7:05 P.M.
3. Update Robb Hollow athletic field proposal:
a. Leaf collection options
b. McNeilly as site for leaf transfer
c. Robb Hollow preliminary engineering update
7:25 P.M.
4. Update on proposed bond issue. (Five minutes)
Twenty minutes are allotted for Robb Hollow, while five minutes have been set aside for the proposed bond issue.
On the agenda for the Commission Meeting scheduled for 8 PM,
JB 5. Introduction of an Ordinance (Bill No. 16-12) of Mt. Lebanon, Pennsylvania, authorizing General Obligation Bonds, Series of 2013 in the aggregate principal amount not to exceed $_____ for the purpose of financing certain recreation improvements.
The proposed Ordinance authorizes the borrowing of funds necessary to complete improvements at recreation facilities including _______________________. The proceeds of the issue will also be used to cover the costs of issuance.
Recommended Action JB 1. Introduce Ordinance (Bill No. 16-12).
DB 2. Set the public hearing for Tuesday November 13, 2012.
I sure hope that ALL the improvements are listed for recreation facilities before the commissioners vote on the bond. If not, this is how the proturf folks will get their way without having to pay a dime towards it.
I see that Kelly Fraasch updated her blog to include A compromise.
Update October 20, 2012 5:23 PM Response from Kelly Fraasch:
Sat, Oct 20, 2012 4:38 pm
Elaine,
Hi, I hope you are well.
To answer your question, I talked with Dave B. in mid-late August about the eco-friendly turf.
With consideration of raising money from user and extra time to plan details we found that a Phase II was appropriate.
We talked about this briefly at the next meeting and voted. The vote was 4-1 I believe.
Prior to that meeting, I believe Commissioner Brumfield made contact with all of his connections within YSA and shared his support of Robb Hollow and the details of the planning. Around that time, I made contacts with those that had helped me with the proposal and got everyone supporting the "Phase II". Dave was having a harder time. While Dave was working on YSA, I began reaching out to other groups that would benefit from the RH development to see their support (verbal and/or financial.)
I hope that clears up things for you!
Have a good weekend.
Kelly
On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 3:12 PM, egillen476@aol.com <egillen476@aol.com> wrote:
Hi Kelly,Someone wrote in on the blog asking if your compromise was ever presented to the YSA. I seem to remember it being discussed at a commission meeting.Elaine
35 comments:
TAKE IT!!!!!!
Sports groups stop being so stubborn and take it.
I want to have more fields and this is the way to do it.
Thank you Commissioner Fraasch finally some reason.
We can raise the money.
Soccer Mom
I think Kelly was willing to give up an awful lot to help the people in Ward 5 not deal with what might become the worst traffic/congestion nightmare in Mt. Lebanon with a turfed Wildcat/Middle field. She even offered the sports guys eco-friendly turf at Robb Hollow if they would pay it seems like.
Somehow it still wasn't good enough for them.
I am a bit sick to my stomach. Bullies like Dave Franklin and Dave Brumfield (soon to add John Bendel) get their way.
I still don't know if they have four votes for a bond but we'll see.
Dave Brumfield is a straight out liar though. He said he would take a full sized field somewhere else. It's on tape. He let big bully Dave Franklin push him and John Bendel around. They are not even considering the ramification of putting turf at one of the busiest locations in Mt. Lebanon. I can't wait to see the REMOVABLE Pitching mounds and brown painted infields.
Hopefully Kelly and Matt can figure something else to stop a boondoggle of a project perpetrated by a few puppet masters.
Ridiculous.
Fraasch opposed turf at Robb Hollow. You don't even know what you're talking about. Want to see the brown turf? Go to just about any field in a surrounding community.
Sorry, 9:19 PM, but you don't know what you are talking about . Did you read Kelly's post, "A compromise"?
I guess you wouldn't call it a compromise unless the plan included turf at the taxpayers' expense.
Elaine
Um, read Fraasch's blog post you idiot.
I call you an idiot because you apparently didn't check the linked blog post before you posted your idiotic comment.
Her blog post specifically offers the turf but the sports groups would have to fund some of it (although I don't think her post has the breakdown).
Because you are such and idiot, I have no confidence in your ability to click a simple hyperlink so I will copy and paste that section of her post on her own website that outlines the Compromise (you know, the part where she moved toward your position of having turf):
We have found an alternative for the health concerns and environmental effects and
with the users commitment to pay for the turf installation, product, warranty
and part of the maintenance (because turf maintenance will be more than our
grass fields) we can see this project move forward.
That project moving forward would have been referring to eco-friendly turf at Robb Hollow. So yes, basically EVERYTHING the sports groups wanted. More field space, and even more, a fake grass field space.
Her compromise was apparently to give in to the turf idea but to keep it off of Cedar since the neighbors in the ward already spoke up about how much the existing field space impacts their homes.
And yet, you can see for yourself, either Dave Franklin and Dave Brumfield didn't tell the rest of their friends that this offer existed or the rest of their friends can't read. They are jocks after all. We already know they won't compromise with a woman.
9:48 PM, you nailed it. We're dealing with a bunch of misogynists. Look it up in the dictionary, guys.
Elaine
She flippin offered you turf and you won't take it!!!!!!!! What the hell are you sports people doing? YSA you are all a joke!!!
-coach
I looked up the Eco-friendly turf it lasts more than twice as long as the crap stuff YSA offered. Kelly Fraasch did her homework and these boys blew her off because they couldn't listen to someone "that's misguided!" Looks like the sports people were misguided. Did Kelly Fraasch offer this a couple of months ago but just as a second step. Stupid, stupid boys.
YSA you messed this up!!!!!
Brumfield you messed this up even more!!!!!!!!!!
I just don't get it. Now I have to start to think that one of the sports guys has some kind of money in this. That is the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise, how can any of this make sense?
Hmm! so now we have a proposal of a fundraiser by the deadbeat athletic supporters to compete with the District's fundraiser. I will have to think long and hard about which one I want to support. Call me in six years.
We want what we want and
We want it now.
We say we will raise funds
But we don't know how.
Before everyone blames the YSA, will someone please ask Kelly if the offer on her blog was ever presented to YSA? I'm inclined to believe its never been made known to the YSA since it only showed up on her blog yesterday. Seems like she's scrambling.
I think Kelly is trying very hard, harder than anyone else in this community including elected and appointed public officials and a few spoiled, intransigent youth sports parents, to reach a compromise solution on athletic fields. The YSA does not represent the views of all sports organizations or memberships, field or otherwise. And certainly does not represent the beliefs, desires and values of the residents of Mt. Lebanon.
The YSA has fully demonstrated in the past six months that it is a deadbeat organization, has zero credibility and cannot be trusted.
I sent an email to Kelly and asked her about this. Until then, I remember it being discussed at a commission meeting.
The August 27 commission meeting minutes show:
mtlebanon.org/archives/31/Minutes-08-27-12.pdf
"Ms. Linfante moved and Mr. Bendel seconded to authorize the Municipal Manager to secure proposals and retain a financial advisor and bond counsel for a $5.5 million recreation bond issue and begin the process to create an ad hoc committee to raise funds to install an eco-friendly turf field on an athletic field in Mt. Lebanon. The vote was called. Mr. Bendel, Ms. Fraasch, Ms. Linfante and Mr. Brumfield voted in favor of the motion. Mr. Kluck voted against the motion. The motion passed four to one."
That was the meeting where Dave Brumfield made an announcement for Dave Franklin. It is in the minutes and the podcast.
What Kelly wrote on her blog was discussed at the August 27 meeting. Is that scrambling?
Elaine
so the whole idea was set up behind closed doors, just like the school board's antics. this stinks. the deadbeats strike again for $5.5 million in debt. Whoever called Franklin a lard ass was right.
I also found this: http://mtlebanon.org/archives/61/PAB%20Minutes%20Sept%204,%202012-%20Approved.pdf
"Donnellan reported that the Commission also approved beginning the process to borrow up to $5.5 million for recreation improvements, and to begin the process to create an ad hoc committee to raise funds to install an eco-friendly turf field on an athletic field in Mt. Lebanon."
Dave Franklin was at the Parks Advisory meeting with Kelly.
Oh I forgot. Dave Franklin is not with YSA. He is just in bed with the YSA president.
Elaine
I just published portions of two public meetings. How was this behind closed doors? I was at one of the meetings. I don't go to all the meetings. Maybe someone from the Parks Advisory can start recording the meetings. How about you, Dave Franklin?
Elaine
I should have read further on the Parks Advisory meeting minutes.
"VII. Process for Park Upgrades (Kelly Fraasch)
A process whereby a minimum amount of private fundraising would be required before a park project was recommended was discussed. The consensus was that the Parks Advisory Board has recognized private fundraising when prioritizing projects, but will continue to look at all factors including existing conditions, availability of funds and level of interest in the project from the neighborhood."
Dave Franklin was there when Kelly brought up fundraising!
Elaine
You're right Elaine I was there. The discussion that you are referencing was about neighborhood parks like Highland Terrace, Church Place, Iroqouis, etc where local residents were requesting upgrades, new playground equipment, etc. It was timely because residents near Highland Terrace had contributed to their park, whereas other neighborhoods had not. It had nothing to do with converting Robb Hollow to a field, let alone a turf field. Frankly, the PAB never was asked to evaluate the Fraasch plan to convert that park to a field.
As for the eco-friendly turf option, I'm relatively certain that this was included in the resolution at the request of John Bendel, not Kelly Fraasch. Regardless, it was not included as an option for turfing Robb Hollow, but instead would have been a separate project at a different location following the creation of the ad hoc committee, etc.
I'm sure Kelly will confirm all of this in her email response to you, or feel free to contact any other member of the Commission, the PAB or Dave Donnellan.
Dave Franklin
I heard back from Kelly and posted her email as an update.
Elaine
I just called Kelly and she told me that there was some discussion in late August. There was a possibility for a third field site at Robb Hollow and if the users would fund an ecofriendly turf, Kelly would have agreed.
Elaine
So this is or was an offer for the YSA to turf a full sized field at Robb Hollow. Is there any question about this?
YSA would raise private funds and the municipality would chip in for some of the basics...
This is where you lose their attention. "YSA would raise private funds."
Elaine
Sounds like the sports people got a better plan somewhere else or they are going to try and manipulate things to get the turf for free.
My head is about to explode! We asked for more field space. We got it. We got turf. What's the problem?
The sad part about this whole issue is that the sports people have been publicly critical of Commissioner Fraasch and without reason it appears. Maybe they were too busy bouncing heads with each other to notice who was helping them on the Commission. I think Commissioner Fraasch's plan made sense for the whole community. My wife and I will never use a turf field at Wildcat. Our children are in different sports so they won't use it either. We would have used Robb Hollow (not the field) but the trails. We are always looking for a place to walk. It would be really nice for the WHOLE community and take away the eye sore of the Public Works area.
This bond issue was a done deal back in August
Kelly cannot be trusted to be honest with taxpayers.
8:18, please share your reasoning because I couldn't disagree with you more.
Ouch, I am glad that Commissioner Fraasch pays no mind to meaningless and empty gabs when she is working for the community. Every proposal I have seen from Commissioner Fraasch pays mind a to a budget and financial impact. Commissioner Fraasch appears to be one of the more conservative financially minded members of the Commission. Were you sleeping and meant to say Raja?
I'm totally lost. So the YSA asked for turf. There was a big brouhaha about it. Fraasch decided to serve up a counterproposal that included all rec issues and suggested using Robb hollow. All I read on this blog was how four votes were needed and Fraasch wasn't one of them (nor was Kluck) so the turf idea was dead. Now I'm reading the turf is a done deal. Need clarification.
Raja is only concerned about one person - Raja!
3:23 PM, yes it is very confusing. Yes, you are right. The bond for turf requires four votes. They don't have four votes if the bond will be used for turf. Tonight, John Bendel will introduce an ordinance, Bill No. 16-12. The public hearing for this ordinance is set for November 13, 2012. However, I see a lot of blank spaces on the agenda. I hope tonight's meeting will fill in the blanks. If the improvements are not specific enough, turf can be slipped in, as I see it.
The athletic supporters claim it is a done deal. They say they re getting their turf. Bendel, Linfante, and Brumfield want turf. I think it is strange that an environmentalist such as Linfante would want turf, but I guess I just don't understand. We'll know more tonight, I hope.
Elaine
The idea is that Fraasch as Ward 5 commissioner did her research on turfing Wildcat and Middle Fields, both of which are in her ward. She did research on fake turf and was concerned with many issues including heat days, environmental impacts and cost. And also, there were most of the residents across from the current facility that spoke at the microphone in public against astroturf because of the impact it would have on them. They are already upset about how much use those fields get and they feel it would become even more of a traffic/pedestrian/parking nightmare than it is now if they added more users to the same space.
Dave Franklin and Dave Brumfields plan does NOT address these issues. Money for paving the dirt parking lot at the end of Wildcat field won't add enough spaces and any spaces added at the entrance to main park would most likely be used by the Rec Center (which has a parking issue of its own due to hockey/swimming pool/high school/park use).
Given these issues at Middle/Wildcat and the underuse of Robb Hollow (and I say underuse because it was only used for grinding leaves which can't be done there anymore) Kelly was the first commissioner who asked what they could do with Robb Hollow. Lo and Behold, Robb Hollow used to be home to a softball field and it turned out it would be relatively easy, especially compared to what it would take at McNeilly, to turn Robb Hollow into a usable space with a full sized field.
It seems at some point Mrs. Fraasch inquired as to what we could do with McNeilly if we developed Robb Hollow and there are rumors circulating that if Robb Hollow were developed that we could actually swap the unusable land at McNeilly and replace it with the field space at Robb Hollow. Then we could sell/develop/or nature-state the McNeilly property and not invest more than a few dimes in it.
Finally the municipality could be out from underneath the unusable space that the sports groups demanded the commission buy for development a number of years back. The sports groups never came up with the promised private funds and the development never happened.
Now, it appears that Kelly, per John Bendel's recommendation, has agreed to investigate the Eco-turf idea because it doesn't have the same environmental and heat issues as traditional astroturf. It does cost more but that is the compromise. The sports groups would fund turf but only at Robb Hollow (thereby keeping the residents in her ward happy), and the sports groups would have their nice new turf field that is partially paid by taxpayers funds (but only to the degree that the McNeilly swap could be done) and partially paid by private donors.
Now the Sports Guys have a choice to make. They can turf Robb Hollow and end up with both MORE field space AND a turf field. Or they can bang their head against a wall and demand pissing off residents in Ward 5 and try to get their turf with NO additional field space at Wildcat/Middle.
Mrs. Fraasch went more than far enough to reach this compromise which apparently Dave Brumfield and Dave Franklin have decided not to share with their sports groups.
I've obviously followed closely and spoken many times with Mrs. Fraasch personally as well as my nieghbors. I am a resident near Middle/Wildcat and I don't want turf there. I, for one, am extremely happy to have Kelly as my commissioner and am very happy to see Robb Hollow become something other than what it is today- an unusable pit.
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