's house on the market for $390K, assessed at $239,700, and bought for $250K in 2009. No appeals were filed, apparently. Nice to get a $4k/year or so tax break the last couple of years. Most newcomers weren't so lucky. I guess it's nice to be friendly with the commission so that they select the right appeals criteria to avoid putting your house and their houses on the appeals list.
I,for one, plan to get a doe tag and will be hunting in my property and my neighbors' properties (with permission of course) next Fall. I have the same rights to do as you have to complain about it.
Elane - right, why wasn't Jody Maddock's real position and reason for his attendance listed on the agenda. I'm sure just another intentional deception to make this panel look "objective", and not with a total deer kill agenda. The corruption, lack of transparency, and deception never seems to end. I guess they think that the residents either aren't paying attention or don't care, and they get away with it, so they might be right.
Why does the PG allow John Hayes get away with these blatant lies, and a total lack of journalistic credibility? He's an opinionated pro-hunting columnist. He's not an objective reporter. He shouldn't be allow to pose as a real reporter. BTW, I don't know of anyone who has seen him attend any of these Commission meetings that he reports on. Maybe that's why all of his articles are filled with inaccurate information. He obviously didn't attend last nights meeting if he didn't see the protesters. They were in front of the only door to get into the sham forum. When will the PG make him accountable?
I find it amazing that the commissionettes can always find another puppet to place on the Commission that will proactively lobby for senseless animal cruelty. And they always claim to love animals. Why do these women so easily sell their souls? What's the payoff for them? Is it to join this soulless group of mean and hateful old ladies? Why would anyone sell their soul to hang out with these horrible women? Am I missing something?
9:29 am You better not trespass on my property carrying a lethal weapon trying to track a wounded deer, i.e. I will assume this a lethal threat, and will take appropriate actions to protect my family.
9:29 AM, yep, that is what hunting is all about. Crack open a beer and rest it in your drink holder of your camp chair while the trusting does come to you.
Elaine
Get with it folks. Last night's meeting was not about whether to continue deer management, but how to proceed with deer management. Get it?
I've written this sooo many times... these mainly over 60 garden ladies are highly educated, most have worked outside the house their entire married life, have $$ thus they are used to getting what they WHAT....Steve Silverman is really a nice guy but when he gets phone calls from these highly influential women.. complaining about all the wildlife in their yards eating all their expensive plants... he would be stupid not to help them eliminate the hungry plant eaters in their yards...
Steve Silverman is not a nice guy. I am sure that he knows not to run again.
DeNicola gave a surprisingly pro-sterilization presentation. He told them they could do 100% sterilization, also told them they could cut costs by also having limited culling / bowhunting first, but then countered that by saying that culling and bowhunting in ML would be very hard to do. Commissioners did ask questions in relation to a 100% sterilization scenario. But it was all about money.
The PAGC idiot stated compensatory rebound didn't exist. DeNicola said it did but in herds that were unhealthy or diseased / not able to get enough food. He said that was not the case for the Lebo herd. So that smashes the 5 garden ladies argument about sick, diseased deer.
How much has Mt. Lebo spent on artificial turf? Do they know that nobody uses artificial turf anymore? It's been dead for years.
Today marks the 10th anniversary of the Supreme Court's Kelo v New London decision that redefined the Fifth Amendment's traditional "takings clause" from "public use" to "public benefit," and by so doing made every property owner in America subject to the whims of local governments. For those of you not familiar with this case read "The Kelo Debacle Turns 10" by Damon Root, senior editor of Reason magazine and Reason.com.
What, you may ask, does Kelo have to do with the subject of this thread? Plenty. Up until 2005 governments were permitted to seize private property (after "just compensation") only if it could be demonstrated that the seizure was for a "public use"; such as a road, a public school, a dam to control flooding, etc. But in the Kelo case the city of New London, Connecticut, argued that removing some nice but modest houses in Fort Trumbull, a working class neighborhood, so that a "comprehensive redevelopment plan" centered around pharmaceutical giant Pfizer's plans to expand its operations would be a "public benefit." The Supreme Court decided that it is perfectly legal for a government to take private property from one individual, and give it to another individual or company, on condition that the new owners make improvements that would result in higher tax revenues. The Supreme Court also sustained the argument that higher tax revenues equate to public benefits, even if those "benefits" are not a "use" in the traditional sense. In other words, the Supreme Court ruled that a public benefit IS a public use. The decision was 5 to 4 in favor of New London, and the opinions from the court, both pro and con, should be required reading in every high school class in America.
The Kelo decision caused an immediate outcry across America, with many states adopting, or strengthening, legislation to protect private property owners. However, SCOTUS (Supreme Court Of The United States) decisions are considered definitive, and even with state laws on the books protecting property owners there is nothing to prevent a local government from pursuing legal action against a property owner past any protections the state may have enacted. Writing the majority opinion, Justice John Paul Stevens invoked the principle of "judicial restraint"; a principle that says that in a contest between individual rights guaranteed in the U.S. Constitution and the rights of legislators to enact laws favorable to the "majority," the legislators must win. Of course the question then becomes, "What is a 'majority' and how does one determine it?" It is likely the majority of people who vote. After all, the ballot box is the only place were democracy is evident, since all governments in the United States are based on the republic principle.
Now we come to the ramifications of the Kelo decision. Local governments, emboldened by the fact that the law favors them, are relatively free to do as they please. If they decide to kill deer in a densely populated area, then they will kill deer. If the local government decides to come onto your private property to kill deer, and justifies it as a "public benefit" issue, then come onto your property they will - or at least they probably can, if they decide to press the issue in court. And what about other issues: If they decide to designate an area of the town as "historically significant" and require certain people living in that area to abide by special regulations, then the people living in that area will have to abide by those special regulations. And, at least in theory, if the local government decided to take your house and give it to another person, because the other person says he will expand it and thus create higher property taxes, they could do this too. Legit.
Richard--- Just to be clear, The Supremes did not eradicate "taking with just compensation?" Correct? (I know the arguments about "just" compensation. I am not going there with this comment). Thanks.
Are you saying that the municipality may only come onto your private property to kill deer if it wins a declaratory judgment action in court? What about if property owners consent?
Mt Lebanon Deer Workshop 6/22/15 Video is on youtube here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9EqNsoubwk
What was the attendance estimate at last night's deer forum? I think one of the reporters estimated 40 or 50. Out of 33,000+ residents only 40 or 50 attended the forum. I think that demonstrates how critically important this issue is in Mt. Lebanon, and why the Commissioner correctly designated deer management as one of their most important issues, and why they held this special meeting at the High School's Fine Arts Theater to discuss it. Of course, the residents who didn't want lethal weapons in their parks and neighborhoods were censored, and were not allowed to ask questions. The handful of residents who want AR-15 Semi-automatic rifles blasting away in our parks and backyards were well represented by our Commissioners - they didn't need to speak.
There are so few deer around lately. I don't think Mt. Lebanon residents (except for the five old garden ladies) are thinking about deer.
If the government decides to take your property under eminent domain they must pay "just compensation." In the Kelo case compensation was not the issue; it was whether a government could come in, take your property, and then give it to someone else. SCOTUS said yes, as long as the intent results in a public benefit (i.e., higher taxes). (By the way, until yesterday, if you were a raisin farmer in California, under a 1949 “Marketing Order Regulating the Handling of Raisins Produced from Grapes Grown in California,” the U.S. Department of Agriculture was permitted to demand a portion of each year’s raisin crop, free of charge. SCOTUS overturned the USDA in Horne v. Department of Agriculture.) Suzette Kelo and the other homeowners of the Fort Trumbull area of New London lost; but so did New London. Pfizer decided to pull out of the deal, and now the land is being used as a dump.
As to the municipality's deer culling agents coming onto private property to kill deer; the question is whether they could conceivably do this without the property owner's permission. While I doubt this will happen, the point is that it could (never say never) - especially if the municipality claims that the deer are a menace to public health, and the courts would likely side with the municipality in any subsequent suit brought by an aggrieved homeowner.
Look, my point in all of this is to adumbrate some relatively recent legal actions that explain, in part anyway, why local governments behave the way they do, and seem comfortable in flouting individual rights.
By the way, the man who reportedly told one of the protesters, "bahhhhh you people and your Constitution!" is expressing a common view in this town. The United States Constitution is an embarrassment to the local plutocracy; they see it as an out of date, old fashioned and totally irreverent document in our "digital age."
I wasn't there, but I have a feeling that was John Hayes who told the protesters that they weren't supposed to be there. Coincidently, the PG called today asking if I got my paper today, which is their way of saying, would you like to subscribe? When I told them that I don't subscribe anymore, they had a great special because they miss me and want me back. I said that as long as John Hayes is writing lies for the PG, I will never subscribe to the PG again.
Elaine
I am 25% done with watching the meeting. I can't wait till I get to the part where the Whitetail guy talks about how discreet his hunters are on the golf course. They dress like golfers and when no one is around, they kill deer!
Elaine
Practically speaking, Richard, if this municipality decided to kill deer on private property, the garden biddies would be dead before any shots would be fired. It would be tied up in court for a long time. Long enough for the biddies to die off.
I doubt that anyone in the Mt. Lebo municipal government has ever seen a copy of the US Constitution. You are right. It is not important to them.
You are joking, Elaine, right?
Does that mean that I can go to the municipal building in the morning dressed like Susan Morgans and order the commissioners to drop the deer topic and do some real work?
Would if the deer outsmart them and also show up dressed like golfers?
Elaine, 10:58 pm said, "I wasn't there, but I have a feeling that was John Hayes who told the protesters that they weren't supposed to be there."
Elaine, I don't think John Hayes attends any of the Mt. Lebanon meetings that he reports on. No one has ever seen him, or has been interviewed by him. How could he be the one harassing the protesters and then write the headline Mt. Lebanon's deer management meeting sparks no protests My guess is that the PIO spoon feeds him what to write, and he likely asked her if there were any protesters, and she didn't want him to write about the protesters, and so she said no, no protesters, which now makes the Post-Gazette look biased and incompetent, but she got the headline she wanted. Just my speculation. I don't know how else to account for such an inaccurate headline.
I completely agree with 1:28 AM.
!:28 AM, John Hayes had called one of the protesters days before the meeting. He also was on a radio show with one of the protesters during the winter killing.
It is such an inaccurate headline because he can get away with it. He wants to spin this story the same way our PIO does. He is one of Susan Morgan's clowns in her media circus.
I sure am glad I posted the photo of some of the protesters or else Susan would accuse me of lying again like she did when she was scolding Katie Green, editor of The Almanac.
Elaine
OK, where is the video of the deer killing discussion session? There is nothing on the municipal website.
Elaine
From the municipal website:
"The first of three special sessions where the Commission will review and refine its goals is Monday, June 22, at 6 p.m. at Mt. Lebanon High School Fine Arts Theater. The topic is deer management. Other sessions will be Monday, July 27, at 6 p.m. on pedestrian/vehicle safety (location to be announced) and on Saturday, August 8, at 8:30 a.m. on financial trends/public outreach (location to be announced). All meetings will be taped and webcast the following day."
They lie.
Elaine
Pretty pathetic that the August 8 meeting will be on public outreach.
Elaine
Elaine, there's an article in yesterday's Almanac on Monday's meeting, with a nice large picture of the protesters.
Mt. Lebanon commissioners hone deer strategy
http://www.thealmanac.net/article/20150623/NEWS/150629987
Thanks for the link, 1:35 AM. I hope 9:29 AM observes the 50 yard setbacks and gets permission from his neighbors surrounding his property when he plans to kill deer in his yard. The Almanac's David Singer reported:
“I would need a year to coordinate ... knock on doors, and find archers,” said Maddock, who pitched a selective volunteer program to use bows to take down deer on both public and private land. He explained he and others would have to knock on most doors in the municipality to get clearances from homeowners regarding 50-yard safety setbacks for archers."
Additionally, 9:29 AM's neighbors will have to get clearances from their neighbors on all sides of their properties when 9:29 kills their deer.
Elaine
Has anyone ever seen, talked to, or been interviewed by John Hayes, the Post-Gazette's pro-hunting columnist, face to face, at any of the Commission meetings that he writes about? His latest headline article, "Mt. Lebanon's deer management meeting sparks no protests", raises the question, does he attend any of the Commission meetings that he writes about. If not, then how does he get the info and details to report on the meeting?
Finally! The video has been uploaded on to the municipal website. http://mtlebanon.org/index.aspx?NID=2114
Two days late is better than nothing.
Elaine
I was one of the Protesters. I would say that we must have been under a Cloak of Invisibility if even a PG investigative reporter couldn't see us, but pictures don't lie! We were trying to be polite and respectful, especially given the change in venue, but we were heckled by the folks who object to us peacefully (and almost silently) protesting, nonetheless. I'm still stunned to know that some of the folks living in MY community are annoyed by MY Constitution and to hear that someone in Virginia Manor is paying as little as $8,000 it taxes (he should be careful WHO he says that to, since he is obviously SERIOUSLY under-assessed)! I was NOT surprised to see on display that our community has an odious problem with elitism, however. As I told the arrogant man who pays $8,000 in taxes and assures us that that makes him MUCH more important than the rest of us, it is precisely that elitist attitude that had us standing there with signs, in the first place. If Mt. Lebanon didn't have an over-abundance of folks (five by actual count) who have convinced themselves (and four of our Commissioners) that they are ENTITLED to have things their way, we wouldn't be living in this nightmare in the first place. And make no mistake: no part of this has a thing to do with motor vehicle safety! WE ARE ABOUT TO HAVE REDNECKS; POACHERS; DRIVE-BY YAHOOS; AND NEIGHBOR AGAINST NEIGHBOR TO AN EXTENT WE HAVE NEVER SEEN, BEFORE. AND ALL FOR FIVE PRETENTIOUS, CONCEITED, SELF-IMPORTANT GARDENERS. WHY, OH WHY DID THEY HAVE TO PICK MT. LEBANON TO SET TO THEIR LITTLE FIEFEDOMS?
6:16--Well said. Is there any chance that the five garden biddies will move? If they moved, peaceful people could begin to repair their community.
At some point in the not too distant future, Mt. Lebanon needs five new commissioners. The incumbents are inept and incompetent.
Anybody that thinks paying $8K and up taxes makes them superior, I scoff at! To me it puts them in the more money than brains category and is a fool.
I can own over 200 acres in Somerset County and still be below that figure and not have to put up with all the BS in this community...
In flipping the channels, I just noticed that the deer discussion meeting is being broadcast to the public. As I remember, the 2014 deer forum was not broadcast to the public, but was just placed on the deer mgt. website page. Maybe that's because Laura Simon, HSUS', wildlife biologist, who was on a the panel of 6 pro-kill to 1, did such a great job debating the issues, that she foiled their intentions of using the 2014 forum as a propaganda tool to get public buy-in, so they didn't broadcast it, and likely why she wasn't invited back for the 2015 forum.
As predicted, Sandy Baker's Deer Assessment and Recommendation Report is not posted on Mt. Lebanon's deer management website page. Just like The Humane Society of the United States' letters and recommendations, by Laura Simon, HSUS' Wildlife Biologist, to The Commission, were not posted to the deer management website page. Apparently, all non-lethal reports and recommendations are censored, and the Mt. Lebanon public is not given access to these reports and letters. How can the Commission and Administration get away with such blatant biased censorship?
Why doesn't Commissioner Kelly Fraasch demand that these reports and letters be posted on the deer management website page? How can she allow this censorship to go on unchallenged, i.e. I believe that these reports support her position.
I believe Elaine emailed Steve Feller , Mt. Lebo's manager, and demanded that the HSUS letters be posted for resident access and review. I don't know if she ever got a response.
I don't understand how Mt. Lebanon can get away with such blatant censorship.
4:41 AM, I forwarded your comment to the commissioners. I believe it will be ignored like all the other emails I sent to them. My commissioner's house is on the market. I have never gotten a commitment that my commissioner plans to stay in Ward 3. Perhaps that is why she is in such a hurry to start a killing program.
Also, I read an article in The Almanac, Mt. Lebanon Library gears up for Garden Party & Tour
"Tour goers will get the unique chance to visit one of the gardens featured on the first tour 25 years ago – the garden of Barbara and Robert Logan." Not so unique. Barbara Logan was on the Garden Tour three years ago. I hope she doesn't use this as an opportunity to promote deer killing. It certainly isn't about gardens, right Mrs. Logan?
I have never missed the Garden Tour. It is my favorite event in Mt. Lebanon. We have always supported Mt. Lebanon Library. When the London house was on the tour, Alan London recognized me and got on his soap box and started talking to visitors about how the deer must be killed. He has since moved. I hope Mrs. Logan doesn't get political and spoil this wonderful event. It is possible to love gardening and deer at the same time.
Elaine
Good news. My email was not ignored. I got a reply from Dave Brumfield. He explained that "Ms. Baker's report was only received the Thursday or Friday before the meeting. The commission has not had a regular meeting since then to receive and publish the report." Thanks, Dave, for responding.
Elaine
Elaine, did Dave give any excuse for why The Humane Society of the United States letters to the Commission opposing Mt. Lebanon's hunting, bait-and-shoot, and trap-and-kill programs, and their recommendations to address deer-human conflict weren't published?
No, but he and the rest of the commissioners can be reached at commission@mtlebanon.org. Wile you are at it, why don't you ask him his thoughts about Sandy Baker?
Elaine
Post a Comment